you draw your weapon, they run away...

[Omni04]

Ok this is my first thread in this section. ;D


now lets say you are walking and carrying concealed. All of a sudden, there are 3 BG's. Maybe wanted to rob you maybe wanting to rape you... whatever you feel like. They start walking toward you so you start backing away (they are far enough away where escape is possible but still outrunning these 3 is unlikely), eventually this escalates to the point where you need to draw your firearm. As you do so the BGs have a faint of heart, turn around, and leave.

Now what do you do from here. Do you holster your weapon, and continue with your day? or do you call the police so you can tell them what happened? If you don't you may run the risk of some near sighted witness (or the BGs themselves) calling the police saying you assaulted them.

and im sure a lot of you will switch the scenario and say i wouldn't of backed away, i would of just whipped out my gun. The real question i have is what you do AFTER the threat is stabalized with no shots fired. You did nothing illegal but then again calling the police seems like the right thing to do because they were assaulting you.

So any ideas?

thank you!

[El Tejon]

You did nothing illegal? Well, it depends. :D

Two boxes on the police report--victim and perp. Which do you want to be in? The first one to call the police gets to be the victim.

You must suppress your inner Walter Mitty and Mall Ninja, call the cops. Besides, they may attack someone else.

[Sean Smith]

Besides, they may attack someone else.

Bingo. Call the cops, if for no other reason than the above.

[Jeff White]

Call the police....chances are they are running for a phone to call about the crazed gunman who accosted them. Better to have the police looking for them instead of you.

Jeff

[centac]

Call the police because it is the Right Thing to do, you may prevent these mutts from harming someone else down the road.

Is it possible that this concern that they may call first is a bit over-blown? I have never heard of it actually happening in a street crime scenario. You see similar kinds of antics in domestic disputes and neighbor squabbles, but to have some street hood deliberately call The Man to try to turn the tables seems somewhat far-fetched. I'd be interested in hearing of actual cases where it occured and how it was resolved. Frankly, if I roll up and Billy Buckethead tries to tell me that the paunchy middle-age dude who has a ccw permit tried to rob him at gunpoint, well, we JBTs may not be the smartest cookies but that wont fly far.

[SLCDave]

All of a sudden, there are 3 BG's. Maybe wanted to rob you maybe wanting to rape you... whatever you feel like.

:uhoh: Is this a trick question? I don't feel like getting robbed OR raped! :uhoh:

[gigmike]

You call the cops. There's always the possibility they'll come back at you.

[MikeIsaj]

After they run away;

1. Keep the weapon on them until you are no longer in immediate danger. That in my mind would be when they are at least 25 feet away. That's about the distance they could cover before you draw if they change their minds.

2. Get the hell out of there now! Move somewhere, anywhere, preferably to a known safer location but move away fast.

3. Call the cops. As others have said it is the right, and responsible thing to do. This brings up another point. I hear people say "I didn't call the cops because I figured they weren't going to catch them." Solving crimes and catching BGs is usually done by putting together a puzzle without all the pieces. The more pieces you have, the more likely you are to be able to tell what the picture is. And you don't know what the cops know. They may have a real good idea who these birds are.

4. Call your lawyer. You just never know where these things may go. Also, as soon as you are able, write your own incident report while events are still fresh in your mind. This will come in handy in any follow up investigation. It will enhance your credibility if you later disagree with the officers report or any witness testimony.

[neoncowboy]

I'm outta there by the fastest route.

I wouldn't call the cops unless I absolutely had to. Why? What if the 3 of them just called the cops and told a story about how I threatened them with a gun and screamed racial slurs at them? They are telling a corroborated version of the story and I'm the only one telling my side...too much potential for being charged with whatever arbitrary crime the cop decides to charge me with.

[Ex-MA Hole]

and im sure a lot of you will switch the scenario and say i wouldn't of backed away, i would of just whipped out my gun.

In my book, that's what I'd do. A gun is my LAST resort to stop the threat. I DO NOT EVER, repeat EVER, want to have to shoot someone to save my life. EVER.

I am, and ESPECIALLY with a gun, a complete wimp. This is the choice that I have made by being a gun owner. I am non confrontational. I will run away from anything. I have nothing to prove, and do not want to be in a situation where I need to protect my life, but I will if needed.

And yes, I would call the police ASAP.

[Preacherman]

There's a major legal issue here. You're only supposed to exercise lethal force if you're in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury. If you draw your gun, by definition you are in the process of exercising lethal force - even if you never fire a shot. Now, if the BG's run away, you have exercised lethal force, but have not been injured or killed - so if they make a false call, reporting you as having brandished a weapon at them, you're in deep doo-doo. The only - repeat, the ONLY - safe way to handle this is to call it in yourself, reporting exactly what went down, why you drew your weapon, etc. That way, the cops have your story down, and if someone tries to make a false report, you've covered yourself as best you can.

BTW, this is why you should never carry a gun without carrying a cellphone as well. That way, you can immediately report an incident, without having to hunt for a payphone, or go home. If you don't call first, you're automatically more suspect (in the eyes of the cops) than the other guy.

[Lonnie Wilson]

A cellphone should be in every gun carriers pocket for this reason alone.

[buzzcut]

I would call them to add my contribution to the crime statistics database (besides the aforementioned better reasons).

This way, the popular news media can do yet another story on the positive effects that firearms in the hands of responsible citizens have on society as a whole. :rolleyes:

[R.H. Lee]

Now what do you do from here. Do you holster your weapon, and continue with your day? That would be my choice. But then, I'm not contractually bound by a CCW permit agreement.

[Omni04]

centac: 2 things, first of all, an eye witness who may of caught you pulling out the gun and the 3 guys running away could of phoned the cops first and gave a BS story (well the truth to them)

the other thing is im 19 ;) chances are if anybody did confront me they would be around my age!


*edit What about look around for a witness? After you call the police you may try to grab somebody who saw the event to give their report as well.

[sfhogman]

In his book, "In the Gravest Extreme," Massad Ayoob mentions something very like this happening to him in a parking garage. After the BG's split, Ayoob split too, not wanting to have to deal with the police afterward. The book, and his account of the incident, are well worth reading.

Best,
Jeff

[38SnubFan]

I would ALWAYS contact the police after drawing a weapon. Not only do they get my side of the story; if I have a good description and direction of travel, and police have been looking for these guys, I just helped their situation. That, and yeah, I'm not going to deal with the BGs calling before me and saying I threatened them with a gun (and yeah, they WILL DO THAT!).

As for the cell phone thing: It's ALWAYS with me, whether or not I'm carrying a gun.

-38SnubFan

[Elmer]

In his book, "In the Gravest Extreme," Massad Ayoob mentions something very like this happening to him in a parking garage. After the BG's split, Ayoob split too, not wanting to have to deal with the police afterward. The book, and his account of the incident, are well worth reading.

Best,
Jeff

Yet another reason not to buy or read anything from this wannabe.

Take the sound advice given several times in this thread, call the PD. If someone ID's you, and you just split, you will be the "BG"......

[Powderman]

Good advice above. A summarization, drawing from the points made above:

1. Keep the BG's covered until they depart the area.
2. Remember the +1 rule--always scan for the ones you don't see at first.
3. Re-secure your firearm.
4. Call the police. Do it as quick as possible. Afterward, GO TO THE NEAREST POLICE STATION.
5. Last but definitely not least, I would not worry about the BG's calling in. Even if they do, the officer(s) taking the report will take a number of things into consideration. These are:

a. The person making the report. You are a person with a CCW permit, who has had a background check already done. You are a regular Joe or Jane, and quite possibly are known in your community.

b. What also is taken into consideration is the fact that YOU are the one standing in the police station. If the BG makes a bogus complaint, it will more than likely be over the phone. Also, it's my experience that good guys and girls do NOT routinely do strong-arms for a living.

Be aware that when you make your complaint, the first thing that is done, EVEN WHILE YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, is that the dispatcher will ask for your last name, first name, middle initial and date of birth. Guess what? The po-po will know that you are clear and current within 20 seconds of you making the phone call. You coming to the station simply emphasizes that you have nothing to hide.

If the BG decides to make a complaint, chances are good that this complaint will be made anonymously. So, guess how much credibility will be given to their report? Not too doggoned much, I guarantee.

An added bonus is that the data for the report will be entered into the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, and also NIBRS as a defensive legal use of a firearm. :) Score one for the good guys!

[sfhogman]

Well said, Powderman.
Though I don't agree with (or necessarily believe) all of what Ayoob says, I do think he's worth reading.

Best,
Jeff

[ny32182]

A well respected member on SigForum was in this EXACT situation. IIRC, he was confronted by a man with a knife in a parking lot. He placed his hand on his weapon, but did not draw. BG left, and called the cops. GG went home. Police showed up at GG's residence and (I think) arrested him. I believe he is still in ongoing legal trouble, and they might have pulled the thread from SigForum. It was in the CCW section.

Always, always, ALWAYS call the cops if you use a weapon to defend yourself. This guy didn't, and it is costing him lots and lots of time and money to get his case straightened out.

[Zundfolge]

I don't ever intend to threaten or bluff someone with my gun.

If I feel I am justified in drawing my weapon, its because I'm justified in firing it to. I've trained to draw and fire the first shot (or two) from retention then transition to isosceles and continue firing until there is no more threat.

I'm not going to wait for them to decide to run away, or decide to draw their own gun or try to take my gun from me so I doubt all of them would get the chance to run away (although with 3 guys I'd probably drop the closest one and that would give the others a chance to change their minds and turn to run away ... butI'm definitely going to have to call the police whether I shoot one or all three).


I'm not sure about here in Colorado, but in some states I do believe that one of the conditions on a CHL is that you are required to contact the police if you ever find themselves in a situation where you have to draw your weapon.

[jmcc11]

I believe it would be a good idea to call the police. Even if the attackers don't call the police a bystander might. A Soccer Mom may be walking or driving by and see you pointing a gun at your attackers. She gets on her cell phone and reports a "maniac threatening people with a gun" and then gives your description. To me it's not worth losing my CCW over.

[Elmer]

Well said, Powderman.
Though I don't agree with (or necessarily believe) all of what Ayoob says, I do think he's worth reading.

Best,
Jeff

Ayoob writes in a very dramatic style that is quite captivating. It's when he's mistaken for an expert that he becomes dangerous.....

[GRB]

...but to have some street hood deliberately call The Man to try to turn the tables seems somewhat far-fetched. I'd be interested in hearing of actual cases where it occured and how it was resolved. Aaah yes I remember such an incident quite well. It was not exactly the same as the present scenario because I did not back off, instead I shot. One of the bad guys was hit, and both took off. They checked the wounded guy into a hospital and they called the police. They told the police a crazy white guy had walked up to them in their neighborhood (miles from the actual shooting site). They sai the crazy white guy pulled out a gun and just started shooting at them as he spouted racial slurs at them (egads, I guess they meant me).

I was pretty lucky that Ihad already reported the shooting. I did that by screaming my head off for someone to call 911 and then tell them 10-13 (NYPD officer needs assistance code). I also was lucky these two guys had earlier robbed someone else. Now had I waited to call the police, lets say until I got home and they had reported the incident first, what would have happened. I don't know and do not care to know but it likely would have been rough on me especially because they had witnesses to the shooting. Those witnesses said it went the way they had described it. Of course they were lying and this was later found to be the case. Because I had gotten it called in right away, I also had witnesses. Yet had I not called in right away - had I left the area, so too maybe would have the witnesses. Not good at all then if I would have called in after I got home which would have been about 20 minutes later.

Shifting blame is one of the oldest tricks that dirtbags use.

Best regards,
GB

[nico]

For me, this is completely theoretical as the people's republic of Maryland doesn't trust its subjects to carry firearms, but I definitely think you should call the cops ASAP for all the reasons already mentioned.

Ayoob writes in a very dramatic style that is quite captivating. It's when he's mistaken for an expert that he becomes dangerous.....
I haven't read any of his books, but a story I heard about him makes me wonder about his credibility. It was on another board, so take it with as much salt as you want. The poster said Ayoob was invited to a local 3-gun match to speak. He also decided to enter the competition and carried himself like the expert a lot of people think he is. Apparently, he had an ND while waiting to shoot a stage and tried to play it off like he didn't know who fired the round. He was then, not so kindly, asked to leave.

Not to jack the thread too much more, but what exactly are Ayoob's credentials? As any gun rag will show you, getting paid to write about something doesn't make a person an expert on them. What exactly has he done to make him an expert?

[dinosaur]

with cameras and tourists doing video taping and kids making home movies. :banghead: We used to say you could be in Central Park in the middle of a blinding snowstorm drinking your coffee and someone will stroll up and ask a question. Now they all have cameras and they're bored. :rolleyes:

[Mannlicher]

How can they run away when they are down? I would not pull a weapon unless I was going to use it.

[ny32182]

Criminals have OFTEN been known to turn and run simply from seeing you reach for a weapon. If their back is turned and they are fleeing by the time you have a sight picture, you can't shoot them in the back.

This is why 0.9% (iirc) of defensive uses of a firearm involve firing shots... statistically I believe you have a less than 1% chance of firing shots even in the event that you reach for your weapon.

...Which is another reason why this thread is so pertinent.

[geekWithA.45]

LONG story short,

A good friend had to draw on a jerk who was beating a woman with a pipe in a parking lot. The perp stopped beating the woman to go after him instead.

Friend retreats and eventually draws, perp stops in his tracks, cops show up, take everyone into custody.

Cops know who's who right away: My friend was the one worried about the unconcious, bloody woman hidden between the two parked cars, while the perp was the one worried about the "armed maniac who started waving his gun around, he didn't do nothing, just minding his own business".


When the woman came to in the hospital, it turned out that the perp was the victim's boyfriend, but she verified my friend's story. The cops mentioned that this was a) rare, as the victims usually back up the beater and b) saved him a lot of potential trouble.

[Vern Humphrey]

Assuming you're not in immediate, life-threatening jeopardy (and in this scenario you aren't), I'd draw my cell phone first and call 911. If that didn't stop them, then I'd shout (so the 911 operator could hear me) "Please stand back. I'm armed!"

I'd have it down on tape that I FIRST called the police, THEN warned them, and only THEN, if they persisted did I draw a weapon.

[Father Knows Best]

This thread is starting to scare me. I need to respond to a few things.There's a major legal issue here. You're only supposed to exercise lethal force if you're in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury. If you draw your gun, by definition you are in the process of exercising lethal force - even if you never fire a shot.
And...How can they run away when they are down? I would not pull a weapon unless I was going to use it.

These statements are just wrong! Drawing or revealing your firearm is not "exercising lethal force"; it is putting yourself in a position where you are prepared to do so quickly, if necessary. It would likely also constitute assault in most jurisdictions (assault, in layman's terms, means to threaten someone with physical force). By drawing your firearm, you are certainly letting them know that you are capable of exercising lethal force, and presumably that you are willing to do so. It is no guaranty that you will, however. More importantly, there is nothing illegal about it if you reasonably appehend that someone intends to do you serious harm, and has the capability to do so quickly. In other words, threatening the use of force by, for example, drawing your firearm, is a legally justified assault and is therefore not illegal if you reasonably believe that it is necessary to deter or prevent an attack upon yourself.

The legal term for actually using force against someone is "battery." Unless and until you point the muzzle in their direction and pull the trigger, you have not engaged in an intentional act that is reasonably expected to result in injury to them, and therefore have not committed a battery. Merely preparing to use force, as in drawing your firearm and bringing it to the ready, is not a battery.

In many situations, the reasonable and prudent thing to do is to draw your firearm well BEFORE the time comes that you know you need to shoot. The display of the firearm may well cause the BGs to rethink their plans and flee. Or it may cause them to reach for firearms, in which case the advantage is yours because you already have it out and at the ready. In addition, the BG's act of producing a weapon gives you much more of a legal and ethical basis on which to use lethal force, making it much easier to defend your actions.

Most importantly, if you wait until you know you need to shoot, it will often be too late. When the BG has a gun out and pointed at you, or a knife at your throat, it's a little too late to be trying to draw your weapon.

I'm an attorney (licensed in three states and a dozen federal courts), and I know a little something about these matters. In addition, my brother is an LEO (Georgia). Trust me on this one -- there is nothing illegal about drawing your firearm when you reasonably apprehend that someone intends you serious harm. You don't have to use it. The law prefers that you not use it. If you can avoid violence by displaying your weapon, you should.

Finally, I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to call the police in these situations for one reason not discussed above -- data. There is a lot of debate about defensive use of firearms. Proponents like us struggle to convince the hoplophobes that firearms in the hands of private citizens are used to prevent crime far more often than they are used to commit crime. The problem is that there is little data to support the claim, because most defensive gun uses are never reported. The FBI collects statistics on defensive gun use, but the numbers are probably a lot lower than they should be because so few people bother to report it unless they actually had to shoot someone. If you deter or stop a crime with your firearm, even if you never fired a shot, please report it. It will help all of us in the long run.

[MikeIsaj]

Drawing or revealing your firearm is not "exercising lethal force";
I disagree. In Pa. it is considered lethal force. It is certainly a "substantial step" which would justify an ADW charge, in the absence of justification. In this scenario my justificatin in drawing is based on the my belief that the BGs have the ability to harm me, the opportunity to harm me, and have taken a substantial step toward harming me. I am now justified in using lethal force to stop the threat. I do not need to wait for the actual act. They have demonstrated their intent to inflict lethal force on me, and I may defend myself.

I was taught that the law is a two edged sword that cuts both ways. A substantial step is considered to be the actual action, no matter who does it. Drawing a weapon is the substantial step that makes it lethal force.

The point I got from Preacherman is that drawing is a serious step towards using lethal force, if not considered lethal force in your state. You better be able to articulate justifying circumstances before you draw. Arguing that drawing is not lethal force would in my mind, take away the justification in your use of force when someone points a weapon at you because, they haven't actually fired.

Lets remember that each state writes it's own law with its own nuance, and although they are usually similar, the devil is in the details. Sometimes the absence of one word, such as "reasonable" can make a tremendous difference. In my state that word is absent in discussing "state of mind" in justification for use of force. I will be judged on what I believed, not what a reasonable person would be expected to believe.

[Elmer]

The legal term for actually using force against someone is "battery." Unless and until you point the muzzle in their direction and pull the trigger, you have not engaged in an intentional act that is reasonably expected to result in injury to them, and therefore have not committed a battery. Merely preparing to use force, as in drawing your firearm and bringing it to the ready, is not a battery.

Not sure in what 3 states you're an attorney, but in California and many other states, displaying a weapon in a rude or threatening manner is a felony. In other words, if you're not justified in using it, you probably won't be justified in drawing it. Obviously it will be better if they throw their hands up when you draw, but the elements needed are the same.

I doubt there's many states that allow you to point your gun at someone, "just in case".......

And battery is the physical unlawful touching of someone. Assault is the attempt. If I swing and miss, I'm still committing assault.

[Father Knows Best]

We may be saying the same thing in different ways. My point is that there may be plenty of situations where you are legally justified in drawing your weapon, and yet should not actually shoot anyone. As you correctly point out, drawing your weapon without legal justification can constitute the crime of assault with a deadly weapon (ADW), if you put someone else in reasonable fear that you intend to use it against them. Of course, if you are drawing it in order to deter or prevent someone from attacking you because you reasonably believe that they will attack and seriously injury you unless you draw it, then you are legally justified in doing so and have not committed any crime.

There are some people in this thread that have suggested that you can never draw or reveal your weapon unless and until you are legally justified in shooting someone with it. That's not the case. You can use a weapon to threaten deadly force in order to deter someone from attacking you. Indeed, if you have an opportunity to do so, you should. The actual USE of deadly force, i.e., shooting someone, should only come after all other reasonable options have been exhausted.

[Father Knows Best]

...in California and many other states, displaying a weapon in a rude or threatening manner is a felony. In other words, if you're not justified in using it, you probably won't be justified in drawing it.

Absolutely right, amd I don't disagree with you. My point is that you don't HAVE to use it just because you've drawn it. Some posts above have suggested that you should only draw if you intend to actually shoot the BG, i.e., the "they run away" scenario is irrelevant because it will never happen. My point is that you should only draw when you are legally justified in doing so, but drawing the weapon may itself be a sufficient deterrent. If so, you don't need to shoot and shouldn't shoot.

Let's take an example. You are walking to your car in a parking garage. As you approach, you spot someone leaning against it and staring right at you. You know what that look means. He looks beyond you and nods at someone. You glance over your shoulder and realize that two more figures are behind you and walking toward you. They were apparently waiting near the stairway you came out of. One is holding a baseball bat, and the other appears to have a knife. You are alone with no route of escape.

The BGs, however, are still at least 50 feet away. Are you justified in shooting them at this point? No. While you could reasonably believe that they intend to do you serious bodily harm, and they have the capability to do so, the threat is not yet imminent. They need to close the distance and/or start moving much more rapidly.

You may well, however, be legally justified in drawing or revealing your weapon, and it may be prudent to do so. If they think they have a helpless victim, they will continue to close, perhaps until it is too late to do anything other than shoot them, and you may still get injured or killed in the process. By producing your weapon, you can cause them to halt and/or flee.

Sure, if they weren't intending you harm, they could press charges for assault with a deadly weapon. That's always a risk, just as you take the risk of being charged with murder when you shoot someone that you think is trying to kill you. The question will be whether you were justified in taking the actions you took, i.e., whether a reasonable person in the same situation would have acted as you did. If you reasonably believed that threatening the use of force was necessary to prevent the attack, you are o.k. in the eyes of the law.

We could play with the facts in the above scenario, and make up thousands more. The point, however, is that a firearm may be used defensively without actually shooting someone. You need to be careful about it, and always act reasonably, but the same is true of the decision about whether to pull the trigger.

[Elmer]

That "reasonable" person is the clincher. If it goes bad for you, you won't be judged by your shooting buddies, but by 12 licensed drivers, most of whom, would probably never draw a gun at anybody. And since "bare fear" is a never a justification for deadly force, the advice to not draw it unless you could use it stands, IMHO.

[R.H. Lee]

I think you guys are overcomplicating it. You draw your weapon with the intention of using it to stop a threat. The threat must be imminent, unavoidable, and likely to result in great bodily harm to you or your death unless you stop it. Now, if something happens in the interim, after you draw, but before you fire, that de-escalates the threat, (the goblin runs away, for example), you re-holster and go on about your business. End of story.

[Elmer]

The BGs, however, are still at least 50 feet away. Are you justified in shooting them at this point? No. While you could reasonably believe that they intend to do you serious bodily harm, and they have the capability to do so, the threat is not yet imminent. They need to close the distance and/or start moving much more rapidly.

Unless those "BG's" are screaming at the top of their lungs that they plan on killing you, while running towards you, and there are witnesses to it, if you pull a gun in that scenario, you could very likely end up in jail.

Sorry Counselor, maybe you write a mean living trust, but I'd skip the criminal defense work if I were you.......

[ny32182]

FKB is saying the exact same thing I was taught in my CCW class. RileyMC just wrote a very condensed version of the same (with the exception of calling the cops afterward).

In SC, they would both be fine. In the above garage situation, there is no law on this planet that would make me wait to draw until two or three armed assailants were within contact distance. As soon as I saw the two guys with the bat and the knife, my weapon would be out of its holster. And, the second the situation was resolved, with or without shooting, if I was still able, I'd be on the phone to 911.

[Father Knows Best]

We are indeed overcomplicating it. I've never drawn my pistol, and I hope I never have to. If I'm alert and smart, I won't.

My point is simply that presentation of a weapon may often be enough to end the threat. If it is, then you shouldn't be shooting anyone.

Moreover, a large contingent on this board appear to believe that there is a single line of demarcation. On one side, you are not justified in even revealing your weapon. On the other side, you are justified in shooting. Therefore, you cannot reveal until you are justified in shooting.

My point is that there are actually two lines, at least in some scenarios. When the first line is crossed, the GG is justified in revealing a weapon even when he may not yet be justified in using it. The very fact that a weapon is presented is not an unequivocal statement of intent to use it, and therefore does not constitute ADW. This is the "A No Emphasized" phase. You warn the BG to stop. He does not. A weapon at the ready can be very useful here. It is not an unconditional threat of lethal force -- it is a threat to use force if your order to stop is not complied with. Pointing it at the BG and saying "I'm gonna blow your head off" is an unconditional threat. Producing a weapon and making clear that you will use it to defend yourself, if necessary, is not.

Yes, you run some legal risk that your action will be perceived as unjustified. Still, "better judged by 12 than carried by six", as the cliche goes, and I'd much rather be explaining why I presented my weapon in the face of a perceived threat, but had the sense of mind not to use it, than I would be explaining why I shot someone.

Sure, the legally "safe" advice is to tell someone not to reveal his weapon until he is justified in shooting the attacker. That's not very helpful advice, however. Practically speaking, you can never know in advance when that point comes. Worse, it creates a mindset in which you may hesitate to produce your weapon until it is too late, and then be too quick to use it once you do produce it.

[Vern Humphrey]

Sure, the legally "safe" advice is to tell someone not to reveal his weapon until he is justified in shooting the attacker. That's not very helpful advice, however. Practically speaking, you can never know in advance when that point comes. Worse, it creates a mindset in which you may hesitate to produce your weapon until it is too late, and then be too quick to use it once you do produce it.

Unfortunately, that goes with the territory. If you hesisate at the wrong time, you could wind up dead. If you draw too soon, you could be charged with brandishing.

That's why I say in this situation (as described here), draw your cell phone first and call 911. Then warn (and make sure the 911 operator can hear you.) Then draw your gun.

[Father Knows Best]

draw your cell phone first and call 911. Then warn (and make sure the 911 operator can hear you.) Then draw your gun.

I agree. Excellent advice.

[Elmer]

You know, if I had reacted exactly as I was trained in any number of police firearms schools I have attended, I probably would have killed 30 or 40 people.

Civilian self defense training is the same.

Do what you feel is right. All I can tell you, is that drawing a firearm at someone who is 50 feet away, in a public place, merely because they have a bat or a knife in their hand, without a clear sign that they intend to attack you, is more than likely going to land you in jail. It's also unnecessary. Displaying a weapon at someone that far away without clear provocation could even be interpreted as you being the aggressor.

Even the oft quoted 21 foot rule, in reference to using deadly force against someone with an edged weapon attacking you, is still challenged in some courts.

[Don Gwinn]

Zundfolge, your intention is admirable, but sometimes real life intrudes. If you draw your gun because you're absolutely in danger and there's no question that you should be shooting--NOT to bluff anyone, you're absolutely in danger--and before you pull the trigger, the bad guy drops his knife and turns, screaming, to run, are you still going to pull the trigger?

Tamara's story about "The Day I Learned HCI Wants Me Dead" illustrates the principle. She drew and was ready to fire when he stopped so dead he fell down. She says she remembers taking up slack on a Glock trigger before he fell, but she didn't shoot him as he lay on the floor scrambling backward out the door, and a good thing too.

[Omni04]

now if i am ever under assault i will have the slow motion memory montage where 40 people i knew told me conflicting ideas :)

im just kidding anyway, this is a lot of advice for me and i plan on analyzing it all. Every situation is different and it is hard to give a cut and dry scenario. It kind of saddens me that there's so many legalities when it comes to protecting your own life but this is something everybody on this board understands, so i must as well.

Once again thanks for everybody who posted here i honestly am not sure if too much will come from this thread (except possibly a flame fest)

i really like the idea of calling 911 BTW when i draw my weapon, and i really hope that the whole "if i draw my weapon i am always going to shoot" doesn't shed blood unneccesarily.

Happy shooting everybody!

[Elmer]

There is a lot to think about when carrying a firearm. It's a huge responsiblity, and the "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6", tough guys would probably rethink their position after a few weeks in jail......

Make no mistake, threaten me with a weapon and you'll probably find a hole, or holes in your body. But you need to know what the law actually says, rather than what some gunwriter says....

[Clocktower]

I would call the cops as soon as tactically possible... You may stop them from hurting someone else. And calling the cops covers you as well. Be a good witness that what I would do.

[thereisnospoon]

:what:

Pretty complicated stuff... :confused:

I say call the cops ASAP afterwards, if not during the confrontation. Even if you dial 911 and then drop the phone, everything will be recorded for posterity.

In the afformentioned scenario, seeing three BGs moving in a threatening posture towards my one little scrawny self immediately justifies lethal force in my mind, which is all that Alabama laws requires.

Drawing, DOES NOT MEAN SHOOTING as many have said, if they tuck and run before I aim and squeeze, then great, but dial and drop records everything, including the location since most of today's cellular telephones are encrypted with a GPS device for emergency situations.

My phone sends GPS coordinates as soonas I send 911.

[answerguy]

Glenn,
Shifting blame is one of the oldest tricks that dirtbags use.


What you described is one of the few scenarios where I can for see a BG trying to blame the victim. And the reason he did it your case was because he needed a good reason to show up at a hospital with a gunshot wound.
Any BG knows that the hospital tells the police about patients coming in with gun shot wounds.

The likelyhood of Joe Thug calling the cops and saying that the guy that he was trying to rob pulled a gun on him is remote.

[Elmer]

The likelyhood of Joe Thug calling the cops and saying that the guy that he was trying to rob pulled a gun on him is remote.

Not sure what you base that on. I've been on calls where the crooks complained about being ripped off because the dope they bought was phony......

[Technosavant]

One question for the police officers:

Would not the usual street thugs be known to the officers? I would think that, not only would it be prudent to call the cops, but that the officers would also know that some thug complaining about "that crazy guy with the gun" would be a liar, due to past experience.

Correct me if I am wrong, but even if the punk has a couple buddies verifying his story, the police would probably know ('cuz they have met these lowlifes before) that they can't trust a word they say.

[Elmer]

Depending where you are, that might be true, especially in a small town. But in a bigger city, you can't know all the crooks on your beat. That's even more true, considering how often some departments move their people around.

And don't forget, when the call comes in of a man with a gun, threatening people with it, the responding officers will naturally be a little wound up. You are going to be the main focus of their attention. I have come close to shooting homeowners with guns still in their hands when I roll up.

The cops are just guys like you, and they want to go home to their family alive also. After all, this thread was about pointing a gun a someone with a bat or knife across a parking lot. Imagine what it's like to roll up on a man with a gun call, not knowing who the players are.

[GRB]

Answerguy,

The likelyhood of Joe Thug calling the cops and saying that the guy that he was trying to rob pulled a gun on him is remote.Not as remote as you think. Bad guys panic too and make dumb decisions, they also are often whacked out on drugs when they do what they do and this clouds judgment.

I can think of an instance many years ago when a certain LEO (who shall remain unidentified) was with some friends at a park when a couple of whacked out Angel Dust smokers showed up looking to buy drugs. When one of the LEO’s friends, whom the dustos had asked for drugs, told them: "You have the wrong guys to ask about such things, go away", one of the whackos pulls out a blade and staggers and tries to point it at the friend of the LEO. The LEO leveled a .357 magnum at him told him to halt and drop the knife. He did, then he and his friend turned tail and ran, stumbled, staggered down the street. No cell phones back then; well maybe there were but not like today, they were expensive and hardly anyone had them - certainly not our LEO or his friends. Maybe, and this part here is just hypothetical, the LEO just figured they were pretty harmless in their condition or, maybe he did not want to be bothered with all the headaches of filing all the reports that he would need to file with the NYPD and with his own agency. Maybe a bad move but I can assure you, as well as I know him, I know that the LEO has learned some since then.

Well, guess where the dustos went. They went directly to the local police station and said a guy just tired to mug them at gun point. About 15 NYPD cop cars showed up in less than 5 minutes and they grabbed the friend of the LEO because he is whom the bad guys identified as having he gun. Yes they were pretty whacked out to have identified the wrong guy. The LEO stepped forward, identified himself to the police, explained what happened and; he was immediately taken into custody for questioning. After a trip to the station house and, a brief explanation by the LEO, the police then told the LEO off in quite ridiculous and nasty terms about how the dustos may have taken away the LEO’s weapon and; that only the police were capable of handling such a scene. (I guess they thought it would have been better to let the guy try to stab someone!) The police then released the LEO with no further ado.

Outcome for the two dust heads is unknown but they were nowhere to be seen at the station and the police refused to take a complaint on them, from the LEO, for pulling the knife on his friend. Go figure. My guess is they had already sauntered off to look for a drug dealer, while the police had rolled out on the man with gun complaint. While I will not identify the LEO, nor his department, lets just say I have this one on extremely reliable authority - and I am certain it happened pretty much just like that. As a matter of fact I still may have that knife but, please do not ask me how I got it because I am not telling.

All the best,
Glenn B

[kirkcdl]

I don't understand--(QUOTE)" the police then told the LEO off in quite ridiculous and nasty terms about how the dustos may have taken away the LEO’s weapon and; that only the police were capable of handling such a scene."
L E O=Law Enforcement Officer=Police


If only the police were capable of handling it,wouldn't they be glad one of their own was on scene??? :confused:

[GRB]

Maybe you do not have a lot of experience with police departments or how they work, especially the larger ones and the 'its us or no one' attitude that they often have. There is a certain level of feeling superior to all others that such departments tend to instill among their officers and that the officers then try to shove down every one else's throats. The NYPD does not consider an other type of law enforcement officer to be one of their own. Hopefully that makes it clearer.

By the way LEO equals Law Enforcement Oficer is a yes. Police officer equals LEO is a yes. BUT Law Enforcement Officer equals police is a NO, at least not always legally. Do not ever assume that because a person is an LEO they are also a police officer by way of any legal statute. Legally there can be a big difference under state law between various types of LEOs and not all LEOs are always, or have always been, considered police officers.

[porterdog]

The likelyhood of Joe Thug calling the cops and saying that the guy that he was trying to rob pulled a gun on him is remote.

Not remote enough.

http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/830601935/m/702106622

[DarkKnight01]

draw your cell phone first and call 911. Then warn (and make sure the 911 operator can hear you.) Then draw your gun.

I agree. Excellent advice.

I dont, If you have the time to pull out your phone and call 911 and wait for an operator to answer (assuming you dont get put on hold) You probably have time to escape, When it comes to the need of using and/or drawing your weapon its going to happen very quickly, seconds could mean life or death, The first tool I will be drawing will be the one that can defend my life, not the telephone. If I happen to have the time in some strange or odd situation, I may do that, but probably not. Im more worried about the problems at hand, I dont need to be taking my eyes off the BG to be dialing my cell. Id rather keep him in my sights, give him verbal commands and warnings, if he advances he gets shot, if he flee's he lives, then at that time, when you have cleared the area of any other threats, thats when I would be making the call to 911.

my 0.2$ FWIW

[Arc-Lite]

I am amazed this post has lasted this long...."you draw your weapon, they run away" end of story, what happens next and how you deal with it, is another post. if your carring legally, and if the scum calls the police.... so what !!! then they sort it out and maybe everybody goes to jail, or they go to jail.... and you sort this out in court, exactly where the scum, does not want to go. If your dealing with all the should have, could have and would haves...... then maybe just letting them rob you would be easier. In life you make your choice and deal with that choices consequences.

[Elmer]

It's hard to follow what's been said here, unless you have some knowledge of what the law actually says, rather than a movie/TV show concept.

You can't just decide that someone might be a threat, and point your gun at them. They need to actually be a threat. And if you don't call the police to report the incident, and they do, you will be working from a deficit. After all, if these people were so dangerous, why wouldn't you tell the police? And if it goes to court, don't expect twelve licensed drivers, who probably don't carry a gun, to see things your way.

People with some experience in these situations, including myself, have tried to give some advice here. Feel free not to take it.

[Arc-Lite]

my point is, there are just too many assumptions and seperate scenarios, if you decide the need is real and pull your weapon, yes, you should report it... for a ton of good reasons. good advice speaks for itself....and I am surely open for good advice.

[Elmer]

We agree. :)

[Specialized]

I realize that this thread has been well-discussed, but there are some points that need reinforcing, and one that I don't believe I've seen yet. So, here goes:

1. In any confrontation in most states, brandishing (or even allowing another person to realize you're carrying) a weapon is justifiable only when you are at or past the point where using it would be justified; i.e., when three criteria exist: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Deadly force would be justified only when immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent exists.

2. If, for any reason, you have shown yourself to have a concealed weapon, you might want to consider calling the police if only because the perpetrator(s) now know a secret about you. If they call the cops and you're picked up, carrying the very weapon the CV described, you are now two strikes behind the curve. How would they know you were carrying a concealed weapon unless they had seen you use it? As the point was made earlier, you definitely want to represent the box checked "Complainant" on that particular police report, as opposed to the alternative.

3. There are many, many documented shootings, police and civilian, where in the course of a justified shooting the shootee ended up with holes in the side, back, etc. At some point, attackers sometimes break off the attack and in a split second turn after a shot has already been committed to. This is not an automatic condemnation of the shooting, but the final determination will likely hinge upon the shooter's forthrightness, the forensic evidence, and the thoroughness and professionalism of the investigators (in no particular order).

As an aside: there seem to be a fair number of people who are convinced that Massad Ayoob is some sort of total sham, with various reasons being given for this opinion. Given what I know of his background, what I've seen of his standing in the legal, law-enforcement, and military training arenas, and what I know of him personally through his classes and my own interactions with him in social, competitive, and professional settings, I find opinions of this ilk to be baseless and a total pantload. His qualifications on paper can be found here (http://www.ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=AYOOB&Category_Code=ABT),
and his writings and the writings about him and his expertise are known and well-respected by experts worldwide. Whether one likes it or not, he enjoys the reputation as one of the preeminent voices of truth in the areas of forensic investigation and legal ramifications of force-on-force encounters. Having said that, I believe what he, his colleagues, and other training professionals always say: each instructor/pundit/writer's opinions are just that -- opinions -- and should be weighed against other learned opinions and one's own world view. As an example, many people are fervent believers in Ken Hackathorn's wisdom, but many think that his drills are unnecessarily and unjustifiably reckless. Does that nullify his opinions, or his experience, or his ability to teach?

Maybe those who feel they know better, or feel they have to trash someone personally and repeatedly (something I was told was not allowed on this forum, by the way) in this public venue, might like to publish their own curriculum vitae and body of work so that we might objectively judge the veracity of their opinions in a like manner? Elmer, perhaps you'd care to go first?

[Elmer]

In his book, "In the Gravest Extreme," Massad Ayoob mentions something very like this happening to him in a parking garage. After the BG's split, Ayoob split too, not wanting to have to deal with the police afterward. The book, and his account of the incident, are well worth reading.

I was responding to this post.

Perhaps I was harsh. I apologize.

My CV is minuscule compared to his. He's been to more schools and conferences than I would have ever had the time to go to.

But most here on this board know nothing of his background, yet quote him, and consider him an expert. Gunwriters tend to create their own legend.

I had a personal experience where I felt he was less than straightforward. I feel he overstates his police "career." (Not that there's anything wrong with Auxiliary Police, even in a tiny New Hampshire town.) His articles on certain products may or may not have been colored by financial interest.

Other than that, I enjoy his writing, even if I occasionally disagree with what he writes.

[Specialized]

Have to agree with you there. Many people in the shooting sports community, law enforcement, etc., exhibit the sort of blind faith you speak of. My theory is that each of the so-called experts have their own area of special expertise, but have to weigh in on many other areas as well because it is expected of them. Doesn't make them bad or good; it just is what it is.

The man that probably taught me the most about defensive or combat shooting taught me another important lesson as well, one that I didn't believe in at first. That man, a former colleague of Ayoob's and also an old-time Chapman disciple, told me that I should go to as many schools and instructors as I could, keep an open mind, and retain that knowledge from each that worked the best for me. He said that everyone has their own style, and that everyone must discover their own portfolio of techniques and methods that let them shoot their best. Like I said, I didn't believe it at first, but I've found that he was absolutely right. And he should know, he's trained US cops, military and special forces units, intelligence agents, even special forces and VIP protection units from other countries for the past fifty years. Every school I've been to has shown me things I've kept, and things I've discarded. All of them have been useful in some way or another.

Back to the thread at hand -- the best takeaway from it seems to be that the gun shouldn't even appear until it's time to use it. That's not a simple decision, and the decision point is later in the process for a CCW holder than a cop. It's incredibly difficult to know what's "right" in either case. Here's hoping if any one of us has to make it, we do the right thing.

[Elmer]

On that we agree.

I've learned from a multitude of people, even those I didn't expect to. I've been a teacher for a long time, but I'll always be a student.

[pete f]

My wife was driving and was almost forced off the road by a moron who then followed her and repeated tried to cut off her car and finally she got free enough to grab her phone and call 911 and call for help/

she was armed and told the operator that and was pulling in to a parking spot when she noticed he was back in behind her and pinching her car against the car in front, she got out and ducked and aimed her pistol at him and he squealed rubber out of the lot. she was already on 911 calling it in when the operator asked her if she was driving a BMW and she said yeah why,? and the operator said he was calling in on another line saying she was drunk and waving a gun around, cops caught him, he was charged with road rage. but the DA office dropped it to a plea of reckless driving.

[Elmer]

I hope you're as proud of your wife as the rest of us are......

[middy]

I hope you're as proud of your wife as the rest of us are...

Elmer, I thought she wasn't supposed to "brandish" her weapon until the bad guy's hands were around her throat. You know, just to make sure her life was in jeopardy before using "deadly force".

"Father Knows Best", stop slaughtering so many sacred cows... this thread is getting messy. :D

[Specialized]

If someone had me, and my car, cornered with their car and was making gestures like they were going to use that car as a weapon, I'd be shooting. Sounds like she did pretty well -- she managed to use Mr. Rage's apprehension re: getting shot to defuse a fully escalated confrontation. He had the ability -- a mobile car under his control, vs. a cornered car and occupant; the opportunity -- she was already cornered; and jeopardy -- he had fully demonstrated that he wasn't going to disengage and was, in fact, escalating his involvement. The fact that she didn't shoot doesn't take anything away from the fact that she was justified.

The standard is not theoretical at all -- it is what a reasonable person would take to be justified. I would challenge anyone to find a judge or jury that could not come to the same conclusion she did.

[Elmer]

Elmer, I thought she wasn't supposed to "brandish" her weapon until the bad guy's hands were around her throat.

The propensity of folks here to put words in someone else's mouth amazes me......

In my state, and in most other's I'm sure, a vehicle can be considered a deadly weapon. He attempted to run her off the road repeatedly, then continued his assault into a parking lot. She was reasonably in fear for her life. Deadly force situation. She didn't have to shoot, but she could have legally.

If you disagree with what I say, make your point. Don't make up words I didn't say.

Perhaps you don't have a point.....

[Jeff White]

I think we can discuss each other's thoughts without all the sarcasm.

We're not going to turn this thread into a gunwriter bashing thread either. You need too be able to take something useful from every post here. Even if it's what not to do.

Jeff