[2dogs]

Iraqi "human shields" take note- it's a dangerous business.




http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/273457.html

IDF: Death of U.S. activist in Gaza was
'regrettable accident'

By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent, and Agencies


The killing of an American woman peace protester Sunday by an IDF bulldozer, which ran her over during the demolition of a house at the Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip, was a "regrettable accident," a spokesman for the the IDF said.

"This is a regrettable accident," said IDF spokesman Captain Jacob Dallal. "We are dealing with a group of protesters who were acting very irresponsibly, putting everyone in danger."

Rachel Corey, 23, from Olympia, Washington, was killed when she ran in front of the bulldozer to try to prevent it from destroying a house, doctors in Gaza said. Another activist was wounded in the incident.

Hours later, two Palestinians were shot dead by IDF troops in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian sources said. A Palestinian youth was shot in Khan Yunis, according to the sources, while another man was shot in southern Rafah on the Egypt-Israel border.

"Corey was killed in the al-Salam neighbourhood when an
Israeli bulldozer covered her with sand as she stood in front of a bulldozer," said Dr Ali Musa, a doctor from the al-Najar hospital in the southern Gaza Strip. He said she died from skull and chest fractures.

Greg Schnabel, 28, from Chicago, said the protesters were in the house of Dr. Samir Masri.

"Rachel was alone in front of the house as we were trying to get them to stop," he said. "She waved for bulldozer to stop and waved. She fell down and the bulldozer kept going. We yelled 'stop, stop,' and the bulldozer didn't stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her."

Since the start of the Intifada, groups of international protesters have gathered in several locations in territories, setting themselves up as "human shields" to try to stop IDF operations.

Corey was the first member of the groups, called "International Solidarity Movement," to be killed in the conflict. Schnabel said Corey was a student at Evergreen College and was to graduate this year.

He said there were eight protesters at the site, four from the United States and four from Great Britain. "We stay with families whose house is to be demolished," he told the Associated Press by telephone from Rafah after the incident.

The U.S. State Department had no immediate comment.

[geekWithA.45]

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml




Well, grain o salt, considering the source, but long story short:

The issue of Israel & Palestine isn't black and white.

Some Palestinians are Monsters.

So are some Israelis.

[2dogs]

"The confrontation between the ISM and the Israeli Army had been under way for two hours when Rachel was run over. Rachel and the other activists had clearly identified themselves as unarmed international peace activists throughout the confrontation. "

grain o salt, considering the source, but long story short

Long story short: When you are told to get the #$%& out of the way of a bulldozer, maybe it's a good idea to do it.

Sorry, not much pity for peace protesters/ human shields who choose to put themselves in harms way.

Next.

[geekWithA.45]

2dogs:

If you're not justified to shoot, you're not justified to run someone over either.

I don't like being cast in the role of being defender of this person, not one bit,

But doesn't it strike anyone that killing unarmed people is WRONG?

[Raymond VanDerLinden]

Has anyone of you EVER seen any photos of these Peace Protestors "picketting" Hamas headquarters. You Know with signs like "Make Peace with Isriel", "Stop the Slaughter of Innocent Israilies", or even " Homocide Bombers are not Good for Children and Other Living Things" Or Maybe placing themselves as Human sheilds around Israilly buses and shopping malls to stop the Homicide bombers. Bet Not!!!

Seems to me that the Peacenick don't think of the death of innocent Americans or Israillies as violent acts, it is only vile evil and wicked if we counter attack. Kinda amasing how that works isn't it?

Newtons Laws of Momentum show that 100 to 200 pound Human does not provide an equal or opposite force to stop 20000 pound or more Bulldozer. End of story.

[CZ-75]

Israel made a point that it was an accident and the driver couldn't see her when she sat down.

Not a difficult thing to believe that the blade hindered the operator's vision.

Darwin strikes again.

Real issue is: "how does bulldozing homes create peace"?

[2dogs]

But doesn't it strike anyone that killing unarmed people is WRONG?



geekWithA.45

Of course- it also strikes me that there are some SERIOUSLY STOOPID people in this world, and this lady may just have been one of them.

And I'm willing to give the Israeli's the benefit of the doubt that this was accidental- the Palestinian side seems a smidge short on the reliability front (Jenin "massacre" ring a bell?)

[geekWithA.45]

2 dogs: Fair Enough.

[Raymond VanDerLinden]

Bulldozing an empty house that is thought to be used by your Enemies, is alot less violent than the more "Peaceful" Palastinian Method of Homicide Bombing Crowded Buses and Stores.

[Marko Kloos]

I'd have much more respect for the "peace activists" if they placed themselves as human shields at bus stops and pizza joints in Israel as well. It's telling that they trust the Israeli capacity for restraint much more than they do the Palestinian one.

[Bulldozer]

I've driven all shapes and sizes of dozers, from Cat D3 to Komatsu D575 and bigger, so I can speak from several years of experience. The forward vision does have SIGNIFICANT blind spots in the forward arc. Why do you think the guidesmen in sites stand offset to left or right side? These blind spots will only be made worse with the necessary armor and added defensive devices mounted on the Isareli gear.

Add to the mix the tactic favored by Palesinian sappers of placing satchel charges between the blade and the front track asemblies to blast the pads, sprockets, and gear arms out of kilter and you have an operator fearful of anyone in the frontal arc where a blind spot occurs.

As to the "human shield." A shield is a device used to absorb a blow in BATTLE that would otherwise strike the target. These folks know damn well that they are going into a COMBAT ZONE and are ACTIVELY AND DIRECTLY placing themselves DIRECTLY IN THE LINE OF FIRE. The first rule of combat is that incoming has the right of way. If you are stupid enough to risk your life heedlessly, then you deserve the regrettable consequences.

No sympathy here.

[six 4 sure]

Where do college students come up with the money to do these kinds of things. Heck, I have a good paying job and I can't afford to fly to Israel. How does someone that was to graduate THIS semester pull this off. To bad things like this happen, but anyone that tries to play chicken with a bulldozer is asking for trouble.

Six

[Byron Quick]

Darwin award. End of story. No outrage.

[CZ-75]

Bulldozing an empty house that is thought to be used by your Enemies, is alot less violent than the more "Peaceful" Palastinian Method of Homicide Bombing Crowded Buses and Stores.

Then you just PO more folks who will blow up a pizza joint, bus stop, etc. Does wonders for the persecution complex these folks labor under as well.

[Russ]

I hated to see this. She appeared to be a bright young woman with many years ahead of her. I don't agree with what she was doing but she had the guts to stand up and be counted. We all do stupid things in our lives, especially when we are young. most of us live through it. I'm sorry she didn't. Too bad she didn't live to get older and gain some wisdom. I have a son just a few years younger than she was. I pray for he parents and family politics aside.

[BenW]

What Bulldozer said. I worked at the County dump when I was a young buck and occasionally rode dozers. You had to put spotters everywhere to keep people from salvaging and getting in the way of the D9s, because the operators have restricted vision. And oh yeah, they're LOUD too and you wear earplugs while operating, even in enclosed cabs. Shouting is not the best way to get the operator's attention.:rolleyes:
edited to correct spelin

[Boats]

In case you missed what the "dearly departed" was all about, here she is in her own words: Direct Link (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0302/S00049.htm)

Courage And More Martyrs
Monday, 10 February 2003, 9:52 am
Article: International Solidarity Movement


Courage And More Martyrs
I was in the centre of Nablus yesterday, about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, when a youth was shot and killed by the IOF. He is SAMER ZORBHA, aged 18, a student at the High School in Nablus. He was shot twice, one bullet to the shoulder and lung, a favourite target, another to the side of the head. Another very seriously shot and injured and another injured I don't know how badly. Samer is the best friend of a beautiful young Volunteer at the UPMRC Medical Relief Centre, Mohamed al Aseel, and we are feeling his loss with anger as well as grief.

In retaliation for this murderous attack, fighters last night offered their life for their friend and killed two of the illegal occupying force, and injuring another. Two young fighters were killed and I don't yet know the extent of other injuries. I would tell you that, from my bedroom window, I saw the night sky in the area lit up like it was day for more than an hour with brilliant flares and I saw the trail of rockets missiles and machine-guns bullets fired from the US gunship helicopters - so inappropriately named "Apache' - and heard the rapid clatter of the guns of the ships of death riding the starry sky like alien invaders from another world. I heard the explosions of many shells and, I am not sure, but I think a bomb from a US F-16 warplane - the sky was full of them. There was protracted gun-fire for more than an hour. So these young guys really fought it out.

Many tanks, Hummers and Jeeps (all US gifts) rushed to the scene - many columns of them passed in our road as I watched from my window at midnight - the city is criss-crossed with new tank tracks and damage this morning. A shell case fell in our garden! I was walking back to my home just before midnight and heard APC's coming up the road - not usually afraid of these brainwashed soldiers, last night I felt very afraid and ran fast for the alley at the side of my home. As I was running, a Helicopter came overhead, following the light of a flare and, as I thought of how exposed I was, in a well-lit street with no cover, I was sick with terror for a few minutes as I ran for cover. It seemed a long time.

I would also like to ask you, and those to whom you pass this on, to think about the relative positions of the fighters and occupiers in this monumentally unequal struggle. While the huge force of Israelis have every technical aid invented by the US war machine, the few young fighters have NOTHING BUT THEIR WEAPON (and this not the most modern) - no helmet, bullet proof vest, radio contact or other protection. No back-up, no plane, helicopter, tank, APC, searchlight, dogs, flares, ambulance or refuge - put all the Israeli/American propaganda aside for a few minutes and try to imagine, please, the courage it requires to do what these young fighters do, knowing that the odds are against escape and that, every time they do succeed in evading death, the odds against a further survival are shortened. Even if the operation is a success the price is always high.

And every time the Israeli Command terrorises Nablus as today with tanks and Jeeps and APC's bristling with death at every junction within the city, operating a lock-down even worse than before (how can this be possible), more Martyrs are ready to defend the honour of Palestine and fight for the freedom of surely the most gentle, generous and peaceful people on earth..

Everyone, please, PLEASE protest to your representatives at all levels, write a letter (no matter how short) telling of the criminal acts being visited upon an innocent civilian population every day in Nablus - can we allow the courage of an exceptional people to continue to be the reason for hatred, maiming, murder and destruction on a scale and for a period never seen before in history.

Nablus today is under siege as never before - everyone, please do something - it doesn't have to be a grand act because many small acts become a large one.

And please take the time to send on this letter to everyone you have an address for. I am sure I have left many things out which I should have included here, but I'm sure you will all appreciate how stressed we all are here in Nablus today because we know this is only the beginning.

To Olympia from Rafah Date: February 7, 2003 Author: Rachel Area: Gaza

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me: Ali--or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?"

Nevertheless, I think about the fact that no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it-- and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli Army would face of they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. Ostensibly it is still quite difficult for me to be held for months or years on end without a trial (this because I am a white US citizen).

They know that children in the United States don't usually have their parents shot and sometimes get to see the ocean. But once you have seen the ocean and lived in a silent place, where water is taken for granted and not stolen in the night by bulldozers, and spent an evening when you didn't wonder if the walls of your home might suddenly fall inward waking you from your sleep, and met people who have never lost anyone-- once you have experienced the reality of a world that isn't surrounded by murderous towers, tanks, armed "settlements" and now a giant metal wall, I wonder if you can forgive the world for all the years of your childhood spent existing--just existing-- in resistance to the constant stranglehold of the worlds fourth largest military apparatus--backed by the worlds only superpower-- in its attempt to erase you from your home. That is something I wonder about these.

As an afterthought to all this rambling-- I am in Rafah: A city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60 percent of whom are refugees-- many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Rafah existed prior to 1948, but most of the people here are people--or descendants of people--who were relocated here from their homes in historic Palestine--now Israel. Rafah was split in half when the Sinai returned to Egypt. Currently, the Israeli army is building a fourteen-meter-high wall between Rafah, Palestine and the border, and carving a no-mans land from the houses along the border. 602 homes have been completely bulldozed according to the Rafah Popular Refugee Committee. The number of homes that have been partially destroyed is greater.

Today as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border: "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "what's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously-- occasionally shouting-- and also occasionally waving-- many forced to be here, many just aggressive-- shooting into the houses as we wander away.

In addition to the constant presence of tanks along the border and in the western region between Rafah and settlements along the coast, there are more IDF towers here than I can count. Along the horizon-- at the end of streets. Some just army green metal-- others these strange spiral staircases draped in some kind of netting to make the activity within anonymous. Some hidden just beneath the horizon of buildings. A new one went up the other day in the time it took us to do laundry and cross town twice to hang banners. Despite the fact that some of the areas nearest the border are the original Rafah-- families who have lived on this land for at least a century, only the 1948 camps in the center of the city are Palestinian controlled areas under Oslo. But as far as I can tell there are few-if-any places that are not within the sights of some tower or another.

I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents-- but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here-- instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. I went to a rally a few days ago in Khan Younis in solidarity with the people of Iraq. Many analogies were made about the continuing suffering of the Palestinian people under Israeli occupation and the upcoming occupation of Iraq by the United States-- not the war itself-- but the certain aftermath of the war. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region.

I also hope you'll come here. We've been wavering between five and six internationals. The neighborhoods that have asked us for some form of presence are Yibna, Tel El Sultan, Hi Salam, Brazil, Block J, Zorob, and Block O, as well as the need for constant night-time presence at a well on the outskirts of Rafah after the Israeli army destroyed the two largest wells (providing half of the water for Rafah according to the municipal water office) last week. Many of these places have requested internationals to be present at night to attempt to shield houses from further demolition. After about ten pm it is very difficult to move at night because the Israeli army treats anyone in the streets as resistance and shoots at them. So clearly we are too few.

I continue to believe that my home, Olympia, could gain a lot and offer a lot by deciding to make a commitment to Rafah in the form of a sister-community relationship. Some teachers and children's groups have expressed interest in e-mail exchanges, but this is only the tip of the iceberg of solidarity work that could be done. Many people want their voices to be heard, and I think we need to use some of our privilege as internationals to get those voices heard directly in the US, rather than through the filter of well-meaning internationals such as myself. I am just beginning to learn from what I expect to be a very intense tutelage in the ability of people to organize against all odds, and to resist against all odds.

Thanks for the news I've been getting from friends in the US. I just read a report back from a friend who organized a peace group in Shelton, Washington, and was able to be part of a delegation to the large January 18th protest in Washington DC. People here watch the media, and they told me again today that there have been large protests in the United States and "problems for the government" in the UK. So thanks for allowing me to not feel like a complete polyanna when I tentatively tell people here that many people in the United States do not support the policies of our government, and that we are learning from global examples how to resist.

my love to everyone. my love to my mom. my love to the cult formerly known as local knowledge program. my love to smooch. my love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and lincoln school. my love to olympia.

Rachel

[ojibweindian]

She was an idiot.

If you put yourself in harm's way, you should expect to be harmed.

[Boats]

She was oh, so peaceful too!:rolleyes:

Peaceful Protestor (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030317/168/3j5nj.html)

[Kaylee]

I might not agree with all her politics, but she saw suffering humanity and took what steps she could to alleviate that. She died doing what she thought was right, and wasn't hurting anybody else in the process. I can honor that.

God be with her and her family.

-K

[PATH]

It was not too brilliant, stepping in front of a bulldozers blind spot. I am sorry she was killed but I believe she was a useful idiot for the Palestinian authorities.

The picture of her burning a facsimilie of the American flag makes me a whole lot less sympathetic.

[MitchSchaft]

She should be nominated for a Darwin.

[scottgun]

I guess this bulldozer driver plays by a different set of rules. The logging excavators in the Pacific Northwest will stop when an idiot gets in front of their path and come back the next day when the protesters are off saving something else.

[Russ]

I would hate to think the IDF ran over her on purpose. I don't think they did. I think this was a tragic accident not only for her and her family but also for the dozer driver who has to live with it. If the driver ran over her on purpose, I would call that murder.

[Poodleshooter]

American protestors need to wake up to the realities of the world and learn that passive resistance doesn't work if the people you are protesting are willing to kill you regardless of the consequences. Sit-ins are a facet of protests in peaceful democratic nations, and not a format you can utilize successfully outside of the western world. How well would a "sit-in" have worked for Jews in 1942 Germany, or for the Cambodian educated class in Pol Pot's regime?
What she did was stupid. This is the equivalent of protesting SUV's by attempting to block their passage on the freeway.

[Waitone]

Magical Thinking is symptomatic of serious psychological issues.

The lady has a belief system upon which she was willing to bet her life.

Too bad she believed wrong.

[Baba Louie]

You can call it stupid and cry out Darwin and thats fine.

But...

Standing up to a bulldozer because of your belief's... strong.

Like standing up against a tank in Tinammin Square... courage.

I hope that if I'm ever faced with a bulldozer or a tank in the form of a government agency coming to disarm me, and I'm forced to stand alone, I will be... strong... display courage...

We all die some day.

She chose her "some day" because of "some thing" she believed deeply in.

Her choice.

Passive.

Good for her... I guess...

Adios

[Standing Wolf]

Not a good idea to show up for a bulldozer fight without a...

Well, you can figure it out.

[DeltaElite]

Duhhhhhhhhh, I will stand in front of the bulldozer, duhhhhhhhhhh.
Darwin is proven correct, yet again. :D

[LoneStranger]

Reminds me of the Peace(?) Protestors who laid across the tracks out by Port Chicago to stop the bomb trains.

Problem was they didn't realize that it takes time and distance to stop a train and they didn't allow for it. Cut one fella's legs off and didn't stop just delayed the train.

Best part was that the train crew sued the protestors for causing them mental anguish. Didn't hear the results but I believe the train crew won.

[Zander]

http://academic.evergreen.edu/n/nivas/

Don't bother trying to communicate to him...all the links are 'invalid'. He's a coward. I'm shocked! :rolleyes:

Instead, we should focus our questions to Evergreen itself because they employ a "professor" who likes the idea of encouraging impressionable students to make trips overseas to counter American "imperialism".

http://www.robert-fisk.com/steve_niva_sept14_2001.htm

I say we dedicate ourselves to getting this chicken-squat SOB fired so that he can't influence [fund?] such trips for young folks who are just starting their lives.

What a waste of her young life...

Let the admin's at Evergreen know your opinion...

http://academic.evergreen.edu

[Thumper]

Today as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border: "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "what's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks

This poor chick seemed determined to kiss a tread.

[Sir Galahad]

I've operated Cat D8s. Dozers are not station wagons. You can't see people in front of them. That's how curious kids that get to close to heavy equipment to watch get accidently killed. That happens once or twice a year in this country; kids go to watch construction and end up under a scraper or dozer. First off, that cab is high up. Add to that a raised blade and your vision is blind for several feet in front of the machine. Second, a heavy equipment operator is concentrating on operating that piece of equipment; not holding some bystander's hand. Even on job sites where guys KNOW BETTER, some guy will step in front of a piece of equipment and get killed. IT HAPPENS!!! I do not feel sorry for this incredibly stupid woman. She played chicken and lost. Oh, well. For a Darwinian bonus, I hear she didn't breed.

I did see a picture of her burning an American flag amongst a group of Palestinians. Maybe the better quesion is, if she was a "peace advocate", why was she whipping up violent fervor among people who might act on those impulses?? You play a rough game, you better be ready to lose at it.

[jmbg29]

Death of U.S. activist in Gaza = One less moron in my state, and in my country.

Good riddance.

[Bahadur]

lendringser:
It's telling that they trust the Israeli capacity for restraint much more than they do the Palestinian one.Bingo!

kaylee:
I might not agree with all her politics, but she saw suffering humanity and took what steps she could to alleviate that. She died doing what she thought was right, and wasn't hurting anybody else in the process. I can honor that.I'd agree IF her actions actually contributed to peace in the Middle East. Sadly, she and her misguided peers are used as propaganda material for cynical Palestinian "leaders." I seriously doubt that the likes of her death will actually contribute to the easing of Palestinian suffering (or Israeli suffering, for that matter). While death of the dumb is often tragic, I cannot mourn the death of a "useful idiot." I neither celebrate nor mourn, but shrug.

BTW, some glimmer of hope in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict: it appears that Arafat will now have to share power with a moderate who is liked by Israel and the US as a possible, more trust-worthy partner. Let us hope that this can perhaps kindle a chance for peace there.

[CMichael]

I have zero sympathy for her. She put herself in front of a bulldozer to protect a house used by Hamas. She sided with the terrorists.

Good riddance!

Throw yourself in front of a bulldozer you may get run over

[M1911]

If you're not justified to shoot, you're not justified to run someone over either.Has any of you ever driven a bulldozer? I have once, a Cat D7. That one is a moderate size, one size smaller than the "standard" model. On a D7, the only part of the blade that the driver can see on a D7 is the top two corners (left and right). You cannot see directly in front of the thing. The Israelis use an armored D9. It is a much, much larger machine. A true monster. With truly monstrous blind spots, especially directly forward. And that's if it was just your typical construction model. The military version is armored and has very, very small windows.

Folks, I've spent a while on construction sites. It is your job to stay out of the way of the machines, simply because the operator has a heck of a hard time seeing you. If you start playing dodge 'em and double-dare with an armored D9 like she did, then you're just Darwin-award material.

[Bulldozer]

Amen, brother.

Biggest I drove around was a Komastu 575. Wheeled dozer was a Cat 992. Them's big iron!

We sold a few surplus Israeli machines at an auction a few years back when I was in the employ of a large, multinational construction auction company. They were incredible machines, but the cab visibility was absolutely miserable.

[Mk VII]

demolishing houses is a longstanding collective punishment in Palestine, used by the British during the Mandatory period.

[priv8ter]

For those of you who wanted to write to Evergreen State U about this, I wouldn't bother. They pride themselves on being, 'A progressive, public liberal arts college.' They don't even give student real grades!!!!! A student's progress is based off a one-on-one self-evaluation with a facility member.

ICK!!!!!! :barf: :barf: :barf:

[KMKeller]

Here is a picture of a D9 Cat. Look at the size of this behemoth. No wonder the operator couldn't see her. And this one is unarmored.

http://www.caterpillar.com/cgi-bin/equipment_getimage.cgi?imageid=C019498

And here is the IDF armored version:

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/Ground_support/bulldozer.jpg

Here is a page covering a few pictures:

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Army/CAT_D-9/index.html

This view will give you an estimate of the size of this thing:

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Army/CAT_D-9/images/195.JPG

[CZ-75]

For those of you who wanted to write to Evergreen State U about this, I wouldn't bother. They pride themselves on being, 'A progressive, public liberal arts college.' They don't even give student real grades!!!!! A student's progress is based off a one-on-one self-evaluation with a facility member.

Sound like it's a place for REALLY stupid liberals.:D

[M1911]

KMKeller: great photos.

Folks, draw a line from the bottom of the blade to the operators eyes. As you will notice, that line runs right through the engine compartment. In other words, he can't see anything down there. Add in the blind spots caused by those two large uprights that lift the blade.

If you see one of these, stay a long way away. The operator just cannot see very well out of these monsters.

[Harold Mayo]

I've read some of this Steve Niva's writings and it is obvious that he is an idealist who doesn't really understand how the world works, even though he is highly educated and seemingly well-studied in his "specialty".

People on both sides of the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians are monster and there are good people on both sides, too. The Palestinians are the wronged party in the conflict but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that the Israelis have a strong, viable government that commands the respect of the entirety of the Middle East and they are our allies. Are we going to do anything at all to jeopardize a country that is one of our staunchest allies in the world? In the Middle East? I think not. Yes, the Israelis victimize Palestinians and the Palestinians are frustrated and lash out. So? My own country and family come before any amount of Palestinians. I support the Israelis, at least in spirit. I sympathize with the Palestinians but what are we to do? Nothing that is helpful.

Anyone who advocates sitting down and talking with these people and ironing their problems out over dinner is an idiot. There has never been peace in the Middle East and there never will be...not unless it is a peace enforced by strength of arms. That is what ALL peace is, isn't it? That or total happiness, which is, I believe, a myth. These people have been fighting for so long that the original reasons don't even matter, anymore.

It's a sad thing that the girl was killed but she put herself in that position. If she thought that she was safe in Israel, siding with the Palestinians and burning the American flag and all, she was sorely mistaken. Death is always a sad thing but I can't find very much sympathy for her and none at all for her cause or her university OR, most especially, for her mentor.

[CMichael]

I think not. Yes, the Israelis victimize Palestinians and the Palestinians are frustrated and lash out. So? My own country and family come before any amount of Palestinians. I support the Israelis, at least in spirit. I sympathize with the Palestinians but what are we to do? Nothing that is helpful.

The people who victimize the Palestinian people are the Palestinian government.

Some time ago Israel offered to put the arabs in the west bank and gaze in apartments rather than having them in refugee camps. The leadership wouldn't let that happen.

The Palestinian government uses the people in order to keep their dictatorial power by keeping the arabs in the west bank and gaza improverished. The gov't is just another method to maintain and grow the terror network.

[Harold Mayo]

The Israeli government does, as well. I support the Israelis but my conversations with Palestinian expats living here have opened my eyes about a lot of things. I once villified the Palestinians but they're no more villains than the Israelis. It's all subjective.

[CMichael]

I don't blame the poor Palestinians, I blame the leadership, that are brutal dictatorships.

There is a huge difference between the Israelis and the PA government. The PA is a brutal dictatorship. The Israeli government even has arab represenatives in their parliament.

It's no more subjective than Hussein being the bad guy and the US being the good guy.

[Harold Mayo]

It's no more subjective than Hussein being the bad guy and the US being the good guy.

Yeah, it is. To Saddam, he's the wronged party here and WE are the bad guys. That's just too bad, though. I can empathize but not sympathize. You get in the way of the big dogs, you get bitten. EVERYTHING is subjective...you just have to decide not to care about anyone's subjective reality but your own...:D

[clem]

I'll never forget the pictures of "the poor Palestinians" dancing in the streets as the WTC towers burned and fell.

The hell with them and curses on anyone who supports them.

The good thing about her death is that it's one less traitor that has to go to trial.


Ya, I know but I don't care.

[Peetmoss]

Gee thats to bad. NOT!

[Ledbetter]

Ray van der L said:

"Newtons Laws of Momentum show that 100 to 200 pound Human does not provide an equal or opposite force to stop 20000 pound or more Bulldozer. "

So next time, International Solidarity fans, try it in groups of six.:neener:

[M1911]

20000 pound or more Bulldozer.A Caterpillar D9 (http://www.caterpillar.com/cgi-bin/equipment_proddetail_overview.cgi?type=overview&id=D9R&family=Track-Type+Tractors&subfamily=Large&model=&subfamilyid=322&rgnid=NACD&headerimageid=C015445) weighs more than 100,000 lbs. That's a regular one. The Israeli armored ones have to weigh even more than that.

[Dave Markowitz]

Sounds like a little chlorine got tossed into the gene pool.

[Bahadur]

clem:
I'll never forget the pictures of "the poor Palestinians" dancing in the streets as the WTC towers burned and fell.

The hell with them and curses on anyone who supports them.There are some Americans who thought that we "deserved it" too. Are you going to condemn all Americans for that too?
The good thing about her death is that it's one less traitor that has to go to trial.Quite frankly, I think that she was stupid in so many different ways. I already stated that I neither mourn nor celebrate her death, but merely shrug with incomprehension.

But she was no traitor to the United States - certainly not in the strict sense of that word, as we are not at war with the Palestinian people.

CMichael:
The people who victimize the Palestinian people are the Palestinian government.

Some time ago Israel offered to put the arabs in the west bank and gaze in apartments rather than having them in refugee camps. The leadership wouldn't let that happen.I am right there with you as far as the victimization of the Palestinians by their own leadership is concerned.

But let's not ignore the fact that many ordinary Palestinians have been victims of Israeli settlement policies driven by the Jewish fundamentalist segment of the Israeli government that has sought to, and even now seeks to, ethnic-cleanse the Occupied Territories for some sort of a notion of Jewish messianic prophesy.

Independent of the evilness of the Arafat dictatorship (which, thankfully, seems to be crumbling), the Israeli occupation authorities have not exactly been "benevolent" to ordinary Palestinians (I still remember the days when the Israeli government taxed the Palestinians as if the latter were Israeli citizens, yet offered them no civil rights of any kind, not to mention diverting the vast majority of the natural resources of the land to a comparatively few Israeli settlers).

Now, have the Israelis been as bad as the Syrians, Iraqis or Iranians? Heck no! Not even close! But that does not mean they did not use, quite frankly, extremely dubious methods of "population control" for an equally dubious purpose (religious colonial settlement to displace existing population by force). To claim "we are not as bad as the Nazis" (or Syrians or Iranians or whatever) is not much of a defense for comitting evil deeds. "Less evil" is still often "evil enough."

For the record, I support Israel as an ally of the US over any other Middle East country and genuinely wish for the success of the Israeli "experiment." However, for both moral AND practical reasons, I hope that the Israelis EVENTUALLY withdraw from the Occupied Territories.

But that requires more than Israeli sacrifice and generosity - it requires Palestinian sacrifice and generosity, which, unfortunately, has not been forthcoming, particularly at the "leadership" level... It's a difficult situation. Though I have my favorite side in the conflict, it has been waged in the rules of tribal warfare rather than 21st Century American rules of warfare, with the attendant bitterness, sorrow and thirst for revenge on both sides.

[twoblink]

Ok, I think there is a problem with the general concept of peace shield.

If she believed what she was doing was really worth dying for, good for her. She stood up to the cause and died for it.

That said, there are times I'm crossing the street, I have the right of way... a speeding car comes around... I can stand there and decide, "hmm... I have the right of way" or I can get out of the way and not get run over.

If my convictions about being right was so strong, ok... Maybe I'll stand there.... But I doubt it.

I think the problem I have with these "peace folks" is they seem to send the message that bombing buildings and plazas filled with crowded people is ok, but bulldozing empty houses is not.

I don't think I can really respect people who take this view. I have sympathy for her family... but hey... If you raised your daughter to be that way...

[Byron Quick]

Depends on where you're crossing the road in my part of the world. In a pedestrian crosswalk, you have the right of way if you're crossing with the lights or if there is no light. Any other place, you're jaywalking, friend, and you DO NOT have the right of way.

[DeltaElite]

Legalities aside, I believe that a motor vehicle always has the right of way, since it can squash me like a bug. :D

[DRC]

Common sense.

That's right, common sense is what is needed in order for these "peace activists" to understand their actions. If we could figure out a way to put common sense into liquid form and inject them with it we could solve these problems.

Could you imagine a "peace activist" in Iraq running around denouncing the US, burning flags chanting drivel at the top of their lungs getting hit with a common sense tranquilizer dart? I think it would go something like this:

"What do we want? PEACE! When do we want it? NOW! We want (thwack)...um...peace. Where in the hell am I? DOH!...Ticket please!"

If these folks had any common sense they would not be there in the first place. But then if they had any common sense they wouldn't be "peace activists" either ;)

Take care,

DRC

[clange]

Top speed of 7.4 mph (http://www.caterpillar.com/cgi-bin/equipment_proddetail_overview.cgi?type=overview&id=D9R&family=Track-Type+Tractors&subfamily=Large&model=&subfamilyid=322&rgnid=NACD&headerimageid=C015445) in 3rd gear (CAT webpage), or am i reading something wrong?

[Sir Galahad]

It makes no difference how fast the machine was going if the operator couldn't see her, which I am sure he didn't. Kids that play on construction sites get run over in just that manner. So do employees of strip mines and other sites who don't watch where they're going.

And she WAS a traitor. I saw photos of her burning American flags with Palestinians. Or is buring the American flag now a rite of good citizenship that I am not aware of?:rolleyes:

[clange]

Point was it was probably going in first or second gear at like 2-4 mph. Pretty sure she coulda moved.

[Sean Smith]

I'm just going to file this under "unplanned comedy." :evil:

[p35]

Greeners are a notorious PITA around here- always getting up some stupid far left protests in a way that inconveniences people who work for a living as much as possible. There have been movements in the Legislature to close the place, but they never go anywhere. That nut who killed the police officer in California (Red Bluff, IIRC) as a political protest was a Greener too. Couple years ago they voted for Mumia Abu-Jamal, who is on Death Row for the murder of a cop in Pennsylvania, as the guest of honor at commencement. Basically a far left refuge from reality.

Having said that, the place does have an excellent academic reputation in the US News ratings and I have known some outstanding people who went there.

I've long been a supporter of Israel, but I am disgusted at their approach to dealing with the Palestinians. Right now there are about 4 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli, most (on both sides) noncombatants. I can't see the moral difference between a 6 year old Palestinian kid machine gunned from an Israeli tank and a 6 year old Israeli kid blown up by a bomb. Both are atrocities. I keep thinking about that famous line after the Sand Creek massacre of Indian women and children: "nits make lice". I see Rachel Corrie's death as another example of the Israeli's tendency to blow right through anything or anyone they don't like, just like their habit of putting down demonstrations with machine gun fire.

[Blackhawk]

Regrettable? Accident?

Suicide by bulldozer.

[Bahadur]

And she WAS a traitor. I saw photos of her burning American flags with Palestinians. Or is buring the American flag now a rite of good citizenship that I am not aware of?I don't know if this confused, dead lassie burned the American flag or not.

While I consider improper burning of the American flag to be morally egregious, it is not treason, which has a very specific legal-constitutional context.

You offer an interesting dichotomy, however. Either a behavior is treasonous or a rite of good citizenship?
I can't see the moral difference between a 6 year old Palestinian kid machine gunned from an Israeli tank and a 6 year old Israeli kid blown up by a bomb.There may not be a practical difference (death is a death), but there is a significant moral difference between an unintentional "collateral" death and a death by an intentional suicide attack.
I see Rachel Corrie's death as another example of the Israeli's tendency to blow right through anything or anyone they don't like...And there is a definite difference between courting death and being blown up while buying a pizza for lunch, minding one's business.
Regrettable? Accident?

Suicide by bulldozer.An UNINTENTIONAL suicide, if there is such a thing. More likely suicide by stupidity.

[Byron Quick]

p35.

Have you ever seen the Palestinian children using slings to "throw rocks" at the Israeli soldiers? I'm no expert with a sling but I've penetrated a quarter inch of plywood using a rock the size of hen's egg with one.


Ok, here's the scenario. A group of adolescents are "throwing rocks" at you. Exactly how many rocks will literally penetrate your body before you shoot?

I support folks right to protest. I also support my right to drive down the highway. To prevent our rights from colliding, I would suggest that they not protest in the highway.

The young lady chose the wrong place and time to display the foolishness of youth.

[Blackhawk]

An UNINTENTIONAL suicide, if there is such a thing.She intentionally didn't get out of the way of something moving at way less than 1 mph that would surely kill her if she didn't move. It's not as though she was scrambling to get out of the way at the last second.

[BenW]

I don't know if this confused, dead lassie burned the American flag or not.
Well, she did, and there's a link to a photo somewhere here showing her doing it. You are right that flag burning, though vile, is not treason. If you look at the photo though, you can see the hateful expression she has as she's burning it. Her cause was driven by hate, and thus, outside of the stupidity factor of her not understanding how dozers work, I cannot feel sorry for what happened to her.

[BigJake_old]

One more idiot out of the gene pool, and good ridance.

[Mr. Fixit]

Blind idealism may obscure the bulldozer about to crush you....

[Bahadur]

It's not as though she was scrambling to get out of the way at the last second.Maybe she did when she saw death coming for her. Either way, I stand by my statement that it might be "suicide by stupidity."
Well, she did, and there's a link to a photo somewhere here showing her doing it. You are right that flag burning, though vile, is not treason.We are in full agreement there.
I cannot feel sorry for what happened to her.Why would you?

[Labinnac]

Honestly, her death struck me as a tragedy at first. She reminded me of more than a few of my close friends growing up and going through college. Some of them were decent yet often misguided people who lacked common sense.

Now my patience for such people is gone and I don't tolerate it any longer. I see spoiled people such as this girl, and the the Taliban boy from CA, and it makes me sick. Ignorance breeds ignorance, intolerance breeds intolerance.

Now it is more of a relief than a tragedy. She was young, and had her whole life ahead of her. Doing what I wonder? Breeding more ignorant anti-American peace protestors? Becoming a terrorist agent within the borders of the US? We all suspect Arab men between the ages of 18 and 35, but who would ever suspect a pretty young blonde American girl?

These people take advantage of a system that allowed them to grow and live safely without fear. And to learn, think, and speak as they choose to. They take that gift, that FREEDOM... And use it against the very nation that provided it for them. Traitor is too weak of a title for the likes of people such as these. More like an ungrateful little rat dog who takes the food, water, and shelter, provided by a nice old man all the while crapping is his yard and trying to bite him every chance it gets...

Too bad she didn't fall under the tracks or have the blade dropped down on her with conviction. They would've had to use a hose and a strainer to send her remains back to her family...

[Bahadur]

We all suspect Arab men between the ages of 18 and 35, but who would ever suspect a pretty young blonde American girl?I do, and I always have. I attended an Ivy League university - supposedly for the intellectually gifted youth - for my undergraduate education (as a foreign student). One thing I learned there was that many of my "peers" had NO clue about the world outside their little comfortable American suburban utopia (unlike the previous generations that had experiences of depression and war). They were so naively guilty about their prosperity that they were convinced that their country was - somehow - robbing from the downtrodden of the world.

Hence, they were going to fight their own country to save the oppressed of the world. Many were into "revolutions" as a romance without realizing the real world consequences of most of these so-called revolutions around the world (unlike me who learned it the hard way by having half the family murdered, first by the Axis Powers, then by the Communist "liberators").

Now that I am older, it scares me to know that these people have become attorneys, physicians, investment bankers, management consultants, corporate leaders, politicians, artists, actors and other high profile people in the society.

Islamic terrorists are certainly a threat to us. But I have always thought that the persistent elitism-by-self-loathing on the part of a considerable portion of our population is going to be our national suicide one day.

For the record, my wife is a brunette (and she is a strict Constitutionalist too)! :)

[Labinnac]

I went to a regular state school for college and got a BS in engineering. Strange... There weren't any of those "self loathing" individuals in my class. We, as engineers, still felt elite compared to the rest of the monkeys but I think it was because we had better things to do with our time and knew it. We didn't have the privelege or time to take basket weaving and tennis for 4 years. We were there for a reason, to be able to do something with our lives.

Regardless, I don't think its simply a side effect of being young or being in college. I knew plenty of people who became everything from artists to brain surgeons and everything in between. I think its more a side effect of one's upbringing. It seems to me that the kids who had everything handed to them tended to become hippies trying to save the world. The rest of us are too busy working to make money to pay taxes so we can all be free...

[jmbg29]

We all suspect Arab men between the ages of 18 and 35, but who would ever suspect a pretty young blonde American girl?

Labinnac I do, and I always have.

Bahadur Patty Hearst heard the burst, of Roland's Thompson gun........and bought it!

Warren Zevon :D

[CMichael]

But let's not ignore the fact that many ordinary Palestinians have been victims of Israeli settlement policies driven by the Jewish fundamentalist segment of the Israeli government that has sought to, and even now seeks to, ethnic-cleanse the Occupied Territories for some sort of a notion of Jewish messianic prophesy.

Jews have every right to live there. It is Israeli territory. I do believe that Israel made a mistake by making the status murky. It should have immediately annexed the territory. I do not shed tears that Jordan lost the territory. After all, it consistently attacked Israel for the purpose of destroying it completely simply because it was there.

And palestine never existed. It was proposed by the Brits, and the arabs showed that they didn't agree to it since they invaded Israel on the day of its independance.

Yeah, the arabs who are in the west bank and gaza are not Israeli citizens. That is because they are making their status murky.

However, Israel offered to put those in refugee camps in apartments but the PA refused. They want to keep them poor.

And as we know Israel offered about 97% what they wanted and Arafat walked away.

It's extremely obvious that the PA don't want peace. They want a terrorist recruiting ground for the purpose of destroying everyone they want to destroy for whatever reason.

[Bahadur]

It should have immediately annexed the territory.That's one thing Israel could have done. But if it did that, it would have to confer citizenship rights, including voting, to the residents of the territory like it did with Arabs in Israel "proper."

Do you know what that'd have done to preserving "Jewish" democracy with the demographic dynamic? The Israeli leaders considered the idea right after the Six-Day War and rejected it for that same reason. They decided that they'd hold it "murky" so they can trade it for peace (like they eventually did with Sinai).

To the chagrin of the Israelis, the Jordanians and Egyptians said "keep it, it's your problem." Sometimes military conquests bring unexpected problems.
And as we know Israel offered about 97% what they wanted and Arafat walked away.You get no argument from me on that one.
It's extremely obvious that the PA don't want peace. They want a terrorist recruiting ground for the purpose of destroying everyone they want to destroy for whatever reason.I agree. But that PA leadership like Arafat does not really want peace does not mean that Palestinians don't want peace. Or for that matter, it does not mean that everyone in Israel or Israeli government wants peace either.

You seem to think that "Arafat bad" means "Israeli religious colonial policy good." It's not one thing or the other. Different degrees of each can co-exist in this complicated and messy situation.

[Bahadur]

We, as engineers, still felt elite compared to the rest of the monkeys but I think it was because we had better things to do with our time and knew it. We didn't have the privelege or time to take basket weaving and tennis for 4 years.How do we go from Ivy Leage University to "basket weaving"? Some of these "peers" of mine did study engineering (and were not necessarily better students than non-engineers).

In fact, a roommate of mine, who is now a VP of an investment bank, studied engineering there and went on to study electrical engineering at a top-ten graducate program. I don't keep in touch with him. Even though he is nominally a Republican and most certainly not a "self-loather," he is a person who seems to think that money can buy everything (and is, therefore, the most important thing in the world) and that violating the law is perfectly fine if he can get away with it. I don't think he is exactly civic-minded either.

[CMichael]

What I am saying Bahadur is that anything Israel gives to Arafat's regime is something that makes Arafat stronger and will be used to make terrorism flourish.

Unfortunately, the arabs in the west bank and gaza have about as much say in their government as ordinary Iraqis have in theirs.

Therefore, if Israel hands over the West Bank to the PA what they are really doing is handing it over to Arafat's regime who will use it for evil purposes.

The US has been attacking UBL militarily and financially.

The problem is that Arafat's regime has been legitimized. It is getting aid from the UN and even the US.

According to the Oslo Accord Israel wasn't allowed to pursue terrorists into Gaza. What happened? Gaza became a terrorist training ground and a haven for terrorists.

Israel must treat it's terrorists like the US is treating hers. It must kill or imprison terrorists like Arafat and his government. This is similar to letting Hussein or UBL have a portion of land to do with whatever they want and even giving them money to finance their terrorr.

It makes no sense, other than political sense.

The way you deal with terrorists is by killing them.

[Labinnac]

My best friend from high school went to an ivy league school on an engineering scholarship. Decided it was too hard and transferred to philosohpy or something equally useless. He graduated and works with computers and is an all around good guy.

Anyway, my earlier post wasn't about college mentality but general life mentality of some people. Those being the spoiled ones who can't ever decide what they want to do in life. Your investment banker friend sounds like the opposite of what I was talking about. He chose a path that changed along the way but with a long term goal in mind all the while. That being to make cash and be happy. He did that and I'd assume doesn't hurt anyone in the process.

Idle hands are the devil's playground. Same goes for idle minds.

Boredom, in my experience, breeds profound stupidity. Especially in young people. All of the dangerous crap I did that lead to near disasters was due to boredom. People get smashed by bulldozers because they stick their butts in the line of fire when they don't have to be... Because of having far too much time on their hands and not enough practical crap to worry about. She could've spent her time helping little kids, or tutoring, or volunteering at a soup kitchen, or collecting coupons to help feed homeless people, and all right here at home... But no, she CHOSE to not do those things locally which we all see sooner or later. She picked up a cause that wasn't hers to fight and went and got herself squashed like a grape...

That she chose to focus her dedication and energy into a foreign problem is the real tragedy.

[Bahadur]

Therefore, if Israel hands over the West Bank to the PA what they are really doing is handing it over to Arafat's regime who will use it for evil purposes.I do NOT advocate that Israel relinquish West Bank and Gaza in the current climate. I can completely understand why the Israeli government refuses to deal with Arafat directly.

Having said that, that strategy can play into Arafat playing the "national hero" part. Therefore, a judicious policy of fostering a milder alternative to Arafat is needed here. Remember that if it were up to Eamon de Valera, the Irish would have NEVER signed up for peace with England. Michael Collins, as ruthless a terrorist he was, realized the need for peace and negotiated the "Free State" (not quite independence) treaty with England, for which he paid his life (as Anwar Sadat did). And fostering the Hamas (Islamists) as a counter to Arafat (secularist) was a very, very BAD idea.

That is why fostering Abu Mazen as a rival power center (prime minister) might be a good idea. Certainly the Israeli government and the US government seem to believe that he would be a more reasonable peace partner.

You have to understand something else. The Israeli occupation authorities did some terrible things to ordinary Palestinians in the PAST in an effort to "control" them. So, Palestinians tend to view their leaders who did not participate in the armed struggle as being practically a collaborator. You are NOT going to find a Palestinian leader (willing to deal with Israel or not) who does not have blood on his hands (as was the case with Michael Collins in the Irish example), who is going to be acceptable to the Palestinians as a legitimate leader.

The trick is to find a terrorist/guerilla who is PRACTICAL (and recognizes that Israel will NEVER be destroyed) and sees some sort of a viable solution at the end. Death- and revolution-lovers who see them as an end (not simply the means to achieve a viable solution of coexistence) can never be dealt with obviously except by violence.
The way you deal with terrorists is by killing them.That is ONE component. All the successful anti-guerilla and anti-terrorist campaigns in history have had two things in common, both of which are necessary: 1) harsh military/security pressure against the radicals among the terrorists and 2) political accomodation and negotiation with the practical ones among them to address the grievances of the people.

The idea is to marginalize the real psychos and demonstrate to the ordinary enemy civilians that you really do want peace rather than an unjust domination. Various Israeli government have done the opposite in many cases, making things worse (punishing the general population for the acts of the radicals) - and played into the hands of the radicals.

And there ARE those in Israel and Israeli government who sabotage genuine peace attempts because they want to pursue the other option in anti-partisan/-terrorist warfare: extermination and/or forced expulsion of the entire population - a colonialist path that is, or should be, repellent to any civilized society.

[Bahadur]

She could've spent her time helping little kids, or tutoring, or volunteering at a soup kitchen, or collecting coupons to help feed homeless people, and all right here at home... But no, she CHOSE to not do those things locally which we all see sooner or later. She picked up a cause that wasn't hers to fight and went and got herself squashed like a grape... Yes, I agree.
My best friend from high school went to an ivy league school on an engineering scholarship. Decided it was too hard and transferred to philosohpy or something equally useless.Well, philosophy can be very difficult... with which to find a job! :)

Certainly those with such degrees who end up making excellent living are the real smart ones. :)

BTW, as far as I know (or at least when I worked at the admissions office of one as a student), Ivy League universities do not have "engineering scholarships" (and definitely no athletic scholarships contrary to the popular media portrayals of such).

Most, if not quite all, scholarships are based on financial need at the Ivy League institutions (for undergrad, that is - Ph.D scholarships are different). There are some "merit" scholarships for particular causes or disciplines, but they are usually in very small amounts (say, $500 or $1,000 or some such figure -certainly not enough to cover the tuition).

[Joe Demko]

This is a valuable thread. It proves that not only Palestinians "dance in the blood" of others when there is a death of someone they consider an enemy. How does it feel to have become that which you profess to hate?

[jmbg29]

I don't consider her my enemy, she was my enemy. Anyone that aids terrorists of any kind, are in fact, my enemy.

Now I have one less enemy in the world. If only my other enemies could be as accommodating. :rolleyes:

[Bahadur]

This is a valuable thread. It proves that not only Palestinians "dance in the blood" of others when there is a death of someone they consider an enemy. How does it feel to have become that which you profess to hate?Come again? Please elaborate. I am confused as to exactly what you mean by what you wrote above.

[Joe Demko]

Bahadur,
I mean read back over the thread and look at all the little smileys and gloating commentary on this woman's death. It puts me squarely in mind of the Palestinians who were filmed dancing in the streets following 9/11 and, more recently, US casualties in Iraq.

[CMichael]

Bahadur I almost agree with you. I guess miricles do happen.

The problem is the PA leadership. Arafat and his henchmen have a habit of trying to create a facade to cater to the American media and politician while still doing their terrorism thing.

How do you know if the "new leadership" is genuine or another trick. The PA has so far given no reason that they could be trusted.

I think the PA would have to earn trust.

In the meantime I would not give anything to the PA for empty promises.

[Joe Demko]

How heavy a burden it must be, to be as important as you evidently are, jmbg29.

[jmbg29]

Not at all. My pleasure.

[BigJake_old]

i agree with jmbg29, she aided terrorists, so might as well have been one in my mind. one less threat to me around. as for dancing in others blood, after all the crap they've pulled,( 9/11 for instance), and continue to pull ( mistreatment of POWS), i'll be the first to admit that sin, i'm GLAD those people die. i'm not going to open the "islam" can of worms, because i very much mistrust that whole religion as of now, the people that tote it as peaceful fall are the same ones trying to cover for the palestinian suicide bombing, its not peacefull at all.

[Bahadur]

I mean read back over the thread and look at all the little smileys and gloating commentary on this woman's death. It puts me squarely in mind of the Palestinians who were filmed dancing in the streets following 9/11 and, more recently, US casualties in Iraq.I'm a bit confused still. Are you saying that those who gloat in this young woman's death are similar to those confused Palestinians who celebrated 9/11?
Bahadur I almost agree with you.Well, that's gratifying!
I guess miricles do happen.Well, they generally don't - which is why you can never seek 100%, the whole enchilada (which was that mistake Arafat made when he rejected some 90%+ that Israel offered).

But the same goes for the Israelis. If Israelis are awaiting for a genuine Palestinian leader (one acceptable to Palestinians) who never took up arms against Israel, does not have one Israeli drop of blood on his hand or "likes" Israel, they are going to be waiting forever until the end of history.

Because of the bitterness of the conflict, you will never find a legitimate, popular Palestinian leader who never fought against Israel and thinks that whatever Israel did has all been justified.

No, instead, you look for someone - a pragmatist - who might hate Israelis for what they did to his people, but UNDERSTANDS the practical situation for being what it is (that Israel is here to stay and that it IS the most powerful military in the Middle East) and recognizes that living with Israel in peace and holding that hatred back is ultimately better for his people than continuing to have that hatred and no independence.
The problem is the PA leadership. Arafat and his henchmen have a habit of trying to create a facade to cater to the American media and politician while still doing their terrorism thing.Very true. But that game is played by all sides. Some (by no means all or even most) Israeli leaders are also adept at creating a facade that they are really willing to give peace a chance, but set up nearly impossible conditions so that they can say "See, I gave it a chance, but it doesn't work and it NEVER will, so we just kill'em all or drive'em all out of their homes."
How do you know if the "new leadership" is genuine or another trick. The PA has so far given no reason that they could be trusted.Don't know whether I can trust or not. I can only observe with some modicum of optimism. Remember, too, that that kind of thinking can be used as an excuse to reject all overtures from the other side.
I think the PA would have to earn trust.I don't see the PA as a single monolithic force. There is some significant internal dissension. The question is, do we become pragmatic enough to use that dissension to encourage certain factions and conditions to ACHIEVE A NEGOTIATED PEACE or do we use the dissension to destroy it (in the false hope that the Palestinians will then just cry uncle and voluntarily expell themselves to Jordan?

[Bahadur]

i agree with jmbg29, she aided terrorists, so might as well have been one in my mind. one less threat to me around. as for dancing in others blood, after all the crap they've pulled,( 9/11 for instance), and continue to pull ( mistreatment of POWS), i'll be the first to admit that sin, i'm GLAD those people die.Who are "they"? The young woman who died, the people who danced around at 9/11 in West Bank (or was it Gaza) and the Iraqis who are mistreating POWs are all different people. Why do they get lumped as a single "they" who "pull" "all the crap"? What "Islam" is the reason? Does it occur to you that Saddam's Ba'ath Party loyalists are secular socialists? That's what Ba'ath stands for!
i'm not going to open the "islam" can of worms, because i very much mistrust that whole religion as of now, the people that tote it as peaceful fall are the same ones trying to cover for the palestinian suicide bombing, its not peacefull at all.That is an interesting way of not "opening the 'Islam' can of worms." Sounds suspiciously like "I don't want to hear the dissenting opinion, so let's not talk about it, but let me just put out what *I* think about it."

[BigJake_old]

shoot, if you want to discuss how islam parades as a peaceful religion and then does the complete oposite, fine with me.

As for "they", they would be terrorists or their supporters. i've tried not to lump that all into one catagory such as iraqis, or muslims, or of that like, but i gets dificult. islam is "thrown in" because pretty much EVERY terrorist has used the islamic religion as their reason for hating the US. OBL & sodamn declaring jihad on us. Islam has been dragged through the mud by those jackholes, and if the people belonging to that religion would do something other than confirm my biases, maybe i wouldn't be such a bigoted ,cold hearted bastard, till that day, "they" will remain "they"

[Joe Demko]

I'm a bit confused still. Are you saying that those who gloat in this young woman's death are similar to those confused Palestinians who celebrated 9/11?

That is exactly what I mean.

[Bahadur]

BigJake:
shoot, if you want to discuss how islam parades as a peaceful religion and then does the complete oposite, fine with me.How do you define what "Islam" is in your sentence? What Osama bin Laden says it is? What socialist, non-religous Saddam Hussein says it is? Or what a peaceful Indian Sufi Islamic leader says it is?

PEOPLE, not religions, pretend to be peaceful and do the opposite. Religion is a mechanism, a tool, a cover. It can be used to heal and help or it can be used to kill and maim. And it has been used as the justification (whether healing or killing) for both.
As for "they", they would be terrorists or their supporters.Supporters of all the terrorists? So your "they" include the many supporters of the IRA in the US who give money to the "Irish" cause. Are they Muslim too?
islam is "thrown in" because pretty much EVERY terrorist has used the islamic religion as their reason for hating the US.You obviously lack an understanding of world history. I have heard terrorists of every stripe use something other than "Islam" as the reason for hating the US, including "US imperialism," "American arrogance," "US supporting my enemy," "for the liberation of the masses," "freedom" and ad naseum.
OBL & sodamn declaring jihad on us.Yes, but neither OBL nor Saddam speak for all or even most Muslims. Saddam isn't even a real Muslim (he is a secular socialist).
Islam has been dragged through the mud by those jackholes, and if the people belonging to that religion would do something other than confirm my biases, maybe i wouldn't be such a bigoted ,cold hearted bastard, till that day, "they" will remain "they"How do you figure that other Muslims haven't done something other than confirm your bias? Did you ever notice that people with biases tend to "tune out" evidence that disprove their biases?

The news media isn't exactly a good source for repudiating your bias, because news media often chases the sensational ("WE HATE AMERICA!") than calm and reasonable, which is boring ("We condemn the terrorists - they are not true Muslims like us, who seek peace").

If you are drawing your bias about Muslims from personal acquaintances, perhaps that says more about the kind of people with whom you surround youself, rather than Muslims.

*I* certainly know patriotic, well-educated, rational, secular Muslims (Shi'ite immigrants, in fact) who love this country, detest OBL and terrorism, and have children in the US military (don't know if they are in Iraq now). Does that mean all Muslims are like that or does it say more about the type of people with whom I surround myself?

[CMichael]

No, instead, you look for someone - a pragmatist - who might hate Israelis for what they did to his people, but UNDERSTANDS the practical situation for being what it is (that Israel is here to stay and that it IS the most powerful military in the Middle East) and recognizes that living with Israel in peace and holding that hatred back is ultimately better for his people than continuing to have that hatred and no independence.

The PA has shown that for years they have created a facade for the press and in reality has been encouraging and executing terrorism.

Why should anyone believe them? They have shown that they have consistently manipulate this way? Wouldn't Israel be extremely foolish to trust them for some vague promises yet again?

I have yet to see any evidence that the PA in any way wants peace. It seems to me that they are trying to meet Pres. Bush's demands without it really have any meaning.