Big Billy would still be here, if not for conceal-and-carry


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Desertdog
May 20, 2005, 01:14 AM
From these two reports it is hard to believe they are stories of the same shooting. Story 1 is anti-gun and story 2 seems reasonable, and probably accurate. Surprising they are printed by the same paper.


Harry Kaiser: Big Billy would still be here, if not for conceal-and-carry
Harry Kaiser
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5411241.html

I write this on May 17, the day of Billy Walsh's funeral. "Big Billy" was the bouncer at Nye's Polonaise Room who was shot and killed last Thursday by a customer he had to kick out. At the funeral, Billy's family and friends celebrated the life of one of the kindest men that any of them probably ever knew.

I am just so angry that he is dead.

Every state legislator probably already knows that a conceal-and-carry permit holder killed Billy Walsh. They know that Billy didn't do anything wrong, that he's dead because the guy didn't like getting kicked out of Nye's.

They probably already know that Billy leaves behind three teenage kids. But every single one of them needs to know that Billy worked three jobs to help support them. He taught them how to bowl, and then came in to work bragging about their league scores. I've never seen a prouder parent than Billy when his son Billy IV was in the musical at his high school.

He took those kids to every movie he could afford, even the horrible ones that no self-respecting adult could sit through. Six feet 4 and somewhere north of 400 pounds, Billy once told me with a straight face how much he liked the movie "What a Girl Wants." But then, he also defended the artistry of movies like "Bio-Dome."

Lawmakers should also know how hard Billy worked to be the hospitable face of Nye's, the one that every guest after 9 p.m. saw on the way in, and on the way out. They should know how dedicated he was to the owners and staff, making sure that the bar was safe for everyone in there. They should know how much those guests and staff loved him. They should even know that he was the No. 1 fan of the UNC Tar Heels. Anything that would humanize him to someone who can make something happen, because while Billy knew an awful lot of people, they weren't really movers and shakers.

We miss him now, and some of us are left to wonder if anyone sane realizes how unnecessary it is for him to be gone. If anything will change.

I wouldn't be writing any of this if Billy hadn't been shot. Ever since conceal-and-carry passed, however, I have feared some awful crime of convenience, especially involving alcohol. I know that conceal-and-carry is in front of the Legislature right now as lawmakers try to make it technically constitutional. I would like to argue against it coolly, cleanly and rationally. But I'm just so angry.

I thought -- why do you need to be clean and cool to argue against putting more guns on the street? What's rational about making it more convenient for people to instigate violence? I know how defenseless we all feel because all the "bad guys" have guns. But people have to start standing up and saying that we don't want the principle of self-defense to devolve into a kind of vigilantism, where everyone is packing, only because the "other guy" might be a criminal.

Everyone knows that "Guns don't kill people; people do," and that "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." But it's not too late to return to a time where we only had the truly criminal-minded to fear, without potentially adding to the list everyone we tick off on the street or on the highway.

How many innocent lives has conceal-and-carry saved? We now know of at least one killing that might have been prevented without it. That killer wasn't the first person to threaten to come back and show the bouncer that he wasn't going to be "pushed around."

In a fistfight, Billy would have had better-than-average odds. How many more innocent people will be recklessly killed by conceal-and-carry permit holders before Minnesotans say we do not want an environment where guns are everywhere, just waiting for a temper to be lost? If it requires legislation to defeat conceal-and-carry, they can call it "Big Billy's Bill."

Harry Kaiser is a graduate student in education at St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia. He worked with Billy Walsh for four years as assistant general manager of Nye's Polonaise Room.


Now for a truthful sounding report on the same shooting.


Bouncer shot after forcing man from bar
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5401543.html

A man thrown out of Nye's Polonaise Room in northeast Minneapolis returned a short time later Thursday night and shot the bouncer who ejected him once in the back, leaving him on the sidewalk in front of the lounge, according to witnesses and police.

A suspect, who was rescued shortly after the shooting from the Mississippi River near the 3rd Avenue Bridge, was taken into custody early today. He was being treated at Hennepin County Medical Center for hypothermia.

A witness held the bouncer's hand on the sidewalk outside the restaurant and bar at 112 E. Hennepin Av. until paramedics arrived. At press time, police would not release the bouncer's condition.

A man who was at the bar when the shooting occurred said he ran to the front when someone told him there was a shooting victim outside.

"The dude was lying on his back," he said. "There were no cops or EMTs yet, so I grabbed his hand. He was lying in a pool of blood. I asked him what his name was. Somebody said Billy. I said, 'Come on, Billy.' He was conscious enough to look at me."

James Keller of Minneapolis said he was outside the bar smoking a cigarette when he saw the bouncer toss the man out of the lounge. "He was clearly not pleased," Keller said of the man who was removed from the bar. Keller returned to his friends inside the bar and did not witness the shooting when the man returned about 30 to 45 minutes later.

Matt McKinney

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Alex45ACP
May 20, 2005, 01:33 AM
Great, now let's look at how many concealed carriers do things like this. Here in FL, less than 1% have had their permits revoked for committing a crime, and not even necessarily one where a gun was involved. I'm very sorry that this happened, but come on :rolleyes:

Preacherman
May 20, 2005, 01:41 AM
I don't see any mention in the second report of the killer having a CCW permit - can anyone confirm this?

SMMAssociates
May 20, 2005, 03:42 AM
Strictly heresay at this point, 'cause I can't recall where I read it (maybe Packing.org), but apparently:

The shooter had a permit of some kind.

The shooter had some serious mental issues.

It appears that the issuing agency dropped the ball.

"Conceal-and-carry"? Is that like "hidden guns"? Anti-provided propaganda words....

Guess the key is that the number of permit/license holders in all of the states who have committed firearms related crimes (or about any crimes at all) is pretty close to zero. Ordinary DUI's do more damage....

But the anti's love it.... :fire: They will likely get a good bit of mileage out of "the background checks aren't good enough".... :cuss:

Gray Peterson
May 20, 2005, 03:49 AM
Who cares what this idiot thinks?

Permit to Carry is the actual name of the law. It is not a "conceal and carry" law.

bratch
May 20, 2005, 04:08 AM
A 30 to 45 minute lag between the toss and the shot doesn't sound like a spontaneous act of violence to me. Sounds like he went to his car/house got a gun and came back. Would he have shot him right then if he had a pistol on his persons? Who knows doesn't seem to matter either.

What do you think the ratio of good shoots are to bad shoots for CCW? Thats not even taking into account the reactions of merely pulling it and the perp fleeing.

Ohh yeah ask Dimebag how he feels about carrying in a club.

Sindawe
May 20, 2005, 04:29 AM
Ohh yeah ask Dimebag how he feels about carrying in a club. For our fellow members who are not familiar with what happend to Dimebag and four others that night, since we don't all have the same taste in music.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1494653/20041209/damageplan.jhtml?headlines=true

Selfdfenz
May 21, 2005, 08:27 AM
While this reporter was wagging his finger he very well might have considered the root cause of the problem just may have been one of the fluids they keep in all those bottles at Nye's Polonaise Room in northeast Minneapolis.

Why the permit and not the booze?

S-

Waitone
May 21, 2005, 09:47 AM
So a guy gets tossed from a bar. He gets himself a gun, comes back, and shoots the guy who tossed him.

Yep! First time that happened.

Someone, did the tossee have a carry permit. I don't see it.

ThreadKiller
May 21, 2005, 10:00 AM
Same old story. More alcohol fueled violence. Guns get the blame.

Maybe it's time for alcohol consumption permits?

Tim

R.H. Lee
May 21, 2005, 11:06 AM
Whether the guy had a permit or not, it sounds like premeditated first degree murder to me. Of course his defense counsel could go for 'diminished capacity' if his blood alcohol level was over the limit. Guns and alcohol or other mind altering mood affecting chemicals don't mix.

Cosmoline
May 21, 2005, 11:24 AM
Harry Kaiser is a graduate student in education at St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia

There you go.

gunsmith
May 21, 2005, 03:37 PM
well CA law anyway.

Little known among "bouncers" here in CA but if he had done that to me I would just press charges!
Once a security (bouncer) guard lays a hand on you he is required to hold you for the police,if not it's unlawfull detention.
Too many "bouncers" feel it's ok to "toss" people and they need better training. If the guy had been smarter he could have pressed charges for assault and sued for medical damages.
If the "bouncer" was smarter (or trained better) he would be alive.
Just because your "Big Billy" doesn't mean you are smart enough to handle security/police work.

Lobotomy Boy
May 21, 2005, 05:33 PM
More info on this can be found here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=139363

And here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=138789

And here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=384684

And here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=384179

And here:

http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/10179/

And here:

http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/10181/

And here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joelrosenberg/

And, well, you get the idea. Most every fact of this case has been discussed in one of the above threads.

Bruce H
May 21, 2005, 05:54 PM
Harry Kaiser has a fine career ahead of him at Newsweek.

SMMAssociates
May 21, 2005, 06:03 PM
I had an LEO friend out in CA who absolutely hated "Security" folks until he got to know me and realized the folks in OH have some standards for armed Security....

Training is where it's always at.

Unfortunately, referring to the Dimebag incident, OH's Concealed Carry laws forbid just about anybody but LEO's from carrying in bars, resulting in a couple of deaths in Columbus that night. At least one responsible individual was there with a CHL but was obeying the law and didn't have a weapon. He was close enough to smell the gunpowder....

A passing LEO broke it up, but not soon enough.

Back on topic: The incident we're discussing sure sounds premediated to me, although diminished capacity or some such ('cause he was drinking) may apply. That he had a license doesn't really matter. 'Course, the anti's will not agree with that sentence. :fire:

My never-quite-not-hungry dog is still waiting for the blood to run in the streets, and that AR-15 on the web site hasn't yet jumped out of it's corner and killed anybody. To complain about that guy having a license is rather like complaining that some idiot who ran one of those "Incredible Police Videos" chases (or whatever the show is called this week) had a driver's license.

(OK, so the dog is only about 8 months old.... If it lands on the floor it's his....)

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