opinions about Massad Ayoob

[Snowjob]

My exposure to Ayoob is fairly recent, and in spite of many positive references to his writings about tactics, I have noted some opinions contrary to the opinion I had originally begun to form. Would you mind sharing your thoughts of like and dislike?

[Cosmoline]

Someone who's written as many books and articles as Mas is bound to say things some people disagree with. I disagree with several positions he's taken. But he's still a very useful source of information.

[El Tejon]

LFI-1 is the best return of your gun skul tuition around. He covered more about self-defense than 3 years of law school and the bar exam. I highly recommend it.

However, some of Mas' concerns/what ifs/possibilities, inter alia, e.g. handloaded ammo, are just that "concerns." I put no legal weight behind them.

Some disapprove of his language. It is very profane, but done for a reason.

He has interesting observations on long weapons, but I would not recommend those classes as your only class.

Different schools stress different things. Want to study engineering? Go to Purdue (Go Pocketprotectors!) not Indiana. Not to say Indiana is a bad school, just that it does not teach engineering. :D

Gun skuls are no different. LFI is the shield, many others are the sword.

[The Rabbi]

Ayoob is the foremost shooter, instructor, educator, and expert on guns around. If you dont believe me just read his The Gun Digest Book Of Handgunnery.

[KONY]

Ayoob is the foremost shooter, instructor, educator, and expert on guns around. If you dont believe me just read his The Gun Digest Book Of Handgunnery.

My only experience with Ayoob has been through the articles he's published in various gun rags as I have never attended one of his classes nor read one of his books ... thus far, I think it would be foolish to ignore any of his advice, especially in the legal realm as his credentials in this arena seem paramount.

That said, I think it would be equally foolhardy to blindly take his advice, or anyone else's for that matter, without first cross-referencing it with other expert opinions (yes, there are others out there) and good ol' fashioned personal logic. This is how I treat just about any new piece of information I receive, especially if the consequences of taking/ignoring the advice are considerable.

[pax]

I have taken LFI-1 and am slated to take LFI-II this summer. I wrote a review of LFI-1 that was published in Women & Guns this past January.

My thoughts about Mas Ayoob? First off, on a personal level: he's a nice guy, but a study in contradictions. An avowed feminist (yes, really), one of his more popular books (Stressfire) contains some decidedly out of date opinions about female capabilities. (Glad he's since updated that set of opinions anyway!) A man of strong professional opinions, in person he is surprisingly easy to engage and is very open to evidence proving the opposite of his expressed opinion.

His resume is impressive. Not just the sheer volume of his work, but the breadth of it, is surprising. His professional associations and recognitions are certainly convincing -- but more convincing is listening to him talk on legal issues related to use of force. He doesn't just give opinions, he follows those opinions with legal cites, anecdotes, references and citations to back his opinions up. And the citations are obviously right at the tip of his tongue. Whether you agree with him or not, Ayoob knows his stuff.

His language is foul, shocking, annoying, and completely unnecessary. Yeah, I know he does it for a reason, but in my opinion the reason is poorly thought out -- but I will add that he puts on a heckuva show and that the language, disgusting though it is, is one way of keeping people awake for long hours listening to lectures on a grim subject.

His jokes are equally as offensive as his language. Perhaps the most annoying drawback of listening to the lectures in LFI-1 is that they were liberally spiced with the same ain't-sex-funny joke, over and over and over again. Yeah, sex is funny. And you could tell he'd put a lot of thought into mixing the jokes up, equally offending (in no particular order) lawyers, policemen, ordinary citizens, homosexuals, straights, whites, blacks, asians, women -- you name the group, he's got a joke to offend them. I asked him about it after class and his comment was classic Ayoob, something along the lines of, "I cannot avoid offending some people, so I try to make sure everyone is equally offended. It's kind of a PC thing." (That quote is NOT verbatim, but is the gist of what he said.) All very well and good, but you know what? No matter what joke he was telling, his punch line was sex in one flavor or another. It got wearying.

But grumbles about his style are really beside the point.

When Ayoob expresses an opinion, I may not always believe it but I always take it seriously. He knows what he's talking about, more often than not.

pax

[KONY]

Pax, that was well-stated assessment. Thank you!

I think a controversial stance Ayoob has taken is that 147 grain 9mm ammo is worthless. Upon cross-referencing this advice, I found it to be data-driven and well-intentioned but dated. Not sure if he has since changed his stance on this issue.

[dave3006]

Ayoob the boob. That says it all.

[Preacherman]

I like Mas, and have taken LFI-1, -2 and -3. I've also trained at Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy, with the Miculeks in Shreveport, etc., and all instructors, without exception, spoke highly of him and recommended his courses (just as he had recommended theirs to me earlier). If you're interested in my in-depth review of LFI-2 and -3, see here (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=128527).

Basically, I recommend to every novice shooter wanting some decent training that they attend LFI-1 as their first course. Mas correctly describes this as a course in the environment of self-defence, rather than a simple shooting course: you'll shoot less than at other schools, but cover a heck of a lot more about the psychological, sociological, legal and other contexts of the use of lethal force. Invaluable stuff, and very thought-provoking. After LFI-1, then it's time to go to a pure "shootin' school" for more firearm-specific training. At Mas's recommendation, I chose Thunder Ranch's Defensive Handgun 1 course. You can also do more handgun training with LFI, of course: they do have courses designed for this.

All in all, I recommend him highly.

[pax]

Ayoob the boob. That says it all.
No, actually, it doesn't say much at all.

It tells us you don't like him. But it doesn't tell us why you don't like him. It doesn't tell us what you think he's wrong about, what you think he's mistaken about, what you think he's overstated, and what (obviously tiny) subset of his opinions you might agree with.

All it says is that you know how to make a cheap, stupid, and hardly original play on 'naughty' words.

pax

[FPrice]

pax: Several hundred (close to 1,000 maybe?) words detailing personal experience and analysis of Ayoob and some of his good/bad points.

dave3006: Seven words. No concrete observations.

pax: Careful analysis and discussion of said good/bad points.

dave3006: Cheap personal shot. No back-up or justification.

To paraphrase Viper (Tom Skerritt) from Topgun, "I guess that just about covers analysis of Ayoob.".

[centac]

He is an expert in a field which has no concrete definition of what constitutes an expert. There is no yardstick to measure how "good" or "bad" someone is in teaching defensive firearms.

I am sure that anybody can teach something of value, even if it is what not to do.

[mnrivrat]

A saying I once heard was " Take what you can use, and leave the rest "

I've found this to be good advice when dealing with pretty much any "expert" in their field. Most everybody has something to learn and something to teach . Presentations may vary in palatability , but good information is always good information, and Ayoob has enough of it to pay attention to.

PS: I dislike the word "expert" as it involkes some sort of infallibility . Good information is good information rather I provide it, you provide it, or the expert provides it.

[rwc]

I spend a lot of money on experts (in an unrelated area). You can obtain an opinion on just about any topic from an expert. What makes someone an expert? A combination of training and experience, yadda, yadda...

I imagine that there are any number of THR regulars who could qualify as an expert in court on their area of interest. The scene from "My Cousin Vinny" where Marisa Tomei (sp?) provides her opinion on the car is a pretty good example of what makes an "expert." I.e. - she knew what the heck she was talking about.

[JShirley]

I have viewed Ayoob with a jaundiced eye since a lady on another forum, some years ago, complained of sexist action on Ayoob's part towards her.

No, I wasn't there, but people who have an over-fixation about sex concern me, especially when I'm relying on them for good judgement in training.

John

[peteinct]

Hi, I never took a class from him or any one else to compare him with but I have read many training books by differing authors. His book "In the Gravest Extreme" is the one I recommend first to any person who is thinking about a CCW permit. Some of his opinions seem to tick some gun people off, first about using throw down money to get out of trouble before you have to shoot and secondly his opinion that you should not use handloads as self defense rounds due to legal concerns.

I think his concern about legalities and how a shooting will play in court is his strength and what sets him apart from other writers and trainers.
pete

[bakert]

Profane, opinionated, and probably a bit overbearing but very knowledgable and sharp!!
Baker

[CAS700850]

I've not had the pleasure of taking one of his courses, or meeting the man in person. My opinion is based upon years of reading his articles,books, and seeing a cupe of his videotapes.

I see him as a very learned man, with vast knowledge about both shooting, and the law regarding the use of deadly force. He is obviously well regarded in the area, as he has been permitted to testify as an expert witness in the field.

My personal problem stems from his writings. I have yet to see an article in which a prosecutor is written of in terms other than negative. I can understand that, from hs perspective as a defense witness, he has seen many prosecutors that may have been motivated by politics, etc., but there actually are prosecutors out there who don't give a hoot about politics, know which end of a gun is which, and recognize a valid defensive shooting when we see it.

Rant done. Thank you for listening.

[30 cal slob]

I'm an LFI alum too.

I can tell you what opinions I've formed of him based on my readings of his extensive works and interactions with him in a training and classroom setting.

I personally like and respect the guy. He has a bawdy "street" sense of humor, which I think livens up a weighty and at times ponderous subject matter (judicious use of deadly force).

You'd think in a previous life he was a standup comedian or something like that. I've noticed that some of the more straightlaced male, female, and (possibly) gay students might have been offended by his crude jokes. To which I might say ... it's just a joke. Get over it.

I have never seen Mas act inappropriately toward women.

In any case, I don't believe his style detracts from his main message.

Regardless of what you might think of his recommended techniques and the substance of his classes - it's obvious that the man CARES DEEPLY about YOU -- the law-abiding armed citizen and wants to see that YOU don't get in any trouble - either with bad guys or the law.

Massad makes the conscientious gun owner THINK RESPONSIBLY before he/she straps on a piece and walks out the door.

I personally think the world is a better place with him in it.

-slob

p.s. if anyone can remember Mas' "glock-in-the-microwave" joke, please PM to me.

[Trebor]

I have taken LFI-1 and am slated to take LFI-II this summer. I wrote a review of LFI-1 that was published in Women & Guns this past January.

You wrote that? Nice review.

[Trebor]

I've taken LFI 1 and LFI 2. I think LFI 1 is the best all around class for anyone who considers using a gun for self protection. It's what every CCW holder should know BEFORE they strap on a gun for the firs time.

LFI 2 was good, but wasn't the same experience as LFI 1.

Mas is a controversial guy. Yet, I've only ever run across one person who actually took LFI 1 and didn't think it was worth it. I respect that person's opinion more because they actually went into the class with an open mind and didn't base their judgement on second hand knowledge. The majority of his detractors have never personally met the man, much less taken his class.

[buzz_knox]

I took Judicious Use of Deadly Force from him, as well as LFI-2. If the goal is to learn how to shoot effectively, there are better schools. If they goal is to learn when to shoot, and how to deal with the aftermath, there are none better to teach you than Ayoob.

[GEM]

I took LFI-1 in the same class as Preacherman. There are two dimensions to my answer.

1. Was the class informative and worth my time? Yes, quite definitely. I learned a great deal. Do I regard Ayoob as definitive on all questions. No, I don't. As a trained researcher, I evaluate everything and don't take anyone's authority as conclusive. There is too much of the appeal to authority in the gun world. Cooper said, Ayoob said - etc. One must be a student.

2. Is Ayoob perfect in all personal relations and can he be offensive to some? No, he isn't and Yes, he can. Some folks might not appreciate their experience with him because of some aspects of his behavior.

I've had another great teacher who as a person was really not up to par - so one has to make their own choice about dealing with the person.

[Spot77]

He came to Maryland this year to testify in favor of ccw.

We paid his expenses (travel, hotel), but he charged no fee.


Seems like a good enough guy in my book.

[torpid]

Whatever your opinion of Mr. Ayoob, I think we can all come to a consensus and agree on one thing- the man's name is sure fun to say!

Massad Ayoob!


.

[pax]

Trebor ~

Thanks. :)

pax

[Sean Smith]

Yeah, I know he does it for a reason, but in my opinion the reason is poorly thought out

Just out of curiousity, what IS Ayoob's justification for his naughty language, anyway?

[buzz_knox]

The stated justification is that foul language is the language of the street, and you might as well get used to it rather than be distracted by it later.

[Sean Smith]

Huh.

I'm kind of two minds about that. One is that a smart instructor tailors his instruction to his audience; if a reasonable person leaves your class with a bad taste in their mouth, you've generally done something wrong.

The other thought is that we are talking about having to KILL PEOPLE, which ought to be orders of magnitude more offensive than puns involving vaginas, or whatever.

[Arc-Lite]

I have taken his classes, the data was good, and his language and jokes were just fill, the first few jokes, and language just got a smile, the direction of the jokes and language was all the same ....I tuned in, collecting the good.... and tuned out, the fill...allot like many conversations of today.

[pax]

I'm kind of two minds about that. One is that a smart instructor tailors his instruction to his audience; if a reasonable person leaves your class with a bad taste in their mouth, you've generally done something wrong.

The other thought is that we are talking about having to KILL PEOPLE, which ought to be orders of magnitude more offensive than puns involving vaginas, or whatever.
Sean ~

That's my reasoning too, but there's something else.

I think the real issue should be context. In the context of a street encounter, foul language should be neither shocking nor distracting. That's one of the many advantages of doing realistic role play and FOF exercises. Foul language definitely belongs there, because it'll be there in the real life encounters role play is designed to mimic.

While becoming inurred to foul language in the context of a confrontation is a Good Thing, I don't think the foul language has any place in the classroom. The idea of a seminar or lecture is to impart information so that it sticks in students' brains. If, say, 15% of the students are so distracted by the language that they fail to hear the message, then the teacher has failed those students.

But, as I said in my first post, Ayoob puts on a heckuva show. And part of his job at the front of the room is to keep people awake. He does that.

pax

[Lawyerman]

I am scheduled to attend one of his courses later in the year. I want to see for myself what he's all about. I have made a few judgements, fairly or not about some of his opinions. He worries WAY too much about being sued/prosecuted in my opinion.

Where I live, about the only way you are going to get in trouble for shooting some scumbag is if you do a Bernie Goetz on him and give him a coup de grace as he's face down on the carpet. It's just not a concern, here a man's home is his castle and the juries and DA's for the most part understand the difference between scumbags and citizens. We had a guy last year that shot a burglar in his business, they put him on the 6:00 news as a freaking hero!

At a minimum I believe you can survive either possibility anyway. Millions of people are sued in this country every year, I know, I have sued a couple hundred in my career as a lawyer. It isn't the end of the world in most cases. Secondly, millions of Americans have or will enter the prison system in this country and the vast majority of them live to re emerge into society in some shape or form. So, you CAN survive being sued, you can survive jail. You are much less likely to survive some scumbag who is sticking a pistol in your ear. Fight and win, the rest will take care of itself but at least you will be around to see the outcome in any case.

[Arc-Lite]

Lawyerman.... I am sure your wise enough, to know...just let him talk, in this class.... specific questions are good...to general and the class gets off base. There is a major difference between wisdom and knowledge, and I am glad the great state of Texas... knows this difference.

[buzz_knox]

Where I live, about the only way you are going to get in trouble for shooting some scumbag is if you do a Bernie Goetz on him and give him a coup de grace as he's face down on the carpet.

One of the things Mas will teach you is that what you just described is a myth. IIRC, the evidence showed that Goetz couldn't have done this. Instead, Goetz talked himself into the story when he heard the police describing him as a cold-hearted killer, etc., and Goetz essentially imagined this was how things went down.

[Lawyerman]

Well, that's interesting but it doesn't change my opinion. In the Texas Panhandle as long as you don't shoot someone in back of the head while they are face down and half dead your chances of being indicted or sued for an otherwise righteous shooting are about zero.

One of the lawyers in my office is one of the most prominent criminal defense attorneys in this part of the country. He's been on the front cover of Texas Monthly for example-having handled cases of some note. He has practiced for almost 40 years and handled many death penalty cases. Before that he was a "crimebeat" reporter for the local paper and actually went to crime scenes with the cops etc.....Heck, he was Chairman of the Texas Board of Prisons for two years, he knows a modest amount about self defense and the criminal law. He has at least 9 Thunder Ranch Certs on the wall and knows a small amount about weapons craft as well. I have asked him several times for an example of a person from the area who was charged in an otherwise righteous shooting and he can not provide a single example.

If you do stupid things like hang out with dopers, have "relations" with other mens' wives, ride a Honda to a biker bar at 0230 on Pearl Harbor Day where you attempt to burn an American flag, then yes, you may have a problem if you have to shoot someone. But if you use a Browning Hi Power with the magazine safety removed (OH MY GOD!) and empty half a mag into some POS who just entered your place of domicile or accosted you and your lovely wife and kids in the Walmart parking lot with a shiv you haven't got alot to worry about.

[HankB]

I don't know Ayoob personally, having never met him. I believe there was a wealth of excellent information contained in his book In The Gravest Extreme.

On the other hand, I've found some of his advice to be highly questionable - for example, some years back he recommended a particular revolversmith highly, and I found, to my sorrow, that the guy simply didn't merit the accolades Ayoob heaped on him, from both workmanship and business ethics standpoints. (Insert words Art's grammaw wouldn't approve of.)

Ayoob's praise of a well-known boutique ammo brand was, well, interesting . . . more so once it leaked that he was a stakeholder in the company. Hmmm . . . no conflict of interest there. :scrutiny:

While he's failed to convince me of the horrible legal dangers of using customized guns or (shudder) handloaded ammo in a rightous shooting, his writings are thought provoking.

[Arc-Lite]

Keep in mind...he ALSO writes for gun rags, and giving anyone info, on a smith, or ammo....must be taken lightly. He has opinions, likes and dislikes.... and speaks about them... if it works cool, if not cool.... his basic data, is good...and offers more for YOU to choose between.... options are good !!!!

[PeacefulWarrior]

He makes all trainers look bad with his use of foul language.....I know it is the language of the street but it has no place in a training enviroment. I don't care how many mags he writes articles for or how many people consider him a guru he needs to wake up and smell the coffe.

[peteinct]

Lawyerman, Sure getting sued is less of a bother than dying, and less of a bother to you as its your job and you are familiar with the process. But if you take someine who is unfamiliar with being sued and is paying for an attorneys advice at 2 or 3 dollars a minute it might be a big deal. I also think that in the northeast even in new hampshire which is the most freedom oriented state the laws and judicial establishment are tougher on gun owners than in Texas.

Massad Ayoob wrote a case study in which a florida cop was sued because he modified his pistol in some way. I don't remember the details. The deep pockets of the municipality made it worth while to try to get some money.

I may be wrong but I can picture being financially wrecked even though I was in the right.

pete

[Texian Pistolero]

I think that the "overkill" on getting sued has some benefits.

Threatening people's wallets is one sure way to get thier attention, and hopefully discouraging them from doing something very stupid like capping a teenage kid going out the back door with the stereo.

The kid may deserve it, but it is NOT worth the hassle.

Fact is, the prosecutor wants to win, and will use any trick to do so.

I was on a jury where the prosecutor made the following statement,

"If he had not been restrained by his brother in law, who was expertly trained in hand to hand combat by the U.S. Army, the defendant actually WOULD have hurt somebody!"

The brother in law was a COOK at Ft Hood! I happenned to know that the Army spends little or no time teaching hand to gland to 11B, much less cooks!

I chuckled, which got me a dirty look from the judge, but the little old ladies on the jury bought it.

[Lawyerman]

Again, I don't know about everywhere but in Texas there isn't a whole lot that you stand to lose even if you are sued. I would wager that 90% of the folks on this forum are essentially judgement proof if living in Texas. How's that? In Texas:

1. You can't take someone's homesteaded dwelling to satisfy a civil judgment-their home. Nor can they take your home furnishings including family heirlooms- Property Code S 42.002-1 (You can't take their prepaid burial plots either) The homestead is as follows -if your family lives in the city you can exempt up to 10 acres, if they live in the country you get to exempt up to 200 freaking acres! There are actually cases where people exempted different 1 acre patches up to the 200 acres, funny thing, those 1 acre patches were all surrounding OIL WELLS!

2. They are allowed to keep one vehicle for each adult in the household-whether it's a Rolls Royce or a '72 Gremlin. S 42.oo2-9

3. They can't take your "tools of trade" S 42.002-4 (computers, plumbing equipment, wood working, electricians tools etc.....)

4. They can't take bona fide retirement savings held in a 401k or other similar plan

5. They can't garnish your wages

6. They can't take Jewelry up to 25% of the aggregate of the $60,000 personal property exemption provided for couples-30,000 for singles.

7. You get to keep two firearms (this one would hurt some!)

8. You can keep athletic and sporting equipment including bicycles S 42.002-8

And lastly, the section I love the most!

You get to keep the following animals and forage for their consumption under S42.002-10
1. Two horses, mules or donkeys and a saddle, blanket and bridle for each (Could include Secretariat or other race or breeding horse!)
2. 12 head of cattle (How about a PBR bucking bull worth a cool million?)
3. 60 head of other types of livestock (Emus?)
4. 120 head of fowl

Plus you get to exempt $60,000.00 of "other assets" of your election!

Why do you think Ken Lay and all the other scofflaws reside in Texas? You can't touch them. The guy has a $4 million dollar house and there isn't a freaking thing they can do to it!

Now I know that there are dozens of millionaires on this forum but for the average guy-the one who seems to worry the most, how much do they have beyond that that some boogeyman could get? Dang near nothing I am guessing. Aside from all of that, if you don't have self defense insurance through the NRA (which would cover costs of defense and awards of damages) and carry a pistol you deserve to be sued based on stupidity alone! The legal bogeyman has no clothes-at least in the Lone Star State!

Would it be fun to get sued? No, but then it probably wouldn't be fun to have to shoot someone either. It's not a situation of your making though. Look at it rationally and get on with your life.

[Arc-Lite]

In a life and death struggle, if you think about being sued, your helping the guy trying to kill you. You first must live threw the fight... losing a suit hurts, losing your life...only hurts for a little while. Your choice.

[Old Fuff]

I have met Mas, but only know him slightly and have never taken one of his courses. I have read some of his books and magazine articles.

All of us have opinions on different subjects that are probably based on knowledge or experience, although some are simply the product of something we've read or heard.

Mas has a considerable amount of knowledge on the defensive use of firearms, particularly handguns. He also has an extensive background as a expert witness testifying in self-defense shootings. This I think may account for some of his views concerning the legal aftereffects of a shooting and proving justifications. In this area he has "been there and done that." Given this, his opinions should be carefully considered, but not necessarily accepted without question. His voice is one among many. Listen carefully to all of them and then make up your own mind.

[olyAR73]

If I'm ever tried by 12 for putting a dirt-bag away I hope Mr. Ayoob is an expert witness for the defense. :o

[Lawyerman]

Agreed, his knowledge of the dynamics of shootings and status as an expert witness are second to none.

[Hawkmoon]

Well, I just want to thank Pax for her review of his class. I was considering signing up for one. However, the fact that when I called over a year ago and was promised an updated schedule that still has not arrived together with this new revelation that he's a guttermouth in class ... I'll find another instructor, thanks just the same.

If I want to hear street talk, I'll take a walk on the street. If I'm paying good money for a class intended to teach me about the legalities of self-defense with a firearm, I expect to be taught in good English, not guttermouth street talk.

[Shawn Dodson]

As someone else already mentioned, I take appropriate bits & pieces and discard the rest.

I have serious concerns about Ayoob's credibility, particularly what appear to be dishonest claims he's published in regard to his expert testimony in Christine Hansen v FBI.

[pax]

Hawkmoon ~

Please don't get me wrong! I think Ayoob's LFI-1 is one of the bestest classes out there. It is jam-packed with information you simply are not going to get anywhere else. Every spare second of the class is positively crammed with useful knowledge, provocative ideas, and simple things you can do right now to protect yourself if you're ever involved in a shooting.

That it comes wrapped up with foul language is unfortunate, but I'd hate to think anyone missed out on the good stuff because of it.

pax

My uncle ordered popovers
from the restaurant's bill of fare.
And, when they were served,
he regarded them with a penetrating stare.
Then he spoke great Words of Wisdom
as he sat there on that chair:
"To eat these things," said my uncle,
"You must exercise great care.
You may swallow down what's solid,
BUT...you must spit out the air!"
And as you partake of the world's bill of fare,
that's darned good advice to follow.
Do a lot of spitting out the hot air.
And be careful what you swallow.
--- Theodor Seuss Geisel

[Double Maduro]

I don't always agree with everything he says, but if I am ever charged with a crime or civil liability involving a gun, I want him on my team as an expert witness. At the very least I want him to consult with my attorneys.

DM

[Elmer]

It is amazing what kind of legend one can become if you have enough ink.

Most of the opinions here are based only on information wriiten by him.

He's cut from the same cloth as Marshall and Sanow.

[JohnKSa]

In a life and death struggle, if you think about being sued, your helping the guy trying to kill you. Actually, if you're thinking about being sued, it's not a life or death struggle and thinking about being sued is probably exactly what you need to be doing.

Besides, from what I've read by M.A. he mostly pushes pre-preparation, not in-depth self-examination at the moment of truth.

Some of his stuff is good, some not so good. A good bit of it is oriented towards making you think about things that most people don't think about until AFTER they're in a jam. I think that's good.

Elmer,

Try to become a nationally recognized expert witness--you've got a pen and ink. Get back to us when you've made it.

[The Rabbi]

Personally I would be turned off by someone with that much ego-power coupled with his presentation "style" (or lack thereof). Any good he might have to offer I would discount to nothing. Fortunately there are trainers out there who are probably every bit as good and lacking the objectionable bits. For someone who can look past the faults then great. But for me it would be a waste.

[buzz_knox]

Well, that's your loss. But I'd suggest actually training with him before condemning his style "or lack thereof." Mas may have a lot of issues, but there's a lot of good information that comes through. And there's as much self-depracation in his humor and comments as there are ego boosts.

I will say this, though, about the comments of Mas being an equal opportunity offender in terms of his comments. During 7 days of classes taught personally by him, he ragged on lawyers (which the lawyers in the classes did as well), he ragged on cops (again, accompanied by the cops in the classes), Jeff Cooper (in the context of a demonstration, followed by a lecture on how you had to train with Cooper as he's the one the grand master of the field and if you didn't train with him, you were missing out on a chance of a lifetime), and himself. He made no derogatory remarks based on race, religion, sex, creed, whatsoever.

[The Rabbi]

As I say, there are many trainers out there. I am sure most of them are excellent. But different students will be motivated by different styles and I think if someone has an issue with Ayoob's style he would do better going elsewhere.

[buzz_knox]

True, but I don't know of anyone else who teaches what Mas does. The general rule is that if you want to learn how to shoot, you go to Smith, Awerbuck, Farnham, Cooper, etc. If you want to learn when/why to shoot, and what to do before and after, you go to Ayoob.

[Sleuth]

Many, many years ago, I had a personal conversation with Mas. He told me he used to write for the Karate Magazines, and then he found the gun "rags". He would get a gun, write a positive article about it, then write another article for another mag calling it junk (under one of his other pen names), get paid for both, and keep the gun.

His police career has been with tiny departments, where he rarely made an arrest. How tiny? 3-5 officers. HIs shooting awards are equally dubious. He used to claim to be the New Hampshire State PPC champion. One time, at the Nationals, I asked some officers from NH about that. New Hampshire does not have a state championship. Mas invited some officers to shoot with him. He beat them, and declared himself state champ. He did the same by shooting non-competative guns in big matches, and later declaring himself the winner of a non-existant catagory (as in 2" revolver champ at the XXXX Bianchi Cup).

I have attended one of his lectures, and found him a poor lecturer, unskilled, and a waste of money.

And I write for several magazines (always under my true name), and am a certified expert witness in two Federal Districts and one State.

I feel that Mas is 90% bombast, 10% real.

[Arc-Lite]

Personally, I don't care much about anyones opinion on a brand of weapon, if he won or did not win a match...or his skill as a speaker....I was there for some new info....which I got. My liking him, or his language was not the question...nor the reason for my being there.

[El Tejon]

buzz, no remarks as to race or ethnicity? He didn't tell you about the "Syrian manual of arms" for AK47s? :D

[Anthony]

Take it from those of us who have actually met the man and taken a class from him. I took LFI-I from him in 1999 and my shooting ability went way way up as a result. Further his legal advice is extremely good. I've spoken with a local judge and an assistant DA off the record about some of his opinions and they concurred heartily.

In the 15 to 20 years of reading Mr. Ayoob I have found him to be one of the most helpful and dedicated instructors I have ever had in any subject. He stays in the classroom well after class is dismissed until the last student's question(s) has been answered. He returns my calls within a couple of days after six years to answer questions for me. When he has an opinion that is proven wrong he admits it repeatedly teaching what proved him wrong.

He has often suggested that the student TRY his technique before condemning it with the understanding that it works for him but may not work for anyone. As Mas and I are of the same height and general build, his techniques and ideas have always worked very well for me. In fact, I cannot think of a single technique I have learned from him that did not work very well for me.

Bottom line, the only reason I have not returned to LFI is finances. Once that is stabilized I am going back for several classes.

I cannot recommend him highly enough.

[Hawkmoon]

Please don't get me wrong! I think Ayoob's LFI-1 is one of the bestest classes out there. It is jam-packed with information you simply are not going to get anywhere else. Every spare second of the class is positively crammed with useful knowledge, provocative ideas, and simple things you can do right now to protect yourself if you're ever involved in a shooting.

That it comes wrapped up with foul language is unfortunate, but I'd hate to think anyone missed out on the good stuff because of it.
Pax --

I understood that you felt the class was worthwhile depite the language and off-colour humour.

I would have walked out and demanded a refund. You just saved me the hassle of a wasted day, and arguing about the refund. As I said -- if I want to hear street talk, I can step out onto the street. I refuse to pay for it.

[30 cal slob]

The Center of Mas :neener:

[Walt Sherrill]

Makes me think his heart ISN'T in the right place, after all. <grin>

[svtruth]

Your clear, reasoned, calm responses are an example to us all. Often when I post here or elsewhere, I think; WWpS, What would pax say?

[Sleuth]

I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!

I would not pay to take a course from someone who so ignores basic safety rules. Too much risk of having the instructor shoot me by accident.

BTW, he also was (at that time) eager to get into a shooting.

In my opinion, there are many, many others who teach the same basic techniques without the profanity and with professionalism. You are, of course, free to spend your money as you wish.

[pax]

svtruth ~

Thanks. You made my day. :)

pax

I can live for two months on a good compliment. -- Mark Twain

[otasan]

I've known him since 1980. He is a good writer and pin shooter.

He used to live in NH before his divorce from Dorothy Ayoob. I think that he hangs his hat in FL.

I don't know if he is still a part-time captain with Russ Lary's Grantham, NH PD. Not likely if he is in FL.

[ACP230]

I used to see him shoot at Second Chance.
He's a good shot with handgun and shotgun.
I've got a couple of his books and found them helpful and interesting.

Should have taken his class back when it was offered closer to home.
Didn't have the cash then. It's farther away and more expensive now and I still don't have the cash.

[logical]

I've not taken any of his classes, but I think I'd get tired of him pretty quick based on what I've heard. People in his "profession" need to stand out to be noticed. You can stand out by being many things...being more profane and crude than the average guy is one of the easier routes. To each his own.

I have heard he keeps a Seecamp .32 under his toupee though.

[Jeff White]

Sleuth said;
I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!

You witnessed this???

Jeff

[No_Brakes23]

I read a lot of Ayoob when I was a kid, (Dad had the stuff lying around.) Something about his writing just didn't seem right. Couldn't really put my finger on it, it just brought out the skeptic in me, even at 10 years old.

But it seems like he is full of good advice, so why throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. I am not going to ignore good info based on his interpersonal oddities, or desagreeable prose.

One thing to keep in mind is that he has been writing for so long that perhaps his work should be viewed within the context of the time in which it was written. Not to say it isn't applicable today, just that something written in 1970 might not account for a few variable that exist in 2005.

Ayoob is at the very least worth reading.

[logical]

It has never and will never cease to amaze me that people will suggest that being offensive, bigoted, or using slurs is somehow OK as long as you do it to many different groups. Think about how absurd such an arguement is.

[Specialized]

I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!
[...]
BTW, he also was (at that time) eager to get into a shooting.
I have to agree with Jeff White on this one, these claims are more than just a little incredible to me. Your posts appear to contain a fairly intense dislike of Ayoob. What you are asserting does not make sense.

Ayoob is an extremely conscientious gun handler, for one. I have seen him handle a loaded weapon in various settings (training, competition, etc), but never in an unsafe fashion. As for your statement about Ayoob "looking for a gunfight", I find this to be totally unbelievable. This guy's father, and grandfather, both had to take a life in self-defense in their lifetimes. A prominent part of the LFI-I classroom session finds Ayoob relating these facts, and his fervent desire to never be put in that position, as the guiding factors in his selection of his life's vocation! Do you expect me to believe that a guy with his history, training, and body of work is actually looking for a gunfight?

I'm including a bit I wrote in another post because I think it applies here, and because I'd like to leverage it to ask Mr. Sleuth to kindly divulge his real name to the readers of this forum so that we might judge his qualifications and body of work in the gun-writing arena as an apples-to-apples comparison to Ayoob's:
As an aside: there seem to be a fair number of people who are convinced that Massad Ayoob is some sort of total sham, with various reasons being given for this opinion. Given what I know of his background, what I've seen of his standing in the legal, law-enforcement, and military training arenas, and what I know of him personally through his classes and my own interactions with him in social, competitive, and professional settings, I find opinions of this ilk to be baseless and a total pantload. His qualifications on paper can be found here (http://www.ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=AYOOB&Category_Code=ABT) ,
and his writings and the writings about him and his expertise are known and well-respected by experts worldwide. Whether one likes it or not, he enjoys the reputation as one of the preeminent voices of truth in the areas of forensic investigation and legal ramifications of force-on-force encounters. Having said that, I believe what he, his colleagues, and other training professionals always say: each instructor/pundit/writer's opinions are just that -- opinions -- and should be weighed against other learned opinions and one's own world view. As an example, many people are fervent believers in Ken Hackathorn's wisdom, but many think that his drills are unnecessarily and unjustifiably reckless. Does that nullify his opinions, or his experience, or his ability to teach?

Maybe those who feel they know better, or feel they have to trash someone personally and repeatedly (something I was told was not allowed on this forum, by the way) in this public venue, might like to publish their own curriculum vitae and body of work so that we might objectively judge the veracity of their opinions in a like manner?
Special Note to Hawkmoon: Ayoob's use of street vernacular and off-color language is well-documented, and his stated reasoning (in the classroom portion of LFI-I) is that offended sensibilities tend to cause one to hesitate -- and hesitation during an armed confrontation is a bad thing. That said, if you do not wish to hear such things in the course of your training, may I recommend you look into classes at the Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, OH. John Benner and his instructors are consummate professionals, and are polite and patient almost to a fault. They also are up there with the best I've seen at showing their students how to survive such confrontations. Their facilities and hospitality are second to none.

[Legionnaire]

I've taken LFI-1 and LFI-2, early in my handgunning days. I thought LFI-1 was a great introductory course in its five day format: lots of good stuff on the judicious use of lethal force, and enough shooting to get me started. I thought Mas put on a good show.

LFI-2 was okay. Some more good shooting stuff, and good intro to handgun retention, disarming skills, etc. But I wanted to learn to shoot better and faster, and decided not to pursue LFI-3.

Since my LFI courses, I've taken classes at Insights and Storm Mountain. Instructors at both schools speak highly of Mas WRT the theory of lethal force. At this stage, my recommendation to new shooters is to take Mas' three-day "Judiciuos Use of Lethal Force" course--the lecture portion of LFI-1--and then take an intro shooting course from a "shooting school." On the lethal force question, I don't think you can do better than Mas. But there are better "shooting" courses out there.

All that said, put me in the camp that likes Mas. I enjoyed the classes I had with him and my interactions with him and others in my classes.

[Group9]

I don't agree with every single thing he says, but based on years of reading his articles and comments, I think I would like to take a course from him.

[XLMiguel]

IMO, one of many contemporary 'authorities' worth studying. All 'n all, I like him and I think he has a lot to learn from. "In the Gravest Extreme" should be mandatory reading for anyone contemplating a carry permit for the first time.

[Ron_Miami]

I have taken two courses from Ayoob. I consider the money well spent.

I intend to take LFI-1 again.

I met some prominent attorneys in his classes so i give Ayoob's opinions on self-defense law a lot of weight. Ayoob is mentioned a lot in Roy Black's book.

[grnzbra]

look for the LFI schedule at Lethal Force Institute (http://ayoob.com/lfi96.html)

And if an occasional but forceful use of the F word bothers you, do NOT take any of his classes. Go to Front Sight or someplace. I've never heard anyone say that Piazza uses bad language.

Personally, I don't think I'm better than anyone, so no one's language or sense of humor offends me.

[RavenVT100]

I have to agree with Jeff White on this one, these claims are more than just a little incredible to me. Your posts appear to contain a fairly intense dislike of Ayoob. What you are asserting does not make sense.

Ayoob is an extremely conscientious gun handler, for one. I have seen him handle a loaded weapon in various settings (training, competition, etc), but never in an unsafe fashion. As for your statement about Ayoob "looking for a gunfight", I find this to be totally unbelievable. This guy's father, and grandfather, both had to take a life in self-defense in their lifetimes. A prominent part of the LFI-I classroom session finds Ayoob relating these facts, and his fervent desire to never be put in that position, as the guiding factors in his selection of his life's vocation! Do you expect me to believe that a guy with his history, training, and body of work is actually looking for a gunfight?

I'm going to have to agree. That really doesn't sound like something he would do, and ditto for the "want to get into a shooting" type of thing. My dealings with him have indicated to me that he does not want to get into a shooting, and he has certainly had many opportunities to do so--and come out smelling like a rose from the legal side of things.

The fact that he basically makes his living teaching people why getting into a gunfight is a bad thing--a losing proposition all around--is beside the point.

[Jeff22]

I took LFI-1 in 2000, and Streefire Rifle and a Class on investigating officer involved shootings in 2003. I've been reading Ayoob's articles since about 1978 (back then he did a lot of writing for Law & Order Magazine, which was where I first encountered him) and I think I've read all his books. I hope to take LFI -2 later this year.

How he comes across in person seems to depend a little bit on the nature of the group. At LFI-1 he was funny and told jokes on himself and was very honest about the actuality and the limitations of his police experience (having been part time in little towns since the early 1970s -- the vast majority of his actual street police work seems to have occurred before he founded LFI about 1980 or so). At the OIS class he seemed on edge teaching cops and it seemed like he was waiting for somebody to challenge him on different topics, though nobody did. At the rifle class he did a good job of explaining some of the unusual variations in technique that he advocates, but we did have a couple of students in the class (males) who acted like groupies around a rock star, and I found that to be VERY irritating.

In lecture to a large group, when he projects his voice, the result is very irritating to some people. (I don't know how to describe it, but I once had a female officer on my department make the same observation about me!) In relating to a smaller group over coffee 1st thing in the morning (or over a Rolling Rock after class) he's much more informal and relaxed.

Some other posters on this topic have mentioned that Ayoob may exaggerate the possibility of civil action or criminal charges in response to a self-defense shooting. The political and social reality of the panhandle of Texas is not the same as the climate in the north-east or on the west coast. I believe that Ayoob stresses this so much in order to get people thinking through these issues BEFORE HAND. (It's amazing how often I still here guys at the gun club say things like "If I ever catch a burglar, I'm just going to shoot him and drag him outside" or "If I ever have to shoot a guy, I'm going to put a knife in his hand" or some other BS. I discovered long ago that there is no point in trying to correct people like this. They've worked hard all their life to be ignorant, and they're proud of it . . . ) Part of self defense is surviving the legal consequences afterwards. If you live in a part of the country where that is probably NOT a concern, congratulations, but that is not the reality for most of us., and most private citizens aren't really familiar with all the different issues or the dynamics of confrontation.

One thing I like about Ayoob's firearms instruction is that he is not dogmatic about anything. If there is a valid alternate technique for stance or some aspect of weapons manipulation, he can probably explain it and teach it. He himself favors a modified Isoceles stance but also teaches the Chapman and the Weaver, and a variety of different kneeling and prone positions. I also did find that he was very good at coaching new shooters or those experiencing problems.

Ayoob did not use a particularly large amount of profanity in any of the classes I have attended, but I've been a cop & a soldier my whole adult life and spend some time around stock car drivers when off duty, so maybe I just screen obscenity out and don't notice it . . .

I find most of his written material to be pretty good. However, he does write monthly columns for about a half dozen magazines and I suspect that sometimes he runs out of new material because some of his stuff is recycled.
And every once in a while one of his articles goes WAY out into left field.

I think LFI-1 is certainly worth doing. The instruction on the legal and psychological issues of the use of deadly force is pretty good. The firearms part (Basic Stressfire) is well done but basic. ("Stressfire" would be a good beginning level class to start out with).

So, is it worthwhile to attend LFI-1? In my opinion, yes, but I would also recommend training from other sources as circumstances permit.

[ken grant]

He turned me off when he wrote in a magazine bad mouthing Charles Askins for his adventures on the border. Charles Askins was a man among men,not only on the border but all over the world.
Mas seems to think that being P.C. is the way to go and has written so in some mags.
Askins called a spade, a spade, and he backed down from no one with different views.
I wish politicians and people with P.C. views would get out of the problems with our borders.I also wish that we had thousands of men like Askins protecting us.

[logical]

Personally, I don't think I'm better than anyone, so no one's language or sense of humor offends me.

It is possible to make a distinction between two people or express a preferance for one type of behavior over another without it meaning you think you are better than someone.

[Old Fuff]

ken grant:

I suspect this was after Askins had passed away ... :evil:

By the way, I knew him well enough to have some interesting conversations. ;)

[GoRon]

Mas shot with our group one night as a guest of one of the regulars.

He was friendly, unpretentious and a good shot (not the fastest through the stages but very good).

I didn't even know it was him for the first half of the night.

Having read his articles and meeting him in person I believe the positive reports about his classes.

[torpid]

Massad Ayoob = As a day booms!
:)

.

[30 cal slob]

Some other posters on this topic have mentioned that Ayoob may exaggerate the possibility of civil action or criminal charges in response to a self-defense shooting. The political and social reality of the panhandle of Texas is not the same as the climate in the north-east or on the west coast.

As some one who was almost charged with attempted murder by cops in a large northeast city (despite being in the right on all legal and ethical counts) following an armed encounter, let me tell you, I cannot stress to you all enough how true this is.

Remember, Mas hails from leftist New England, so his outlook is colored by this background.

Massachusetts and NYC are NOT the same as FL or TX.

[FPrice]

He turned me off when he wrote in a magazine bad mouthing Charles Askins for his adventures on the border. Charles Askins was a man among men,not only on the border but all over the world.

I think "bad-mouthing" is an incorrect term and shows a lack of reading comprehension. Most of the article is a fairly straightforward telling of Askins' adventures. And in case you have forgotten, this is the end of Ayoob's article on Askins.

" There were facets of Charlie that I wouldn't want in a cop. There was racism. There was a killer instinct, too strong, strong enough to sometimes slip its leash. Some of his shootings, if they'd been adjudicated, could have earned him "life without parole."

Yet Charlie was also the man who first organized firearms training in the Border Patrol, laying a foundation that sees that agency today as one of the world's leaders in law enforcement gunfight survival.

His tenacity, his courage, his coolness and above all his skill at arms are qualities we can all strive to emulate, though few of us will manifest them to the degree that he did.

Let that be the legacy of Col. Charles Askins, Jr. May he rest in peace."

And isn't Askins' autobiography entitled, "Unrepentent Sinner"?

[Cosmoline]

Much of his legal advice ranges from dead wrong to highly questionable. But I've found some of his articles on various firearms and techniques to be helpful and interesting. You really shouldn't be going to a gun range instructor for legal advice anyway.

[ken grant]

If Mas had used plain language instead of a writers use of a lot of words to say a little----He would have called Askins a murderer

[ken grant]

Also,Askins did not care if you were black,tan,yellow or white. If you were a bad guy and went up against him,you paid the price.
He was not a racist! Speaking the plain truth is not being a racist!

[ctdonath]

I've taken LFI-I thru -IV, plus Judicious Use Of Deadly Force and Kubotan.

Highly recommend him. LFI-I is a must-take for anyone owning guns for self-defense. Others teach how to shoot, Mas teaches how to avoid it, prepare for it, do it, and cope with the very messy aftermath.

His other courses are fun exercises in straining your personal limits, moving you firmly to the next level.

At another notable school, the head instructor had negative personal comments about Mas - BUT absolutely recommended taking LFI-I.

As for his "controversial" opinions about possible worries in the courtroom (primarily the "reloads are a legal concern" issue): I've talked to him repeatedly about it - the accusations popularly bandied about regarding his comments have been blown completely out of proportion. As someone often in a courtroom, he sees some things as potential legal problems that one may choose to reconsider - a reasonable view (contrasted with the overblown re-tellings which are then ridiculed and improperly attributed to him).

On the whole, he is a very knowledgeable, very interesting, very thorough teacher. Yes, he uses profanity generously - no more so than a large percentage of the population.

Read "In The Greatest Extreme".
Take "LFI-I".
Now.

[FPrice]

He was not a racist! Speaking the plain truth is not being a racist!

Every "racist" will tell you that they are speaking the truth. Every liar will tell you they are speaking the truth. Everyone who wants you to believe their version of the truth will tell you that they are telling you the truth and that you must believe them.

So how do you know who is telling the truth?

Believing in someone to the point of denying their warts is one of the signs of self-delusion.

Now, I did not know Col Askins, nor do I believe that many people on this forum did, besides I guess Old Fuff. But Askins' life is pretty much an open book for all of us to look at and judge. And the judgement seems to be that on the whole he was a good man with some faults.

Probably like most of us.

[FPrice]

Here's an interesting give-and-take from Glocktalk:

http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/388174-1.html

[Double Naught Spy]

Do a search here on "ayoobian" and see some of the threads that turn up. Specifically, look at the following three.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65021&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=48587&highlight=ayoobian

The first was a challenge to members to find some specific proof of Ayoob's claims and what I got was a lot of flack over suggesting such an 'expert' would be questioned. The second actually shows where Ayoob managed to show where his own notions of using the gun or ammo that the police use (to help alleviate liability problems of using ammo that a jury might otherwise find offensive) might be more problematic than using something different since he had no cases showing how ammo choice was used effectively against a good guy in a court case, causing the loss of the case. He even went on to state, "Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have nothing substantive." And yet his words have already done so much damage that people make ammo decisions based on what the local police use without knowing if the reasons the police have selected their ammo is congruent with what an individual buying ammo might need. I still hear instructors giving Ayoob's advice and it is without foundation to be valid.

The last thread and these ...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155031&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166597&highlight=ayoobian

point out specific logical and factual errors made by Ayoob in his professional publications, all gun rag stuff, where he gives legal and tactical advice. In the last, he points out how unmarked police cars have certain disadvantages. Case 6, for example, was of an off duty detective asked to drop off an unmarked car for repair. He was in plain clothes and left his gun in the office, but when a call came over the radio about trouble with a man with a gun, he responded to the scene. He was subsequently slaughtered by the man as he was totally unarmed. Once again, this is apparently the fault of the car because the officer didn't look like and officer, wasn't in police clothes, and so didn't realize that he was ballistically naked. How do you blame the car, being unmarked, as the problem for the lack of preparedness of the off duty officer? That is just stupid.

Of course, while I am baffled by such blatant errors going into print and going into print time and time again, part of the fault must also reside with the gun rags for not editing or rejecting the writing of Ayoob. Then again, American Handgunner didn't can Clint Smith for calling folks who didn't like his Thunder Ranch Special revolver, "Turd suckers." Go figure.

I don't like the revolver and I no longer take American Handgunner.

[FireBreather01]

"Much of his legal advice ranges from dead wrong to highly questionable."

I think you are going to have to provide specific examples of this - he has certainly testified in many, many courts throughout the nation and if he were that wrong his credibility would be immediately assaulted by opposing attorneys. I took LFI with several attorneys - defense and prosecution, and they were all in agreement his advice was invaluable.

He is profane, but come on, his classes aren't advertised as church socials either. His humor is pointed and barbed but get over it - are we left to sanitize society until all of its color is bleached bright white?

The information he dispenses is valuable - I personally believe everyone who carries should attend LFI or similar courses. Is he beyond reproach? - NO, who is? Take classes from him, Clint, Cooper, etc - combine with your own experiences and develop your own philosophy!

[FPrice]

I like the expression one person used,

"Your dislike of Ayoob is legendary. Even in these hallowed portals."

Old ground. Boring.

[Sleuth]

Mr. White, yes, I was one of the instructors Mas covered with his loaded (by his own admission) gun during a training confrence. I was one of the 20 or so who complained to the confrence organizers. It was the last day of the confrence, and to my knowledge no action was taken.

The comment about Mas wanting to get into a shooting was the result of conversations with several officers who had escorted Mas when he was in their cities. At different times and places, including the PPC Nationals and a national police expo, officers told me Mas would go for a ride-a-long, and later walk through the worst parts of town. He expressed a desire to 'validate' what he was teaching by getting into a (justified) shooting. So that comment is based on second hand information, from several sources unknown to each other, at different times and in different places. Based on the above, it seems believable to me. You decide for yourself. This was in the late 70's/early 80's, when he was just becoming a big name in the gun press.

This reply was long delayed because, for reasons unknown, I was not automatically notified of any reply to my post until today.

For the party who wanted to 'check my references, I choose not to publish my real name in an open forum. I you wish to persue the matter, please send me a personal message.

I served 27 years as a Special Agent for the U.S. Treasury Department, 25 years as a firearms instructor. I was selected to travel overseas to train foreign agencies. For 9 of those years, I was the Lead Instructor for Firearms and Officer Safety and Survival at our academy. Part of my mandate was the study of officer involved shootings, intigrating lessons learned into our lesson plans. I did kill someone in the line of duty, and I was sued and won the "wrongful death' lawsuit. My actions were upheld to a Circuit of the Supreme Court on appeal.

I do not run a 'shooting school', nor am I in 'competition' with Mas on writing or in any other field. I feel those who intend to spend their money should make an informed choice.

The only class I took from Mas was a large lecture at a national police expo. He was 'profane without a point', meaning he used profanity, but not to emphasise a point. At one point, he picked up a pointer, and started waving it around, again not using it to make a point. I noted a large number of attendees distracted (I could see their heads moving in sync with the pointer) from his comments. As a graduate of, and instructor of, "Instructor Development" classes, this is exactly the kind of thing we cautioned our students about. It detracts from the learning, and interferes with information transfer. I found him to be unprofessional in that setting.

I have never taken a 'small' class from him. From his writings, most (or all) of what he teaches is readily available from multiple other sources, without the distractions of the profanity others have noted.

It's still a mostly free country, spend your money with him if you like.

[Jeff White]

Sleuth,
Mr. White was my father, please call me Jeff :). Thank you for a very interesting eyewitness report. It's always good to have first hand information.

Your report will help me make up my mind about training with Ayoob in the future.

Jeff

[Trisha]

A most informative thread!

pax, Sleuth, my thanks on your information and perspectives.

[TheGoodLife]

I appreciate the honesty of those who are sharing on the thread. It does help to get so many different opinions.

I can honestly say that I wouldn't care much for the 'language' part of his classroom instruction, so the recommendation for The Tactical Defense Institute in Ohio is helpful.

I do plan to read Ayoob's books.

[Cosmoline]

think you are going to have to provide specific examples of this - he has certainly testified in many, many courts throughout the nation and if he were that wrong his credibility would be immediately assaulted by opposing attorneys. I took LFI with several attorneys - defense and prosecution, and they were all in agreement his advice was invaluable.

The biggest example is Ayoob's oft-cited maxim that handloads should never be used for self defense. His theory is that a DA or plaintiffs attorney might be able to argue that you made "extra deadly" bullets. In a self defense case, such claims would not only be out of place and illogical, they'd be completely inadmissible and irrelevant. Once the fellow is dead, the lethality of the projectile is simply not at issue. And presumably you aren't going to claim to be suprised that the man died. Self defense in a wrongful death or homicide case is about whether you faced imminent deadly force. It's not about what kind of bullets you used. All bullets are deadly.

[BigG]

I have been acquainted with the man through his writings since the late 1960s or so when he was the new kid on the block among gunwriters. Charles Askins, Jr., Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor, Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton were some of the mainstays and they usually got the more notable assignments like reviewing the latest 338 Magnum Model 70 on an African safari, or sheep hunting with a Weatherby 257 Magnum. Bill Jordan was the resident pistoleer, quick draw artiste, etc., and with Jeff Cooper and Charles Askins, Jr., Mas could not get any articles about handgunning in.

So he chose a niche that was not being filled; Forensics

Much of his advice to my way of thinking is just good fiction, but he gets articles published. I respect the man for his longevity in the field, but like any of the writers, I take what he writes with a grain of salt. I will say this: he is a far piece ahead of anybody else currently writing about guns, but that does not put him in the Elmer Keith/Jack O'Connor/Charlie Askins category. Those guys are still better and if you can get some of their old articles you will probably agree. YMMV JMTC

[ken grant]

BigG, it sounds as if we have the same views and our likes in writers seem the same. Of all you mentioned,I think Elmer and Charley were the cream of the crop. They both more or less had to make do for themselves. They were both raised poor and in hard times.
Elmer was quiet a man and didn't seem to back down from anything or anyone.
Charley was a man among men and had adventures all over the world. He even had jump wings from several different countries. He wandered all over Indo-China with just a few natives even tho it was a very dangerous place to be.
He also had a lot of shoot-outs along the border and was very effective in his job.He also had time to win the National Championship while doing it.
He was very much politicaly incorrect( Hell,so am I!!!!!),but that was a time before P.C. was even heard of. It was even before politics tried to rule law enforcement from the sidelines.
Wish we had many more like these two above men

[Cosmoline]

Actually, I'm kinda glad we don't have too many like Elmer Keith or Charles Askins :D You have too many men like that and there's bound to be trouble.

[BigG]

Ken Grant: Here's my review of Charley Askins' autobiography: Unrepentant Sinner (http://www.epinions.com/content_186327142020) You have, of course, read it? ;)

[ken grant]

Yep,sure have read it and just read your review. You hit the nail on the head with it. :D
Years ago, I had several letters from Elmer and boy were they hard to read. They were handwritten,sloppy and a lot of mis-spelled words but I loved them and kept them for years until they were destroyed by fire.
Charley had a lot more education than Elmer and Elmer had someone to redo his writing,never heard of Charley using someone else.
If we had men like these to enforce the laws and the politicians would leave them along,we would all be better off. :cuss:

[106rr]

If you read between the lines of Massad Ayoobs work on the aftermath of a shooting, you can see that he is teaching the reader how to speak in legal terms. He tries to show what actually happened and how the incident should be described in legal terms if you don't want to be convicted.
This is useful info for me and for many others. I would have enough truble trying to pay my legal bills without any misunderstandings to correct.
It is far too easy to be misunderstood in the aftermath of a shooting just by expressing your feelings.

[Missourigunner]

A very Knowledgeable and talented Individual. Mostly good advice, some to be taken with a grain of salt. Very profane, but necessary when getting his message across. all in all, highly recommend cross referencing his Ideas and statements with other sources.

[CZ52GUY]

I think that Mas may very well be one of those rare individuals that is everything both his supporters and detractors claim him to be.

I had the opportunity to take LFI-1 (a scholarship of sorts), got my materials, read "In the Gravest Extreme", and withdrew from the course. ITGE told me in a couple hours sitting about all I needed to know without the show. Why spend 4 days? Another worthy candidate was identified which was the best outcome for all I suspect.

Mas' is largely correct with his assessment of the "mood of the courts" being a consideration in this part of the country. If you get involved in a justifiable shoot here, expect legal entanglements...your life will likely never be the same (beyond the tangible realities of the event at time of occurrence). Mas' with all the collateral "stuff" (and I'll paraphrase) still believes that when necessary you should defend your life or your loved ones because they are lives worth defending. He is sometimes accused of "teaching folks to get away with murder".

The "show" can be entertaining for some and reinforces the philosophy documented by ITGE. I'm often in and out of the club house during times when he is teaching classes (I'm a range rat) and the profanity described is correct. He's an equal opportunity offender (including himself and various demographics he happens to be part of).

I've found him to be a very capable shooter and in all respects a gentleman in my interactions with him which are generally brief. He is an engaging personality and I think this thread accurately portrays who he is, a controversial figure with ideas worth investigating but best consumed with a skeptical mind.

For those considering LFI enrollment. Mas' doesn't do all the teaching. Ask before you sign up if the "Mas show" is what you are after in an LFI course. His instructors do a competent job of delivering the material (and much of it for LFI-1 is Mas' on video), but Mas' in person is a unique experience.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

[brian roberts]

Massage-A-Boob is, without a doubt, THE guy you want to review, & testify(hopefully in your favor)in court about a shooting you may be involved in.
And, he will only testify in those cases that he finds every i-dotted, & t-crossed. i've been told by those in the know that he's very good. i do think we need to take up a collection for him to get a new RUG, maybe one with an IWB for a 4" M29:cool:

Keith, was a man who had to go to work at an early age, and didn't get much "book learnin'", but he married a woman that was a school teacher, so i'm sure that was where the polishing came to his articles. if you ever read some of the very first "Handloader" magazines, you can get a sample of his handwriting, as there was the writer's signature, after every article, & the script looks like the hand didn't get much practice in penmanship.

[Lamar Jaggears]

I probably would not take a shooting class from Ayoob. I would prefer to train with Awerbuck or Tiger McKee. However, I would jump at the oppurtunity to take his Deadly Force Instructor Course. He is suppose to be the man on legal issues. Legal issues are very important from a police trainer' s viewpoint. I would think that they would be as important or more important from an armed citizen' s viewpoint.
PPCT has a good chapter on legal issues in its defensive tactics program. It has more than most of our guys want to learn. Federal court is not a pleasant experience when you are the one being sued. I have found that most of our local attorney' s do not understand use of force case law. Which is good if he is the one sueing you, however it is not a good feeling if he is the one representing the police department.

Look at what type of skill set you want to learn. Then find out where to get it.

[buzz_knox]

I probably would not take a shooting class from Ayoob. I would prefer to train with Awerbuck or Tiger McKee. However, I would jump at the oppurtunity to take his Deadly Force Instructor Course. He is suppose to be the man on legal issues. Legal issues are very important from a police trainer' s viewpoint. I would think that they would be as important or more important from an armed citizen' s viewpoint.

That's precisely what I did. LFI is a wee bit too focused on safety. In the vigorous movement drills, instructors wearing armor escorted the individual student so that if the student fell, both the student and the gun were smothered in Kevlar. This was very safe, I'm sure, but it slowed things down greatly and took a lot of responsibility off the student. Awerbuck, by contrast, has everyone moving and shooting, trusting us to be big boys and girls. Of course, Awerbuck is the only guy I've ever seen who can be on one side of the line and then on the other safeguarding all in the blink of an eye.

I felt a whole lot safer in the Awerbuck course shooting ARs on the move than in an LFI course shooting pistols.

[106rr]

I'll second the motion on Louis Awerbuck's exceptional attention to detail in his classes. He is certainly a true professional and his classes are a great bargain.
I think Mas Ayoob's specialty is somewhat different. Take Awerbuck to learn how to shoot and Ayoob to learn what to say after the shoot.

[aryfrosty]

After moving to New Hampshire a couple years back I became aware that Mas was in the area as well.
I hvae seen him several times around Concord, in gun shows and storesm but did not approach him. I really like to sit and talk with him for hours...one on one, with me absorbing everything I can.
You folks can like, love or hate him, as you wish. I have read all of his books...and I have filed them in my "look at it again" library.
I haven't walked up and introduced myself because I just ain't bent that way. Eveery person deserves their privacy and respect and one way to show respect is to not walk up and start aggravating evevry celebrity you see.
Mas, if you read this I would like to talk with you some time. I want to get into one or two of your courses in order to remain proficient with my carry stuff.
Alan Yates
29 Perley Street, Concord, NH

[FPrice]

Alan,

I haven't walked up and introduced myself because I just ain't bent that way. Eveery person deserves their privacy and respect and one way to show respect is to not walk up and start aggravating evevry celebrity you see.

There is a difference between politely walking up to someone, introducing yourself, and making a compliment on their work, and "aggravating" them. I am sure that Mr. Ayoob, in most circumstances (unless he is busy and/or pre-occupied) would certainly respond graciously.

[aryfrosty]

I'm confident that you are right. And I certainly didn't imply that he would snub me.
I am just a bit more reserved than othe people, I try to behave toward them as I would want to be treated.
It would have to be nice to go to the corner store for bread and milk without having to stop and answer a dozen questions.
Still, for my money Massad Ayoob is the go-to guy with questions about guns, gear or gunfighting.
I may never have that chance to sit down over a cup of coffee and learn everything I would like to learn about weapon handlng.
Semper Fidelis[COLOR=YellowGreen]

[RavenVT100]

I wouldn't worry about offending him. He's pretty nice to you in person.

[aryfrosty]

I actually didn't think I would upset the gentleman...my comments and concerns were my being intrusive. Just across the Alabama line from the city I worked in was Fort Payne, Alabama. Many nights Randy Owen would come into town with his little league baseball team and go to the batting cages and then to eat supper. If he opened a conversation I'd sit and talk as long as possiblw...but when he had his little guys with him they'd talk baseball, and I keft him alone.
It's just that I recognize that people who are in the public eye a lot need a respite from people.

[SHOOT1SAM]

I find it very interesting that so many of those who dislike Ayoob and wish to discredit him, very often seem to focus on his advice against the use of handloads for carry/self defense.

If his theory that a prosecutor or civil attorney could sway a jury against you because of the "more deadly bullet" you loaded is so full of crap, why did Winchester dump their entire supply of Black Talon bullets after that shooting in San Francisco?????? IIRC, it was because the bullet was perceived to be so effective, it was too deadly, and, you know, if one was even shot near you, you were dead meat.

I reload in order to shoot more/more economically. To me, the price of a box of ammunition that renders irrelevant any "more deadlier killin' bullet" claim is extremely cheap insurance. Even if this theory is never proven to be correct, who wants to be the test case for it? With the way an attorney/prosecutor can present something to a jury (and remember it was a JURY that awarded the woman $3M for spilling her own hot coffee in her crotch) it simply makes good sense to me to not give them that opportunity.

As for his recommendation against the use of 147 gr. 9mm for defensive ammo: IIRC, he stated several times that it was because the 147 gr. ammo was developed for SEAL teams, Special Forces, et.al. to be the most ACCURATE load, where they would likely be taking head shots more often than not, and expansion was not one of this load's characteristics, which of course, IS one of the characteristics one would desire in one's carry ammo. When he went on record with this, it was because in the police and civilian shootings he'd analyzed, the round was found to over penetrate, endangering others. If he's changed his stance on this round, I'm not aware of it. I wasn't aware he & Dorothy had divorced, either; that's sad, sorry to hear it.

Sam

[aryfrosty]

Shoot1sam:
I agree with your posting on M. Ayoob for many reasons. Imprimus: He knows whereofe he speaks. I have been a guset at both tables in courtrooms many times over my life and during my career. After those learning situations I develpoed what I call my reality position. Note, I said "my" position. I don't teach and I don't ever suggest anyone else do the things I do as I do them. I think they work for me.
I own and shoot many differing types of firearms. I shoot enough every year to justify that I know about what I might carry or use; But I also have a "carry gun" and "carry ammo" which I stay with. I shoot my carry gun enough to be able to testify that I am practiced with it...I can be accurate with it...and that it is a safe and unmodified, Except by aftermarket Eagle Secret Service grips. I carry it enough that if I am using it to practice and I feel that something's not "right", I take it to the gunsmith for a checkover. My carry ammo is a factory load which I can justifiably say is reliable and not a magnum or "horse" load that will continue for 5 counties after I have to use it for protection. If I have to. Same reason my home protection shotgun is prepared with low-brass rounds. Far too many times I have seen young police officers carry and use "elephant rounds" and have to sit while their lack of thought in chossing a round or weapon becomes a serious issue in a trial. Often THEIR trial. I heard an elder gun writer once say, "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight....it's the size of the fight in the dog." Same holds true for ammo. Nobody needs to impress anyone by carrying way too much gun or filling it with the wrong ammo.
My opinion. Thanks for bringing the issue to the table.

[buzz_knox]

If he's changed his stance on this round, I'm not aware of it.

Unfortunately, he hasn't. One of the arguments against Ayoob is that he contradicts himself. Well, let someone else write for 30 years or so in a changing environment and see if opinions don't change. But this is one area that the argument has some weight, as Ayoob hasn't publicly changed that opinion to account for the vast improvements in the 147 gr loads that has occurred. Right now, agencies using 147 gr Ranger are reporting great success.

[ctdonath]

Mas is exceptionally polite and gracious.

If you wish to strike up a conversation, just hand him a cold bottle of Rolling Rock at a suitable time.

[Sleuth]

"Black Talon" as a name was dropped because of the potential negative publicity. How would you like to be the first 'white' to shoot a 'person of color' (other than white) with a "Black Talon"? The ad people never thought about the press going after the shooter.

And I have been sued in Federal Court for a line of duty death. And won. And not one of the ""issues"" of the sort Mas comes up with came up. (I did not shoot the BG, so guns/ammo were not issues. Other areas were open, but the plaintiff's atty. never brought one of them up in court.) The B.S. issues were in the other sides press releases, but Federal Judges I have appeared before are far too smart for that crap.

[NHBB]

ary you live about 2 minutes from where my family lives, a little deeper in south concord closer to bow. I too have seen mas around, actually at the rite aid in mckee square right by your house. I didn't bother to talk to him either, though it was tempting.. I prefer people leave me alone for the most part, I assume he does as well out of the classroom.

[reasonable man]

You're missing the point. Ayoob uses "street talk" in his class to acclimatize students to the kind of language that might present itself in a self-defense situation. Ayoob discovered that many people are seriously distracted when forced to confront a foul-mouthed assailant. Women were especially vulnerable to this sort of intimidation. Ralph the armed robber is not going to sashay up to you in a Brooks Brother’s suit, and demand your wallet in the finest king’s English. He’s probably going to yell “Gimme your f—kin’ wallet a—hole!” If you flinch when you hear this language, you might end up on the losing end of the situation.

When I took the class, I didn’t find it objectionable in the slightest (and I’m a nearly ivy league educated professional). So he has a big ego and tells off-color jokes. Who cares. I’m not there to marry the guy. I’m there to learn something new.

[cyanide]

He cultivated a name as an "expert" as far as I know all he ever did to become an expert has published a few articles and become a "part time" Police Officer.

He goes out of his way with the horror stories , he reports on ridicules law suits against people who use firearms inappropriately ------ of course he gets paid as an expert wittiness ----------


To answer the question what do I think of him .... I disagree with a lot of his assessments

ie: light use

trigger jobs

ammo selection

firearm modifications


edit made to comply with THR forum rules.

[iliketoshootguns]

he's a businessman

[FPrice]

He cultivated a name as an "expert" as far as I know all he ever did to become an expert has published a few articles and become a "part time" Police Officer.

Luckily "as far as you know" is not the defining summary of Mr. Ayoob's reputation. He has done far more than you have given him credit for in a lot more venues than you seem to realize.

He goes out of his way with the horror stories , he reports on ridicules law suits against people who use firearms inappropriately ------ of course he gets paid as an expert wittiness ----------

1. I have never been there but from reading more than a few accounts from many different sources, the aftermath of a perfectly legitimate shooting can in fact be a horror story. Ayoob is one of the few people who try to prepare you for this. It's a matter of winning the battle but possibly losing the war.

2. No lawsuit is ridiculous if you are the one having to spend your money defending yourself. Especially if the result of losing can be hard time in a hard place.

3. He is an expert witness. I would imagine it is difficult to get that status without having many more credentials than you seem to know.

Look, I am not going to tell you that you can't criticize Ayoob. But I am going to suggest that you know what you are talking about, have some facts to back you up, and be prepared to show why you know more than he knows.

Otherwise you deserve any lack of credibility you receive.

[cyanide]

He has a large fan base , that much is clear.

Some seem to worship him as the final word it would seem.

[pax]

Zombie thread alert!~ :rolleyes:

Let me point out that since the time this thread began, Massad Ayoob has become a member in good standing here on THR. (Hi Mas!)

As a result, he enjoys the same protections against personal attacks and insults as any other THR member.

You can disagree with what he says -- vehemently, if need be -- but you may not attack him personally, nor insult him, nor smear his reputation.

Attacking other members is the short route to being shown the door.

pax

[FPrice]

He has a large fan base , that much is clear.

Some seem to worship him as the final word it would seem.

A lot of people who have been in the business recognize his expertise. If this constitutes fandom, so be it.

I gave you some hints on how to structure any criticism you may have about the man. Once again I urge you to try and outline/summarize your dislike for Mr. Ayoob along those lines and see what you can come up with.

Best wishes.

[frayluisfan]

Actually, Ayoob has answered the doubts about this in a fairly recent column. I can't find it right now, wish I could. But he discussed the case of a guy whose wife was mentally unstable and killed herself with the ultra-light .38 ammo he (the husband, not Ayoob :) ) had loaded for her. Since they had been fighting that night (the lady and the husband, not the lady and Ayoob :) ), and the ultra light load left no powder burns on her noggin, the authorities were convinced the husband had killed her and was trying to fake a suicide. The trial cleared it up, but it was very messy.

Hope this helps.

frayluisfan

[Soybomb]

I think ayoob has helped the ccw movement and perhaps made some people realize the gravity that might come with using their firearm in self defense. I do not believe I would call him a "ballistics expert" nor do I think the information he presents is always accurate even if that is nonintentional. I do not feel his work would hold up to peer reviewed journal type scrutiny.

If you're going to look for information on topics he would be writing on, it has the potential to be very important to you at some time. As with most things of that nature, I would say to seek multiple sources and then determine what you feel is the truth.

[ilbob]

I bought In the Gravest Extreme years ago. I read it every now and then.

You need to have the proper perspective about self defense shootings. Shoot if you have to, but if you can avoid it, do so.

I will not worry about hand loaded ammo being a problem in court. I think hand loaded ammo is slightly less reliable than factory (not by much) and that by itself is reason enough to use factory ammo for self-defense purposes.

I figure if I have to shoot someone, or whack them with a baseball bat, or whatever lethal force I HAVE to use to survive, I hope I can just do it cause it is better to be alive in court than cold on a slab. But if I can avoid it, I will, and I make no apologies for that to those that think it unmanly or that it encourages the bad guys.

His class was scheduled to be taught near here a few years back and I was thinking about taking it, but for some reason it got canceled.

I am completely unaccustomed to ghetto talk. I might well benefit from the application of such aggression just to get used to the idea that the words are harmless. In an encounter where your life is on the line, if some rough language causes you to hesitate, you could end up on the ground slowly bleeding out. Better to get over the shock of the language that might be used in his class.

YMMV.

[Quaamik]

Though I have not taken any of his courses, I had the occasion to hear him speak several years ago and join him and a small group of pro-RKBA activists for dinner afterwards.

His opinions seem sound, and he is a very engaging speaker. I enjoyed hearing him speak that night and the discussions afterwards. I wouldn't hesitate to take one of the LFI courses if I had the chance.

[UncleBob]

Like him or dislike him. It does'nt matter. He has helped thousands. Yes, he is a businessman. GOOD FOR HIM!!

[albanian]

Ayoob is one of the VERY few gun writers that is worth reading anymore. Most of the others either are not interesting, not good writers (often both) or are not very well informed. The main problem I have with most gunwriters is you simply can't trust what they say is the truth or even their real opinion. Money and advertisers whisper in their ears and out comes another pro-Taurus article. If you believed all the press about Taurus guns for example, you would be convinced that they are the equel or the better of guns like S&W and Beretta. Simply not true and I don't trust the gun rag writers that say it is.

Sometimes I find myself reading a gun rag (often on the crapper where they were meant to be read) and I am taken aback by a decent article. I have done this a few times and when I look to see who the writer is, it is always Ayoob. He is the one brite spot in "Guns Magazine". Often it is the only artical that I compleatly read in that particular mag.

What Ayoob has above all the rest of the writers is that he is actually a good writer and he doesn't seem to be a guy that invites trouble. From his books and articals, I get the idea that he is the underdog and will fight to defend himself if need be. Reading Cooper for example, I get the feeling that he is a bully and wants to kill anyone that doesn't agree with his narrow way of thinking.

[cyanide]

Cooper talks the rough and tumble talk of one who has been there done that.



As for the others --
The saying is if you can -- you do

if you can't -- you teach.

[Biker]

Dunno Cyanide, I teach guitar, record and play live with my band Fatback. If I had a chance to cut heads with the red-headed Devil himself in a blues guitar showdown, I'd kick that ol' Devil's ass and take home the solid gold gitfiddle.
I teach and I do, hence, others can.

Biker:)

[Preacherman]

Cyanide, you obviously have a problem with Mr. Ayoob, and (judging from your last post) with anyone except Col. Cooper.

Fine - you're entitled to your opinions.

However, read this carefully.

YOU WILL NOT IMPUGN, SLANDER OR MAKE SLY IMPLICATIONS ABOUT THE MOTIVATION, VALUE, MORAL FIBER, OR ANY OTHER ATTRIBUTE OF ANY PERSON WHEN POSTING ON THE HIGH ROAD.

If you do, your membership will be over so fast your head won't have time to spin.

This is non-negotiable, and will not be discussed further.

:fire:

[aryfrosty]

I believe that Mr. Ayoob has been accepted as an "expert witness" in shooting cases. That is harder to do than convince your buddies you speak truth. Having never spoken to Mr. Ayoob I can't tell you what his opinions are about every situation, But he has reinforced my belief that the moment to begin preparing to defend yourself in court over a justified shooting is at the exact moment you decide to carry. That preparation should influence how often you practice, as well as the weapon, ammunition and holster you use. Forewarned is forearmed. Carry long enough and your chances of having to use it increase. Some of these lessons I've learned by reading Ayoob...some from reading others...and some from 25 + years of carrying on the job and 11 years carrying after retiring.

[tellner]

Add me to the fan club. I've taken one of his classes and plan to take more. Very good, common sense advice on when, how and why and how to deal with the aftermath.

[buzz_knox]

if you can't -- you teach.

Cooper taught. Awerbuck teaches. Pat Rogers teaches. Larry Vickers teaches. I guess they are all equally deserving of your derision. Then again, probably not. It's clear that you've bought into the anti-Ayoob arguments without experience of your own, or a clear understanding of exactly who or what Ayoob is. That would indicate that you probably are unaware of these gentlemen (except Cooper whom you seem to be the same type of fanboy which you deride in others) or what they do beyond the low praise that they teach.

[XavierBreath]

Mas Ayoob is a member here, and while also a public figure, the rules are clear. No flaming of other members. To be honest, this thread makes me ashamed. I have never met the man, I have never taken a class under him, or heard him speak. I have read some of his articles/books.

We would not tolerate a thread entitled "Opinions about Cyanide" or "What do you think about Buzz_Knox?", so we cannot allow it to continue with another High Road member.

If Ayoob debate is allowed to take place in the future, it must be done with the consideration of his forum membership. A bad precedent has been set in the first couple of pages in this thread. This was before Ayoob was a member. We cannot allow that to continue or be supported. Thus, I'm closing this thread and allowing it to drift back into oblivion.