NY State AWB - mag cap and permit questions


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Igloodude
May 23, 2005, 10:06 AM
I may be required to move to Albany, New York in the next couple months for business reasons. I've looked on packing.org and have digested the information there regarding permits and such for Saratoga, Schenectady, Renssalaer, and Albany counties (the business and some of my family members reside in the southeastern edge of Saratoga county). One thing that I read on packing.org is that NYS still has a state AWB ban, which among other things applies to firearms that accept magazines that can hold more than ten rounds.

I primarily shoot Bullseye (though I occasionally carry and I'm starting to get into IDPA) and I happen to have 12-rd mags for both my S&W Model 41 and for my .45ACP wadguns. I'm assuming that I'd have to get rid of the 12-rd mags were I to move there, but if I don't my .22cal Model 41 becomes an assault weapon? :confused:

Also, if anyone can give me practical info on CCW or target-only permits for someone moving to the Capital District counties (state residency waiting periods? getting references from current residents when you don't know anyone?), I'd appreciate it - packing.org is as always a huge help but doesn't have as much detail as I'd like. I'll also be contacting the county approving authorities but I've seen that their answers may not reflect reality.

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Vermont Guy
May 23, 2005, 11:34 AM
I'm new to New York. I can't even apply for a handgun permit until I've been a resident for 6 months. The application will require 4 references. In some counties these people have to have known you for 3 years. Not a problem if you went to high school in NY but a big problem for us.

The sheriff will take all of six months to process the application. CCW will depend entirely on the uninformed opinion of a judge. There will be no effective appeal.

And frankly no political will to change anything. Everyone I've talked to has a story to tell about the difficulty of getting a permit but now that they have it they couldn't care less. There is very little they can do. The legislature is controlled by the city. There is no initiative petition process. There is no recall procedure. The judges are elected for 10 years and judges are unable to discuss anything of substance during their campaign. The judges themselves really think they have a responsibility to keep guns out of the wrong hands.

If you just want to shoot targets then it will be one to five years before you can have your currently owned handguns in your own house. Forget about CCW.

Vermont is about 30 miles from Albany. Just resign yourself to the drive.

TonyB
May 23, 2005, 12:21 PM
I live in Rens. county and have an unrestricted permit....I also have a couple of buddies w/ unresticted ones in Albany county.....city of Albany people are pretty much SOL.....it's county by county and as someone said it depends alot on the judge.
I'm not sure about the AWB though...I "think" because you already have the stuff you're ok..the problem is it depends alot on who you talk to.Sate police or local,they all seem to say something different.If you can stay out of Albany county.I grew up in the south end and didn't even try to get my permit till I moved to Rensselaer county..
what we really NEED is an across the board federal system......this state by state,county by county thing is crap....

Justin
May 23, 2005, 01:04 PM
Apologies for the threadjack, but where did you find 12 rd mags for the Mod. 41?

Igloodude
May 23, 2005, 01:39 PM
Vermont Guy - Getting out of the Navy, I lived for four years in Alaska (prior to permitless CCW), two in Vermont, and now two in New Hampshire. Believe me, I have gotten very comfortable with shall-issue CCWs or better. Commuting two hours a day is not something I'm prepared to do, I'm more likely to tell my bosses no than get that familiar with my car.

TonyB - Do you happen to recall if for Rens. county whether your references have to have known you for some specific amount of time?

Justin - A gunshow in Anchorage, Alaska about 6-7 years ago. They have orange-red followers rather than the usual black. I think they're still S&W branded, I'll check when I get home and let you know.

secamp32
May 23, 2005, 03:19 PM
If they are newer than that you can''t bring them . :cuss:

NYS PL 265.00
sec 23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten
rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition. :banghead:

Archangel
May 23, 2005, 04:17 PM
But if there's no date stamped on the mag, how is anyone to know whether it's a pre-ban or a no-ban?

pete f
May 23, 2005, 06:10 PM
no date would mean it is legal. dated mags were a product of the AWB. although new hi cap mags for a new gun like the m99 S&W would probably be no no's

TonyB
May 23, 2005, 06:15 PM
I have another set of the forms(for the wife)When I find them I'll give you the run down on what they say....but I know the permit clerk for our county is awesome,I can PM you with her number if you want.......pm me if you want it..Tonyb

Brat7748
May 24, 2005, 11:22 AM
Igloodude,

Hope you are getting a BIG increase in pay. Here in the "Empire State" we pay income tax, sales tax, property tax, fees, pernits, tolls....well you get the idea. Spending in NY is out of control, taxes will continue to go up and are MUCH higher than in NH.

Poodleshooter
May 24, 2005, 02:01 PM
no date would mean it is legal. dated mags were a product of the AWB.
Plenty of dated and undated mags are still being produced. Two days ago I handled some AR mags labeled 11/04. However,I've seen a lot of post ban NIW pistol mags with no date at all. Technically, only manufacturers in states with their own capacity bans would have to date their products. As mentioned by a poster above, these state capacity bans are nearly impossible to enforce if the magazines aren't dated. Only date stamped magazines made between 1994 and 2004 will be effectively bannable, but technically, undated magazines made after 2004 are illegal.

Vermont Guy
May 25, 2005, 12:15 AM
TonyB, I'm glad you have an "unrestricted" permit. (that's what they call CCW here) I believe I met that awesome clerk from Rensslaer County earlier this year at the NYSRPA meeting.

Anyone trying to keep a handgun in their home needs four (4!) references and my recollection is that Rensslaer is one of those counties that require them to have known you for three years. The clerk I met seemed to think that was reasonable. How else could they vouch for you unless they knew you for three years?

Fifty-nine years without a single felony conviction, not even one, and it counts for nothing, NOTHING, in New York.

Not a problem if you grew up here but a big problem for new residents. TonyB, you are making it sound like a person just fills out a form and poof... that wasn't so bad was it. The reality is that Igloodude is going to have to wait over four years just to have his own property in his own home!

Like criminals would even bother with that silly form.

And yet Rensslaer county boarders Vermont. TonyB can walk from where he sits reading this to a place where any 21 year old can just lock and load and slip a handgun in their pocket and go about their business. It is called America. It ain't New York.

I like option C best, Igloodude, tell the boss to forget about it. Tell him you want something safe where your rights are respected. Like Iraq.

Igloodude
May 25, 2005, 09:26 AM
The irony about Rensselaer County in particular is that I grew up there, left North Greenbush at 17 to go off to college, and haven't been back since. I've lost contact with anyone that I knew there growing up, but were I to move back you can bet I'd be looking through the phonebook to uncover any long-lost aquaintances.

However, I'm not about to put all my guns in storage for 3+ years, so if it comes to that I am indeed going to be telling my boss that I'm not moving.

Graystar
May 25, 2005, 02:52 PM
But if there's no date stamped on the mag, how is anyone to know whether it's a pre-ban or a no-ban?The only stipulation in the law is the *actual* date of manufacture. If the state really wanted to get you, they'd send the mags to the manufacture for expert verification as to actual date of manufacture.

ziadel
May 25, 2005, 03:00 PM
stay out of albany county if you can, Saratoga county has a shall issue mentality, I had mine 2.5 months after all the paperwork went in, but it has enblazoned on it, target/hunting across the top of the CCW...


an interesting little factoid the guy who taught my CCW class (oh yeah, you have to take the NRA pistol safety course too) is that, you can buy a 2" .38, and get a 'target hunting only' CCW. And the judge knows exactly what you have, as the type of guns you own goes in on your application. Funny thing is, I don't know a lot of people who target shoot or hunt with 2" .38's. I'm sure you an intelligent guy, so you prolly get my point.

so yeah, try to get residence in Saratoga county, thats prolly your best bet for working in Albany. It'll cost you a bit over 100 bucks. You'll have to take the pistol safety course (might even have to if you've already taken it, I dunno)

jobu07
May 25, 2005, 03:04 PM
Usually, although it varies county to county as said, there is no time requirement for an aquaintance you use for a referrence; however, the application will ask how long they have known you. I guess the idea is that you don't go pay some homeless bums to vouch for you sorta thing.

Anyway, my application took just under 4 months to complete. The nice thing about a New York carry permit is that there are very few places we can not take our weapon. Courthouses and .gov offices come to mind.

The not-so-nice thing about New York is that we have to register our pistols and still have a state AWB. However, I have never seen someone get busted for this. As stated prior, the high capacity mag ban here is basically a wash. Buy all the high cap mags you want. So long as a manufacturer didn't "officially" stamp a date on the equipment, you are good to go with your mags.

Of course, rifles can be another problem, they have those lovely serial numbers. My advice to you is that if you come here and can handle the taxes, apply for your pistol permit and when you get it, as you are unlikely to be denied (doesn't happen too often without good reason, unless you are in a county with a judge who has an agenda). Have a rockin' good time. There are untold amounts of us here with AK's and AR's and all the goodies! :)

Lastly, you will be going to one of the worse areas of the state. Albany... Hmmm... Picture the evil eye in The Lord of the Rings. :rolleyes: Our political situation is dismill, but that is not related to this. I'd recommend that you steer clear of Albany county, Ren. won't be too bad. But you can apply for your permit in the county you work, as well, if different from the county you live which is nice if you have one of those bad judges.

Ok, i'll shut up now. Welcome to the Empire State. :uhoh:

Igloodude
May 25, 2005, 04:29 PM
One quick question that I just realized I was unclear on - for the multiple references that are required, are they required to be residents of the county in which you are applying, or are they only required to be residents of New York State?

I think I know enough NYS people (even aside from relatives) to get by if it is a statewide thing, as opposed to a county-specific restriction.

GnL
May 25, 2005, 10:23 PM
Long time, no post...

I'm basically in a similar boat. I moved to NY about 2 years ago from Wisconsin. My pistols are in a safe box in Wisconsin because I don't know many people here and the ones I do know, have only known me for the 2 or so years I have lived here.

I have lived in 3 states in the past 3 years, so to provide references for a state I have lived in for 3 years will go back to 2000-2002 and will be hard to track down.

I have a permit application packet (Monroe County-Rochester area) and my understanding is your references have to live in the same county in which you are applying for a permit.

I am also wondering if one needs to provide purchase receipts for pistols brought in from other states (previously owned). I doubt I still have mine. Does this mean I'll never be able to get a permit for those pistols?

This state pisses me off to no end.

Also, not to hijack the thread, but I've got one of the AR-15.com limited edition M4gery rifles I bought back in 2001, before I came to NY. It was legal under the federal awb, does that mean it is legal under the NY ban? I am asking hypothetically, of course, because it is not in state either. I can ask over at AR-15.com but maybe someone here knows.

Thanks for any advice out there...

GnL

ziadel
May 26, 2005, 05:01 AM
GnL,

I think what you will have to do, is go back to wisconsin, drop your pistols off at a gun store, have them sent to a gun store in NY, goto the new gun store, have receipts written up, take receipts to sheriff to put in with your application.


tedious.

AechKay
May 26, 2005, 05:15 AM
I HEAR that its easy to get one in saratoga county. A buddy of mine has one, and he's from there.

Igloodude
May 26, 2005, 06:22 AM
AechKay,
Is it an unrestricted or a target/hunting only, and how long ago did he get it? Packing.org shows Saratoga County to be one of the most restrictive counties in the state.
And if you don't mind me asking, what county is yours from and was getting yours a hassle?

Graystar
May 26, 2005, 10:17 AM
I don't know a lot of people who target shoot or hunt with 2" .38's.Everyone with a "Target/Hunting" license (actually a Premise license according to state law) has a Hunting Authorization that allows the carry of a handgun while hunting...I have one and I'm in NYC! The idea of the handgun is for finishing off game...not to hunt with, although you can certainly do that as well with the right handgun. A .38 snubby is more than good enough for the job intended.

jobu07
May 26, 2005, 10:25 AM
It's odd, but some (I think most) counties require your references to be from the same county.

Also, the AR-15, I wouldn't really worry about it. If I were in your shoes, which i'm not, i'd bring it backhome with me to NY. I'm not telling you to break a law, but no one cares, no one knows, and you'd be just fine doing it.

Monroe County is supposed to be not too bad when it comes to getting a permit also. I've got some Rochester area friends who have had no problem getting them. In fact, one guy I know lives in Seneca County, and works in Monroe County and has a Monroe County permit.

Pistols from other states are fine, with or without receipts. Just ship them from one FFL to another and get some sort of written piece of paper (receipt or not) from the FFL who is receiving your pistols that gives all of the pertinent information about the gun on it (ie serial number, make, model, caliber).

Vermont Guy
May 26, 2005, 11:03 AM
This is what I'm talking about!!!

Saratoga county has a shall issue mentality, I had mine 2.5 months after all the paperwork went in, but it has enblazoned on it, target/hunting across the top of the CCW...


Isn't Saratoga lovely. Just like America. No, wait, in most of the country you could do that (shoot targets, carry while hunting) right after walking out of the gun store -- NO PERMIT REQUIRED!

But New Yorkers have been living with this for so long they are grateful to wait only 2.5 months. Ziadel's father probably lived with this all his life. Ziadel's sheriff will tell him he should be grateful to only wait 2.5 months too.

Pistols from other states are fine, with or without receipts. Just ship them from one FFL to another and get some sort of written piece of paper (receipt or not) from the FFL who is receiving your pistols that gives all of the pertinent information about the gun on it (ie serial number, make, model, caliber).


Jobu07 forgot to mention you can't get them until AFTER you have your permit. Until then they will rot at the New York FFL. You can visit on weekends.....but no touching!

People, people, people, in America you just throw your property in the back of the UHaul and move. Sounds like something out of science fiction I know, but it is the reality for most of the country.

Why not New York? Missouri changed their law. The rest of the country will soon be working on removing the duty to retreat. New York needs to be put on the path of real shall-issue CCW.

TonyB
May 26, 2005, 11:33 AM
I didn't intend to make it sound like it was no big deal to get your permit in NY.I wish every state had VT type laws......it's just that people think it's next to impossible to get a ccw in NY and it's not....it does take time,luck and a good judge..but it's not impossible....I took 2 NRA courses,wrote a letter to the judge and got my restrictions off.....not easy,or quick,but not like CA or MA either......

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