[Skunkabilly]

Thinking out loud here, what do I need for a civilian M16A4gery?

Colt? FN? Just this thing with a detachable carry handle? What else? Is this the right barrel profile?

http://www.colt.com/colt/assets/images/a2f16_m16a2.gif

[444]

The classic M4orgery has a 14.5" barrel, us civilians have to add a muzzle brake to increase the length to 16". The barrel will have a step just forward of the front sight, the purpose of which is to attach an M203. The handguards are of a larger diameter and oval in shape; the real M4 handguards have a double heat shield. Or it could have a Knights Armament RAS instead of the handguard. It will have a detachable carry handle. It will have a collapsable stock.

[444]

Why not just buy a Colt M4 ?
Bushmaster makes one, but it doesn't have the correct handguards or muzzle brake.

[Nightcrawler]

He wants an M16A4 lookalike, not an M4 carbine. The M16A4 has a 20" A2 barrel, detachable carry handle, and the rail handguards are an option.

To my knowledge, none of the big companies makes an A2 profile 20" barrel. All make much thicker heavy barrels on their 20" models.

[444]

You are right, my bad.

[Kharn]

Bushmaster makes a 20" A2 profile barrel, but it might be preban only. A short visit to your gunsmith to attach a CavComp or Wilson Tactical Brake and to mill off the wings from the bayonet lug will make it legal.

Kharn

[Gewehr98]

The pre-ban 20" Colt Competition HBAR with it's detachable carry handle would come fairly close, save for the heavy barrel profile underneath the handguards (And handguards can be changed easily). Bushmaster and Oly did some in that configuration, too. Post-ban, I *think* Colt still makes one...

http://mauser98.com/hbarsmall.jpg

[Skunkabilly]

i'm looking for something with an A2 barrel. Lighter (within reason) is better, for my purposes, at least.

I'm planning on a Wilson muzzle brake anyway, so post ban or preban, it don't matter, but I really like virgin guns.

Out of curiosity, are the military rifles made by FN or Colt?

[Duke of Lawnchair]

To my knowledge, none of the big companies makes an A2 profile 20" barrel. All make much thicker heavy barrels on their 20" models.

Colt has a chrome chambered, non-chrome bore A2 profile barrel on their MT6551's.

Bushmaster just recently introduced a postban A2 profile barrel to complement their preban A2 barrels.

Postban A2 barrel... (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/pbbl20a2a.asp)

[Nightcrawler]

FN is now a major supplier of M16A2s to the US Military. Colt provides the M4 carbines, I believe.

FN parts (including A2 profile uppers) can be had from J&T Distributing, I believe.

[Kharn]

Nightcrawler: Those arent authentic FN parts. Fabrique National is prohibited from selling M16/AR15 parts to the civilian market as part of their contract with the military.

Kharn

[444]

Kharn, I am not calling you out or anything but can you provide any proof of either or your statements ? That FN is prohibited from selling parts to the civilian market or that J&T is passing off phony parts ?

[QuarterBoreGunner]

IIRC- FN has the current contract for the standard M16A2/A3, Colt has the copyright on the M4 concept/weapon type- for a short while FN was manufacturing the M4 type but had to stop when Colt tried some legal wrangling.

Incidentally has anyone else been seeing our troops in the big sandbox carrying the M5 version of the full size M16- the rifle has the full length Knight's Armaments Systems RIS/RAS system and one of the PEQ family of lasers.

Take a look at the pdf of the various SOPMOD kits (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/taylor.pdf) just be sure and have your drool towel handy.

You want tactical Skunkabilly? Check out the pdf.

[gun-fucious]

the truely tactical run an SPR:

[Kharn]

444: I cannot substantiate it, but those on ar15.com talk about it regularly. Perhaps someone there has proof.

Kharn

[444]

Kharn: I have read this myself many times. However I have a problem with it. First of all, J&T is an upstanding company. The stuff they sell is good stuff. I have dealt with them more than once and many of my friends have purchased parts and rifle kits from them. I personally have never read a negative thing about them other than those that question the fact that they use FN parts. Based on my knowlege of the company and the reputation they enjoy on the internet, I find it hard to believe that they would blatantly advertise FN parts if they in fact arn't FN parts.
Then of course I have never seen anything substantial that says that FN's contract states that they can't sell parts to private parties. Now don't get me wrong, it may very well be true, but this is repeated over and over on the internet (like a lot of things) but that doesn't nessessarily make it true.
I just hate to see a good companies' name being dragged though the mud based on internet rumor.

Not that this has much to do with our discussion, but at the last gunshow I went to, a guy had a whole pile of 30 round AR magazines clearly marked on the base; FN.

[Kharn]

A search for "Fabrique Nationale" on Ar15.com's AR15 board turned up the following:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=150868&w=searchPop

FN's website is www.fnmfg.com, you could try giving them a call to put the issue to rest.

Kharn

[JShirley]

I had an A4 in ITB. While a cool idea, I think they are less useable than an A2. I think Knight's rails on the M4 are a much better idea.

[Skunkabilly]

I had an A4 in ITB. While a cool idea, I think they are less useable than an A2. I think Knight's rails on the M4 are a much better idea.

JShirley,

What's ITB? Less useable than A2, why, the rail thingies on the A4 are too heavy? I'll probably replace the handguard with a Surefire light.

In effect, would a civilian M16A3gery be the same thing as an M16A4gery?

[JHill]

Skunk,

Check out this discussion: AR build (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=153622)

What I am finding out is that anyone can pretty much build exactly what you desire.

Why build? $$$ Just a quick estimate gives me a realized savings of $150+

Stripped lower -- $110
J&T kit (16"CAR) -- $450
ARMS #40 sight -- $85
Newby build time -- ~2hrs
Total -- $645

Plus, you get an in-depth look at how it works.

If you are really broke--building allows you to do a 'home lay away' plan.

[JShirley]

Skunk,

"Infantry Training Brigade".

A4: Balance feels wrong, and considerably heavier and bulkier (for- to my mind- little additional utility).

[Skunkabilly]

JShirley, what on the A4 is heavier and bulkier? I am not sure I understand your last post....

Would the A4 still be heavier and bulkier even if I didn't have the rail doodad?

[JShirley]

It wouldn't, but that's what makes the A4 the A4: those damned rails. At first glance, the A4 looks just like an A2, then you realize the foregrip is considerably fatter. Those rails are heavier, too.

It's kinda like the '73 Mustang of M16's. :D

[Skunkabilly]

Hmmmm....I never cared for those rail doodads...too heavy for my wimpy little frame!! :D

[Handy]

Is it at all possible that J&T is purchasing geniune FN parts OUTSIDE the US and importing them? FN can't control parts already sold outside the US, and J&T can import anything they want.


As a side note, if the parts are made in Belgium, don't you have to start worrying about the foreign made parts count? I would think a complete FN made upper might be pushing it. Maybe the mag, grip and trigger get you through. Worth finding out, though.

BTW, I think this rifle type has plenty of appeal. The barrel and sight radius encourage long range shooting, the gun is easy to scope and isn't quite as heavy as a dedicated target gun. Loads of utility.

[Triad]

Handy, some other things to consider: are any M16 parts made in Belgium? If they only make them at their US plant then that problem is solved, but if US made parts are exported from the US then imported to the US, does ATF classify those as US parts or imported? (This may seem stupid to some, and it is, but if you've ever looked at the stuff folks have to go through with AKs and FALs you'd understand.)

[Handy]

While there is limited Browning manufacturing in the US, I had never heard of the US FN plant, unlike Beretta's or Sig's US facilities. So I was guessing they were made in Belgium.

If the parts are US made, they're US made. The path they take on the way doesn't matter.

[another48hrs]

Handy. Here is the website to FN's factory in the US.

http://www.fnmfg.com/

[Handy]

I put in my two cents, and got change.

Thanks.:)

[gk1]

Well, first of all, you need to move. Until then, you can't get an M16Anything, IIRC. :D

George

[Jeff White]

A friend of mine on the AR15 list e-mailed FN and asked about this. Here is the reply:

Subject: RE: Parts Q
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:22:22 -0500
From: "Beryl Myers" <berylm@fnmfg.com>
To:

Rodger,
Thank you for your email. We have become aware of this issue as well, and you are correct, FNMI ONLY produces and sells M16 Type Weapons for and to the US Government. We are prohibited from any other sales based on a Non Disclosure and Non Use Agreement, with the US Government.

The only explanation that we have been able to gather, is that these shop have gone to some of our suppliers who, either from a drawing supplied by that shop or from one of their own, is producing the part and selling it commercially, and that supplier says, that the parts are made to the same quality as FN parts.

I hope that this helps. If not, let me know.

Beryl

There are no real FN parts out there that are not stolen. That said, there are only a couple of subcontractors making assemblies for Colt, Bushmaster, FN etc.

Jeff

[Handy]

This:
That said, there are only a couple of subcontractors making assemblies for Colt, Bushmaster, FN etc.
is the reason I maintain that there is no good reason to go with a big brand name on a basic AR.

[Jeff White]

Handy,
I would have to disagree. Just becasue there are only a few subcontractors making many of the parts doesn't mean that they are all created equal. Why do you think you pay more for a Colt or Bushmaster upper receiver then you do for a no name or ersatz FNMI at the gunshow? It's because the Colt or Bushmaster was made to closer tolerances then the ersatz FNMI. Often the forges sell the parts that don't meet the standards that the bigger manufacturers require to the so called "bottom feeder" dealers. I have seen too many ARs built from ersatz FNMI parts give their owners fits to believe otherwise.

You can buy the esatz FNMI parts and have good luck, but if you don't what recourse do you have? IMHE it's better to pay a little more for a part you know will be in spec then frustrate yourself trying to make an AR work with out of spec parts.

Jeff

[Handy]

Jeff,

There is plenty of crap out there, but it wasn't worth an extra $300 for me to ensure that I didn't get any. I spent $500 on a kit (that had a warranty) and PWA receiver, and got a rifle the equal of a Bushmaster.

Bushmaster, etc, get most of their parts from the same places the reputable parts companies (like J&T, Sherluck) do and charge you alot to do an extra hour's assembly.

Considering how often people have problems with their factory, name brand firearm, it didn't seem like a good tradeoff, and didn't prove to be either.

Plus, my mag well wasn't too small for Orlite mags. Or is that another bonus to buying a Bushmaster?

[444]

I agree Jeff. The difference in price for most parts isn't great. I recently had a reciever lying around here that I couldn't wait to assemble. However it seemed like last month, everybody and thier dog was at the SHOT show and I had trouble easily laying my hands on a lower parts kit. I bought a lower parts kit at a gunshow for $80. I had no idea of the quality of the parts, if they didn't work I had no recourse. I could have bought a Bushmaster parts kit for less money and had a set of quality parts that I could count on. I also believe that Bushmaster barrels are of better quality than many out there; I personally am a believer in chrome lined barrels and chambers. And again, I would rather pay an extra $50 to get stuff from a reputable manufacturer.
I am not sure what the comment about the Orolite magazines is all about. I have a number of Bushmaster lower receivers which I have used extensively. For example, within the last four weeks I fired over 3000 rounds of .223 ammo, primarily out of one Bushmaster rifle. I have a half dozen Orolite mags, a half dozen Thermold mags, along with numerous Colt and USGI mags and never experienced any kind of problem seating any of my magazines. In fact I have never had a problem seating magazines in my Colt, Bushmaster, Cav Arms, or Century lowers.

[444]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=154803

[Onslaught]

Just FYI, my Bushmaster won't allow Orlite mags to lock into place. They fall out...

From what I understand, there are at least 2 types of Orlites, one is OK in Bushy, other isn't. I've seen 'em in CDNN and CTD catalogs saying either "works in Bushmaster" or "doesn't...".

[444]

Whether or not a magazine locks into a given lower receiver is a function of the magazine catch. This can be adjusted to some extent by screwing the magazine catch more or less into the magazine catch button. If you take something like a wooden dowel, you can push your magazine catch button in from the right side of the lower and the magazine catch will be pushed out the left side of the lower. The magazine catch can then be rotated to increase or decrese the amount the magazine catch protrudes into the mag well.
Bushmaster lower receivers are made to the same specs as any other lower receiver. The lower receiver parts are the same as any other. They are mil-spec. There is no reason why any AR15 magazine wouldn't lock up in one gun and not another.
I can tell you that the Orolite magazines I have, lock right into my Bushmaster lowers. No problem at all. I have multiple Bushmaster lowers and multiple Orolite magazines. There are no problems with my stuff.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

AR15.com has a lot of good info in their magazine faq-

http://magfaq.tripod.com/

Unfortunately the latest updated version appears to be down for now.

As for the problem with the Orlite magazines, if I recall, it has to do with a minor difference between Colt and Bushmaster in the magazine well area of the receiver. There is a raised lip on the Orlites that prevent them from seating deep into the Bushmaster well for the mag catch to engage so by Dremeling off this edge the mags work just fine. You need to bee cautious about using the modified magazines in Colts though, as there is a chance to overseat the magazine and bind up the bolt carrier.

Anyway, that’s my $0.02

[444]

3-2-1] Orlite
-------
Orlite magazines were developed for the Israeli Armed Forces. The bodies are made from high-melt-temp black nylon with a steel reinforement mesh imbedded in the top 1.5 inches to strengthen the feed lips. New Orlites come with a rubber cap to help keep sand out of the mag.
Orlites have a rib around the middle of the mag which helps to seal the bottom of the mag well and also prevents the magazine from being over-inserted and the feed lips damaged. The location of the rib was based on the deep mag well beveling on Colt M16s, and in ARs that aren't beveled as deeply, early Orlites won't seat completely. This is easily correctable by trimming a bit of material from the top surface of the over-insertion rib; just enough to allow the mag to seat. This problem only occurs with early Orlites with mold numbers from 0/1 to 0/19. Starting with batch 0/20, the rib was moved about 1/32" further down the mag body, and these later mags work in all ARs with no modification. Used Orlites are often found at gun shows with their over-insertion ribs completely ground off. Avoid these mags, as it's too easy for these mags to be over-inserted, banging the feedlips against the bolt or getting stuck.
Orlites are quite reliable, and were general issue in the Israeli Army through the 80s, but it was found that they don't hold up to hard combat use as well as USGI mags, which Israel switched to in the 90s.

[Onslaught]

Whether or not a magazine locks into a given lower receiver is a function of the magazine catch.

Nope, it's not that. I first thought it might be, so after tightening the mag catch as much as I felt comfortable, I cut the mag catch "indention" on the orlite all the way through. That's when I realized that it wouldn't go far enough up into the magwell to engage the catch.

Taken from http://magfaq.tripod.com/mags2.htm#3i

"Orlites have a rib around the middle of the mag which helps to seal the bottom of the mag well and also prevents the magazine from being over-inserted and the feed lips damaged. The location of the rib was based on the deep mag well beveling on Colt M16s, and in ARs that aren't beveled as deeply, early Orlites won't seat completely. This is easily correctable by trimming a bit of material from the top surface of the over-insertion rib; just enough to allow the mag to seat. This problem only occurs with early Orlites with mold numbers from 0/1 to 0/19. Starting with batch 0/20, the rib was moved about 1/32" further down the mag body, and these later mags work in all ARs with no modification."

Perhaps all your mags have mold numbers greater than 0/20? It's a common and fairly well documented issue. The Bushmaster lowers do not work with some Orlite mags without dremelling or sanding of the rib in the middle. Apparently, there are variations between different brands of lowers, however slight they may be.

But hey... this conversation forced me to look up the facts, and now I can buy those inexpensive Orlites at the next gun show, just as long as the mold marks are above 0/20. ;)

[444]

Ok, I see now that some Orolite magazines that are appearently 15-20 years old, might not seat in non-Colt lowers. All the Orolites I bought were new from CDNN, and they work fine. It sounds like Israel hasn't been using the magazines for quite some time, possibly like 10 years.
I personally like them. And not to be a dead horse, one of the reasons I liked them is that they seem to lock up tight in my lowers.

[Onslaught]

I almost get the feeling you may have thought I was "argueing", but I was only stating what I had experienced first hand.

I wasn't trying to insult your Orlites at all. In fact, the reason I bought them in the first place was that I liked the looks of them, and wanted to use them instead of the beat-up Aluminum GI ones. Well now, thanks to this thread, I have enough info that I can! The internet is such a wonderful thing.

[444]

No, I didn't think that at all.
But as a result, we both received an education.
We were both right.

[Handy]

444,

The idea of buying a Bushmaster kit I have no arguement with. I was proposing saving money by using a kit rather than spending hundreds extra buying an assembled gun. You seem to think the same.

As far as Orlites go, I've never heard it was a Colt vs. Bushmaster thing. I had always heard it was souly a Bushy problem and the mags locked in most other brands. The PWA did fine with them. I was merely pointing out that even the highest reputation didn't guarantee perfection. Bushmaster was also known for their purple receivers for several years. Doesn't mean they're junk, but hardly offers evidence that a kit isn't just as good a way of getting an AR15.