What is the point of a shoulder rig?

[RavenVT100]

The shoulder rig crops up all the time in movies, TV, video games, etc, and yet I've hardly ever seen it recommended by anyone. What's the purpose of a shoulder rig, and why would you use it over an IWB?

This is just a very basic question which I'm having trouble answering.

[Guns_and_Labs]

It's a heckuva lot more comfortable than an IWB. Plus, that belt space was really designed for cellphones, leatherman tools and pagers. :)

[pax]

It hides well under a suit jacket, it is relatively comfortable, and it is a very fast draw.

pax

[Preacherman]

It's very useful under certain circumstances, for example:

1. It's much easier to get to a shoulder holster than a waist rig while sitting down, traveling in a vehicle, etc.

2. If you have back problems, which can be exacerbated by a heavy waist rig, a shoulder holster puts the weight higher up.

3. If you routinely wear a jacket, it's often more concealable than a bulkier waist rig, particularly if the jacket can "ride up", as in a vehicle.

4. If you need to have your hand near your weapon without attracting attention, it's easy to stand with folded arms, but one hand near (or even resting on) the gun in the shoulder holster.

[Arc-Lite]

..and it is the only way to carry a large frame weapon....un-noticed.

[centac]

I am not a fan, except under very particular circumstances.

PRO:
Helps out with back and hip problems
May be more accessible while driving, flying etc.

CON
Requires special range arrangements when training so as to not sweep other shooters
Draw is easily defeated by opponent trapping weapon arm against body
Not retentive
Diagonals may allow muzzle to print on rear of jacket
Cannot reholster with one hand, generally.
Generally slower than weapon side hip holster, all things being equal.
Floppy, beats ya to death when running and difficult to index if not tied down.

I only use mine to spare my aching hip and lower back

[TMM]

i plan on using a shoulder holster, because, as i see it, an OWB would need to be too high up, and an IWB...well.. i just don't like it. looks uncomforable. also, it would take up too much space (with zippo, knife, oc spray, etc on my belt...). i plan on a small back-up in a small-of-back holster, or maybe ankle.

centac: how is it not possible to reholster? and what do you mean by "not retentive"?

as for the floppyness, couldn't it be belted like so: shoulder rig>holster>attachment to waist belt
so it dosn't flop?

seems like a more comforable rig too.

~TMM

[centac]

By not retentive I mean that in a scuffle you are basically giving the butt of your gun to a bad guy. Be it horizontal or vertical, in a normal defensive stance your gun is closer to your adversary that it would be in a strongside hip rig because your body is bladed that way. With my Miami Classic I learned to swing the gun behind the bicep of my reactionary arm, but it sure is hard to fight that way.

It is possible to reholster one handed, it is just much more of a struggle because the holster shifts around so much and with the diagonals there isnt anything to "push against". I have used tie downs but the only way to get them tight enough to keep the rig from shifting makes the it darn near impossible to wear.

I much prefer a weapon side belt rig solidly mounted on a stiff belt so that movement is minimized. It is away from an adversary, easily defended, allows for aa consistent index and fast draw, and if well made can allow reholstering as fast as the draw. But thats just me, the shoulder rig may be just the ticket for your needs. I still use mine when the lower back is screamin' for mercy

[Trebor]

You could just as easily ask, "What's the point of IWB, and why would you pick it over a shoulder rig?" Different options for different needs with different strengths and weaknesses.

I carry IWB, but I can see where a shoulder rig would be better in some circumstances.

[mrhuckins]

This is not a fancy explination, backed up by lots of research. When I get home from work, I like to get out of my work clothes, and put on some sweats and relax. Unless I have other chores to do. Since I don't wear a belt with sweats, its just easy, practical and quick to throw on a shoulder holster so I have a weapon on me at home.

BTW, my shoulder rig has a pocket opposite the side that my gun is on to carry two mags, and each side has an elastic velcro strap, to hook to my belt if I wear one, so that it doesn't flop around, and reholstering with one hand is a snap.-

[CleverName]

I've heard some like shoulder rigs because they can go from unarmed to armed faster - no adjusting the belt, fiddling with the loops, etc. Just grab it, put it on like a vest, then go.

[Malamute]

It's been pretty well covered already, but I'll add my .02

I like a shoulder rig for the ease of having a gun handy without a belt, such as out in the yard at night when not fully dressed.

Also like the taking the weight off my back/hips. Sometimes I use the El Paso Saddlery 1942 holster for my Smith 24/29 when out in the hills. It's a copy of the across the chest holster made for the 1911. Good utility rig, but not a concealment rig.

When working and wearing my carpentry tool belt with GI suspenders, a shoulder rig makes it practical to have a gun available that would not be practical otherwise.

I live in good mountain lion and bear country, having a gun available at any time I may be outside is just common sense, at least after dark.

[444]

I have a Bianci X15 that someone gave me.
It is the most comfortable way to carry a handgun that I have ever tried. The problem is that you have to wear some kind of cover garment over it: like a jacket.
So, right now it is 107 degrees in sunny Las Vegas. Not many people wearing jackets between now and next November. And, I am not going to have a summer and winter holster that are entirely different. Not to mention that when you conceal the gun under a jacket that you get real hot when you go indoors.

[Biker]

When I drove cab, my G-23 was both a great comfort and accessable in a shoulder rig. I still carried my Taurus 450 on my left ankle, but it was nearly useless there while driving.
Biker

[LawDog]

Shoulder rigs allow you to go from unarmed to fully armed in one throw.

A lot of them will dig into the top of your shoulders after long-term wear, but an armour vest will cushion the straps quite nicely.

Lady officers who are enceinte tend to favour the shoulder rig in the time period after their duty belt no longer fits, but before they get stuck behind a desk.

Shoulder rigs do tend to have a certain flair. Tuxedos fairly cry out for a shoulder harness and a small automatic.

Full-bore Highland finery uses a belt that is a good four inches broad, which kind of limits your arming choices to tucking the pistol into your sporran, or using a shoulder rig.

I am informed that a small auto in a shoulder harness is the safest thing to have if you lay down your motorcycle at speed, although I have not personally tested this hypothesis.

LawDog

[fjolnirsson]

Full-bore Highland finery uses a belt that is a good four inches broad, which kind of limits your arming choices to tucking the pistol into your sporran, or using a shoulder rig.

Hmm, I never would have thought of this, but it just might come up. Thanks, Lawdog. :)

[Arc-Lite]

This is not an either / or, thing... I have many pairs of shoes...I have many holsters.

[armedandsafe]

Keeps it up out of the snow, river water, mud, etc. Balances better when snowshoeing, skiing, biking (both types,) skating, climbing. More comfortable when carrying fanny pack, towing snow or dust sleds with waist belt. More comfortable when belaying (but troublesome when rappelling.) Harder to get "made" when tapped on the hip (favorite ploy of BATFE and such at gun shows.) Easier to get "made" when hugged by overly-friendly maiden aunt (or such like.)

That should be about $0.02. :D

Pops

[Art Eatman]

Don't forget us old guys with arthritis in the shoulders. :)

From the spinal disk compression that has come with my years, I've lost 1.5 inches of height. That puts my belt that much closer to my arthritic shoulder. I just can't draw from a belt-level strong-side rig as in my IPSC daze.

But I can smile and reach toward my shirt pocket for a pen or for a cigarette--and somehow find something else...

:), Art

[Biker]

You can really lose an inch and a half????? In how many years, if I'm, not being too personal?
Biker

[Malamute]

"This is not an either / or, thing... I have many pairs of shoes...I have many holsters."

I agree with Arc. I too have many holsters. A shoulder rig fills a niche. I have two different shoulder rigs for my 4" N frame guns. And a couple different belt rigs.

[rwc]

I don't have a shoulder rig, thinking about it though as I do wear a coat regularly.

Not uncommon to lose an inch or so. I lost almost an inch due to a glacier skiing accident in Canada a couple years ago. It took about 0.3 seconds to pulverize two vertebrea. Visualize stomping on a tuna can, a bit off-center. Twice. Still on the mend but I'm unlikely to get any taller. :)

[chopinbloc]

people think they look cool. having tried several, i think their practicality is limited and they're about as comfortable to wear as a backwards bra with a dumbell in it. oddly enough iwb is more comfy.

[jobu07]

I swear by shoulder rigs in cooler weather or while just screwin' around the house. I have a Fury 44 (at least I think that the brand :uhoh: , terrible that I dont' know my own holster's brand, I know!) and it is wonderful for concealing even the largest of revovlers.

By not retentive I mean that in a scuffle you are basically giving the butt of your gun to a bad guy. Be it horizontal or vertical...

Mine is a verticle rig, and it is not clearing leather unless my hand is on it. It's just well designed. It's very retentive, yet, is easy to draw as well. Ah well, it is fun to play with I 'spose. My only complaint is that you just can't take off your jacket if you are away from home or in a non-friendly environment (ie a friends house or something).

[Bandit01]

I ride a motorcycle. Even though I have a CCW, it'll still stick out while I sitting at a traffic light, for example. By using a shoulder rig (and my motorcycle jacket) no one needs to know that I'm carrying. It's comfortable and convient.

[Yanus]

One way I use a Miami Classic is over a T shirt, but under a normal shirt that is cut large. It is a little slower to draw unless the shirt has snaps like a western shirt. However, it is definitely concealed without having to wear a jacket or vest. Try it......... you'll like it! :D

Yanus

[Texian Pistolero]

Not sure why nobodies mentioned how hard it is to make sure that your "bra" strap doesn't print though the jacket.

I can see open carry in the tall weeds, maybe.

[Bacchus]

Surprised no one mentioned this yet: no need to go out and buy larger pants!

[KnightHawk67]

Here in Ohio, to travel CCW, it has to be locked in the glovebox, or in plain view on your body. Well, that shoots IWB/OWB all to heck if you have bucket seats or have the armrest down. Shoulder rig seems to be best way to meet that requirement.

I know, it's a POS CCW law, but it's all we have currently. I can't wait until some "soccer mom" in a SUV looks down & notices someones weapon, freaks, and calls the law on the poor unsuspecting, law-abiding CCW person. Hopefully, if that happens enough times they will change that provision.
:cuss: :banghead:

[Art Eatman]

Biker, I'm getting close to 71.

I'd venture that my shrinkage is more severe than average due to too many years of working alone, lifting heavier stuff than I really should have. But, a bone-density test says I'm harder than average. (And, hey, they tested my leg, not my head. :) )

Typically, from what the docs told me, from 40 to 70 you can expect around a half-inch to maybe 3/4-inch of loss. More, if you live on past 75 or 80.

My problem is that it hurts to "hunch" my right shoulder to draw from belt-level. I imagine raw terror and adrenalin could negate that, of course. :D

Art

[Vitamin G]

I like my Alessi bodyguard for my BHP. I tend to alternate carrying a BHP in a shoulder holster when its chilly out (Wearing a thinner style fleece to cover it), and wearing a 1911 in a brommeland IWB in the warmer months.

What is the point of a shoulder rig? Different flavors for different days.
Some days im sitting all day, some days im driving all day, some days I need to be able to disarm convieniently when i go back/forth across the PA/WV/OH borders.

[CAS700850]

For me, it was a matter of needing to go from unarmed to armed in short order. At the office, there's a "no visible weapons" policy for the prosecutors, which means gun off if the suit coat is off. Then, when it's time to go somewhere, throw on the shoulder rig (Galco Jackass rig), put on the suit coat, and go. At night, I am on-call one week a month, and the shoulder rig is great for the 1 a.m. call out for assistance/guidance. Pants, shirt, socks and shoes, badge case, shoulder rig, jacket (depending on weather), and go. Even in the summer, a light windbreaker is not a problem at 1 a.m.

[Sleuth]

I prefered shoulder rigs (I have several) for Protection Details. When you are in the crowd, it is easier to protect than a belt rig, and in a tight crowd, easier to draw from. Plus, with radio, wires to ear piece & mike, cuffs, OC, and whatever else, it frees up belt space. As previously noted, it is easier to use in the motorcade as well.

One of the down sides is that most people are vertical targets, while drawing from most shoulder holsters results in a horizontal presentation. You have to stop the motion in a narrow plane to make hits, when with strong side rig you can start trigger pressure almost as soon as you clear the holster. The other down sides about not being able to remove your jacket has been mentioned. I often remove my jacket while eating, as long as my gun side (belt rig) is toward the wall. Can't do that with a shoulder rig.

I have used muzzle up, muzzle down, and hroizontal rigs at different times. The fastest is a very old revolver rig that carries the gun vertical, but unsnaps to a horizontal as you draw.

Of course, your results may vary.

[Michael Zeleny]

I carry a cocked and locked SIG P210 in a variety of holsters. I have Mitch Rosen's 5JR (http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/holsters/belt_holsters/body_belt_holsters.html) and 5JR-PRES-FD (http://www.mitchrosen.com/new_products/body_new_products.html) and Josh Bulman's SCS (http://www.bulmangunleather.com/scs.html), AIWB (http://www.bulmangunleather.com/aiwb.html), TSA2 (http://www.bulmangunleather.com/tsa2.html) configured for cross-draw, and HSH2 (http://www.bulmangunleather.com/hsh2.html) with a dual magazine carrier. All but Rosen's 5JR are made from shell cordovan. I usually carry two spare magazines on the belt or on the off side of the shoulder holster.

I am right handed. I stand 5'11" and weigh 195 lbs. My jacket size is 48, and my jeans come in 36x34. The most comfortable carry and quickest draw for me is strong-size OWB, followed by the strong-size IWB. The shoulder holster is as concealable, slightly more comfortable, and lots quicker than cross-draw IWB, and far superior in concealment to a cross-draw OWB.

The difference in draw speed comes from ready access to the front strap of the pistol. There is no need to sweep the muzzle around on the draw. Starting out by keeping the elbows in as much as possible, covering the strong hand with the off shoulder and forearm, sweep the muzzle downwards on the draw, punching the shooting hand forward and twisting it simultaneously to come upwards with the front sight as you acquire the target.

A horizontal shoulder rig will readily conceal a full size semiauto pistol on a near-mesomorph like me, my short torso notwithstanding. An endomorph wearing loose clothing would likewise have no problem. An ectomorph needs a deep chest and/or wide deltoids to prevent the muzzle end from printing. In all cases, concealment requires covering under a sportcoat, a bomber jacket, a windbreaker, or the like. Protecting the weapon under the arm in a scuffle is, if anything, easier than protecting it anywhere on the waist. Keep forward guard with the forearm and rear guard with the elbow.

I ride and collect Italian motorcycles. A Ducati sportbike arranges my anatomy over its gas tank in the position commonly described as a monkey molesting a football. A shoulder holster is the best solution for pistol carry in this situation. It is the second best solution while driving a car, inferior only to a raked crossdraw rig. As many others have pointed out, it is without equal in putting on in a hurry, though snap closure belt rigs are quicker to remove. Last, but not least, it affords the only way to remain readily armed whilst perusing a latrine.

For me, the biggest drawback of shoulder holsters is the reliance on a snap closure to retain the pistol against accidental release. Make sure that it is secure. Field replaceable one-way snaps are readily available. Use them.

[Preacherman]

A Ducati sportbike arranges my anatomy over its gas tank in the position commonly described as a monkey molesting a football.
Sounds tailor-made for SOB carry (for the football) ... :D

[Clean97GTI]

I've found that the best place to carry on a bike is in the tank bag. You can slip the weapon in the bag and have access to it by shoving your hand between the double zippers. The nice thing is you don't have to change your riding position to get your gun. When you get off the bike, you slip the weapon into the empty shoulder holster that keeps things tidy under your riding jacket.

[patentnonsense]

Partly this choice depends on the build of the person talking:
I've got more room in my armpits than in my pants!

[Mannlicher]

A shoulder rig really works best with a jacket, but a denim shirt worn open, over a tee shirt tucked in will do also. Bottom line, is that it requires more concealment than a pocket, ankle, or IWB holster.
Of the ones I have tried, I like Sam Andrews' Monarch.
www.andrewsleather.com

[LawDog]

Small-of-the-back and Middle-of-the-back holsters are a no-no on a motorcycle.

Remembering that if (when) you have an oopsie on your bike, you're either going to land and slide or land and crunch.

If you have cunningly placed a solid chunk of metal over your kidney or spine, when you land on that chunk of metal at motorcycle speeds, you've got a darn good chance of turning a walk-away accident into a ER visit and/or long-term back problems.

LawDog

[sacp81170a]

This isn't particularly a shoulder holster, but I carry a Taurus PT 145 in an Uncle Mike's body armor holster under the top elastic closure on the left side of a Point Blank IIIA vest for my BUG while on duty. I carry a Glock 22 on the left side of my duty rig, but I'm really ambidextrous when it comes to handguns. If my left arm becomes disabled, I can draw from inside my shirt with the right hand very quickly(velcro closures instead of buttons for the two middle buttons). This is very comfortable on long shifts and isn't terribly conspicuous. A lot of my fellow officers are carrying Kel-Tecs and the like in a similar rig. It sure beats carrying in the pocket or cargo pockets of BDU type uniforms. Nothin' better for a quick reload than to grab another gun, BTW. :D

[Sleuth]

Sacp, I read this "New York Reload" from time to time (grab your 2nd gun), and I must ask:
How often do you train this?
That is, how often do you shoot your main gun, and then just drop it and grab your BUG? I mean live fire, under stress like a timer, not standing over your bed at home. You may be the exception, but far too many of the officers I have met talk about this, but have rarely, if ever, actually tried it.

There is a video of one officer who got in a shooting, and reloaded, forgetting completely about his BUG in an ankle holster. He commented that he had practiced reloading hundreds of times, but had never practiced going for his BUG.

So, shoulder, ankle, IWB, left front pocket, where ever you carry your BUG, Training, Training, Training.

[sacp81170a]

I don't know about other departments, but my PD requires officers to shoot the standard qualification course (with some modifications for magazine capacity, etc.) with whatever weapon they plan to carry as a BUG. i.e., if I want to carry my Taurus PT 145 on duty, I have to use the holster I plan to carry it in to qualify and meet the same time and accuracy constraints as I do on my primary weapon. This means 3 2-shot strings from the holster in 2 seconds (per string) from 3 yards, same in 3 seconds at 7 yards, same in 3 seconds at 15 yards, and 6 shots, change mags, 6 more shots at 25 yards in 15 seconds. All two shot strings are from the holster, meaning we don't go to low ready for follow-up strings. Our training officer is careful to make sure we don't just return to the holster after two shots. We scan, and he may yell "Gun!" immediately after the order to holster is given and before everything is snapped and locked. Keeps us on our toes.

We must also meet the same standard with any handgun we want to carry off-duty, and the serial numbers and models are recorded on our training forms. This is on a B-27 target and 80% (240 points out of 300) is considered a passing score. This is our yearly "paper" qualification and we have quarterly qualifications that include tactical scenarios with deployment from vehicles, moving targets, etc. The scenario that resulted in me getting a BUG involved the RO announcing "from the supine position, feet facing the target, draw and fire two shots with your weak hand" in one of our quarterly tactical qualifications. Damn! That let out the behind the back weak hand draw that I had been practicing. First chance, I copied the other guys and started carrying a BUG.

For the record, our Chief has been to Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, and he thoroughly believes in giving his officers every chance to survive a lethal force encounter and any ensuing lawsuits. As a small town PD, even with us part timers, there's not much in the way of readily available backup. I hope other departments are as thorough in their firearms training.

YMMV, but this is a good training regimen for anyone who CCW's, if you can find a range that will let you train in this manner. Problem with a shoulder holster is that only one person can be on the firing line at a time to prevent sweeping others with the muzzle of a loaded weapon. We partially solve this by having one guy or gal with a shoulder holster at whatever end of the firing line puts the muzzle away from others on the line. Saves some time, but it still makes for a long day at the range(nine or ten hours last time, with rifle and shotgun quals included).

As you say, training, training, training!

Added note: with a shoulder holster, you *must* practice proper technique. Shooting yourself in the brachial artery as you draw is a not considered a good way of ending the fight! :D Practice getting the off arm out of the way, up and to one side or the other, depending on circumstances.

[Sleuth]

Sounds like a great training program overall, and a good Chief to work for.

But what is missing is that "New York Reload" training, of firing your service gun, and then going to your BUG. You might suggest that to your training officer.
I am a big fan of what I call "Intigrated Training", where you must employ some or all of your defensive tools in any given scenario. So, you may start with verbal commands, go to OC, then to main gun, then to BUG. "IT" is the way to make transitions seamless.

Stay safe out there.

[sacp81170a]

Good points. "Paper qualification" and practical training tend to be entirely different. The former establishes minimum standards and documentation to protect the PD from one avenue of attack by lawsuit, while the other is meant to hone practical skills. We train to transition from a long arm (shotgun or rifle) immediately to the sidearm in the event of a malfunction, but I don't think we've ever done the "shoot dry and transition to BUG" in any tactical scenarios. We *have* done "strong arm is disabled go for your BUG" drills. Another thing to add to the reportoire. Thanks for the idea.

[GT]

Law Dog:
enceinte
Charming turn of phrase, especially for a gun list.

It's not just falling on a bike that can mess you up, just slipping on the ice and having that chunk of steel jammed into your vitals by whatever you hit could ruin your day (or quite a bit longer).

Also we seem to be talking LEO vs General Public.
As a LEO you are more likely to get into gun retention scuffles than the GP.
Your average guy just wants to have his gun handy without constantly hauling his pants up.

And if it was good enough for James Bond (chamois leather with PPK) then I can't complain :)

G

[sacp81170a]

Also we seem to be talking LEO vs General Public.

You're right, so to bring things back to the original topic, "What's the point of a shoulder rig?" So far we seem to have the following considerations:

Pluses:

1. More convenient to access, whether due to physical infirmities, mode of transportation, or body position(i.e., maybe flat on your back due to a fall or takedown, strong arm disabled, etc.).

2. More comfortable to carry in many circumstances.

3. Easier to retain in event of a scuffle.

4. Easier to don and take off. Not an inconsequential consideration.

Minuses:

1. More clothing is required to conceal a shoulder holster. Depending on climate, this could be a problem.

2. Difficulty in getting realistic practice. Most of the ranges in my area won't even let folks they don't know very well draw from a belt holster and fire. Potentially sweeping others on the range with one's muzzle while drawing would be a major no-no. This may be the biggest drawback of all, IMHO.

Can anyone think of anything to add to either list?

(Woops, just noticed Centac included several of these in his list. Disregard my redundancies.) :D

[LawDog]

Charming turn of phrase, especially for a gun list.

Take it up with my 98-year-old grandmother -- she's the one who taught it to me.

LawDog

[Dirty Bob]

I can wear a pistol under an ordinary buttoned shirt with no problem. My holster is a Null SMZ, so there is no strapping on my back to print, just the single narrow strap that passes across the back of my neck.

The draw's not real fast, but my Makarov is invisible, and the SMZ design means that you don't "sweep" the muzzle horizontally. The draw stroke is lift slightly and rotate the butt to the forward position -- kinda like a "half Sabrina," in front of your left armpit.

The SMZ is a very convenient and comfortable home carry rig (no carry away from home until my TX CHL arrives).

All my best,
Dirty Bob