I hate E-bay


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Daemon688
May 25, 2005, 02:39 AM
I tried to sell an AK-47 cleaning kit on e-bay only to have it removed. I thought it would be ok, so I sent an e-mail asking why. Here's the response I got.

________________________________________________________________
Hello,

Thank you for writing eBay.

I have reviewed the item in question and have determined it was removed
correctly. Your item was reviewed by an eBay customer support
representative, who found the auction to be in violation of our
policies. Accessories for assault weapons (including cleaning kits for
the AK-47) are not allowed on eBay.

eBay has recently revised its Firearms Policy so that the sale of any
assault weapon-related parts or accessories will no longer be permitted.
This will apply to all parts and accessories related to any firearm
defined as an "assault weapon" by either Federal or California law. In
addition, the sale of any firearm receiver or firearm frame will not be
permitted. While this policy has always been in place, this ban will now
also include complete receivers and frames, components and parts of
receivers and frames, "cut", "80%", or "partially complete" receivers.

The primary reason that eBay has changed its policy is that various
state and federal laws are particularly complex when it comes to
regulating, and even defining, assault weapons parts and accessories.
What is legal in one jurisdiction may be illegal in another, and as the
category grew, it became increasingly difficult for us to enforce a
consistent policy. To keep our community from inadvertently violating a
firearms law, and to simplify our enforcement into a policy that would
be fair and consistent to all sellers, we took the step of banning all
parts and accessories related to assault weapons. This decision was made
purely to help protect our community from inadvertently violating
firearms laws, and for enforcement reasons. eBay takes no position on
the gun control issue. eBay will continue to allow the sale of hunting
rifle parts and accessories because the laws surrounding the sale of
these items are much simpler and thus easier to enforce.

We appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter, and
wish you continued success on eBay.

Regards,

Guillermo
Community Watch Team
eBay Trust & Safety
________________________________________________________________


Great, since my brushes, oiler can, and rod are considered assault weapons now, do I need a permit to buy them? :banghead: Who thinks I should re-list this as a SKS cleaning kit? :p

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LiquidTension
May 25, 2005, 02:52 AM
AFAIK the sks and ak kits are the same - go for it.

I'm also of the opinion that the ebay owners need for someone to forcibly remove their heads from their rears. On the other hand, I'm all for business owners being able to set their own policies...the answer is to not do business with them. Unfortunately, most businesses will never feel the effects of such action on our part due to the tremendous lack of enthusiasm for boycotting such businesses.

www.gunbroker.com
www.auctionarms.com
www.gunsamerica.com

And of course, our own for sale section here on THR.

71Commander
May 25, 2005, 06:17 AM
AFAIK the sks and ak kits are the same - go for it.

I don't advise this. I tried the same thing and got suspended. :fire: :mad:

Commissar Gribb
May 25, 2005, 06:26 AM
they can't say much if you're selling a "cleaning kit for a russian style sporting rifle with 16" barrel"

;)

280PLUS
May 25, 2005, 07:18 AM
Or just a "gun cleaning kit"

EBAY is really out there these days :rolleyes:

HighVelocity
May 25, 2005, 08:17 AM
I managed to grab a HI CAP (12 round) pistol magazine on ebay before the overlords spotted it the other day. :neener:

There is so much stuff on ebay the only way something gets removed is if someone reports it.

TC66
May 25, 2005, 10:19 AM
How about a cleaning kit for a Russian 7.62x39 rifle with 16 inch barrel? If anyone has questions they can email you directly using ask the seller. You can confirm what it is at that time.

Sistema1927
May 25, 2005, 10:31 AM
List it for free on the War Rifles Auction Site (http://www.warrifles-auctions.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl) .

rick_reno
May 25, 2005, 10:40 AM
I stopped buying and selling there - their policies reflect what a Hillary presidency would look like. List it here, it's free.

Harry Tuttle
May 25, 2005, 10:43 AM
what i dont get is that is was shopping for a gernade launcher site on ebay and they are listed as:

?
WW2 M15 Grenade Launcher Sight WITH Drilling Jig
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4721&item=6534277957&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Dear User:

Unfortunately, access to this particular category or item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in your home country. Based on our discussions with concerned government agencies and eBay community members, we have taken these steps to reduce the chance of inappropriate items being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases this policy may prevent users from accessing items that do not violate the law. At this time, we are working on less restrictive alternatives. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause you, and we hope you may find other items of interest on eBay.

Thank You.

Hit the return button to return to the previous page.

Control Group
May 25, 2005, 10:59 AM
Perhaps I'm just being an ebay apologist, but I really don't find that email all that offensive. Sounds to me like they're exactly right. We all complain all the time about there being so many gun laws in so many places with so many different details that it's impossible to keep track of; what makes us think that ebay can do so? I understand their policies completely. Look at the number of threads just on THR just asking about how to legally transport a legally-owned and completely "benign" firearm across various states (like NY), and look at how many disparate answers get posted. And we're people who, by and large, make an effort and have a personal interest in knowing these things. Now change transportation of an unquestionably legal firearm into facilitating the sale of firearms, change personal interest to passing business interest (it's not like gun owners are their primary demographic), and I think it's pretty obvious why this is going on.

Doesn't mean I don't want them changed, of course, but I don't think it's fair to blame ebay for this one. Instead, blame the insanely bloated network of picayune laws that have accreted around gun ownership over the last seventy years.

various state and federal laws are particularly complex when it comes to regulating, and even defining, assault weapons parts and accessories. What is legal in one jurisdiction may be illegal in another, and as the category grew, it became increasingly difficult for us to enforce a consistent policy.
This strikes me as a completely accurate, honest, and understandable policy on their part. Is anyone going to argue that the definition of "assault weapon" isn't vague, isn't subject to interpretation and change at the whim of TPTB, or that firearm regulations are consistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction? I didn't think so.

We all know that a cleaning kit and a firearm are two completely different things, just like we all know there's no reason an 80% should be a problem for them. But from an implementation standpoint, consider the chore ebay faces if they have to sift through every firearm-related offering and make sure that it's legal everywhere they do business?

"For auction: 80% 1911 frame, package includes slide assembly, trigger assembly, and barrel. This is not a functional firearm, machining (cutting slide rails, drilling holes) required, assembly required."

"For auction: 80% 1911 frame, package includes slide assembly, trigger assembly, and barrel. This is not a functional firearm, machining (cutting slide rails, drilling holes) required (will perform before shipping on request), assembly required."

The legal difference is obvious if you know anything about 80% frames and their legal status, but do you really expect the average ebay employee to understand why one is legal without an FFL and one isn't? Ebay has decided to avoid any potential legal quagmire by not facilitating the transfer of guns via their web site. This may or may not be a policy I like, but it's a legitimate business decision, just like my local flea market doesn't allow FFLs to set up booths. Once that single, legitimate, decision has been made, this policy is a natural and logical conclusion, given the vast complexity of firearm laws.

Basically, it amounts to "don't go to ebay to buy or sell gun accessories," which, to me, is no different than "don't go to Pick'N'Save to buy gun accessories" or "don't go to THR to buy or sell sticks of RAM."

*shrug*

mrhuckins
May 25, 2005, 11:03 AM
Its Ebay's store, and they can list what they want, this is America after all. You guys are whining about nothing. Take your business elsewhere, it's not like Ebay is the only place where you can sell that item. THR has a way to sell items of this nature, as well as several other online sites. Take advantage of their services, and then send Ebay another email saying how they lost out on your business, along with a reciept showing them how much money they lost out on due to their unfair policies. That will show them. :rolleyes:

Old Fuff
May 25, 2005, 11:11 AM
I have an easy answer:

E-Bay doesn't want this stuff on their auction site. So be it. :cuss:

A lot of others do - including The High Road.

So forget E-Bay, and go to the sites that like you. You'll still sell your stuff, and you may even do better because the people that are looking for guns or gun-related accessories will more likely be looking where they will find them.

I need E-Bay like an extra hole in my head. They don't like me - they don't get my money. :evil:

Johnnybgood
May 25, 2005, 11:24 AM
is the best place to get the best price when selling non-gun items. I think from here on out anything I sell on ebay I am going to offset the negative that my monies bring them by donating 10% of what I receive to either the NRA or the Second Amendment Foundation. :mad:

client32
May 25, 2005, 11:28 AM
Control Group is on my lines of thinking.

Ebay is a business. They want to remain a business and make money. They have found that by being restrictive in this (and other areas) they are able to avoid costly lawsuits needless hassle. Yes, they probably do lose some money by not allowing these things to be offered.

Ebay could take up the gun owners fight, but that isn't their primary business.

JamisJockey
May 25, 2005, 11:33 AM
"Cleaning kit for 7.62x39"
I hate ebay too, but its kinda like Wal-Mart....a Love/Hate relationship.

Old Fuff
May 25, 2005, 11:54 AM
I still don't have much use for E-Bay, but I think Johnnybgood has the best answer for those that do.

Commissar Gribb
May 25, 2005, 11:58 AM
I'm looking at some bayonets and some challenge coins on ebay- it's wrong to support them but they have such great stuff! :fire:

jefnvk
May 25, 2005, 12:15 PM
Do take a look at their policy. Pretty much anything that may be illegal anywhere is not allowed to be sold. I'm not blaming them, they are in Cali after all. Whose to say that if someone bought a high cap magazine off there, had it sent to Cali, shot up some place, that the state wouldn't hold EBay responsible?

OTOH, I nearly bought an AR15 'sporting' upper on there , with the flash hider and bayonet lug ;)

Mostly though, I hate eBay because people get into biding wars, and end up sppending more on used stuff than you can buy it new for :banghead: It's not a good place to get anything common.

dolanp
May 25, 2005, 01:01 PM
Basing your business in California has its ill effects.

Graystar
May 25, 2005, 02:44 PM
I'll have to check to be 100% sure, but I believe that ebay is bound by California law not to sell "assault weapon" related items. So it's a little more than just a policy decision...ebay doesn't want cops knocking on its doors.

I believe that in India the head ebay person was arrested because a teen sex video was being sold on the site.

http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y04/m12/i20/s01

Standing Wolf
May 25, 2005, 03:10 PM
I don't do business with companies that practice shameless anti-Second Amendment bigotry.

Zundfolge
May 25, 2005, 05:21 PM
The problem isn't eBay ... the problem is federal and state governments out of control ... making laws willy nilly that cannot easily be followed (which is the point ... see my sig).

I don't blame eBay from trying to keep themselves out of trouble because THEY will end up in court if there are "illegal" transactions taking place on their servers.


We all bitch and moan about how eBay is nothing but a bunch of anti-2A bigots, but they aren't the ones that write the laws and then murder the wives/children/dogs of those who MIGHT have broken them.

2nd Amendment
May 25, 2005, 06:23 PM
Been suspended from ebay once or twice. Just make another acct and go ahead with what you were doing.

Can'thavenuthingood
May 25, 2005, 09:52 PM
Ebay not allowing firearms and related equipment on their site is a symptom of the problem.

Like Wal-Mart not selling guns anymore in **********.

Like the Navy Exchange system not selling guns, rifles, air guns, bows and arrows or peashooters and slingshots.

Like my local harware store no longer selling firearms or ammo.

The problem is the potlickers making laws and the bureaucrats providing further definition of same in the name of "Administrative Law" rules, regulations, ordinance's, fees, certifications, surcharges, qualifications and dismemberment.
It's a swamp of requirements and brutal consequences.

Even the FFL's are standing on spongy ground.

Vick

coyote Mak
May 25, 2005, 11:32 PM
I have to go with the thinking that its mostly to do with Cali laws and federal laws. if you read there rules of does and dont's, It is spelled out quite clearly that they basically don't want to deal with big brother. 95% of the items sold on eBay are non gun items and a big portion of that is on old collectibles or garage sale junk. I have sold 4 sets of Makarov grips and a mak holster, along with 3 sets of S&W grips and 2 gunsmithing books. the only time i was Questioned was the first set of Makarov grips. they wanted to now if they had anything to do with assault weapons. when i explained to them what they were, a set grips for a 8 round Russian made handgun, they said no problem and thanked me for clearing it up. If you use it for what its meant for, it works just great. If you need to sell something gun related that big brother has a law on, then its better to come to a gun board and conduct business.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

JMag
May 26, 2005, 12:49 AM
E-bay is its own worst enemy...

vis35
May 26, 2005, 04:58 AM
I had E-bay yank an auction of mine for an AK-47 sling.

Yes, it is their house; they set the rules, yada, yada, yada.

Have you ever been cheated by one of their sellers? Ever try to get help from E-bay?

They will not do a thing for you; in fact they will suspend you if you try to complain about the person. The feedback system is a joke; I will not bid on an Item if the seller has less than a 99% rating. Nobody wants to post bad feedback and E-bay doesn’t care if you are cheated, or how many others the person has swindled before you.

coyote Mak
May 26, 2005, 11:12 AM
vis35
sounds like you got the royal shaft. what did you buy that the seller ripped you off on?. I have heard a lot of storys of bait and switch deals going on. I wonder if thats what happend to you.
:( :( :( :(

vis35
May 26, 2005, 02:45 PM
I have had two deals go bad, and one that is in the process of going bad right now.

Listed as a Japanese Papa Nambu holster, actually was a French Mle 1892 revolver holster. Eventually got a refund, no help from E-bay, but Mail Fraud statutes are quite useful and at least the Postal Inspectors are on your side.

A singed movie poster, the seller was in Canada, she provided a non-working e-mail and a bad address for snail mail. I had sent her payment of an International Postal Money Order and sent it by International Express Mail. Then she starts threatening me with bad feedback when she has not received payment or contact (remember, bad addresses both, she used E-bay’s contact system, not a direct e-mail). From the tracking number I could see that delivery had been attempted twice and it looked like it was being returned, so I immediately sent payment by PayPal (apparently what she wanted from the start) even though she had re-listed the poster. Eventually we got the poster, slightly damaged.

The deal going bad right now is on another poster (a friend of mine collects these, I have been bidding for him), the seller had bad feedback (96%, that is bad in my view) but we took a chance and bid anyhow, got it for his starting price, 99 cents + $5 shipping. Sent payment immediately, but I suspect that he doesn’t want to let it go for that, 10 days and no poster or contact. Just sent him an e-mail this morning, we shall see.

Basically, E-bay will yank your chain if you violate any of their rules to protect E-bay, but if someone cheats you they will do nothing for you. So when I see anyone listing anything against the rules or cheating E-bay (side deals, ECT) I just cheer them on.

Sorry if I went a bit long, but it is good for the soul to vent! :)

ocabj
May 26, 2005, 03:01 PM
The feedback system is a joke; I will not bid on an Item if the seller has less than a 99% rating. Nobody wants to post bad feedback and E-bay doesn’t care if you are cheated, or how many others the person has swindled before you.

It looks like you'll never buy anything from me. I have a 98.8% rating at this point in time (163 pos and 2 neg out of 165)...

You think the feedback system is a joke, yet you base your item selection on the feedback of the person selling it?

I believe the feedback system works, but people put too much emphasis on having a perfect rating and this is what causes people to get into negative feedback threats/wars. I hate how sellers won't leave positive feedback after receiving a payment and will only leave feedback until after the buyer leaves positive feedback for them just to retaliate against the buyer if the buyer leaves negative feedback. Whenever I sell something and I receive payment, I'll leave positive feedback because as far as I'm concerned, they held up their part of the deal by paying.

I don't like some of the 'Disney'-like policies on ebay, either, but who am I to tell someone how to run their business? We all hate ebay's attitude towards firearms related sales, but you all know deep down inside that most of us will still use ebay to buy/sell random stuff.

71Commander
May 26, 2005, 03:18 PM
I got my first negative this week. Have 1550 + feedbacks. Buyer didn't like me sending a 2nd payment notice after two weeks of waiting. For 19.99 and her blessing, Ebay will take it off. I'll stay with 99.9 :cool:

vis35
May 26, 2005, 04:26 PM
It looks like you'll never buy anything from me. I have a 98.8% rating at this point in time (163 pos and 2 neg out of 165)...

Actually, if the negs were old, I would buy from you. I realize you just can not make all the people happy all the time. It is a judgment call. The poster I bid, on the guy had 96%, and two of the recent feedbacks were negs, not surprised I am having problems with him.

You think the feedback system is a joke, yet you base your item selection on the feedback of the person selling it?

There is nothing else to use.

I believe the feedback system works, but people put too much emphasis on having a perfect rating and this is what causes people to get into negative feedback threats/wars.

I think it doesn’t work, but I agree completely with the second half of your sentence. Perhaps a better way for E-bay to run their feedback would be to change it to a rating of the transaction from 1 to 10 and just show the average of the total transactions, 6.5, 8.9, ECT. The current “all or nothing” system doesn’t allow folks to state that they were less than 100% satisfied.

I hate how sellers won't leave positive feedback after receiving a payment and will only leave feedback until after the buyer leaves positive feedback for them just to retaliate against the buyer if the buyer leaves negative feedback. Whenever I sell something and I receive payment, I'll leave positive feedback because as far as I'm concerned, they held up their part of the deal by paying.

I agree completely! But as a buyer (I both buy and sell there) I have noticed that trend and I will not leave feedback on those sellers. So again the feedback system doesn’t work.

I don't like some of the 'Disney'-like policies on ebay, either, but who am I to tell someone how to run their business?

I am their customer that is why. Without myself, and millions like me they would not have a business.

We all hate ebay's attitude towards firearms related sales, but you all know deep down inside that most of us will still use ebay to buy/sell random stuff.

Yes, you are right again, and until something better comes along, we are stuck with them. :( All other auction sites get a tiny fraction of their traffic. Auction Arms and Gunbroker only exist because E-bay will not allow the sale of firearms.

coyote Mak
May 26, 2005, 05:18 PM
I have to agree with all that has been said as far as there feed back system goes. i think to many people put to much stock in getting or judging by the feedback. right now they are the only game in town that has the ability to get your items out there were people can see them and buy them.
for better or worse I will stick with them until something better comes along that proves its up to the same level of exposure as eBay.
One thing though, they have some of the silliest rules there are as far as selling non gun Items.
But right now with no way of making a income because of a very bad back and not eligible for any kind of finical help from big brother, its the only Way for me to make money to help pay the bills and buy a few toys now and then, like a new gun. there are ways to beat them at there own game, you just have to be clever about it and out think the twits that monitor the auctions.
as for Bad deals, your going to run across people like that all the time. you just have to develop a sense of knowing when things just aren't right and stay away form them.
a lot of people that sell on eBay start there auctions out at .99 to get the lowest listing fee. but it backfires on them when people don't bid on there auction and there forced to sell at there list price. well to bad so sad, they need to learn to set there list price at there minimum price they want for there item.
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

thorn726
May 27, 2005, 03:49 PM
Ebay is jsut trying to avoid problems.
they are one of the best services ever invented, for millions of items. millions.
there are so many people making money on ebay from things you could not easily sell ever before. you cna find so many things that used to take for ever to search out
complain about laws, not about ebay

armedcitizen
May 27, 2005, 04:09 PM
I sold off a bunch of my childhood toys (GI Joe, Tonka, Hot Wheels, etc.) and made enough to buy a new Smith and Wesson revolver and a Bushmaster rifle, hundreds of rounds of ammo, several 30 rd. mags, with several hundred bucks left over. They may allow the sale of some firearm accessories but in my case, they definitely supported the purchase of two new firearms.

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00001552/SWTR214_target.jpg
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00001552/MVC006F.JPG

thorn726
May 27, 2005, 04:30 PM
Armed citizen, what's yer ebay name?
i wonder if i got any of your gijoes!!!!
heheh

logical
May 27, 2005, 06:54 PM
You can't go through life writting off every single company that choses not to deal in firearms. It's a business decision.

Ebay is the greatest invention since smokeless powder.

armedcitizen
May 27, 2005, 08:00 PM
Armed citizen, what's yer ebay name

Thorn,

On ebay I am jvm22187.

As far as feedback goes, I don't know how reliable it is. I recently got my first negative. Someone bought a textbook that I was selling for my brother in law and never paid. I contacted him several times and finally opened an unpaid item dispute on it. He responds with negative feedback. So now I have a - and I didn't do anything wrong.

coyote Mak
May 27, 2005, 08:53 PM
armed c
I now what you mean, you try and treat them like you want to be treated and they bitch about it. we had someone buy a solid walnut desk set of in and out trays(the executive type) for 10.00 and they cost right around 70.00+ new. they were in very nice condition and the person who bought them put a neg. on us because one had a little scratch and a very small dent. well we responded and buy the end of the day the husband had emailed us several times and agreed to a mutual withdrawal. seems his wife expected something for nothing and it was her first time buying on ebay. until something better comes along it is the best game in town and reaches the whole planet. one persons junk is another's treasure. we have sold to people in Canada,France and Australia. without ebays services my wife and i would probably be living out of our car, so I am not going to bit the hand that helps feed me and just play buy there rules and when it comes to gun stuff i will go to the appropriate web sites to do my gun business.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

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