[Rod Farva]

Hi guys, just looking for a small CCW piece and it seems like a .380 is not too shabby based on the Marshall?Sanow stopping power statistics.

Anyway, the smallest guns I've found are the Walther and the Bersa, but on another post someone was having some reliability problems with his Bersa. Now I am leaning toward the PPK/s based on this negative firsthand account.

The Walther has a good name behind it, and I bet it would be more reliable.

Thoughts?

[SouthpawShootr]

Search around on both. You'll find the positive comments about the Bersa far outweigh the relatively few complaints.

Walther PPK/S guns, particularly stainless American made ones, have a well known reputation for being finicky with spotty reliability. Now I've heard that S&W improved reliability (along with a few other things) of the PPK/s since they started making them under license. Also, you can expect the PPK/s to need significant break-in before becoming reliable. My own Interarms manufactured gun didn't become reliable until after the 500 round mark. I wouldn't hesitate to get a S&W made PPK/S, b/c I've had excellent experiences with S&W customer service. You have a problem with the gun, they'll fix it.

[Rod Farva]

Thanks Soutpawshooter for not making me do a search. Frankly, I have better things to do than sit on here all day, and besides, I was hoping for the most up-to-date thinking on the matter, which you provided.

About 15 ears ago I had a Bersa .380 which I got rid of due to occasional jamming, which was sad since it was a nice gun. I didn't know if the new ones were any different after that other guy's post.

I wouldn't worry about it, but I seem to attract the few "exceptions to the rule" guns. Didn't want to take any chances.

Think I'll go with the Walther PPK/S made by Smith and Wesson, as I too have had great customer service from them. I hear they don't kick as much due to the steel frame.

[dasmi]

Bersa.

[birddog]

Love my Bersa. Never had a PPK.

[Gunnutz13]

would be the Walther PPK/s. I own a blued German Walther made in Ulm in 1972. Since it's a blowback design, the spring was really stiff and it took a lot of rounds down range to loosen it up to a point where I didn't get stovepipes. But now that's it broken in...I've used it as a CCW when I needed to conceal under light clothing. I have no experience with a Bersa...

:evil:

[Rod Farva]

Just curious,

How many rounds through your Bersa's?

How many rounds do you guys think the Bersa will last?

How's Bersa customer service?

[birddog]

I quit counting around 2000 rounds with my Bersa. Probably another 1000 since then.

To answer the "how long will it last"... Forever, I hope.

And customer service? Never had to deal with them. The gun has been flawless.

[Kramer Krazy]

My wife and I both have the new Bersa Thunder 380s in Duotone finish. They haven't has a single issue with feeding or extracting and they shoot quite accurately. Each gun has about 700 rounds through each, both FMJ and HP and brass and steel cases. They seem to eat anything we give them, but....we did start seeing problems around round #350 in one gun and round #400 in the other (consecutive serial numbers)

Both of our guns are having problems with the slide catch. Sometimes they will hold open on the last round, sometimes they won't. Sometimes they will close with the mag out with the slightest bump to the gun or when you slide a magazine into it. At first it looked like the one magazine had the slide catch notch cut too deeply in the follower, not allowing the follower to push the slide catch up far enough (a free replacement follower arrived in three days, from me just emailing the distributor). Now, it looks like that is compounded with a rounding of the edge on the slide and a rounding of the slide catch itself allowing this to happen a little more readily. The slide notch is also cut at a slight angle, so this ramping of the notch and catch can also be a slight cause of the slide not staying open. I've been tempted on taking a file to the slide catch and slide to make a straight 90-degree notch in them. One guy at www.bersatalk.com is on his second slide catch. I haven't checked to see if this second slide catch repaired his problem.

I also have noticed that the decock/safety lever appears to be mushrooming part of the slide where the lever snaps into the "fire" mode. I believe the slide is a fairly soft steel.

Other than this issue with the slide catch, the gun is very reliable, accurate, and fun to shoot.

[Spot77]

Rented both, bought the BERSA.


Never regretted it.

[Rob1035]

my dad has a Interarms PPK/S and the DA pull is atrocious. Go for the bersa, a better gun to shoot, for half the money

[REDCELL]

Niether, The Walther always has problems feeding, search other forums for more on this. Plus the trigger has to be broken in. The Bersa is much better and cheaper. But Go with the CZ83. Its built nicer than both in my opinion, no problems in over 700 rounds, great bluing job. Serious make a good investment

[ChuckB]

My Bersa has settled in as a reliable shooter. It wasn't at first, jamming a lot with some ammo and not others. It shoots FMJ and HP well now. I'm on my second slide latch, and I took a file to it so it would work. I cut a small ledge for the spring to rest in. I'm not real unhappy about it not staying open on an empty mag, though. My revolvers also let me know they're empty. They say "click".

Chuck :)

[outofbattery]

Have you considered a used SIG P230 or 232 ? IME they're a nicer pistol than the Walther or Bersa , easier to shoot as well . It's the most natural pointing pistol I've ever had and is tremendously accurate for its size and purpose and thought it's a little snappy , it doesn't tend to punish the hand like the PPK .

[bad LT]

Get the PPK (it attracts the ladies).

[Combat-wombat]

Of these options, I'd say the PPK is much cooler, and coolness just can't be beat.

However, I would recommend the Sig Sauer P232 over either of these options if that's a choice you have. I have one and it balances and feels perfect in the hand, is reliable (not one jam yet- and it was bought used), and relatively accurate.

[Onmilo]

When you look at both guns you will see that the Bersa is something of a ripoff of the Walther without the pull down triggerguard takedown.

The Bersa is less expensive and showing themselves to be fairly excellent weapons for the money involved.

I have shot Walther PP guns for years and have always felt the .380 caliber pistols were far less reliable than the .32 acp or .22 LR caliber versions.

The Bersa seems to have worked out the functional reliability issue with this design in he .380 acp caliber.

For the money it can be a serious contender to any .380 caliber Walther, however, with lots of used .32 acp caliber Walther and Manhurin PP guns on the market for less than $400.00, if you don't have a caliber fetish, these are a serious pistol to look at compared to the Bersa.

[The Drew]

Bersa Duotone... $189@gander mountain... reliable with anything I've put through it... HP's and almost all manner of cheap range ammo...

The Bersa is a copy on another .380 a browning I think... but it is also similar to the walther...

BTW the magazine safety can be disabled by the simple removal of a spring...

[HighVelocity]

I'm going with the Sig crowd on this one. A 230 or 232 beats both the Bersa and the Walther hands down imho.

[gbelleh]

I've owned a PPK/S and a Bersa .380. The PPK does look cool, but based on my personal experience, I wouldn't trust the PPK for carry. I do trust the Bersa. It has been 100% reliable.

[wasrjoe]

Uncle has a Bersa. Seems like a fine little gun. He shoots it well, I shot it well, appears to be reliable. Not my cup of tea, but a good gun. No experience with a PPK.

[MICHAEL T]

Both my Bersa and PPK/s have been trouble free. For the price of a new PPK you can get 2 Bersa's . I would go with the Bersa.

[Brian41]

I have a bersa as does my father, mine was used-i've put 350+ rnds through it, and dad has probably put close to 500 through his (purchased new). Both of us have fired a friends PPK/S and both of us prefered the bersa. The beaver tail on the bersa protects agains hammer bite.. which was an issue for both of us as we have larger hands. I also like that the bersa has a slide that can be manually locked back, not only after the final round is fired as with the walther i fired.

As per bersa customer service... EXCELENT!!! my second hand series 95 recently had the trigger spring break, and despite the fact that i was the second owner, bersa completely refurbished the gun.... all new springs, completely new trigger assembly, etc..

not to mention the fact that you could by 2 bersas for the price of one walther....

this guy says go for the bersa

[Zeke Menuar]

Between the two choices, Bersa.

If weight isn't an issue, look up the CZ-83. 13+1 capacity, accurate and has a real good trigger.

ZM

[Vernal45]

Both will serve you well. The Bersa is half the price, so if you want a good gun, for not a lot of money, Go Bersa. If you want a Walther, get the PPK.

[Lone Star]

Is it too far off subject to mention the Beretta M-85? Berettas are legendary for working.

Lone Star

[Rod Farva]

Got the S&W Walther PPK/S and couldn't be happier. I like the looks much better but it was the all-stainless construction that got me.

NO hammer bite on the new Walthers BTW, the tang has been re-desighed.

Workmanship is first-rate and the gun is beautiful, a work of art in my eyes.

NO malfunctions with Win. white box TC's.

I actually like the DA trigger. It's heavy to start it, but once it goes it rolls on through WITHOUT moving the gun off target! I couldn't believe it, accurate DA shots.

The SA trigger is to die for, about 3 lbs. and crisp, making fast follow-up shots very accruate and easy.

Accuracy is exceptional.

The sights are a total slap in the face. Why they re-designed the gun but left them is beyond me, it's the only flaw the gun has. The 1920's-era front site is just too small and short to pick up quickly, and to add insult to injury, the gun shoots high, meaning there was absolutely no reason whatsoever Smith couldn't have slapped on a taller combat site. I prefer instinctive point shooting for defense, so it doesn't make it any less useful, but still it would have been nice for paper-punching.

Recoil is not bad at all, very 9mm-ish to me, but not as loud. The gun fits my small hand perfectly. I rather like the .380 cartridge now after this experience.

I don't care what anyone says on here, NO ONE IS MAKING A 9MM COMPACT THIS SMALL. This gun is very slim and tiny, small enough to be carried comfortably in my front jeans pocket with a long shirt un-tucked. It's what I'll be using for CCW.

I am impressed enough with the gun's reliability, accuracy, and ease of shooting that I do not mind the weaker .380 ballistics. Put bluntly, if you want more power you are going to have to carry a much bigger, heavier gun, which I am not really able to do in my pockets.

Thanks for all your help guys.

[Rod Farva]

Actually I am considering getting another .380 on down the road as I like this one so much. I am going to be buying lots of .380 ammo to have on hand for the PPK, and my wife has a Mak in .380, so it just seems natural to start collecting them. I have kind of fallen in love with the cartridge for some weird reason.

I don't have enough guts to order the CZ-83 without ever handling one though.

As for the Beretta, I have been looking hard at the Browning BDA. I'd rather have the Beretta but the BDA is so much cheaper ...

[Gunnutz13]

...the reason for the small sights is that this is not a target pistol...it's a belly gun...meant for up close and personal self defense. The caliber, length of the barrel and small frame dictate this. When I take my PPK/s ( .380 ), my Colt M1908 Hammerless ( .380 ), or my Makarov ( 9x18 ) out to the range, my target is no farther than 5 yards away...I not trying to hit a target at 25 yards. It's all about being able to present from concealment and point shoot. Nine times outta ten in a self defense shooting...the guns sights are not utilized. And at greater distances...I go for the AR. :evil:

[xdoctor]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Makarov yet.

"Walther PPK, only three men in the world use such a weapon... and I've killed two of them."

anyone remember what bond movie that came from?

[Frandy]

I do believe it is from GoldenEye. :neener:

[Gunnutz13]

is "The World is not Enough" ( 1999)...Electra King the oil heiress / kidnap victim and Renard the kidnapper / guy with bullet in head who feels no pain.

The ex-KGB agent with the caviar factory is Valentin Zukovsky...it is he who delivers the line posted above... reminding Bond that he still has a bullet is his leg from when Bond shot him.

And the movie title is Bond's family crest motto !

:evil:

[Tomac]

Another suggestion for the Makarov: Rugged, extremely reliable, surprisingly accurate, more powerful than the .380 (115gr JHP @ 1,000fps although you can rebarrel for .380 if you wish), mags/parts/ammo are inexpensive & plentiful & the all-steel Mak costs less than the PPK/S or Bersa.
Tomac

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/Makarovs001s.jpg

[The_Shootist]

Great gun! Easy to shoot/clean/conceal. Feeds everything (has about 1000 rds so far with another 200 set to go this weekend. Stffed with the Speer Gold Dot, its a viable self defense pistol.

However, just for fun was thinking about picking up a Mak - its just that they seem to be a bit too heavy for pocket carry.

[Marshall]

Get this new Walthersa. Best of the Walther and Bersa.





http://www.sigarms.com/documentation/wallpaper/wp_232_800.jpg

[PowderBurn]

I have a Bersa, and just bought a new stainless PPK. I second Rod Farva's impression: The PPK is a beautiful piece of work, and performs as good as it looks. Easy to shoot, no bite, ACCURATE! I don't mind the sights at all - they're an improvement over my S&W M60 snubby. And I prefer them to the Bersa three-dot system as well.

I'm still a Bersa fan, but I just don't drool over it like I do the PPK.

[Rod Farva]

Powderburn, my new PPK/S just has a lot of class in a classless world of "tactical" (aka cheap-looking) autos. I wish I knew where I could get some lasergrips for the S&W, or even some slick faux mother of pearl grips at least.

[Rod Farva]

Oh, and someone suggested the Makarov. Nice choice but if you read my posts I mention I already have one in .380, which I like but not nearly as much as the PPK/S.

I can't for the life of me figure out why people advocate the Maks so much. It was half the price of the Walther, and frankly, it feels like it. It's bigger, uglier, kind of clunky, and has poor ergonomics for me.

Mine is in .380 as I see no point whatsoever in chasing down mail order 9x18mm when I could just buy .380's at Wal-Mart with my groceries. People on here are always saying how "plentiful" 9x18mm is - well, maybe in Russia, but not around here.

My wife liked the .380 Mak though so she bought it and it works for her, but I feel it's kinda big for a .380 that's a carry gun.

[Chrontius]

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned the Kel-Tec P-3AT. Teriffically small, great customer service, and having dry-fired one that's been broken in, that trigger is as smooth as glass. While the stuff I've read on the 'Net is mixed, I'd guess that everyone that's ever had a problem posts flames on the Kel-Tec boards; everyone I've talked to in person has loved theirs.

Hopefullly, I'm going to get to try one (specifically, that one I dry-fired) sometime this week. :)

[Fred Fuller]

Was wondering if I was going to be the first to mention the P3AT. Guess not, but not by much.

It is a great little pistol. Tiny, so light it all but disappears in a pocket (with pocket holster of course), it is a true always gun and in a reasonable caliber to boot. Ours (wife and I) are factory hardchrome, maybe that contributes to the total reliability we've had, with a variety of ammo, or maybe we are just lucky. It is not an fun pistol to shoot a lot, but that really isn't what it's for (finger extensions on magazines really do help, the Bersa .380 extension goes right on with no mods). It really is a belly gun and it works well in that role for us. Just don't limp-wrist it, and for sure keep it clean and well lubed.

I read all the boards before buying, heard of all the problems, decided trying it was the only way to really know. Our experience with them has been completely good.

lpl/nc