Is Osama bin Laden a genius?


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Fletchette
May 28, 2005, 02:32 AM
First off, I absolutely do not support Osama bin Laden or his cause. I believe that his tactics are ethically bankrupt. But there is a fundamental difference between being "intelligent" and being ethically "good". For example, Rommel was a Nazi and killed plenty of Americans, yet he was by no means "stupid"; he is regarded as a brilliant strategist.

So, using the same arguement, Osama bin Laden has managed to kill thousands of Americans on American soil -AND- turn most of the world against the United States -AND- managed to get our government to enact repressive laws that are a direct assault on our liberty and way of life.

It seems to me that, militarily speaking, that Osama bin Laden has been extrodinarily successful in achieving his objectives.

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thorn726
May 28, 2005, 02:43 AM
hardly.
he's a good politician , that's all.
maybe a good speaker, i wouldnt say he's stupid, but genius?

a genius would not find his ridiculous actions or plans logical.
<smile/>

good he successfully got some idiots to kill themselves, and he is good a hiding in caves.
but where is the projected thinking? the actual realization of the rest of the world?

there is no hope whatsoever for success of el queeda, any idiot can see that.
they could endlessly lob their tiny bombs at people they dont like, but they will never actually change the world to think like them.
they might make us prepare for them, that's about it

Rebar
May 28, 2005, 02:55 AM
It seems to me that, militarily speaking, that Osama bin Laden has been extrodinarily successful in achieving his objectives.

Not really.

His objective is the destruction of Israel, and the conversion of all the world to Islam:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

He has not accomplished or advanced these goals. In fact, he has lost ground, losing his base in Afganistan, on the run, democratic elections in Afganistan and Iraq, in fact democracy is making inroads into most of the middle east - in direct opposition to his stated goals and desires.

By any standard, including his own, he is a dismal failure.

tyme
May 28, 2005, 03:20 AM
Perhaps his publically-stated goals are not his real goals.

Bacon
May 28, 2005, 03:27 AM
You stated:
"For example, Rommel was a Nazi and killed plenty of Americans, yet he was by no means "stupid"; he is regarded as a brilliant strategist."

You should get your facts straight. Rommel was not a Nazi. He defended his homeland. Nothing more. Nothing less.

RevDisk
May 28, 2005, 04:31 AM
Osama is very bright. Evil, yes. But I will not deny that he is very intelligent.

He is very good at organization. Managing resources. al Queda is nothing more than one of his databases of 'Afghan' veterans from the days he was fighting the Sovs. al Queda for all intensive purposes doesn't exist anymore except in concept. The names change, but the people do not. Groups merge, diverge, and change names very often to keep everyone off-balance.

Simply put, he killed many thousands of Americans, and was never caught. All said and done, he killed Americans, and was not properly punished for it.

Cosmoline
May 28, 2005, 05:29 AM
Whoever came up with the 9/11 plan was absolutely a genius. They hit us at our weakest point and did the maximum possible damage. And they brought the entire nation to a standstill--something no enemy had ever accomplished before. They used our own laws against us--taking advantage of the weapons-free zone on airplanes and the FAR's mandating full crew and passenger cooperation with hijackers. It was an attack of stunning simplicity and horrible carnage.

Whether or not the idea was OBL's or one of his underlings I don't know. Whoever it was, they haven't managed to repeat their success. Though lord knows with all the new laws we've created to trip ourselves they certainly could.

gunsmith
May 28, 2005, 05:41 AM
It's not to hard to sway world opinion against the USA our quisling MSM is eager to assist OBL on his propaganda campaign,the NY Times might as well be on his payroll-it certainly seems as if PBS & CBS are.

Our gov't is too eager to enact opressive laws anyway :fire:

unfortunately flechette,I feel your on the right track here,he has been adept at using our weaknesses against us.

:(

JohnBT
May 28, 2005, 07:34 AM
Genius? No, not by a long shot. He's no Einstein or Tesla. And he's certainly no Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela. I don't think he even qualifies as an evil genius.

Re: "-AND- turn most of the world against the United States"
First, a few outspoken politicians and rabblerousers on the nightly news do not prove the world is now against us. Heck, DeGaulle and the French hated us a half-century ago. The Russians too, and the East Germans, and the Libyans, and the Canadians, and the Japanese, and the Chinese and the Democrats. :)

John

rdbrowning
May 28, 2005, 07:35 AM
Rebar "His objective is the destruction of Israel, and the conversion of all the world to Islam. He has not accomplished or advanced these goals. In fact, he has lost ground, losing his base in Afganistan, on the run, democratic elections in Afganistan and Iraq, in fact democracy is making inroads into most of the middle east - in direct opposition to his stated goals and desires.

By any standard, including his own, he is a dismal failure."

I will disagree with your conclusion. He has lost his influence with those in control in Afganastan and Iraq. His influence over the hearts of the populace may be stronger than ever. And that is in the two nations that we took out their governments and replaced with our choice. What about all of the millions around the equatorial regions? Malaysia, Phillipeans, Affricia? Islam is growing deeper, stronger and more fervent every day.

Remember this is a religious war that has been going on for millinia, you have to think long term in your actions. No one action will win the war, it is merly a step towards a goal. If you want to destroy Israel you have to ask where does Israel's strength come from? Does America provide a lot of support to Israel finnancially, morally and politically? An attack on America is an attack on Israel's support. And his attack on America has ben sucessful beyond belief. One day's actions cost this country billions, maybe trillions of dollars. More importantly than America's monetary strength though is the strength that comes from freedom. And he managed to pour fertilizer on the seeds of our destruction and accelerate it's growth. The decline of our freedoms has progressed more in 5 years than in the previous 55. So in one move he reduced our capacity to support Israel with money and the shining example that we were to all of the world to what freedom could be. He may of also reduced our resolve / capacity to help Israel millitarialy. A physical attack on Israel now may be more productive with our attention and resources tied up elswhere. Not that he has the resources to attack Israel, but he knows that Israel has enemies that are opportunists. Talk about leveraging your assets!

If OSB is not a poli-sci / tactial genus, he is the luckest SOB that ever walked the face of this Earth.

gm
May 28, 2005, 08:45 AM
He's certainly no genius.He's very good at playing on peoples thoughts and using that. I would compare him to hitler and what he did post WW1 to garner support by playing on the peoples emotions for his own means but he made a big mistake and like hitler, has to hide in a bunker to stay alive. politically,he knows which buttons to push but he isnt a genius by any means.

If he were a genuis, he wouldnt be hiding in some hole now would he, if he were a genius, he wouldnt have better than half the world looking to get his head on a platter because of terrorist attacks and killing of innocents indiscriminatly.


When I think of osama , I think coward,idiot and dictator wannabe. his time is limited.

Rebar
May 28, 2005, 01:06 PM
Sure, he managed to kill innocent civilians. Big deal, the islamofacists have proven good at murdering defensless people. Not so great against people who can fight back.

I could sneak up behind Mike Tyson and suckerpunch him, does that make me a hero? What then do I become when he turns around and knocks me out cold, a genius because I provoked a fight I couldn't possibly win?

The islamofacists hated us before bin Laden, they hate us now, and they will always hate us in the future. Sure, 9/11 was a propaganda victory, but it's not a military victory, and all it's done is provoke a fight bin Laden and his merry band of islamofacist death worshipers cannot possibly win.

Worldwide, militant islam is on the run, and Israel is more secure than before. Non-muslems, who before really didn't know much about what was going on, are horrified at the murderous thugs who glorify themselves by murdering women and children. That's the story you won't hear on CBS.

In fact, we're still fighting this war with one hand tied behind our backs, one eye covered, and are still kicking the hell out of them. By any standard, we're winning, and we can and will win so long as our nerve holds out.

critter
May 28, 2005, 01:44 PM
OBL is one thing only---------RICH. With a little money in a severly impoverished region, he can 'command' many people if he plays his 'cards' (cash!) correctly.

The things they do are really rather simple and just require the patience to do a lot of tries to get SOME of them right.

Arc-Lite
May 28, 2005, 02:00 PM
the story on osama...is ongoing, and the final chapter is not yet written. he has taken advantange of an existing condition, and become its "leader"....leading from holes in the ground, and knowing at anytime, someone might step out from a bush, and slit his throat. from a directors stand point, he has had some success, and has had many failed plans, lost countries... and had more bad days then good. overall, he has given a new ralley cry, for his people to stand to... one we will be fighting, for many many years to come. when hate is your focus, reason is unimportant

IZinterrogator
May 28, 2005, 02:17 PM
He is good at brainwashing young Muslims, but that is it. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the true brains behind his operation, IMHO. Too bad for Osama that he is in custody.

joab
May 28, 2005, 02:57 PM
So, using the same argument, Osama bin Laden has managed to kill thousands of Americans on American soil He got lucky, our own cockiness and lack of attention to detail and unwillingness to play dirty had as much to do with his successful attacks as anything he did
AND- turn most of the world against the United States That's hard? He simply put a face on a sentiment already active in the world
managed to get our government to enact repressive laws that are a direct assault on our liberty and way of life. Again he simply put a face on and gave an excuse for the government doing what they wanted to do anyway

Is Osama bin Laden a genius? Hardly. He grossly miscalculated his enemy's response. In the face of overwhelming casualties ,captured officers, and inferior weapons he continues too pour more troops into a death trap with no chance of winning. Instead of retreating and regrouping.

Since the beginning of the war every plan he has had failed, every calculation has been wrong.
America did not run at the sight of her own blood
America did not demand the withdrawal of troops when the body count got too high
No government openly rallied to his side
The Iraqi people and all of Islam did not rise up against America

Hkmp5sd
May 28, 2005, 03:14 PM
And he's certainly no Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela.
Interesting choice for example. A woman who spent her life helping others paired with a communist & former terrorist.

Sindawe
May 28, 2005, 03:23 PM
Smart? Perhaps.

Cunning? Yes.

Genius? Not hardly.

His strategy to bring down the U.S., destroy Israel and convert the world to Islam has produced very poor yields. IMAO, his .org would have been better served with many smaller, dispersed attack that would have motivated the U.S. and its populace into a venomous anti-Islamic hatred, resulting in the burning of Mosques arcross the nation, while putting the financial and manpower resources available to it to appearing as a helpfull, though dedicated movement to aid mankind in general. Bombs/attacks on the enemies homeland, food, aid and education to the "oppressed masses".

Standing Wolf
May 28, 2005, 08:45 PM
You should get your facts straight. Rommel was not a Nazi. He defended his homeland. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Defending his homeland by waging war all over Europe and North Africa? Nope.

Sean Smith
May 28, 2005, 10:40 PM
Here is my take on OBL and Al-Qaeda.

The various scumbag Arab dicatorships running the Middle East have made the United States (along with Israel, of course) the scapegoat for all their problems for the last 50 years or so. And while there is no doubt that dumb US policies over the decades have created some of it, the bulk of it is politically convenient propaganda drivel with little basis in reality, repeated so often for so long that it has become accepted truth over there.

Osama didn't create the anti-American sentiment in the Middle East we have seen. He has exploited it skillfully for his own ends, but it has been a long time coming. If somebody else had blown up the world trade center, folks in the Middle East would still have thrown block parties like they did on 9/11.

Bin Laden isn't a genius. 9/11 was clever up to a point, but alot about it was also stupid and sloppy, e.g. retarded Arabs skipping pilot classes on the days they taught landing. Mostly he's a religious fanatic, a cult leader with more cash and guns than usual who is good at manipulating the bitter losers of the world.

I think it is a mistake to look at Bin Laden as the leader of a group that is just using terrorism as a strategy to accomplish a particular set of practical goals. Consider this: if their goal is to get infidels (i.e., us) out of the Middle East, 9/11 caused the exact OPPOSITE to happen. Furthermore, until 9/11, U.S. involvement in the Middle East was actually at a low ebb; we just weren't that interested in it, and with stable oil prices and not much else going on, we were getting less interested and involved in it every day. If Al-Qaeda had ANY practical goal to do ANYTHING in the Middle East, 9/11 was on the face of it the dumbest thing to do. Which raises the question, if a nutjob Islamic offshoot group doesn't want infidels out of the Middle East, what could they possibly want?

The answer is, 9/11 wasn't meant to accomplish anything practical. It was meant as a gesture, a way for psychological misfits to act out a fantasy in their head about how God loved them and hated everyone that wasn't in their little club of a-holes. It wasn't meant to impress the US to do or not do anything, it was meant to show off to the home audience of mental midgets in the Middle East.

Ultimately I think we've over-estimated them in the wake of 9/11 (me included). They are mean and clever, but ultimately delusional losers fighting a loser's game. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, or that we don't need to wipe them out, just that we've tended to blow them out of proportion.

Waitone
May 29, 2005, 12:34 AM
OBL was smart enough to wage war against the US economy. Where he screwed up was thinking like an Arab. Symbols are more important that achieving results. If he was interested in doing a number on the US, his four planes would have been targeted on the White House, Pentagon, Congress, and the Supreme Court. Now that would have smarted. Instead he was grandstanding to the arab street by attacking hated symbols. He violated rule one of realpolitik. . . .If you take a shot at the king you had better kill him. So now the US is PO'd and in his backyard.

OBL is Elvis. Zawahiri is Col. Tom Parker.

Sean Smith
May 29, 2005, 08:53 AM
OBL was smart enough to wage war against the US economy. Where he screwed up was thinking like an Arab. Symbols are more important that achieving results. If he was interested in doing a number on the US, his four planes would have been targeted on the White House, Pentagon, Congress, and the Supreme Court. Now that would have smarted. Instead he was grandstanding to the arab street by attacking hated symbols. He violated rule one of realpolitik. . . .If you take a shot at the king you had better kill him. So now the US is PO'd and in his backyard.

I'd go as far as to say the "waging war against the US economy" was just an side-effect, not something he seriously considered. I think it is more important to them that the fact that the attack worked better than they thought it would proves that God loves them.

:barf:

JohnBT
May 29, 2005, 12:02 PM
"he is the luckest SOB that ever walked the face of this Earth."

Other than, say, Christina Onassis.

"Bin Laden is the son of the Yemeni-born owner of a leading Saudi construction company. Born into great wealth, he is believed to have inherited as much as $300 million when his father died in the 1960's."
________

Mandela and Mother Teresa = 2 Nobel Peace Prizes.
OBL = still on the run

Fletchette
May 30, 2005, 01:48 AM
Interesting responses.

The reason I asked is that I think we, as a nation, are dangerously close to underestimating our enemy. By thinking of Al Quaeda as simply a bunch of savages who hide in caves, we apply tactics to combat savages. Thusfar, our strategy remains ineffective. Osama is still free.

It is very tempting to insult the enemy, especially after a vicious attack. However, if they were so stupid, they would not have been successful.

It is my opinion that, if we want to truly win this war with Islamofacism, we will have to be very calculated and stike at their weaknesses. Right now, we are winning tactically but losing strategically. It will do us no good to kill a thousand of them every day if they increase their ranks, through converts and birthrates, by 2000 per day.

Rebar
May 30, 2005, 02:14 AM
We are winning strategically. We're using the weapon called "democracy", a weapon the islamofacists hate and fear. And it's taking off in the Middle East, Afganistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, heck last week or so, Kuwait decided to let women vote! Free elections, women voting, a real representaive government, these things makes bin Laden wet his diapers.

Why? Because as democracy brings these 13th century tribal societies into the modern age, his brand of islam loses a lot of its appeal. And instread of blaming the west and America for all it's problems, they'll be able to actually do something about it.

Sean Smith
May 30, 2005, 08:10 AM
It is very tempting to insult the enemy, especially after a vicious attack.

It is also tempting to inflate an enemy who made you look stupid.

Byron Quick
May 30, 2005, 10:23 AM
I'm not very impressed with him.

What is victory in war? Victory in war is obtaining the objectives for which you initiated the war. You can win every battle and if you fail to obtain your objectives and the enemy does obtain their objectives...guess what?

Personally, I fear that history will remember OBL as the initial spark on the powder trail that led to the genocide of the Muslims. Many of the moderate Muslims seem to think that they can ignore the Islamists and play both ends against the middle.

I don't necessarily think it will be the US that initiates the genocide. I think that the Islamists will hit France hard sooner or later. If they hit Paris as hard as they hit New York...I think that France will find some Muslims to nuke.

If more Muslims don't realize that there is a fundamental force disparity between their countries and the West...OBL is likely to be Islam's worst enemy in the final analysis.

Rebar
May 30, 2005, 10:58 AM
I don't know about "genocide", but there very well could be another war of religions in Europe. Europe has a very large muslem minority, and they haven't done much integrating within their hosts. In fact, one (I think Holland) is actually considering expelling all their muslems. Let another Madrid train bombing or Beslan happen in France or Germany, and things will get very ugly very fast.

2nd Amendment
May 30, 2005, 12:41 PM
OBL is simply a rich SOB, nothing more. But he does have a methodology which will work against the US in the current political state of this country. Take a bunch of Statists and put them in offices at all levels. Add a bunch of extremist idiots willing to kill themselves to affect change as they want it and Presto, we get a totalitarian state.

All for our own good, you know.

The best way to destroy Israel is to turn the US in upon itself. The best way to generate "good will" among his fellow travelers is to damage the very things that make the US great, freedom and decency. On these points OBL and his cronies have thus far been reasonably effective, though at great cost to their own structure. OTOH any kind of agenda such as his is a tightrope walk which can go either way.

So could have we. Imagine if Gore had been in office on 9/11. Now, even better, imagine Hillary, Schumer et al in charge when the next 9/11 occurs. OBL is no genius but he may yet prove to be very effective.

Fletchette
May 30, 2005, 01:25 PM
So could have we. Imagine if Gore had been in office on 9/11. Now, even better, imagine Hillary, Schumer et al in charge when the next 9/11 occurs. OBL is no genius but he may yet prove to be very effective.

Indeed. I have had this conversation many times. If Gore had been President, we would most likely be having some sort of limited civil war right now (bombings, etc.) I firmly believe if the extreme left were in charge on 9/11 they would have seized the opportunity to ban private possession of firearms, leading to chaos.

Fletchette
May 30, 2005, 01:33 PM
Long, but I will post it anyways. Note how his complaints (not respecting individuals, restricted access to weapons for self-defense) is much like ours...

Why Do Americans Hate Muslims?
Reem Al-Faisal, Arab News



A few weeks ago an American I met at a friends house asked a much repeated query, “Why do you the Muslims hate the Americans?” To which I answered in the same way as all the preceding instances in which this question was posed to me: “We don’t hate the Americans, we might disagree with a certain US policy and dislike recent American actions in the Muslim world but we surely don’t hate the American people.”

The American who interrogated me was clearly not convinced with my answer and secretly I wasn’t either. The truth is that at present the Muslims hate America and now, they hate not only its policymakers but most of the American people since they have proven recently without a shadow of doubt that they agree with their elite by voting back into office, by a comfortable majority, the Bush administration inspite of it’s obvious record of lies and abuse of power. The Americans can never claim from now on that they didn’t know that there where no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They can’t claim that they didn’t know torture wasn’t widespread in American prisons, from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib, and the thousands of other secret detention centers. They surely can’t claim not to know of this entire episode in which thousands have lost their lives and much more have seen their homes and lands destroyed as a result of the American military and its leaders who don’t hesitate in using the massive destructive power of the US on defenseless civilians.

My American friend was right, we do hate them now, but he never asked himself the question “Why?” Why should a people living on the other side of the planet feel any sort of emotion toward the Americans, be it hate or love? Does anyone ever ask if the Muslims hate the Chileans or love the Chinese or dislike the Uruguayans? No, we are forever asked to express some sort of intense emotion toward the Americans. So, I have to admit finally, after decades of relations with the US, that they have convinced us that we should feel something and that our feelings have been boiled down today to pure hate. And why not? What have we as a people seen from the US in the past half century but an absence of respect for Muslim life, culture or religion, contempt and disregard for our rights and finally murder and torture from Afghanistan to Iraq.

The US has further driven us to dislike America with its blind support for a colonialist power such as Israel, in fact the only one left in the region. Whenever we have tried in the past to help alleviate the plight of the Palestinians we only got vetoed by the US at the UN Security Council followed by the free flow of arms and money to kill our fellow compatriots from Palestine to Lebanon. And whenever we Arabs try to get arms to defend ourselves against one of the strongest armies in the world, which has never hesitated in using its destructive power with impunity against us, we are blocked by America from acquiring the means by which we could defend ourselves.

We have watched America attack us, destroy us, impose embargoes against our nations and then conquer our lands, imprison our people and generally deal with us as though we are savage animals whereby every single law be it international or even American is totally disregarded when it concerns the rights of Arab and Muslim individuals. Then they ask us why we hate them? Tell me why do you hate us? What terrible crime have the Muslims committed against you in the past to deserve your interminable enmity? What have we done to see you rampage through our lands destroying and killing, then claiming obscenely that it was worth it for the sake of liberty and democracy?

Is it worth it for the million and a half Iraqis murdered in the embargo or the thousands of Afghans killed by your ever so “smart” bombs? Or should we ask the Iraqis of today, whom you’ve killed by the thousands? Was all this death and destruction worth it for them? Did you ever bother to ask their opinion before you played God with the lives and destinies of this nation?

Finally, you take aim at our religion by humiliating our beliefs. You abuse our book, use our convictions to torture us and degrade us, disregarding your own laws and religion which is as noble as ours and to which torture and humiliation is anathema.

What were you thinking when you threw the Qur’an in the toilet or when you used religion as a means of torture? I fail to see the efficacy of such actions in the so-called war on terror. These methods only point to a deep sickness in your society to which it will take decades for us and the rest of the world to understand its cause and to measure its destructive results. No, the question which someday will have to be answered is why, why do you the Americans hate us the Muslims so much?

— Reem Al-Faisal is a Saudi photographer and writer based in Jeddah

Waitone
May 30, 2005, 02:17 PM
The writer has the emotional maturity of a 6th grader.

Sean Smith
May 30, 2005, 03:25 PM
I love how the mere existence of Israel excuses ANY behavior on the part of Arabs. Sorry, you morons, you were greedy exterminationist anti-semites in 1948, and the Jews kicked your asses. Get over it, the fact that you are losers is largely your own damn fault.

You= the author and his ilk.

Fletchette
May 30, 2005, 06:48 PM
I tend to disagree with the author myself. However, the point I was trying to make was that if we are going to win the war politically (since I doubt that we, as a nation, are willing to win a war militarily the old fashioned way - by killing everyone) then we will have to present a political arguement that counters the one in the article. "Get over it, the fact that you are losers is largely your own damn fault" is most likely not that arguement.

2nd Amendment
May 30, 2005, 07:02 PM
"That" argument doesn't exist. Because all those excuses the author posted are just that, excuses. You can't argue against them because they are not logical and do not exist as any real justification. They are a cover for the truth: The Arab nations hate the Jews. The Arab nations hate us because we support the Jews AND because we are very successful even in diametric opposition to their religion, such as it is.

The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.

Barbara
May 30, 2005, 07:34 PM
OT and not addressed to anyone in particular: Arabs are Semitic people.

dodging230grainers
May 30, 2005, 07:48 PM
The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.

I doubt the hate will end when Israel ends- one of their biggest goals is to destoy western democracy. Destroying Israel will not accomplish that. Not that they could destroy Israel anyway, at least without nukes.
If the rest of the world and the U.N. would stop breathing down Israel's neck about everything they do, I can see Israel as a great future ally against middle eastern islamofacism.

Arc-Lite
May 30, 2005, 07:54 PM
to me, it makes zero difference what Osama is..or what he stands for, anyone who comes to this country or sends someone into this country to kill our people, is my enemy. I do not care about his beliefs, what god he supports.. the color of his skin... or his past , present, or future plans.... I am indifferent to his cause or if he is rich or poor....you kill my people... and we WILL come for you. to be a good fighter, you must be able to take a punch...he got in a good punch...but a punch is not the fight. all the theroy in the world...has nothing to do with this war... action is what decides issues.. how would your father, or grandfather dealt with this.... with resolve. Memorial day...a day to remember the fallen.... lets learn from our mistakes....and get this task done.

joab
May 30, 2005, 07:57 PM
OT and not addressed to anyone in particular: Arabs are Semitic people
Se·mit·ic (sə-mĭt'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.

Well I'll be damned, learn something new everyday, when you want to

Barbara
May 30, 2005, 08:20 PM
My father's family is also Semitic, and they've been Christian since the first century. ;)

Sean Smith
May 30, 2005, 08:35 PM
OT and not addressed to anyone in particular: Arabs are Semitic people.

Um, OK. True but completely irrelevant. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews (not, in common usage, Semites in general — see the Scope section below).

Or, as Webster puts it:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=anti-semitism

Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

Any other pedantic points to get out of the way while we're at it? :neener:

Barbara
May 30, 2005, 08:40 PM
:neener:

Being Semitic, and yet, not Jewish, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine, pedantic or not.

Sean Smith
May 30, 2005, 09:00 PM
Being Semitic, and yet, not Jewish, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine, pedantic or not.

Then go complain to Webster and leave me out of it. :D

LawDog
May 30, 2005, 11:27 PM
The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.

No, it won't. Israel is a convenient excuse and good for 30-second sound bits and one-liners to keep the illiterati frothing at the mouth.

The fanatics who are blowing things up hate America because we are the Great Corrupter. We are the snake in their Eden.

And, in a way this is true: America remakes the world in her own image by way of Hollywood and the Internet.

And there is nothing in that image which is compatible with fanatical fundamentalist Muslims.

They teach their children unquestioning obedience to God. We give them Bruce Almighty. On DVD. With special effects.

The religious fanatics teach their daughters that they have no souls, and maybe get to heaven riding on the coattails of their husbands. Then we haul off and play Thelma and Louise; Steel Magnolias; and Fried Green Tomatos on 24-hour Satellite TeeVee and we add sub-titles at no cost.

We are destroying their culture. Period. We're putting a Mickey Dee's on every corner, Baywatch on every TV, and a Victoria's Secret in every mailbox.

Losing your worldview is a rough thing, even if you're not a fanatic. People have gone to war, killed and committed atrocities for far less.

LawDog

Art Eatman
May 30, 2005, 11:58 PM
Again, I recommend Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong? -- Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response."

Lewis is a Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University.

Well written and not lengthy. Gives a pretty good background as to the inherent cultural aspects which lead to problems in interactions with the West.

Art

Fletchette
May 31, 2005, 12:33 AM
So, just how are we supposed to win? I do not think that DVDs and Victoria Secret catalogs will be successful...

My position is, unless we are willing to drop a few nukes and send in helicopter gunships to shoot everything that moves, they will continue to reproduce at a rate that exceeds our kill rate. This is a recipe for perpetual war.

I am of the opinion that it would be to our benefit to seek to understand the enemy in order to effectively combat them. Simply calling them savages and saying, "I don't care what they think" is not being a very good strategist.

If you think that the Muslim world are going to be hostile while Israel exists (and beyond) how do we change this. Again, what is the alternative to genocide?

Arc-Lite
May 31, 2005, 12:37 AM
one imporant thing I learned when there..if two of them are trying to kill each other, and you try to stop them, they both will kill you, for their right, to kill each other....there is a lesson there.

LawDog
May 31, 2005, 08:42 AM
Ah, but the DVD's and catalogs are successful -- that's why we're having the problems.

How do we win? We kill as many of the fanatics as possible, we help as many of the moderates as possible, and we let Nature take its course.

Understand, any fanatical fundamentalist religion only remains powerful as long as it keeps its followers in the dark about everything else.

These heady days of the Infobahn are making that very difficult, if not outright impossible.

It's not going to happen over-night. If we're lucky, it'll take a generation. More probably it'll take two generations, but it's inevitable.

Yes, inevitable. Islam is going to change. The only choice that they, or we, have in the matter is whether the fighting that will accompany such change happens on their dirt, or ours.

LawDog

Mr. X
May 31, 2005, 12:19 PM
al-Zawahiri is the reputed brains of al-Qaida, rather than bin Laden, who's not stupid, but still has more money than brains.

2nd Amendment
May 31, 2005, 12:56 PM
No, it won't. Israel is a convenient excuse and good for 30-second sound bits and one-liners to keep the illiterati frothing at the mouth.

and...

I doubt the hate will end when Israel ends- one of their biggest goals is to destoy western democracy.

I'm kind of dissappointed that this flew right by folks: The Arab nations hate us because we support the Jews AND because we are very successful even in diametric opposition to their religion, such as it is.

My point being consistent among both my paragraphs: The state of Israel and Western culture being inextricably linked at this point and the downfall of one being the downfall of the other to one degree at some point. I suppose I could have made it more clear but it seemed obvious to me when I wrote it... *shrug*

GEM
May 31, 2005, 05:33 PM
Genius is a technical definition. Go give him the WAIS and tell me his IQ. He was trained as an engineer and doesn't seem stupid but I doubt that he is technically a genius. Might be - but so what.

Rommel was defending his country in France and North Africa. How dat happen? Must have gotten lost.

Art was correct that Lewis' book is a great read.

Bacon
May 31, 2005, 07:32 PM
Okay, Rommel was SERVING his country. You folks that bring this up totally miss what I was replying to. The guy claimed Rommel was a Nazi. Which is Wrong Information. Why didn't you address that? You pick away at one word and completely miss what the post was about.

Reminds me of the saying "Can't see the forrest because of one tree."

joab
May 31, 2005, 07:38 PM
You pick away at one word and completely miss what the post was about. Welcome to L&P

dodging230grainers
May 31, 2005, 07:41 PM
Any man who helped, not necessarily supported Hitler's cause is a Nazi to me.

Fletchette
May 31, 2005, 08:18 PM
Okay, Rommel was SERVING his country. You folks that bring this up totally miss what I was replying to. The guy claimed Rommel was a Nazi. Which is Wrong Information. Why didn't you address that? You pick away at one word and completely miss what the post was about.

RommelPortrait

Oh, NOW I see...he isn't a Nazi!

:rolleyes:

With that logic, Osama bin Laden isn't "really an Islamofacist, he's just SERVING his religion"

:barf:

Bacon
May 31, 2005, 08:26 PM
Wow, apparently I have to spell it out. A Nazi is/was a member of the Nazi Party. Rommel was not a member of the Nazi Party.

However he was an outstanding general. If you can't respect your enemies, then it belittles the accomplishments of your allies.

LawDog
May 31, 2005, 08:45 PM
Closed due to thread veer.

LawDog

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