[Apple a Day]

I was sitting around the other day and had an idea:
What if someone designed a revolver with ejectable cylinders?!
The biggest 2 gripes about revolvers that I hear from people who prefer self-loaders is 1)small capacity 2)harder to reload

So, what if someone invented a revolver [7 or 8 shot]where the cylinder would completely eject rather than swing out to reload? Pop out the old cylinder and pop in a new one. I have seen older models of revolvers with mechanisms to replace the cylinder but they were black powder handguns and the process wasn't exactly quick. Has anyone ever invented a more modern version?

I was thinking that the big problem would be the weight of the cylinders. However, this can be reduced by using some sort of titanium alloy. Perhaps cut weight a little more by having metal 'sleeves' around the chambers to bear the load but fill the rest of the area with polymer as material strength allows.
Would any of the 1911 and Glock crowds be intrigued by such a beasty? Revolver experts explain to me why this can't be done.

[Nick96]

Ever seen Clint Eastwood's movie "Pale Rider"? That's exactly what he did with his Remington revolver. Many of those were converted to fire centerfire cartridges. So there you go. Get a converted 1858 Remington revolver.

[Blackhawk]

Every cylinder has to be precisely mated to the frame in a revolver. The result of your idea may not be as satisfactory as you might think.

[Handy]

Well, how about a revolver design that doesn't require hand fitting? If you can make a drop in Glock barrel, why should a revolver cylinder system that's drop in be such a techincal difficulty?

I think this is a really good idea. Make the cylinder of six chamber pieces, welded to a center hub, for weight. Don't bother with an ejector. Instead of a little hook, use a star shaped wheel on the back frame opening to turn and align the cases with the bore directly.

This system would be lighter, cheaper to make and more robust internally (fewer timing issue). Changing from .357 to 9mm would involve nothing more than a cheap cylinder swap.

Cylinder ejection by retracting the front and rear pivots with one lever. Use cone shaped pivots and guide channels on the cylinder ends for pop-in loading.

If you can make the cylinders to sell at $30 or less they compete with quality auto magazines.

[CWL]

Revolver cylinders take a lot of machining work, a good part of the cost in revolvers comes from making & fitting cylinder to frame. No chance of a $30 cylinder.

Fast reloaders are why semiautos were invented.

If you spend time practicing with speedloaders/half-moon clips and speed strips, you can reload as fast as/faster than the regular guy and a semi/magazine gun.

I've seen a guy at our IDPA meets who is amazing with his revolverwork on the range. You'd swear that his shooting was from a hi-cap semiauto instead of a 'wheelie'.

[Standing Wolf]

I'm sure it could be done; I'm equally sure the revolver manufacturers would rather sell more revolvers than cylinders.

[Jim K]

Switching cylinders has been around since at least the Civil War. The latest version was a revolver made for use by sky marshals. Due to the nature of the ammo used, the cylinder was pre loaded at the factory with non-removable cartridges. If a reload was needed, the whole cylinder was replaced.

But, as others have said, it isn't very practical for general use and a speed loader is as fast or faster.

Jim

[ajacobs]

Switching cylinders has been around since at least the Civil War. The latest version was a revolver made for use by sky marshals. Due to the nature of the ammo used, the cylinder was pre loaded at the factory with non-removable cartridges. If a reload was needed, the whole cylinder was replaced.

You may have this confused with a gun made by hk for underwater use. Of course I could be completely wrong and there could be two different guns.

http://hkpro.com/peleven.htm

[Navy joe]

You need to watch someone good reload with moon clips. Then your search will be over. Some faster than I can change a mag.

[Croyance]

IIRC titianium alloys are relatively brittle, making it bad for a cylinder, which must constain the peak pressure of a cartridge. This is also why titanium revolvers have steel barrel liners and cylinders.
The big thing in machining a cylinder is getting the timings precise. If it is off by a couple degrees very bad things will happen.
Moon clips have existed since WWI.

[Handy]

CWL,

I was talking about the simplified cylinder that is not "timed" to the pistol. You could make what I described for not too much.

Croyance,

Ti cylinders are common. The only revolver parts not made from Ti are springs and bore.


All this harumphing about cylinder timing is silly. You're going to need a different basic revolver for this to be practical, so use a different timing system. I doubt a Nagent, for instance, has any timing problems. The new gun doesn't have to be a gas seal system, but there are other ways of ensuring alignment with the bore.

[ahadams]

hey apple - nick 96 is exactly right - you just reinvented the Civil War era gunfighters (and irregular cavalry) solution to rapid reloads. Remember the James gang came from 'round here (actually robbed a train up at the top if the hill just outside of town). Now all you have to do is carry at least 4 or 5 revolvers to be completely historically accurate. :)

[Pendragon]

I would say the problem is, you would create a gun with the disadvantages of a revolver (mostly capacity) and add on the disadvantages of an automatic - propensity towards jamming, the need to carry magazines of some sort, etc.

The larger problem is one that affects all guns:

It is simply not possible to make complex mechanical parts that are all identical.

Machines and machine tools experience wear and can go slightly out of adjustment resulting in parts that are a thousandth off here and there. That does not sound like much, but if every part varies by that amount, the cumulative variance can result in a very inconsistent product.

This is why the most accurate guns are hand fitted - everything is lapped and fitted to a level of precision that is not possible (at least at the dollar levels we would expect) with machinery.

making a "drop fit" barrel for a Glock is nothing like making a drop fit cylinder for a revolver. There is nothing to do with the barrel that requires the same level of precision.

Even in a high quality revolver, there are variances not only between samples of the same model, but between individual cylinders on the same gun.

Now - if you did manage to make a gun like you described, it would require a person to carry around cylinders (or "stars as you have described") This seems to me to be less convenient than a magazine due to the shape and the inevitable bulge.

Additionally - I had a Ruger Super Six that had 2 cylinders and even putting aside the process of removing the main pin, just getting the cylinders to go in square and getting everything to line up was not exactly quick.

One often over looked advantage of the revolver is the fact that it is a 1 piece gun - you do not need a seperate accessory to make it useful. By making the cylinder removeable, you take this aspect away as well.

I would suggest looking for the video of - I am sure someone knows the guys name - Mucelik or something - he shoots a full cylinder, does a reload in a second or two and then empties the cylinder again - I think both cylinders are on target in under 3 seconds total.

If you use a big bore gun like a 625, and use round nose bullets, they should go in real easy - with practice of course. :)

Again - extremely fast reloads are possible with practice, but of course, a lot of people (not saying you) do not like to practice. I imagine gadgetry and innovation can mitigate a small amount of this, but ultimately, when you are under stress, if you do not have muscle memory, you are going to be fumbling - which makes me wonder what is going to keep someone from trying to load the cylinder backwards under stress - there is no obvious "front" to a cylinder like there is for some magazines.

Interesting idea though - I often wonder what can be done with the revolver idea - I like the Mateba for the low bore axis and the uniqueness - I would seriously consider buying one some day...

[Apple a Day]

Thanks for the responses.
I ain't talkin' about no civil war revolvers that take a while to unlimber and change. I am thinking about something you can switch out very much like the mag on a self-loader. Yes, I've seen experts speedload so fast they made a sonic boom. Those of us who are gun nuts may aspire to such efficiency but the average joe doesn't spend that much time practicing.
My originial thought came from a combination of the "why have designs stagnated", "what pistol for a beginner", and "what do/should LEOs carry" threads. I pondered how marketable a revolver with quick-change cylinders would be for the LEO and new shooter market (not a bust on LEOs). A pistol that could switch almost instantly from 9mm to .38/.357 would be a great first pistol.
I suppose I will continue to ponder the imponderables. :evil:

[caz223]

Ruger single actions are like that now.
The uber-old pistols of the west were like that.
I have heard horror stories of people dropping a loaded cylinder on a rock, one of the cartridges ignite, and you now have a hole in your crotch that goes up all the way to your neck.

[curt]

I think its a great idea that can only be validated with a prototype.

Timing problems can probably be solved with a different design and maybe be more reliable. Cylinders are slight larger that a speedloader or full moon clips but not a huge difference. Cost might be an issue as would durability from being dropped but once again a prototype is needed.

Yeah shooters like jerry miculek can do amazing things but no one here is even in his league (i'm guessing but i figure its a safe bet). It seems that your design might help out the non-superlative shooter more than a champion.

[Correia]

Moon clips vs. removable cylinder.

Advantages:

Size: Moon clip (smaller and a lot lighter)
Cost: Moon clip (stamped piece of sheet metal vs. machined chunk of steel)
Speed: Moon clip (open gun, hit ejector, drop in new clip)
Manufacturing: Moon clip (see Cost)
R&D: Moon clip (been around most of the century)

:)

I see no advantage for the removable cylinder to justify the extra cost.

As for master class shooters being faster with moon clips, but the removable cylinder being faster for the rest of us, how? Either way you are going to have to open the gun, drop out the old cartridge holder, and drop in a new cartridge holder.

[Blueduck]

Believe the German Korth revolver is pretty much along what your looking for. Has a button right handy to relase the cylinder, and I recall reading some european shooters did just what your talking about using fitted extra cylinders for speed reloading. Of course a Korth and brace of fitted cylinders likely to cost you $15,000 or so ;)

[MrAcheson]

Check out the modified Ruger Vacquero shown here:

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/gallery.html

Its based on an obscure design by R.F. Sedgley.

[Quartus]

Apple, you now have everything you need to become a succesful inventor:


[list=1]
An idea.

A bunch of people giving you good reasons why it cannot be done.
[/list=1]

:D


Now shut up jawin' about it and go make it happen!


Remember me when you are rich?

[curt]

Apple, you now have everything you need to become a succesful inventor:

LOL! Excellant definition Quartus.

[Jim K]

Hi, ajacobs,

No, I am not confused about an underwater gun. Someplace I have pics of the sky marshal revolver made by Colt, which worked just as I said. There is no ejector rod and no way to remove the cartridges. Nor will the cylinder interchange with any other revolver cylinder. The bullets were highly fatal at short range but blew up on aircraft skin. They did all this to keep some marshal from loading "real" ammo and taking out a critical system, like the pilot, if he missed the bad guy. I have been told by aircraft engineers that the concern is vastly over rated, but that is neither here nor there.

By the way, with modern production, swapping cylinders is very feasible even without hand fitting. I have swapped S&W cylinders around among Model 19's and they mostly fitted and worked with no problems. I don't recommend it, but I won't hesitate to do it either.

Jim

[Johnny Guest]

Oh, ye of little faith! Poor, beknighted unbelievers, who would impugn one of our resident "Founts of Wisdom Concerning All Things Wheelgunnerly."

Gurhu and master, Jim Keenan would not steer you wrong. I am sure he is too aloof from such worldy matters to deign to offer documentation to crassly PROVE his statement. I, however, as a mere accolyte of the
Exalted Order of the Majestic Sidearms of the Rotating Magazine,
shall, in the spirit of The Sharing of Corporeal Knowledge, submit the following:

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/fam-lawman/gz-fam.html

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/fam-lawman/gz-aircrew.html

Read and be humbled!





;)
Johnny

[caz223]

I think our confused friend was thinking about a H&K revolver designed to be fired underwater.
It was of similar construction as the colt.