Advice: Denied purchase of shotgun.


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ScopedOut
May 29, 2005, 03:38 PM
I have done quite a bit of reading and searching various sites (including this one), and I have come up with an interpretation of the law.

I am in North Carolina. They do not allow out-of-state/nonresidents to buy a handgun. They do allow nonresident purchases of long guns. I want to purchase a used remington 870 police model recently turned in by the South Carolina Highway Patrol. By the way, it's a beautiful gun with a walnut foreend and stock - maybe a box of shells through it and some time in a cruiser.

I am also a graduate student originally from and a legal resident of Oklahoma. I will be returning to Oklahoma for the summer in a week's time.

As I see it, the ATF says that while I reside in North Carolina for school, I am a resident. When I return to Oklahoma, I am a resident there. The problem is where North Carolina still defines me as a Non-resident.

So I went to purchase the shotgun from an FFL, who allowed me to claim Oklahoma as my legal residence. But on the transfer form, I asked whether I should use my current residence in North Carolina, or my permanent residence in Oklahoma. He stopped and said "that's a dealbreaker." In other words, he sees me as a resident of North Carolina - due to the fact that I have been renting an off-campus apartment for nearly 9 months now. So I would need to get a driver's license or ID confirming me as a resident of North Carolina to go through with the purchase.

At this point it would be stupid for me to go through all the insurance, registration, and licensing to change my state of residence over a $200 gun - especially when I may only reside in North Carolina for 3 more years. My status as a resident of Oklahoma is perfectly legal as it stands now. There is no good reason to change it.

So my options for getting that shotgun (which I put on layaway) are either:
1. Transfer the gun FFL-to-FFL back to Oklahoma and make the transfer to me there.
2. Hope that the FFL agrees with my interpretation of the law.

Sorry this is so long, but it's complicated....

My interpretation:

North Carolina has designated me a Non-resident. I am temporarily there for education, and when my schooling is complete, I will return to Oklahoma. From that standpoint, I am not prohibited from purchasing a long gun in North Carolina. I should be able to present my Oklahoma ID and make a purchase.

The BATF has designated me a resident of North Carolina while I reside in North Carolina. They require that I show proof of my residence with a document showing my name, my signature, my DOB, SSN, and place of residence. That would be a North Carolina DL. However, they also say that any combination of documents with my name and a piece of that information, which together gives the name, sig, DOB, SSN, etc. works as well. So from that standpoint, my Oklahoma DL plus my rent bills, or my checkbook, my bank statements... should work. Do you agree?

As I see it, I can be a nonresident in the eyes of the North Carolina law, and a resident in the eyes of the BATF. I interpret this as being legal. I can be both, as long as my status to North Carolina is legal for the purchase of a long gun, and my status to the BATF satisfies the BATF laws.

I can demonstrate my residence in Oklahoma (and perhaps show my enrollment in school. is that necessary?) with my Oklahoma DL. I satisfy the North Carolina law.

I can demonstrate my residence in North Carolina to the BATF with my Oklahoma DL/ID in conjunction with something showing my residence in North Carolina for 90 days or more.

The FFL just has to be very familiar with the laws, or I will have a hell of a time convincing them of this. So, does my reasoning make sense?

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MechAg94
May 29, 2005, 04:35 PM
In Texas, you are supposed to update your license with a new residence within 30 days. If you are going to be there for 3 more years, why not go ahead and get a new license etc. That is a long time to wait. Is your license good for 3 more years? I think that is just the breaks with this instant check system. I guess if I were looking at 3 years, I might go ahead and get the new license.

What are the rules for traffic ticket for out of state residents over there?

I don't know about the law but the insurance company would probably like to know what area you are living in, but that is between you and them. I have NEVER done that before. :rolleyes:

GaryP
May 29, 2005, 04:42 PM
Why make it more complicated than it needs to be if Your
1. Transfer the gun FFL-to-FFL back to Oklahoma and make the transfer to me there.

is an option, go for it. If you persist on being right that Shotgun will most likely never be yours because the bureaucrats will prolong everything and in the mean time someone else will get the shotgun.

Bottom Line: Do you want the shotgun or do you have a personal need to be RIGHT? It is your choice in the end! Keep in mind Reasoning is not something Bureaucrats are good at!


:evil:

thorn726
May 29, 2005, 04:43 PM
it isnt jsut TExas= it is every state i've ever lived in (five of them)

you are supposed to get your liscense changed by 30 days- probably everywhere in the US=
the stupid thing- an id doesnt always qualify you as a resident.
i know at least in terms of college, you got to live there a year for residency, such as lower rates for residents. no idea how that plays out for guns, but i see how the OK id could present a problem.

the govt sees it this way= you moved for a long period of time without telling THem, it makes them nervous.

so really you have to accpet that although i hear you, your actual resicdence in in OK, as far as ID is concerned, ewspecially if yer gonna be in NC for 3 more years, you might need to consider NC id

jefnvk
May 29, 2005, 05:05 PM
I thought it was legal to buy a longgun out of state, as long as it went throught an FFL?

I'll go check the ATF website.

Here it is:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]


A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

Dog
May 29, 2005, 05:26 PM
Get a state ID not a drivers liscense but an ID. In Oklahoma they cost about 10 dollars. I am sure NC probably has the same thing.

Kamicosmos
May 29, 2005, 05:32 PM
1. Transfer the gun FFL-to-FFL back to Oklahoma and make the transfer to me there.

Specially if you're going to be there in a couple weeks. Just make it easy.

Also, I think the 'out of state' buying a long gun is only in ADJOINING states, but I'm not 100% on this though.

Sergeant Sabre
May 29, 2005, 05:45 PM
The address written in box #2 of the 4473 must match the buyer's legal address that is printed on the driver's license. The state of residence must match the driver's license. The dealer must abide by all of thier local and state laws, as well as all of the local and state laws that apply to the buyer in his/her state of residence.

So there should be no problem.

RoyG
May 29, 2005, 07:05 PM
You can get a NC id card for 10 bucks at the DMV.

Obtaining a North Carolina Identification Card (http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/other_services/general/pictureID.html)

Also go to WalMart. Most of them have a chart in one of the gun cases showing which states you can buy a gun from when you are a nonresident.

Call the local BATF office and asked them.

ScopedOut
May 29, 2005, 08:23 PM
You can get a NC id card for 10 bucks at the DMV.

Does this mean I have legally changed my state of residence though? It seems to me that if I solidify my residence with an ID from NC I will be giving up my Oklahoma status.

hmmm...

RoyG
May 29, 2005, 09:16 PM
Non-Residents (http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/driver_services/drivershandbook/chapter1/nonResidents.html)

Out-of-state college students who intend to return to their home states upon completion of their educations in North Carolina.

ScopedOut
May 29, 2005, 09:25 PM
Ironically, that is opposite of what the ATF says:

27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21
"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the
State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The
regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to out -of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an of -campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off -campus home is located. During the time out -of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
[ATFB 1980 -4 25]

ScopedOut
May 29, 2005, 09:27 PM
And this is why I don't need an NC driver license


27 CFR 178.124: FIREARMS
TRANSACTION RECORD
Means of identification furnished by a nonlicensee purchasing a firearm.

ATF Rul. 79-7
The law places upon the licensee the responsibility for establishing the identity, place of residence, and age of an unlicensed person before selling or delivering a firearm to such person.
Under 27 CFR 178.124, a nonlicensee's eligibility to purchase a firearm
is established through the use of Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record). The regulation provides that before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the form must be completed showing the purchaser's name, address, date of birth, and other pertinent information. Further, the regulation and form require the purchaser to identify himself in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license) and the licensee must indicate the manner in which the purchaser was identified. (See, also, 178.125a, personal firearms collection sale by a licensee.) Satisfactory identification of a firearms purchaser must identify the purchaser's name, age or date of birth, place of residence, and signature. A driver's license or identification card issued by a State in lieu of a driver's license is particularly appropriate. Social Security cards, alien registration receipt cards, and military identification cards are not, in and of themselves, acceptable to identify potential firearms purchasers. The Social Security card is unsatisfactory because no address or date of birth is shown. While the alien registration card and military identification show name, age or date of birth, as well as other identifying information, the State of residence is not shown. While a particular document may not be sufficient to meet the statutory requirement for identifying the purchaser, any combination of documents which together disclose the required information concerning the purchaser is acceptable.

[ATFQB 1979 -1 26] [Amended]
Editorís Note
ATF Rul. 79-7 was modified by T.D. ATF-389, 62 FR 19442, April 21, 1997, to require additional information on Form 4473. Under the new regulations, the form also requires the purchaser to state whether he or she is a citizen of the United States and to affirmatively provide his or her State of residence. In the case of a purchaser who is an alien legally in the United States, the regulations also require the purchaser to provide proof of residency through the use of substantiating documentation showing that the purchaser has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm. In addition, the licensee must verify the identity of the alien by examining a government issued photo identification document. It should also be noted that Public Law 105-277, enacted on October 21, 1998, makes it unlawful, with certain exceptions, to transfer firearms to aliens admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa and for such aliens to possess firearms.

Harlie
May 29, 2005, 10:26 PM
Missed a possible, easy solution. Get a NC ID card, good for check cashing, etc and listing your NC address. Nothing says your only acceptable photo ID has to be a DL. NC ID is perfectly legal and accepted as such, obtained at license bur' in most states and costs around $10-15. And doesn't require surrender of DL. 30 days in state DL are for permenant residence, which as a student, you are not.

Fly320s
May 29, 2005, 10:37 PM
ScopedOut,

I think you are correct in your assessment that you are legally able to buy that shotgun from the dealer and take possession at that store. No need to transfer to OK.

I think that the problem lies with your communication with the dealer. You asked the dealer "whether I should use my current residence in North Carolina, or my permanent residence in Oklahoma." I'm guessing the dealer took that as a red flag and decided not to sell you the gun. If you had just written your OK address, you'd have that gun in your hands now, right?

Maybe if you talk to the dealer, if you haven't already, and tell him that you are just trying to stay legal (and explain why you asked that question), he will sell you the gun.

If the dealer still won't sell, I'd suggest finding another shotgun to buy. I haven't priced a Rem. 870 recently, how much is a new one?

Fly320s
May 29, 2005, 10:47 PM
ScopedOut,

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State
Is the word "may" interpreted as you have the option to decide which state to declare residency? I think it is, but the BATFE interpretation (or more importantly the gun store's) is what matters.

I had no trouble buying a rifle from an FFL in Ohio while I was a resident of Texas. I picked out the rifle I wanted, asked the dealer if I was legal to buy it (just to be certain), filled-out the 4473 using my Texas DL as proof of ID, waited for the dealer to call in for the background check, and left with my rifle in hand. Total elapsed time of about 10 minutes.

DMF
May 29, 2005, 10:52 PM
The BATF has designated me a resident of . . . The ATF did NOT designate you a resident of anything. Whether or not you are a legal resident of NC is dependent on what the state of NC uses to determine residency. Most stated do NOT consider out-of-state college students residents unless they have done certain things to make themselves residents of that state. If you are not paying income tax in NC, in-state tuition at your college, registered to vote in NC, have your DL and car registration in NC, etc, then you are likely NOT a resident of NC.

Congress has however defined the rules for non-residents purchasing long guns in another state. Check this link:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2 (F2) May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of another state?

Generally, a firearm may not be lawfully sold by a licensed dealer to a nonlicensee who resides in a state other than the state in which the seller's licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser's state of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her state of residence. [b]In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the state where the licensee's business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with state law in the state where the licensee is located and in the state where the purchaser resides and provided the sale complies with all applicable federal laws. [18 U. S. C. 922( b)( 3)]

DMF
May 29, 2005, 10:55 PM
Does this mean I have legally changed my state of residence though? It seems to me that if I solidify my residence with an ID from NC I will be giving up my Oklahoma status. I'm not sure what the OK and NC state laws say, but generally you must be a resident of one state or another, not both. So yes, becoming a NC resident will likely require you give up your status as a resident of OK. See my post above about what is generally required for most states to consider you a resident.

cane
May 30, 2005, 10:20 AM
I am a NC resident and work in Alaska for 5 months out of the year. While working I drive a company vehicle so the insurance required me to have an AK DL. When I come back to NC in the winter, I use the AK DL as ID when I buy firearms. Never had a problem.

ScopedOut
May 30, 2005, 10:55 AM
I can't help but wonder what this guy was thinking when he said that my status somehow preculdes me from getting a long gun transferred. I will go tomorrow and figure out what the deal is.

jefnvk
May 30, 2005, 11:35 AM
If you got a Wal-Mart in ther area, try Royt's suggestion. That will let you know if there are any state laws that would prohibit the transfer. If not, printout that copy of the ATF FAQ I linked above, and show them that. Barring state laws, there should be nothing prohibiting you from using your OK residency on the yellow form.

Hawkmoon
May 30, 2005, 01:11 PM
Last I knew, students and soldiers were a special case. You are considered a resident of your home state even though you spend most of the year in the state where you attend school or are posted in the military. Through four years of college, four years of graduate school, and two years of active duty military my official home address was my parents house in my home state. I carried my home state drivers license, my car was registered and insured at that address, and my income tax return used the home address as my official address.

I believe the laws of most states include specific exemptions for students and military personnel. But you need to check the laws of the particular states involved.

That having been said ... you can't make it into a game, and claim to be a full-time resident of NC for 8 months out of the year, and then a full-time resident of OK for 4 months out of the year. If you want to be a NC resident, change your driver's license, notify the IRS to send your tax forms to NC, change the registration on your car to NC, and you'll be a NC resident.

You can't have it both ways.

ScopedOut
May 30, 2005, 05:03 PM
See - it's confusing.

I can't tell you how many people have told me that I am absolutely a resident of Oklahoma. There are an equal number saying that I should change my state of residence.

Unfortunately, the nature of the internet is that people tend to throw out speculation. For the sake of keeping it correct, I'll put up a ruling from the ATF again.

27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21
"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the
State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The
regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to out -of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an of -campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off -campus home is located. During the time out -of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
[ATFB 1980 -4 25]

It means that the ATF sees me as a student. Therefore, while I reside in NC, the address I put on the 4473 form is my NC address when purchasing the gun in NC. When I am in Oklahoma over the summer, I put my Oklahoma address on the 4473 when I want to purchase the gun in Oklahoma.

It has nothing to do with what I want or what I think about my residency. I could care less which state I am actually a resident of - permanent, whatever. Besides, it would be asinine for me to change my state of residence simply so I can purchase a shotgun. All the insurance changes. I am no longer a dependent if I leave the household of my parents for taxes (I am $40,000 in debt - which will grow to $200k before I even graduate). I need a new tag, new ID. It would end up costing more than the gun simply to get the gun.

So I was hoping someone had experience with this and could point me in the direction of the law/statute/ruling governing this situation. For those interested, CFR 27 138.11 of the ATF regulations is a great place to start. The rulings that accompany the regulations are invaluable for past interpretation.

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