[Snowdog]

First off let me apologize in advance, this thread poses a question even if it does possess the overtones of a rant.

While surfing the websites of various ammunition manufactures to broaden my knowledge of new products (which it seems I’m always the last to hear about), I stumbled upon the ballistics page at Winchester's website.

I was a bit confused and disappointed to find that Winchester's impressive velocities listed for their 7.62x25 was generated from an 11" test barrel (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=MC762TOK&cart=Ny42MngyNSBUb2thcmV2). Would it have been so terribly difficult for them to have used a barrel length that’s more in line with the firearms their consumers are likely using? For example, could they have used actual Makarov barrels instead of the 4.5” test barrels when testing velocities for their 9x18? :rolleyes:

Certainly they're aware of the firearms their metric product line is most likely to be purchased for. After all, it was the request campaign of the surplus handgun market that brought this “metric” line to life.
Perhaps I'm making more out of this than needs to be, but it simply reeks of deception.

Would anyone care to take a shot at explaining why a reputable company such as Winchester would use an 11" test barrel to achieve the velocity posted, when they're sure to know the vast majority of firearms that will ultimately use this fodder have barrels less than half that length? Perhaps there’s a very good reason that I’m missing.

At least they have the courtesy to publish the length of their test barrel. I wonder if using longer test barrels to obtain higher advertised velocities is common practice.

[The Drew]

7.62x25mm is not for a Makarov... It is first and foremost a subgun round, and that in reality, the 11inch test barrel is appropriate for that round.

That being said, consumers are most likely to have a handgun chambered in the round with a barrel of 5 or less inches. However if you've ever fired one, you'll know that these guns are very inefficient (meaning MAJOR muzzle blast :what: )

[Sean Smith]

Maybe they were thinking PPSh-41. Soviet subgun in 7.62x25, barrel length 10.6".

[Elmer]

7.62x25mm is not for a Makarov... It is first and foremost a subgun round, and that in reality, the 11inch test barrel is appropriate for that round.

I have to disagree with you on this one Drew. The Winchester website Snowdog linked to, is their consumer site, with the top title being "Centerfire Handgun".

Kinda misleading at the least.....

[The Drew]

Typically subguns use pistol cartridges, but develop higher velocities due to their longer barrels...

I suppose they would need to create a centerfire carbine/subgun section to be truly appropriate.

But short of that, pistol cartridge would still be appropriate...

I'm not defending winchester but it is a good point to always compare the test barrel to whatever barrel you plan on using, general rule is that the test barrel is "ideal" for the cartridge, and therefore gives the best ballistics...

[Elmer]

Most of the companies started using realistic length barrels for their charts years ago. Even "vented" test barrels for revolver cartridges. Probably just a mistake on their part.

[Snowdog]

7.62x25mm is not for a Makarov No kidding, but wouldn't it be something if it were? :D

Sometimes my posts aren't well structured, especially when ranting... that's likely why you missed this:
For example, could they have used actual Makarov barrels instead of the 4.5” test barrels when testing velocities for their 9x18?

Don't worry about me, there'll be no 7.62x25s crammed into my Russian IJ-70 any time soon. ;)

However if you've ever fired one MAJOR muzzle blast
You want to talk 7.62x25 muzzle blast?
My CZ-52 has seen its share of hardball from various nations, but I've also replaced the stock recoil spring with an 18.5 lb spring from Wolff to enjoy the wicked report and blast of these:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid114/p5e4af8b8590edb6e39249ee126590705/f8dc8af2.jpg

Note the advertised ballistics on the boxes. :D
Unlike the misleading velocities Winchester advertised, these were chronographed through a CZ-52, as it's "for CZ-52 only".
I suppose by using the 50fps/1" rule-of-thumb, those 1600 fps Winchester "screamers" are clocking around 1200 fps from our CZ-52s. Hopefully time will allow me the chance to chrono those one of these days.

[P95Carry]

IIRC my CZ-52 with S&B Tokarev ammo chronoed around 1500 - don't quote me cos some while ago.!

[The Drew]

IIRC 1500 for S&B factory loads is very typical... I've only shot one box of Winchester in my 52, and haven't gotten any of the super hot stuff... I mostly shoot S&B, as my 52 is a range queen... so I have no need for super loads... But I may buy a box sometime just to check it out...

[noonanda]

is the winchester 7.62x25 ammo similar to their 7.62x54R, ie it is made for winchester by S&B??? I may have to pick some of this up, or have wallyworld order some for me if it isnt insanely priced. how much is it a box and how many is in a box??

[mtnbkr]

Note the advertised ballistics on the boxes
If it's anything like their 32acp, it'll be overstated by a large margin. I chrono'd mine and found it running at just over half it's advertised velocity.

Needless to say, they had some interesting excuses.

Chris

[Snowdog]

Great, now I'm going to have an annoying hankering to chrono these rounds until I do.
They have much more of a blast than the 85gr S&Bs I typically use, but that by no means verifies their potent velocity. I've been doing JHP/play dough tests for years now and have continued to remained stumped as to why the 90gr XTPs at 1800 FPS held up as well as it did, exhibiting very little fragmentation.

I suppose now that I've heard a report of exaggerations from the company, I'll have to do some investigating. Thanks for the heads-up

[mtnbkr]

They have much more of a blast than the 85gr S&Bs I typically use, but that by no means verifies their potent velocity
The 32acp load I bought was obviously downloaded even based on the muzzleblast (or total lack of). Chances are, your stuff is fine...

Here are my original findings: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=99633

Chris

[JohnKSa]

The 7.62x25 ammo sold by Winchester is made by S&B. Last time I looked, Winchester was simply posting identical velocities as are posted on the S&B website. I don't know why S&B would use an 11" test barrel.

[Elmer]

A chronograph is a great investment. Especially now that they're so inexpensive. It's nice to see what your ammo/gun combination really does....