40 S&W, Light fast or heavey slow?


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BioDemon
June 2, 2005, 01:03 AM
I've read some articles that state that the 40 S&W 135 gr Cor-Bon at 1300fps has a one shot stop statistic of 97%, 155 gr hydra-shok at 94%, and a 180 gr hydra-shok at 89%. Data taken from Ed Sanow's article in Handguns Mag Jul 1996. I realy thought heavey bullets performed better. Are these article trends acurate?

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lyricsdad
June 2, 2005, 01:28 AM
I used to use the 165 hydra shoks, untill i heard they were downloaded. I now use for my SD ammo 180 reminton hi shok hollow points.

I practice w/ 165 winchester WB ball ammo. I just got done shooting some 6 dollars a box of 50 walmart special cci blazer ammo. They all fed prefect, but I noticed alot of buldging around the base of the shell. I quickly used them up. My local walmart is out of 100 rd value packs... grrr....

esldude
June 2, 2005, 01:29 AM
No.

Sanow's data is snake oil.

Go heavy on the bullet weights for best terminal performance.

www.firearmstactical.com is a good place for info.

Majic
June 2, 2005, 01:57 AM
You really should find the load that shoots accurately and reliabily in your handgun and not worry about all the one shot stop numbers that everyone seems to generate.

lycanthrope
June 2, 2005, 02:30 AM
Yep, whatever bounces best in your hand and makes the follow up easiest.

only1asterisk
June 2, 2005, 02:38 AM
165 Winchester Ranger or 165 Speer Gold Dolt would be my first choice. Second would be the 165 Remingto GS.

David

mete
June 2, 2005, 06:58 AM
Forget the numbers. Any premium 40 ammo will do the job well. As one cop said , it's hard to find a bad 40 round. I use 155 Hydra-shok and I'm testing Corbons DPX all copper rounds.

BioDemon
June 2, 2005, 07:05 AM
Elsdude, Thanks for the web sight! I realy liked this page http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm
Crazy how a little clothing over ballistic gelitan can change how a HP performs.

The Drew
June 2, 2005, 08:40 AM
The ballistics are best in the middle weight rounds, 155 or 165gr. 180gr factory loads are a bit downloaded in order to avoid catastrophic pressures...

However if you load your own, you can make full power 180gr. I personally carry 155gr GDHP's @1200fps

Velocity229
June 2, 2005, 11:59 AM
Actually the 40 SW is FAST AND HEAVY.

Speer Gold Dot 40SW 155 gr JHP's are excellent. Their bullets are BONDED. The core/jackets don't separate. Pretty close to LEO ammo.

A 155 gr bullet going 1200 FPS is really something. :evil:

Bobarino
June 2, 2005, 01:44 PM
i'm a fan of light and fast bullets in just about everything i shoot so i have mine loaded with Cor-Bon's 135 grainers. my second choice would be 155 gr Gold Dots. i don't have any hard data to back up my decision and i think you'd be quite well off with any of the modern HP offerings. me personally, the only time i would stay away from 180 grainers is if i was using a subcompact with a short, say ~2.5" barrel. i wouldn't have confidence in the bullet gaining enough velocity to expand reliably. otherwise, i'd feel very well protected if i had to use any of the major brand JHP's. but again, light and fast is just what happens to toot my horn.

Bobby

cookekdjr
June 2, 2005, 05:22 PM
You can't go wrong with the general .40 loadings.
The 155gr loadings are essentially .357 mag loadings with a wider bullet.
The 180gr loadings are essentially a 38-40 round- a 900 plus fps with a heavy bullet.
The 165gr fall in between.
Go with whatever round your gun shoots best. Its all good.
-David

PCRCCW
June 2, 2005, 06:03 PM
Lots of great advice.....find a round your gun likes and you have plenty of available to you and make sure its accurate.
I love Sabers, Dots and Corbon in the middle weights.......
Shoot well.

Elmer
June 2, 2005, 07:43 PM
No.

Sanow's data is snake oil.

Go heavy on the bullet weights for best terminal performance.

Indeed....

Anybody who quotes such statistics as "97% one shot stops" should be avoided at all costs.

Read up on the subject yourself, and stay away from gun magazines. You will probably find the lightweight, ultra high velocity rounds will overexpand, and underpenetrate. There are quite a few 180 or 165 grain loads that do quite nicely. The pressures will also be in line with what the gun and cartridge were designed for.

grendelbane
June 2, 2005, 09:31 PM
There are quite a few 180 or 165 grain loads that do quite nicely. The pressures will also be in line with what the gun and cartridge were designed for.

I agree with the preference for heavier bullets.

One way of looking at a caliber, and comparing it to another caliber, is to look at the sectional density of the various bullet weights involved.

Which is a complicated way of saying that a 180 grain .40 has a similar sectional density to a 230 grain .45 caliber.

The Drew
June 2, 2005, 10:05 PM
If you're shooting steel, then shoot 180 grain, if you're shooting for self defense, then go 155 or 165 in a good defensive loading like a GD GS or the fully loaded federals...

Elmer
June 3, 2005, 12:40 AM
If you're shooting steel, then shoot 180 grain, if you're shooting for self defense, then go 155 or 165 in a good defensive loading like a GD GS or the fully loaded federals...

And this would be based on what?

Please don't say Sanow, Marshal or Ayoob said so.......... :scrutiny:

kevin387
June 3, 2005, 03:02 AM
The 180 grain hydra-shok shoots poa in my P229 so that is what I prefer. I think most would agree that bullet placement is the most important aspect weight and speed would fall a far second and third.

BigSlick
June 3, 2005, 03:57 AM
Sanow's data is snake oil.

Agree whole-heartedly.

I shoot 155 and 165 gr factory stuff. Usually Corbons or Golden Sabers.

I load for both the 40S&W and 10mm.

From my informal testing, the 155 or 165 is where the 40 S&W gets about as good as it's going to. Expansion is good, weight retention is good and recoil is pretty mild.

I have loaded the 180 gr in 40, but it really works better in the 10mm - if you're using a mid to upper range load with both calibers.

I have always thought the 10mm ideal bullet was the 170 gr HP. Several mfrs used to make them, but with the advent of the 40, it seems the mfrs have gone to the 180gr.

I haven't had the opportunity to load and informally test a 170 gr offering in the 40 S&W. The 165's seem to work so well, I just can't help but wonder if a 170gr might be the sweet spot.

Overall, the 40S&W (or anything else) is more effective with good shot placement. If it were possible to shoot each caliber and bullet weight/design and each load in a test barrel or Ransom Rest, you could really get a look at performance. Of course, this would be for a specific load, in a specific barrel, with specific ambient conditions.

The Marshall/Sanow's data is a limited dataset. Some (many) believe, much of it was contrived/massaged/selected to support a specific opinion, just to help the notariety/popularity of the authors.

If you remember the JSSAP trials of the mid 80's, and the resulting hype, the Marshall-Sanow vs Marvin Fackler debate was a hot one indeed. The issues have all been beaten to death a thousand times over and then some.

A correctly placed hit, with any round is better than any perceived 'magic bullet'.

Bottom line, find out what YOUR gun shoots well, that is controllable when YOU shoot it and stick with it.

Just about any of the major factory offerings (and a few smaller factory offerings e.g. Corbon) will get the job done.

I was once told 'Armchair Commandos worry about penetration depth, expansion and a bullets reputation... the competent worry about how many times they can penetrate the bad guy.'

It always sounded reasonable to me.

BigSlick

The Drew
June 3, 2005, 09:46 AM
I base my opinion that a heavier bullet is better for knocking something down based on experience shooting steel...

My opinion on the middle weights is based on many things, it has nothing to do with the one shot stop BS. penetration tests, in conjunction of my basic calculation of powerfactor, and the old rumor of factory loads in 180 being lighter to avoid castastrophic pressures

I just don't see any reason NOT to shoot the 155's or 165's I think these loads are the perfect compromise between the light/fast, heavy/slow debate...

If you want heavy and slow go 45, light and fast then go .357sig, something in between then go .40

355sigfan
June 3, 2005, 01:46 PM
Drew your not going to knock anyone down with a pistol bullet. Knock down power is a myth. I would stay away from Hydra shocks they don't do well when fired into target with heavy clothing on they plug and act like ball ammo. Personally I don't care for the 40 but if I carried one I would carry the full power 165 grain loads followed by the 180 grain loads. The 165 grain loads actually have more energy and momentium than the 180 grain loads. But either will do fine. Not too many 155 grain loads I like.
Pat

The Drew
June 3, 2005, 01:53 PM
Did I say knock someone down??? NO, I said knock down steel... I realize knockdown power is a myth, but when you are shooting steel it isn't. Bigger heavier bullets knock down steel more reliably than lighter ones...

If you can find in my posts where I said anything about knocking a person down, I will humbly retract the statement...

My last post stated "something" not someone... It was meant to refer to steel and other hard targets...

And I reccomended 155 or 165 for self defense NOT 180gr...

Sean Smith
June 3, 2005, 02:36 PM
I'd say skip both extremes and go with a full-power (1,100+ ft/sec) 165gr load in a modern hollowpoint like a Gold Dot, Golden Saber or Ranger-T.

355sigfan
June 3, 2005, 02:43 PM
This thread is about self defense loads. You said you prefer heavier loads because they knock steel down well. That leads one to believe you also believe heavier loads will knock a person down as well. If not why bring it up. Personally I like heavy bullets in the 45 acp. My current carry load is the +p Federal HST. The reason is the +p 230 grain loads have desent energy and good momentium and expand and penetrate well. In 40sw I belive the best loads are the 165 grain JHP's specifically the HST, Ranger, Golddot, and Saber. In 9mm I prefer the middle weights as well the +p+ 127 Grain Ranger being the load I prefer. Bullet contstruction is far more important than weight or velocity.
Pat

The Drew
June 3, 2005, 04:00 PM
"If you're shooting steel, then shoot 180 grain, if you're shooting for self defense, then go 155 or 165 in a good defensive loading like a GD GS or the fully loaded federals..."

This was my first post on this thread #16 overall, then Elmer asked the following

"And this would be based on what?

Please don't say Sanow, Marshal or Ayoob said so.........."

I then responded with what I base my opinion on, which is where you picked things up...

So even though this thread is mainly about self defense, I interjected a little off topic in that I think when shooting steel go heavier. I never said I prefered 180 for defense, just for steel.

355sigfan
June 4, 2005, 02:05 AM
Drew no problem was not trying to be a jerk. Heavier bullets usually have more momentium in any given cartridge. The 40 is an exception. The 165 grain loads at 1150 have more momentium than 180 grain loads at 980. The 165 grain loads have a power factor of 190 while the 180 grain loads have a power factor of 176. Power factor is a momentium figure not a energy figure. Now in most other calibers the heaviest loads in the caliber have the highest power factor while the lighter loads have a higher kinetic energy level.
Pat

George Hill
June 4, 2005, 01:54 PM
I generally like the heavier loads in most calibers... but in .40 I like the 135 grain Cor-Bons. My USP absolutely loved them. Reliable and very accurate. Even though they are light, they still have good penetration which is the key... and they have great expansion which is just a bonus, but a good bonus to have when you can get it and the 135s get it a lot.

355sigfan
June 4, 2005, 02:01 PM
George you may want to re think your choice in the 135 grain Corbons they don't have good penetration like you think. They average about 10 inches in gelatin. They do terrible agianst most of the barriers in the FBI testing protical as well.
Pat

BioDemon
June 9, 2005, 06:53 AM
I think I'll go with the 155gr to 165gr bullet class. Thanks every one!

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