This doesn't smell right


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Tinker
June 2, 2005, 10:58 AM
http://www.wnbc.com/news/4558920/detail.html

Looks like someone ratted out this elderly collector out. Notice that they say this man was "charged", not "convicted" in the 70's.

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geekWithA.45
June 2, 2005, 11:21 AM
The pattern is elderly collector + largish gun collection + ammo all being hauled away.

Frankly, gang, if you've got a big collection and are getting up in age, make provisions to keep your arms among the citizenry, rather than the state's smelter, especially if you live in dark places.

The citizen's gun pool looses untold thousands of arms a year because those provisions aren't made.

A transferrable NFA item is a terrible thing to waste.

Stickjockey
June 2, 2005, 11:44 AM
Charged with "creating a hazardous situation"? He was storing some ammo. Admittedly, a lot of ammo, but so what? I think I'm gonna :barf:

kfranz
June 2, 2005, 11:50 AM
Notice that they say this man was "charged", not "convicted" in the 70's.

Did you read your own link? According to the article, with my bold
Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns. Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns.

Updated article, perhaps?

pcf
June 2, 2005, 12:00 PM
"Charged with "creating a hazardous situation"? He was storing some ammo. Admittedly, a lot of ammo, but so what? I think I'm gonna "

More likely for the "500 pounds" of gunpowder. Local firecodes usually have provision regarding amount and storage methods for gunpowder.

RevDisk
June 2, 2005, 12:28 PM
Police suspect many of weapons might have been bought at gun shows

Does anyone else see the stupitity of this line? They might as well have said "Some might have even been bought from gun stores."

Something is odd. The article never specifically says he has a felony on his record. They suggest it, but never actually say so. The reason I point this out, if Sherwin Raymond was a felon, the cops would not have charged him with "creating a hazardous condition". They would have hit him with nearly 500 felonies.

Unless they're being nice, and not tossing an old guy in the slammer since he's in bad health. Somehow, this doesn't make me see the NJ cops as being heros. Call me callous but I see it as the police robbing the guy for tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe hundreds of thousands. Especially when he is not apparently being charged with a a felony, instead of creating a hazardous condition.

Tinker
June 2, 2005, 12:49 PM
kfranz,

That is strange. The original article I read (when I first linked it) didn't even have that tidbit or that many paragraphs. In fact, there were only 3-4 paragraphs. They must've updated the page since I posted.

dasmi
June 2, 2005, 12:54 PM
Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns. Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns.
Well, if that's the case, then he gets what he gets.

Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast
I am a little disgusted with that line.
Has the same tone as "Sherwin Raymond, former physician and known sex offender."

HankB
June 2, 2005, 01:02 PM
"People knew he was a (gun) collector, but no one suspected the magnitude of what was found," police Chief John Bogovich told The Record of Bergen County for Thursday's newspapers. "This will be a monumental task to inventory." Don't know if the old codger is a real bad guy or not, but I wonder if it dawned on anyone that it would be a much less monumental task to inventory everything if choice bits of the inventory found their way into a safe place . . . say the home(s) of some of Jersey's Finest?

Rockrivr1
June 2, 2005, 01:12 PM
"Police said they sought the warrant after bringing Elizabeth Raymond back to her home on Memorial Day and seeing the windows and doors open"

How exactly is this probable cause for a search warrent? Seems like there might of been some liberties taken here.

DRZinn
June 2, 2005, 01:33 PM
RockRivr, ya beat me to it. Something really strange that open windows and doors were enough to get a warrant.

dasmi
June 2, 2005, 01:35 PM
His wife, who was not charged, was taken to a nearby hospital so she did not have to be alone.
Maybe she would've been fine alone if they hadn't taken away all the guns!!

io333
June 2, 2005, 02:29 PM
How exactly is this probable cause for a search warrent? Seems like there might of been some liberties taken here.

I see you've never lived in New Jersey. No, I'm not trying to be humorous.

nico
June 2, 2005, 02:38 PM
I agree there's something fishy about this story.
Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns. Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns.
I wasn't a journalism major, but ::puts on tinfoil hat:: I don't see those sentences as explicitly stating that the guy was a felon. If he was in jail while awaiting trial, one could say he spent time in prison for those offenses, and the second sentence isn't necessarily related to the first, even though it's implied. If that's the case, it would be a pretty ridiculous breach of journalistic integrity, but I don't trust the media in NJ to not put any gun related article in the worst possible light.

birddog
June 2, 2005, 02:54 PM
spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns

Am I safe in assuming, then, that he's not one of those doctors who asks patients if they have guns in their homes?

Sounds like a well-rounded guy. :uhoh:

Vodka7
June 2, 2005, 03:04 PM
I don't see those sentences as explicitly stating that the guy was a felon. If he was in jail while awaiting trial, one could say he spent time in prison for those offenses, and the second sentence isn't necessarily related to the first, even though it's implied.

Exactly what I was going to say. More telling, the man was not charged with unlawful possesion of firearms by a convicted felon or anything like that.

kfranz
June 2, 2005, 04:47 PM
Jail and prison, at least around here, are two different places.

RavenVT100
June 2, 2005, 05:40 PM
For many of New Jersey's Democrats, "Gun Enthusiast" has the same ring to it as "Sex Offender." They keep making it easier and easier to vote Republican.

Art Eatman
June 2, 2005, 09:04 PM
Hey, y'all are working really hard to turn things around.

Performing illegal abortions and then going to prison for it doesn't sound like misdemeanor time to me.

Nor does doing time for NFA violations involving multiple sales of full-auto stuff and silencers sound trivial. Remember that on the Yellow Sheet, the question is whether you've ever been charged with a crime for which the punishment could have been two years or more. Regardless of the outcome in sentencing, full-auto violations COULD have meant well above two years.

If the guy's smart enough to be a physician, he's smart enough to know the laws about his favorite hobby. He's 82, now; he was in his fifties at the time of the full-auto deal. Not exactly senile. If he'd jumped through the hoops to own legal full-auto stuff and silencers, he knew the law's requirements about selling.

If he didn't acquire the stuff legally, he's flat-out a law-breaker, and darned well knew it--since it's not been a secret since way, way back yonder...

As far as "right now", he's 82 and on dialysis, so the only real issue is security of the firearms, powder and ammo. Pointless to file any serious charges. Dunno about this guy, but my father only lasted a little over a year when his kidneys were failing to the point of needing dialysis.

Art

Standing Wolf
June 3, 2005, 12:25 AM
Police suspect many of weapons might have been bought at gun shows...

See? That proves government needs to close down those terrible gun shows.

nico
June 3, 2005, 03:40 AM
You're most likely right Art. The article is just written in a way that makes it seem like it was written by 1. a person whose resume consists of writing for a high school newspaper, or 2. a person who's trying to portray the situation in the way they want it to be seen by taking liberties with the facts. Given the quality of my college newspaper (which has a lot of junior and senior journalism majors), I don't doubt number 1.

rhubarb
June 3, 2005, 12:36 PM
In his own stinkin' house? Behind closed doors? ...and he didn't hurt anybody else?

Texas (I know it ain't PRNJ) law states:
46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM.
(a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he
possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary
of the person's release from confinement following conviction of
the felony or the person's release from supervision under community
supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is
later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at
any location other than the premises at which the person lives.
...so even someone convicted of a felony can, after five years, defend himself at home with a firearm after paying his debt to society. I'd take it even further. Someone convicted of any crime, no matter how despicable and heinous, should have his full rights as a citizen restored after serving whatever sentence is imposed by the court. If the penal system is done with him, though, it should be done with him. He learned his lesson, right? Pisses me off that they put folks in prison for petty offenses and mollycoddle murderers and rapists. If society ain't safe with some scumbag walking the street, don't let him out. Duh. If a convicted criminal ain't a danger to society and has served his sentence and/or paid his fine, leave him the hell alone. It's that simple.

I have never been arrested, charged, nor convicted of a felony, nor seen the inside of a jail.

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