[BryanP]

I've heard all the arguments. Wolf is crap. Wolf is just fine. Commie ammo for Commie guns, American ammo for American guns. However, with the disappearance of the less expensive brass-cased surplus I had a thought. I figured I should post it here before it gets lonely and leaves.

The main complaints I have heard about Wolf steel-cased ammo in AR's are:

1. The lacquer will gum up your chamber.
2. The steel cases will beat up your bolt face over time.
3. The steel cases will beat up your extractor over time.
4. The steel cases will beat up your firing pin over time.

With the lacquer coating now replaced by the new polymer coat it appears that complaint #1 has been addressed.

I was looking at AR parts and accessories the other day and realized that the cost savings of one case of ammo would pay for a replacement bolt, complete with extractor and firing pin. Two cases would save enough to pay for an entire bolt & carrier group.

So, my thought is this: Buy another bolt & bolt carrier group. Check headspace, make sure everything is fine. Designate that as the official Wolf Bolt. That way, even if complaints 2-4 turn out to be valid, by the time I get to my third case of ammo I'll be in the black again.

Is there anything missing in my logic? Are there any other problems it could cause that I'm not considering?

[GlocksRock]

Just shoot the wolf through it, and in the unlikely event that you do need to replace a part you will be able to afford it, and with the savings in ammo, buy more ammo. If it aint' broke, don't fix it.

[Lennyjoe]

I prefer not to shoot Wolf ammo out of my AR.

Thats not to say I haven't in the past, just would rather use brass cased ammo.

[BryanP]

Thats not to say I haven't in the past, just would rather use brass cased ammo.

So would I, and have so far. However, the South African & such that I was buying at gun shows for $17 per bag of 100 has disappeared. I haven't seen any of it for the last half dozen gun shows I have attended. I still have about 500 rounds or so floating around, but it won't last.

My main question is this - does anyone know of anything other than the bolt face & extractor, both of which are easily replaced for very little money, that could negatively affect my AR?

[ocabj]

I can't imagine how steel cases would affect the firing pin considering the firing pin only strikes the primer. As far as the extractor, you should always have a spare extractor in your repair kit. While I don't shoot Wolf centerfire, I don't think you should worry about it much.

[jobu07]

the South African & such that I was buying at gun shows for $17 per bag of 100 has disappeared.

I hear ya man. I loved that stuff. But until somethign cheaper comes along, wolf it is! :)

[Mannlicher]

I know lots of folks use Wolf and love it. I just won't run any steel case ammo through a weapon that was designed for brass cartridges.

[444]

Forget about the bolt, you will never need it.

What you need to start saving for is a barrel.
Why ?
Because you will be shooing far more than ever and evenutally, it will wear out.

[jefnvk]

From what I understand, the steel cased is nearly as soft as brass. Could be wrong, though.

[swingset]

That's correct - the steel in Wolf cases is very soft. Maybe a tad harder than brass, but not by much.

And, the polymer stuff (which is all that's out there now) makes this a non-issue. Less metal makes contact with your chamber than with a brass shell. What's hitting the chamber walls? Steel? No, Polymer coating. Softer yet than brass. Think about that.

And, if this hard steel case (which really isn't) really tears up extractors, I'd never know it. I have shot cases and cases and cases of Wolf through my Ar's, and I'm still going on the original extractors with no visible sign of wear or damage.

Even if I do break an extractor, big whoop. Not a big fix, not an expensive fix.

Wolf is fine, shoot it, enjoy it, screw the naysayers.

[Too Many Choices!?]

:uhoh: ! It is not because of the steel case though. The crap is impotent compared to the other ammo I have shot through my Bushie M4gery :neener: ...
It does not shoot well for me past 25 yards or so. I base this opinion on a simple test I did. 55 gr fmj Winchester white box value packs vs Wolf 55 gr fmj laquered case. I took random rounds from a few different boxes ,and loaded them into seperate magazines, then shot for group size. I did not measure the groups but only observed them. I noticed a much more," snappy", recoil from the Winchester. It was atleast half the size of the Wolf. Now I hear the polymer Wolf is better but I could only get some of that for my AK clone, or I would have checked it out also :( ...

Having said that, for cheap plinking ammo or just go bang ammo, Wolf really can't be beat... :o

PS ..Oh yeah, Wolf ammo may be hard on your extractor but I have fired over 700-900 rounds of it in .223(all laquered:what: ) with maybe 3 ammo failers(all duds), and no ill effects on extraction with my rifle yet.

[Commissar Gribb]

wolf ammo wont work in my ARs

at least 3 out of 10 shots would not extract properly

[50 Freak]

I agree Wolf sucks.

Dirty ammo
Very innaccurate

I prefer Federal XM193, but I can buy 1000 rounds of wolf for the price of 500 rounds of the XM193. I keep the XM193 for competition, SHTF ammo. But I plink with the Wolf. Can't beat their prices. :neener: :neener:

[jefnvk]

I prefer Federal XM193, but I can buy 1000 rounds of wolf for the price of 500 rounds of the XM193. I keep the XM193 for competition, SHTF ammo. But I plink with the Wolf. Can't beat their prices

That is probably the best way of doing it.

To me, the extra trigger time is much more important than the potential 1" better groupings.

[c_yeager]

I know lots of folks use Wolf and love it. I just won't run any steel case ammo through a weapon that was designed for brass cartridges.

AK and SKS rifles were designed for brass cartridges...

[jobu07]

AK and SKS rifles were designed for brass cartridges...

I was thinking that, but didn't want to open my yap trap until I heard it from someone else too. Lotta surplus x39 ammo out there that is corrisive and brass cased, true?

[mtnbkr]

$17 per bag of 100 has disappeared
At $7.73 per 40, WWB at Wallyworld is only a couple bucks more per 100. Actually, it's about the cheapest thing readily available other than stuff like Wolf.

I really want to use Wolf in my AR, but it just won't function with it. I even loaded a mag with Wolf on top and brass cased WWB in the last half, it jammed every other round until it hit the WWB, then it functioned fine.

Chris

[BryanP]

At $7.73 per 40, WWB at Wallyworld is only a couple bucks more per 100.
$199/1000 Lake City from Ammoman (delivered)
$193/1000 WWB from Wal Mart pre-tax (using your quoted price)
$212/1000 WWB from Wal Mart with TN sales tax
$170/1000 Surplus I was buying at gun shows before it dried up.
$129/1000 Wolf from Ammoman (delivered)

I used Ammoman as my example because he factors shipping into his cost, making it an easy apples-apples comparison.

Heck, I don't even know if Wolf will run in my AR. I have yet to encounter ammo that wouldn't run through mine yet, but you never know. The point may be moot. I'll stop by the local gun shop soon and pick up a few boxes to test with.

So far nobody has come back with anything that could be harmed by Wolf other than the extractor & bolt face, both of which are easily replaced for less than the cost difference of one case.

[halvey]

Shoot what you want, but I've seen "guns that never jam" jam with Wolf.

[TC66]

Another thing the wolf ammo will do is the steel cases will over time ding up your chamber. Everything else has been pretty much mentioned except this one last thing.

If you read the warrantys on most AR's it clearly states that any damage from firing steel cased ammo will not be covered.

*************************************************
The following items are specifically excluded from coverage under warranty:

Damage resulting from the use of ANY imported, handloaded, factory re-manufactured, or non-brass cased ammunition.

*************************************************
There are several other things that are also not covered but I just wanted to point out about the ammo types.

Think about it before you void your warranty.

[Master Blaster]

Reasonably priced surplus high quality reloadable brass.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_NATO__223_SS109.html

[halvey]

If you read the warrantys on most AR's it clearly states that any damage from firing steel cased ammo will not be covered. In fairness though, doesn't ANYTHING void the warranty? I don't have an AR, but I know all my pistol manuals say any reloads voids the warranty.

[Dionysusigma]

Wolf is cheap, dirty, smells bad, looks bad, people hate it, it makes A-Merc look like Norma, isn't made in America, but rather by children in Russian sweatshops (I think). What's not to like? :D ;)

Seems like nobody here in Oklahoma City carries Wolf anymore though--they all carry either Sapsan or Brown Bear (same stuff, different box... headstamps are identical). Granted, it doesn't smell quite as bad; but I like a picture of a wolf on a black background better than a bear on a sickly green background. *shrug* Call me silly, but I miss it. :(

[BryanP]

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_NATO__223_SS109.html

Ooooh. Now that's what I'm talking about.

[TC66]

I know what you are saying there is a lot of stuff that voids the warranty but when there is good Mil-Surplus ammo like XM193 or the British (Radaway Green) ammo from AIM that is very resonably priced.

Really I don't blame them for saying reloads void the warranty. You get someone who is new to it or does not know what they are doing and they over charge the round. Why should the manufacturer pay for that? I reload and I am very careful about it so I am not real concerned about that ever voiding my warranty.

If you think about it Mil-Surplus is really pretty hot and if you stay at that level or lower there will be no questions about it. But if you go out with the intent to load a round that will burn up the barrel again I don't blame them for voiding the warranty.

But shooting steel cases will show on the bolt and chamber of the rifle. Why take a chance?

1000 LC Once Fired Brass $18.00
4 LBS WC844 $36.00 = 1120 Rounds of ammo
1000 CCI Primers $16.00
1000 Winchester FMJ Bullets $34.00

With a $118.65 Lee Progressive Loading Press (http://www.fmreloading.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FMR&Product_Code=90633&Category_Code=Progressive+Presses) it will take you 2 hours to load. That is what rainy days are made for. Well that and cleaning your guns.

1000 Rounds Reloaded Ammo $104 and it will be far superior to Wolf any day.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think if you save enough money, it may make good economic sense to go with Wolf. At some point, you'll save enough money that even if you do destroy bolts at a higher rate, you'll still come out ahead on practice.

You may not get the same quality of practice since Wolf isn't up to the same standards as some of the other loads you mention; but if you are just blasting at less than 50yds that is less of a consideration.

[mtnbkr]

In Va, the WWB is 202/1000 after tax. That's close enough to Ammoman to not bother with mail order from them. The Aim surplus stuff looks good, but isn't that much cheaper after you factor in shipping. Assuming $15 for shipping, which is less than other places have charged me to ship 500 rounds of pistol ammo, we're talking about an effective price of $180ish per 1000.

Chris

[AirPower]

Heard good things about Wolf in AK, but also they're good for AR. No one has any concrete evidence how Wolf ammo has damaged their AR yet. if the difference is about $60 per 1000rd, you're looking at savings worth almost a new rifle after 10000rds. Even if you use milspec brass ammo, I'm sure it'll wear the gun, especially at extractor and bolt face after 10k.

[mtnbkr]

I agree airpower. Nobody has shown me definative proof of damage. I'd run it if my gun would cycle it, but it won't.

Chris

[444]

I love the internet.
There is so much BS that it is actually funny.
Let's do a little exercise: let's try to scratch chrome with a steel cartridge case.
Let me know how you make out.
If you suceed in scratching it, then you have proven me wrong. I will freely admit I am wrong on this open forum.

I suspect this will go right along with the last challenge I made. Take a round of Wolf ammo and heat it with a torch. Heat it as hot as you want. Make it cherry red hot. Now take some type of tool (your choice) and scrape the laquer off the case. If you get any off of the case, you will have proven me wrong and I will freely eat my words on this public forum.

In either case, you need to give me the details because I have tried both experiments more than once and was unable to do it. I will try your method and see if I can duplicate your results.

These internet BS myths are as silly as the extractor myths. Often discussed, never shown by anyone. I have fired over 10,000 rounds of Wolf ammo out of one of my AR15s. Still have the original extractor. I actually remove my extractor every few cleanings and clean and lubricate it. If it is damaged, the damage is not visible to the naked eye.
But then, why would I believe my own personal experience when I can buy into internet BS that no one can substantiate.

[TC66]

444

You may have your view on Wolf ammo but I am not going by the internet rumors or BS. Please feel free to call the AR manufacturers and ask them. I have and was told that steel cases will ding chambers and bolts. Also remember not all barrels have Chrome in them. Match barrels do not! I only have match bull barrels. Also the Bushmaster Varminter does not have Chrome in it either. Now do you want to stick with your blanket statement or would you like to be more speciffic. If you have the higher end AR with the Match barrels your statement is 100% incorrect.

I am not trying to flame anyone but there are more problems with Wolf as far as not cycling, jamming and poor accuracy to convince me it is not a good deal anyways not to mention the steel case issue.

[AirPower]

It's a valid point to set certain limits here, such as that Wolf is just fine for chromed bore. On the other hand, Wolf is definitely not match grade ammo, so they defeat the purpose of having nonchromed bull barrel or stainless barrels. it's sort of a given when one talks about Wolf plinking ammo that you're not going to shoot it for accuracy or through an AR set up for super accuracy.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Even without chrome-lining, I would be surprised to learn that a steel barrel designed to contain 55,000psi of gas pressure was sufficiently soft that the scrap steel used in Russian ammo was capable of dinging it or scratching it.

[444]

"Now do you want to stick with your blanket statement or would you like to be more speciffic. If you have the higher end AR with the Match barrels your statement is 100% incorrect."

Which specific statement do you want me to defend ?

[TC66]

There is so much BS that it is actually funny. Let's do a little exercise: let's try to scratch chrome with a steel cartridge case.

Not all barrels are chrome lined so you could easily damage a non chromed barrel shooting steel cases.

[Daedalus]

I have shot 2,000 rds of wolf through my ARs and only had 2 malfunctions, both FTEs that were fixed by giving the charging handle some love. I do not see the problem.

I am interested in starting reloading though, is that Lee Pro 1000 223 Rem package linked earlier in the thread the only thing (other than components) a guy would have to buy if he were to start reloading from scratch, 0% experience and tools?

[TC66]

That package comes complete with the exception of the double disk kit ($12) you will need. to reach the correct powder capacity for the .223. You will then only need brass, powder, primers and bullets. Be glad to help you with anything else you need to know.

[jobu07]

Also remember not all barrels have Chrome in them. Match barrels do not! I only have match bull barrels.

So why would you be using surplus ammo at all in your Match grade barrels? Aren't you looking for match grade ammunition? Generally, surplus ammo isn't match grade quality is it?

[444]

TC66
I agree that not all barrels are chrome lined, although all of mine are (10 and counting). I am getting ready to buy two that arn't. In those two barrels, I have no intention of shooting Wolf ammo. As was mentioned, in those two guns, I am looking for extreme accuracy. Thati isn't the role of Wolf ammo. This doesn't have to be a one size fits all, as you well know, being a handloader. You can tailor your load to your intended purpose. Same goes for factory ammo. In my two new rifles, I intend to handload Sierra 77 grain Matchking bullets for ultimate accuracy. However, the lion's share of my AR shooting does not demand precision accuracy. It is geared toward the "defenisive" use of the carbine. It consists of shooting silhouette targets, and steel reactive targets from the muzzle out to maybe 300 yards. If the ammo will consistantly shoot into a foot and a half group at 300 yards, that is plenty accurate for SOME of my purposes. I am an avid handloader. I have a whole room of my house dedicated to handloading. I think if you saw it, you would be impressed. The last time I moved, it took four guys most of a day to move my handloading gear and components. BUT, I don't always want or need to handload. When I find a factory ammo that costs the same or less than handloading and it performs up to my needs, then picking up brass and reloading it is a waste of my time. That is the case here. If I am practicing El Presidente's with the carbine against the clock, I don't want to stop after every run and hunt for my brass. And, thankfully, I don't need to.

Back to this argument. I never said that all AR15s had chrome lined chambers. What I did say is that I would be surprised if you could scratch chrome with a steel cartridge case. I didn't say this, but I also seriously doubt that you will scratch any quality chamber with a steel cartridge case. If your chamber is made out of something that is softer than a steel cartridge case, then this would be an exception.
I suppose it also needs to be said that this whole argument is based on the fact that you are using a good quality carbine. I really don't think that is the norm. When I see threads about someone wanting to buy/build an AR15 their questions and most of the answers focus on getting the absolute cheapest possible carbine. So, it doesn't surprise me when I read about people having problems with their carbines. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In my case, I primarily shoot Wolf out of two Bushmaster brand carbines. Both have 5.56 chambers, both have chrome lined chambers and barrels. Both are regularly maintained with the right tools and attention to detail. I have absolutely no problem at all. YMMV.
I have told this story several other times on this board, but I guess I will tell it again. A couple years ago, I took the Practical Rifle class at Frontsight. This is a four day class in which most of the people were using AR15 variants. At the time, I had several cases of Wolf 55 grain FMJ sitting in my inventory. It was what is referred to as the "old" Wolf with the laquered cases. I had been shooting a lot of it, and I knew my guns would function flawlessly with it. So, I showed up to the class with Wolf ammo. At the end of four days, I had shot the highest score in the class. I had shot a score that qualified me for their "Distinguised Graduate certificate". I had won the man on man shoot off. I had no problem at all hitting the pepper poppers at 400 yards. AND, I didn't have a single malfunction. Other people did have malfunctions (I don't know the reason for them), but not me. This class was held in pretty damn high winds, in the desert, with us rapidly getting into shooting positions. My carbine was a light tan color from the blowing dirt. But, it continued to run flawlessly. The whole time I was in this class, the instructors told me that Wolf ammo was junk and wouldn't work. They continued telling me this after the class was over. Just like many people on this board, the would rather believe something they heard or something they read rather than their own two eyes. Actually, the guy had softened his stance a little bit. He didn't say it wouldn't function (after the class was over) he just said that he wouldn't trust that ammo for defensive purposes. And, I wouldn't either: again, everything in it's proper place. I had no desire to make Wolf the only ammo I shot. I have Hornady TAP for defensive purposes or my own handload using the same Hornady V-Max bullet.

PS: One more point about that class. The reason I shot so well is because I was able to practice A LOT prior to taking it. I went out a couple times a week and fired one or two hundred rounds practicing various drills. Obviously, this paid off. I could have done it with handloads or even more expensive factory ammo, but it would have been more expensive and it would have been for no good reason.

[Samuel_Hoggson]

Issues:

1. Lacquer. Non issue. Buy Polymer Wolf.

2. Bolt face wear. Huh? Just how....... Oh, never mind. OK. M16 bolts are supposed to be good for 20k to 25k rounds (depends on who you read). This is roughly twice the expected lifespan of a barrel. Let's say that b/c you use nothing but Wolf you decide to replace the bolt when the barrel goes. (FWIW, I won't be doing this) So we add another $60. Since we just saved $800 to $1000 by using Wolf to shoot those 10k rounds......we got hurt how?

3. Extractor wear. Discussed ad nauseum above. Buy some extractors and relax.

4. Firing pin wear. Please........ Last time I checked the firing pin on my bolts have been unable to touch any part of a steel Wolf case. OTOH, they have been beating the crap out of Wolf primers. An AR or 16 bolt that will permit the firing pin to contact the rear of the case - whether brass or steel - has a serious problem.

Sam

[TC66]

444

My main point is this. Every one is talking about saving money and scrimping on the quality of ammo by buying Wolf rather than XM193. But everyone knows Wolf is not known for as good of accuracy as handloads. If you can handload 1000 rounds of great quality ammo (=to XM193 or better) for $104 why would you even chance damaging a rifle shooting steel cases.

Lets be realistic if steel cases were OK to shoot in chrome lined or non chrome lined barrels and chambers the US Military would be using it. It is cheaper to make than brass cases.

On another note I don't think ammo is good if it shoots a foot and a half at 300 yards. I am talking no more than 5 inches at 300 yards. Shooting Prarie Dogs will not work if you are shooting foot and a half groups at 300 yards. If it is worth shooting it is worth doing right.

Everyone has their own uses and that is fine for them I guess. It just does not make sense to me to shoot inaccurate junk and not know if you can actually hit a small target at distance when the option to reload your own high quality ammo and save money and not chance damaging your weapon with steel cases at the same time is available to everyone. It is too easy to set up everything you need and it is rediculously inexpensive.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23172

[Samuel_Hoggson]

Accuracy requirements such as yours are a very legitimate reason not to select Wolf. And if I were only shooting semi-auto I think reloads would be an economical alternative......assuming my time is valueless.

In my RR 16s I will not shoot any handloaded ammo, not even my handloaded ammo. And at MG shoots I really don't care about MOA accuracy. I'm looking for blasting ammo. Wolf is cost-effective, reliable, relatively under-powered (yes, I like that). I have never seen one high primer, nor have I seen a telescoped head b/c of a failure to feed. I have deliberately tried to defeat Wolf neck tension and failed. I have deliberately tried to stick a polymer case in a very hot chamber and failed. I cannot say the same for my reloads.......and I've been doing this for 40 years. Given the price of a RR M16 these are issues I worry about. I do not worry about a broken extractor. But I do worry about squibs.

FWIW, I find Wolf about 1 MOA less accurate than most other M-193. If it were 3 MOA less accurate (say 6 MOA) I'd still buy the stuff.

I don't think that proponents would argue that Wolf is for everyone. Grousing about steel case induced wear is short-sighted. I'm up to about 6k now and have broken absolutely nothing.

Sam

[Kamicosmos]

Also the Bushmaster Varminter does not have Chrome in it either.

I've shot Wolf through my Bushmaster Varminter on occasion, and it did just fine. No scratches in the chamber, no jams, no misfires, no FTE, and my bolt survived. Only other ammo that goes through my Varminter are handloads, but I wanted to make sure the gun would run Wolf, nore out of curiosity. Wolf's only problem is accuracy. My Varminter does .5 inch groups with my handloads. Nice factory stuff does about 1-1.5. Wolf does about 4"
Do I plan on shooting cases of Wolf through it? Of course not. That's what my AK is for! But, I don't think Wolf is going to hurt my gun any more than any other ammo out there.

the US Military would be using it. It is cheaper to make than brass cases.

They used to. Look at WWI and WWII. Lots of steel cases back then when the brass started getting hard to find. We use Brass now mainly because it's lighter. Somthing on the order of 2 pounds per loadout or something, I'm sure someone with military experience will confirm this. That's why they're looking into that new polymer case. The gov't doesn't care about cost savings on ammo. They do care (a little) about weight savings for logistics though.

[TC66]

Look at WWI and WWII. Lots of steel cases back then when the brass started getting hard to find.

Did they have AR-15's in WWI and WWII. That end that discussion.

I've shot Wolf through my Bushmaster Varminter on occasion, And if I fired it on occasion it might not damage mine either. But if you are blasting the ???? out of it I promise it will do damage. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow but it will wear it out faster.

And if I were only shooting semi-auto I think reloads would be an economical alternative......assuming my time is valueless.
What you can't sit there and watch TV and pull the lever on a progressive press at the same time? Pick a rainy Sunday and I will put in a good movie and watch it. Just by coincidence I will be loading ammo at the same time. No time wasted. I can do 1000 in about 2.5 hours. I save $25 to $30 over the price of a case of Wolf and I have extra money to spend on accessories. Plus I have ammo that will do Sub MOA. Hey if it rains all day I will sit and load all day long while watching TV. I always have around 3000 to 4000 empty's around that need filled. No matter what you are shooting you should always try to achieve the best accuracy possible. Why waste 10 rounds when it only takes one well placed round.


For all you diehard WOLF fans have fun and shoot that stuff all you want. I get ammo that costs less and is much more accurate. Just remember my earlier post. You are most likely voiding your warranty by shooting steel cases but have fun anyways. I mean it was only the AR Manufacturers that said don't use it. The Military does not use it in their AR's or SAW'S or any other current weapon carried by our troops. If it is not good enough for them why would you fire it in your personal weapon? No further responses will be posted I am tired of this discussion. If you wanna shoot WOLF go for it. Have fun and happy shooting.

[jefnvk]

If you can handload 1000 rounds of great quality ammo (=to XM193 or better) for $104 why would you even chance damaging a rifle shooting steel cases.
Because loading 1000 rounds of ammo takes time. And not all of us have handloaders that can cost more than our most expensive rifle. And the fact that for plinking ammo, I don't care much about the sub-MOA v 2MOA argument. And because your guarantee that it will cause damage is not proof that it will. If it costs me upwards of $1000 to invest in a setup like that, plus $100 a batch, I am not exactly saving money. And because I am not a fan of chasing empties all over the place.

Did they have AR-15's in WWI and WWII. That end that discussion.
So AR's are manufactured inferiorily to WWI/WWII guns? Guns have gone downhill in terms of quality over the past 50 years?

No further responses will be posted I am tired of this discussion.
You're the only one hat seems to have a problem with people using Wolf.

[railroader]

TC66, those prices are great but where can I get the components that cheap? Mark

[HKrazy]

Many manufacturers don't have a problem with steel cased ammo. HK boasted that their rifles work reliably with lacquered steel cased ammo in a 1970 technical article:
Cartridge case obturation, the greatest uncertainty factor in every automatic weapon, is reduced so much by the introduction and further development of the fluted chamber and has become uniform for all types of cartridge cases, including lacquered steel cases, that operation is reliable in every situation, even under the most adverse firing conditions.
Link to whole article. (http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm)

There is an internet rumor floating around that you should not use Wolf in fluted chamber HKs but, as you can see, that is baloney.

The steel in Wolf is so soft, it will not harm a gun. After all, there is nothing special about an AK's chamber or extractor and they don't wear out with steel cased ammo. I have shot over 6,000 rounds of Wolf and my friends have easily shot 15,000 rounds with no damage.

It is excellent, reliable, inexpensive plinking ammo.

[Kamicosmos]

Did they have AR-15's in WWI and WWII.

Nope. And I'm pretty sure they didn't have chrome lined chambers then either.

[jobu07]

Why waste 10 rounds when it only takes one well placed round.

Obviously you've never been to a class III shoot :p Seriously, if you ever watch these fella's with M16's unload case after case of nasty dirty rifle damaging Wolf ammo and run it through their $15000+ machine guns... There is nothign wrong with that ammo and they are running it through there faster that you'll ever pull the trigger semi-auto. And if folks are willing to run wolf ammo through one rifle that costs more than some folks entire (heck most folks) collections, it has to speak to you.

[TC66]

Railroader
TC66, those prices are great but where can I get the components that cheap? Mark If you are serious send me a private message and I will be glad to tell you where to get the components.


Obviously you've never been to a class III shoot
No you are right I have never been to a organized class III shoot. But I did serve in Desert Storm with the CAV so I would say I have seen more than my fair share not to mention I participated with my M2 .50 cal, AT4 anti tank missles, and yes the trusty M16. Everything I fired on auto or semi was brass.

And not all of us have handloaders that can cost more than our most expensive rifle. If you would take the time to read my previous posts you will clearly see where I showed you to get a progressive press with dies and shell holders and powder measures and everything you need for the low cost of $118.65. Everything you need to load your components. Lee Pro 1000 223 Rem. (http://www.fmreloading.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FMR&Product_Code=90633&Category_Code=Progressive+Presses)

If it costs me upwards of $1000 to invest in a setup like that, plus $100 a batch See previous comment.

And because your guarantee that it will cause damage is not proof that it will. It is not my promise. I can show you in writing that if you fire it you will void your warranty. If it voids the warranty then there is something wrong.

And because I am not a fan of chasing empties all over the place. That is fine shoot some brass and leave it lay I will pick it up. But then again I order mine at $18 per 1000 of Once Fired LC Brass that price is shipped. So if I never picked up brass I still am saving money by reloading. But I do have a brass catcher so I am not chasing things all over.

If people would just listen about the costs of reloading and the components it is easy to see that is it very cost effective. Yes time is involved but over time you will save more money than shooting Wolf. Everyone gets so offensive about me not liking Wolf but they wont give me a chance to show them how to do better. But I guess all people are not open to new things. Oh Well I tried. Have a nice life and happy shooting.

[dfaugh]

Why would I own a gun that wouldn't reliably feed almost anything I could feed it, other than "reasonable" wear and tear(You never know what you might have to shoot through it)....Maybe that's why I don't own an AR (and probably never will). My SKSs will feed ANYTHING and are actually pretty accurate (although I won't claim the same for alot of AKs). And for the cost of and AR I can buy 4 or 5 of 'em!

(flame suit, and Kevlar vest installed :evil: )

[jefnvk]

dfaugh, my experience has been that most guns have something they don't like. My SKS just doesn't like soft points, for some reason.

It is not my promise. I can show you in writing that if you fire it you will void your warranty. If it voids the warranty then there is something wrong.

In your own post:
The following items are specifically excluded from coverage under warranty:

Damage resulting from the use of ANY imported, handloaded, factory re-manufactured, or non-brass cased ammunition.


Looks to me that they are pretty much trying to absolv themselves of fixing things. By your logic, you shouldn't use imported ammo (S&B), handloaded (your own), or factory re-man ammo (some Black Hills stuff) because they WILL damage the gun, either. So stop handloading and go buy CMP Federal stuff for $100/500.

[jobu07]

I would say I have seen more than my fair share not to mention I participated with my M2 .50 cal, AT4 anti tank missles, and yes the trusty M16. Everything I fired on auto or semi was brass.

TC, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had never fired a machine gun or that the military doesn't use high quality brass cased ammo. All I was saying is that these guys who show up to class III shoots with there $15,000+ machine guns don't hesitate to put an entire case of Wolf through it one afternoon. If they spend that much on a rifle, and see no ill effects from Wolf from the quantities that they put downrange, I don't see why Wolf isn't good enough for any of our humble semi-automatic AR-15's.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Damage resulting from the use of ANY imported, handloaded, factory re-manufactured, or non-brass cased ammunition.

I thought I was the only one that caught that. Good catch, jefnvk.

[Samuel_Hoggson]

Cost is the criterion. Years ago, Norinco was the deal. This was of variable quality and, supposedly, not all of it non-cor. But everyone I know was using it. Why? B/C it was 10 cents/pop. Barrels were mostly chromed.......and if they rusted.........who gave a crap. Get another one. None of the belt-fed boys ever cared about corrosive vs. non-corrosive ammo. Why should the 5.56 crowd feel otherwise?

Then along came lacquered Wolf. Some would say that the lacquer, or maybe the steel.......or maybe the primer sealant, deterred the NFA crowd. Pure BS. SA M193 battlepacks were then readily available for about the same price. So that's what got burned. If there had been no SA the lacquered Wolf would have been the deal........so what if we have to Kroil or WD the chambers every coupla hours.

Parenthetically, it happens that I did burn a fair amount of lacquered Wolf in 16s. Guess I'm just lucky b/c I never stuck a case or killed an extractor. Except for shorties almost all malfs I've had were mag related. Shorties were an educational journey ending with D-rings and heavier buffers.......sorry to stray OT.

The SA and Malaysian have dried up. When you can find SA folks want ridiculous money for it. So Wolf Polymer is king. Noone I know is thumbing their nose at Wolf and burning Q3131A at 20 cents/pop in their 16s, HKs, whatever. It's as simple as that.

Yes, if I could buy 100k rounds of LC M193 for 10 cents/pop I'd buy it. But I'm not holding my breath.

In the last five years I have seen the use of reloads at MG shoots diminish. We all understand that we could save a coupla cents/pop using reloads. This "rethinking" correlates with a doubling in the price of RR16s that occurred over this time period.

Sam

[Gary G23]

A year ago I did the math and decided to give commie ammo a try. I have used lacquered steel cased Barnaul and Brown Bear ammo in my Bushmaster for the last year. With the money I saved I bought a new Bushmaster. A couple of weeks ago the extractor did break in the old Bushmaster but $15 and a few minutes later is was running again.