[wingman]

Loophole to America





Migrants exploiting border law for non-Mexicans
By Jerry Kammer
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
June 4, 2005

McALLEN, Texas – In the silvery-blue light of dusk, 20 Brazilians glided across the Rio Grande in rubber rafts propelled by Mexican smugglers who leaned forward and breast-stroked through the gentle current.



DAVID FAHLESON / Copley News Service
Illegal immigrants from countries other than Mexico often gather at the bus station in Harlingen, Texas, call friends and relatives and catch a bus out of town.
Once on the U.S. side, the Brazilians scrambled ashore and started looking for the Border Patrol. Their quick and well-rehearsed surrender was part of a growing trend that is demoralizing the Border Patrol and beckoning a rising number of illegal immigrants from countries beyond Mexico.

"We used to chase them; now they're chasing us," Border Patrol Agent Gus Balderas said as he frisked the Brazilians and collected their passports late last month.

What happened next explains the odd reversal.

The group was detained overnight and given a court summons that allowed them to stay in the United States pending an immigration hearing. Then a Border Patrol agent drove them to the McAllen bus station, where they continued their journey into America.

The formal term for the court summons is a "notice to appear." Border Patrol agents have another name for it. They call it a "notice to disappear."

Of the 8,908 notices to appear that the immigration court in nearby Harlingen issued last year to non-Mexicans, 8,767 failed to show up for their hearings, according to statistics compiled by the Justice Department's Executive Office of Immigration Review. That is a no-show rate of 98 percent.



The problem is that U.S. immigration authorities are short on detention space. They can send Mexicans back across the border within hours. But international law prohibits them from sending non-Mexicans to Mexico. Instead, they must arrange travel documents and flights directly to the immigrant's country of origin. The process, which the U.S. government pays for, takes weeks or even months.

The result is an unintended avenue of entry for a rapidly growing class of illegal immigrants from Central and South American who now see the Border Patrol more as a welcome wagon than a barrier.

It is one example of the tears in the "seamless web of enforcement" that immigration authorities vowed to establish along the U.S.-Mexico border during the 1990s, when they spent billions of dollars on strategically placed lights, sensors, roads, fences and agents. It also helps explain why the nation's illegal immigrant population has grown to record levels despite the buildup.

The morning after Agent Balderas encountered the 20 Brazilians, another Border Patrol agent drove them to the McAllen bus station where they headed toward their destinations. They were armed with notices to appear that carried them safely past Border Patrol checkpoints.

Two days later, Graice De Olveira-Silva and three companions from Brazil were working for her relatives' house-cleaning business in Atlanta.

It is a world turned upside down for the Border Patrol, especially here in South Texas. Back in 1985, things were so different that a woman was convicted on charges that she drove illegal immigrants from El Salvador around the Border Patrol and to the same McAllen bus station.

Now smugglers operate with impunity. After their loads of immigrants splash ashore, the smugglers slip back across the river.


As word of this border loophole filters back to Central and South America, the volume of people coming to exploit it is likely to grow, according to Border Patrol agents.

Apprehension statistics bolster their assertion. Arrests of non-Mexicans along the U.S.-Mexico border totaled 14,935 in 1995, 28,598 in 2000 and 65,814 last year. In the first eight months of this federal fiscal year, which began Oct. 1, more than 85,000 have been apprehended. Nearly all are no-shows at their court hearings, but comprehensive federal figures are not available.

Statistics aren't the only evidence. Interviews with immigrants caught sneaking across the border recently suggest the problem will only increase as Central and South American migrants learn of the unintended opportunity.

"We thought they were going to deport us," said Ceidy Milady Canales Alvarez, a 22-year-old Honduran recently arrested by the Border Patrol in the McAllen sector. She said a cousin in Atlanta had encouraged her to make the trip. So she quit her $50-a-week job sewing shirts and pants that are exported to the United States and crossed the border.

A Guatemalan arrested late last month in the McAllen sector who gave his name as Hugo said that when word gets back home, "Anyone who has a little money will be coming."

In his office on Capitol Hill, Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas, fumed at the news from South Texas and called for emergency measures similar to those he adopted in 1989, when he was the Border Patrol's agent in charge of the McAllen sector.

"We need somebody with a stiff spine who can make a decision and say, 'We're going to build a temporary detention facility,' " Reyes said. "We need to send a message that anybody who crosses that border illegally is going to be detained. That message gets back (to the sending countries) instantaneously."

Sixteen years ago, Reyes faced a rush of immigrants fleeing the violence of Central American civil wars. Most of their asylum claims were rejected, but only after the migrants had moved far away, armed with notices to appear in court.

"They were coming across and flagging my men down," Reyes said. "It was destroying their morale."

He got permission from the commissioner of the old Immigration and Naturalization Service to establish a temporary tent city with several thousand beds for detained immigrants. That measure, coupled with an increase in the number of agents at key border crossing points, shut off the flow, Reyes said.

But the current director of immigration detention and removal operations in South Texas wants nothing to do with such emergency measures.

"Anytime you have temporary facilities, you have a degradation of services, you have anxieties," said Marc Moore, who administers 1,700 detention spaces.

Reyes reacted angrily to Moore's remarks. While a temporary facility would be expensive and might not be as tidy as Moore would like, Reyes said, "All these things are worth it given the alternative of the permiso syndrome."

Central and South Americans call the notice to appear their "permiso," which in Spanish means permission slip.

About 19,450 immigration detention beds are available nationwide under funding levels established by Congress. Although that is twice the number of beds Congress funded a decade ago, it is far less than the number needed.

With the shortage of beds, immigration authorities must choose between using a bed to hold a migrant with a serious criminal record in the United States or one who has come across the border without a criminal record. It's an easy choice. They release the immigrant without the criminal record.

Many Border Patrol agents express frustration over the dilemma. They also worry that the high volume of non-Mexicans is taking up much of their time and might be making it easier for potential terrorists to slip past. Some said they spend much of their 10-hour shift processing non-Mexicans.

One night last month when six agents were processing non-Mexicans at the Border Patrol's Rio Grande City station, for example, only seven agents were patrolling the 84 miles of river under their watch.

Agent Isidro Noyola, who that night detained illegal immigrants from Brazil and Honduras, said, "Our fear is that when we are processing and not patrolling the border, somebody else is going to be coming through."

Another agent expressed astonishment at the cheekiness of some of the migrants.

"They come up to you and say, 'I want my permiso,' " Agent Larry Alvarez said. "They want us to hurry up and get them out of here."

Others with the Border Patrol complained that they are being reduced to little more than gun-toting travel agents in uniforms.

In particular, the growth in the number of Brazilians taking advantage of the loophole has been spectacular, largely because of that country's poor economic conditions. In 1995, the Border Patrol detained 260 Brazilians along the Mexican border. Five years later, the number had grown to 1,241. But over the past eight months, it has soared to some 22,000.

The number of Brazilians floating north over the Rio Grande might continue to increase because of a prime-time soap opera in Brazil whose central character is smuggled across the Mexican border and finds work as an exotic dancer in Miami.

Since its first episode aired in March, "America" has become Brazil's most popular "telenovela." In a country of 178 million, it has an audience of some 60 million.

[captain obvious]

Of the 8,908 notices to appear that the immigration court in nearby Harlingen issued last year to non-Mexicans, 8,767 failed to show up for their hearings, according to statistics compiled by the Justice Department's Executive Office of Immigration Review. That is a no-show rate of 98 percent.


Wow - you mean some of them are dumb enough to show up?

[Standing Wolf]

Our fear is that when we are processing and not patrolling the border, somebody else is going to be coming through.

Oh, gosh! I wonder whether that's a realistic fear!

[garyk/nm]

"Anytime you have temporary facilities, you have a degradation of services, you have anxieties," said Marc Moore, who administers 1,700 detention spaces.

Well, we certainly can't have that, now can we?

[armoredman]

Simply shoot anyone caught snealing across the border as a potential terrorist. After all, TSA bans people from airlines on illegal "watch lists", people who have done nothing terroristic, so those who have done something terroristic, (ie, violate US territory by illegal invasion) can be summarily shot, right? Or, like that one sherrif, arrest them for criminal tresspass....
How about changing the bail law to no one, who is not a US citizen, resident alien, here with a valid approved visa, tourist or otherwise, may be relaesed on bail of any kind, nor may bail be posted for same by any other person, agency or government, unless a foriegn government is willing to provide immediate transport for the detainee out of US territory, at that government's expense.

[Old Fuff]

>> "We need somebody with a stiff spine who can make a decision and say, 'We're going to build a temporary detention facility,' " Reyes said. "We need to send a message that anybody who crosses that border illegally is going to be detained. That message gets back (to the sending countries) instantaneously."

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas <<

He expects to find somebody within OUR government with a "stiff spine???"

[Sir Aardvark]

That Sheriff in Arizona made a "Detention Facility" out of chain link fence and then used Army Surplus tents to house his prisoners in. His thinking behind things were to make conditions so miserable for his prisoners that they would not want to break the law in his county ever again.

It's kinda funny that our government can find the money to give farm subsidies to multimillionaires who live in New York, but cant scrape up enough dough to protect our borders.

Kind of makes you wonder what the REAL reason is behind things, because whatever it is, it escapes me ?!?!?

[jefnvk]

"We need somebody with a stiff spine who can make a decision and say, 'We're going to build a temporary detention facility,' " Reyes said. "We need to send a message that anybody who crosses that border illegally is going to be detained. That message gets back (to the sending countries) instantaneously."

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas

Ummm...

Isn't he in the government? COuldn't he be the one with a stiff spine?

:confused:

[El Tejon]

jef, you certainly don't expect CONGRESS to address a national problem do you? Afterall they are sooo busy trying to take our guns how to expect them to have time to deal with immigration? :D

Dear Vishnu! People coming here to do the work that the native-born refuse to do! The horrors! :rolleyes:

[2nd Amendment]

People coming here to do the work that the native-born refuse to do! The horrors!

Wouldn't it be wonderful if fantasies like this ever turned out to be true?

[El Tejon]

You're in luck, 2nd, because it is happening everyday. :)

Everyday I see immigrants working (today they were working on my yard), everyday I see the native-born complain to my face about their welfare checks not being big enough or how they refuse to "do that kind of work" to pay their back child support. Heck, up here we just had a native-born murder (allegedly) another native-born over a welfare check (with a rock, ban rocks for the children). *sigh* Job security. :D

[wingman]

Everyday I see immigrants working

Illegal, or legal.?

Look this idea you have about only immigrants will work is false, you may like
to think that for your own personal reasons but it's simply not true.
I have worked and lived along the border, I have worked with legal and illegals, some good, some bad, guess what like all folks. I will say we see
a worse element coming now then in past years however the issue is
the numbers and the cost of services to the working taxpayer of America.

It's all about cheap labor for the wealthy...... :barf:

[2nd Amendment]

One is not related nor causal to the other. I can show you legal immigrants sitting around waiting on welfare checks(their wive's). I can show you natives mowing lawns for 3 or 4 bucks an hour. I've never had an alien, legal or not, come and offer to wash my windows for $20(or any price, and if you ever saw the front of my building you'd know why)but I have had a local woman do it so she could feed her kids.

Residents, people born here, by and large do not refuse jobs no matter how pathetic the job. Citing those who do is akin to your prior attempts to site aberations such as Chinatowns when people note the fact incoming illegals today refuse in much larger percentages to become a part of their new nation of choice than did prior immigrants. You cite a few to support what you want to believe. You cite another few to support it in this way....

Meanwhile most illegals continue to refuse to learn the language or become part of our society and continue to suck up jobs poor Americans would be happy to have. Sorry, Tejon, that's just how it is. It doesn't fit in the fantasy very well but I can't help that.

[El Tejon]

wingman, my "idea" that immigrants work and the native-born do not comes from my personal experience. It is more than an idea; it is reality. If the native-born wanted to work, they would be working. The "safety net" is a hammock for those that game the system.

2nd, I see people born here refuse to work every single day. I see immigrants fighting hard to work every single day.

Fantasy? I respectfully disagree; I call it historical reality. Some see disaster, I see history repeating itself.

Today's immigrants refusing to learn the language? There has always been a percentage of immigrants that will not learn English. Heck in Southern Indiana German was spoken for generations until 1917. No concern about German?

Immigrants from the Baltic States settling in Indianapolis spoke their languages and held religious service in their language and no one blinked an eye. At their festivals and community events I rarely heard English and did not see American flags but the flags of Estonia or Latvia. Should I have turned them in for sedition?

In some neighborhoods in Chicago one can hear Russian or Polish being spoken in public (the gall!). No one wrings their hands over this.

Today's hysteria is just like yesterday's hysteria. The complaining about "culture" and "language" is just the same as it was about the eeevil Italians with their different religion with loyalties to a foreign leader, dirty Poles, drunken Irish, the hordes of diseased Chinese. Substitute any of those groups with today's groups and you see the same hysteria.

Many in these groups did not come here legally. Today those groups are looked to with warm feelings, or even *shudder* pride in one's immigrant roots. How much of THR is descended from Italians, Poles, Irish or Chinese?

I see the hand-wringing over emmygrants as symptom of denial and projection. Instead of looking at ourselves in the mirror and addressing our problems, such as the Welfare State, we blame others for our inane decisions. :)

[Bwana John]

Residents, people born here, by and large do not refuse jobs no matter how pathetic the job.
When I worked as a night-janitor and custodial manager at a ski area I found the above statement to be false.
The people I could get to do those jobs were hardworking, industrious, polite, and are now upstanding members of the comunity.
Right or wrong, that just the way it is. Even if it dosent fit into your particular fantasy very well 2nd A.

It's all about cheap labor for the wealthy......
We all benefit from it, one way or another.

[gc70]

El Tejon, you would be a lot more persuasive if didn't use so many absolutes. When you take good ideas and observations and exaggerate them, you end up sounding like a cheerleader for illegal immigrants.People coming here to do the work that the native-born refuse to do!Yes, I am sure that this is true in some cases. I am also sure that some native-born refuse work at below minimum wage and without benefits just because some illegals do. I am also sure that some employers won't hire native-born workers at minimum wage and with benefits when they can hire illegals on a cash-under-the-table basis for a fraction of the cost.

Your observations that larger, more-concentrated immigrant groups are slower to assimilate is certainly true. There have always been immigrants who were too lazy to try hard to fit in, other than in their own comfortably familiar ethnic enclave. Just because something is a historic fact does not mean that it should be encouraged.

You know that the problem is not 'evil immigrants' but the economic and political incentives that promote illegal immigration. Why don't you talk about specific problems and solutions?

[DRZinn]

Immigrants from the Baltic States settling in Indianapolis spoke their languages and held religious service in their language and no one blinked an eye. At their festivals and community events I rarely heard English and did not see American flags but the flags of Estonia or Latvia. Should I have turned them in for sedition?

In some neighborhoods in Chicago one can hear Russian or Polish being spoken in public (the gall!). No one wrings their hands over this.The difference, obviously, is that all those groups learned English. We're not complaining about people speaking Spanish at home, at church, or at festivals and community events. The problem is when I walk into a place of business and there are employees who do not speak English. Could I work in Mexico without speaking Spanish? Doubtful.

The work that "native-born" will not do is any work at less than they are worth. The illegals are willing to perform work at a lower wage than the true market value of the job in a secure environment. They are able to do so because their education, safety, and health care are subsidized by the American taxpayer. Cut off the handouts, and they wouldn't do the job either - or at least not without a substantial raise.

[Old Fuff]

With very few exceptions, Mexico's common larborer class have been raised from childhood to accept living conditions and wages that are well below what they can earn in the United States, even if they are exploited by employers that offer sub-standard pay. This largely explains why they keep coming north to this country. Given their past experience in the home-country the worst they can expect here is better then anything they can look forward to in Mexico.

So will they take jobs that native-born folks in this country, under similar circumstances and conditions will not? You bet they will!

During past years most imagration to this county was legal. What we are seeing now isn't, and for various reasons our government (under both Republican and Democrat administrations) refuse to do anything about it.

That is what the problem is ...

[2nd Amendment]

2nd, I see people born here refuse to work every single day. I see immigrants fighting hard to work every single day.

I did not say otherwise, did I? I pointed out the fact that the reverse is at least equally true, a fact you don't seem to want to acknowledge.

Today's immigrants refusing to learn the language? There has always been a percentage of immigrants that will not learn English. Heck in Southern Indiana German was spoken for generations until 1917. No concern about German?

Here we go again. Take a minority or out of context example and make it the rule. Tejon, I AM German. I LIVE in southern Indiana. The family has been here for at least 150 years. Both my grandmothers are still alive and were born before 1917. I've asked them. I've read through old family journals. While Jasper and the immediate area have always had a strong German influence nobody refused to learn English except the occasional hard-head like my great grandfather. He was a rarity. He also eventually went home and he's noteworthy (to us) today only because of his refusal to assimilate.

German still exists as a second language with some people(though there's only a couple people on either side of my family that speak it with any regularity or fluency). And this remains a totally different phenomenon than current Mexican efforts to change society to fit them and their language...

Nobody went into a restaurant and found menus posted on the walls in both English and Germman back then, Tejon.

Immigrants from the Baltic States settling in Indianapolis spoke their languages and held religious service in their language and no one blinked an eye. At their festivals and community events I rarely heard English and did not see American flags but the flags of Estonia or Latvia. Should I have turned them in for sedition?

And when they went to work they spoke English. They arrived here via legal channels. Their kids learn English in school as a first language without effort to alter the curriculum. Nobody has ever tried to deny anyone the right to celebrtate their own heritage but that is a totally different subject. Why is it you won't distinguish between the two? You can't honestly expect anyone to believe you don't recognize the difference and thus the hole in your position.

In some neighborhoods in Chicago one can hear Russian or Polish being spoken in public (the gall!). No one wrings their hands over this.

Same thing again. Same tired example. So, Tejon, are they here legally? Can they speak English when they go to work? Are they coming in in numbers sufficient to alter the social and economic aspect of large areas of this nation? Then your "example" again is a bomb.

Today's hysteria is just like yesterday's hysteria.

Sorry, no. Again I simply don't see how you can expect anyone to accept your position at face value unless they already have their own reasons for agreeing with you. The "hysteria" back then was a symptom of racial bigotry, period. It infected a relatively small(vocal) number of people, though had an immigrant population come in by the millions in open defiance of our laws and refused to assimilate in bulk over decades, as opposed to your examples of specific groups of maintained culture in small localities, you can bet the "hysteria" would have infected everyone. The result would have been much more comprehensive violence than ever did arise in reality.

When I worked as a night-janitor and custodial manager at a ski area I found the above statement to be false.
The people I could get to do those jobs were hardworking, industrious, polite, and are now upstanding members of the comunity.
Right or wrong, that just the way it is. Even if it dosent fit into your particular fantasy very well 2nd A.

Thank you for strengthening my argument. El Tejon (and others) keep trying to claim Mexicans take jobs locals won't. I point out the fact that there are no jobs locals won't take, only jobs some locals won't take and likewise some Mexicans won't take. I pointed out personal examples of locals with low paying jobs, you point out examples of Mexicans taking low paying jobs, thus the stereotypical fantasy Tejon and others keep promoting is shown for what it is, meaningless.

Your poorly worded attempt at turning things around at the end notwhithstanding...

[Bwana John]

I dont know what to do about the poris border problem, I just know what the reality of it is to places experancing it. Ill bet that I had some jobs you wouldnt do fulltime, and I wouldnt do either. If I could find a "local" as you refer to do it (even the illegal had lived in that community longer) that "local" was some crack-Bi#@h that would not do the job one/tenth as well as the illigal. That was the reality of the situation, and where I developed my sterotype. It just seemed like not accnolaging that this situation does exist is living in fantasy.
I do appoligise for the poor wording and spelling.

[MichaelEzekiel]

If You feed them...they will breed. It is Unity that builds an Empire...not diversity. United We Stand...Divided We Fall

[El Tejon]

2nd, I have yet to meet an immigrant who will not work. I have met thousands of native-born who will not work.

No menus in German? You're kidding right? I went to a Russian place over the weekend. The menus were in Russian. I ordered in Russian. Why do we not see the hysteria about Russians?

Do you think all immigrants from Poland, the Baltic States and Russian came here legally? Of course not, everyday more arrive illegally but we hear nothing but crickets from the Border Guards about them. However, there is no hysteria about them. Wonder why?

Plenty here have decried the right of people to celebrate their heritage, but only a Mexican heritage. Wonder why?

Immigrants did come here in open defiance of our laws then, e.g. the Chinese. Heck, my family came here in open defiance to the Crown's law. America has a long history of defiance of immigration laws from the Declaration of Independence to the nickname of a U.S. state.

The same things said about the Chinese are now being said about Mexicans. Your right about the violence though. There was an enormous amount of widespread violence against the Chinese and the law refused to do anything about it (e.g. prevented Chinese from testifying in court, etc.).

The Chinese became productive members of the U.S. despite the violence and hatred against them (even continues today with quotas in CA). Same thing will happen with the new immigrants. :)

[Control Group]

El T: you seem to be missing - or avoiding - the key issue, here. Previous immigrant groups, legal or illegal, did not have their separatism supported or endorsed by our government and our tax money. Naturally, in a private-business based economy, if there is a notable Spanish/German/Italian/Russian/Swahili - speaking demgraphic, organizations (restaurants, churches, community centers, shooting ranges) will spring up to serve that demographic. This is neither offensive, nor unexpected, nor objectionable.

Previously, however, the idea of an illegal immigrant group successfully lobbying to have its language taught in publicly-funded institutions (which, of course, said group doesn't help fund) to the exclusion of English would have been ridiculous. The idea of extending specific benefits to illegal aliens that are not extended to legal residents of the country would have been ridiculous (see my post regarding offering lowered college tuition specifically to illegal aliens). The idea of deliberately setting up the voting system to ensure that illegal aliens could vote would have been ridiculous (as is the case in WI right now).

For most of our history, we haven't had an entrenched, comprehensive, tax-funded support system such that illegal aliens can benefit from public funding without paying anything to maintain it. You could make the case that the problem, then, is the existence of the support system, not the immigration itself, and you might even be right. But it really doesn't matter. Previously, arguments that a group was "a drain on the economy" referred primarily to the fact that a group was "taking jobs from Americans," which is only a potential loss. Now, the group in question is availing itself of significant tax funding, which is an actual loss.

The fact that you either do not recognize or do not acknowledge the difference between racial tolerance and official government imprimatur makes your argument significantly less compelling. Similar effects do not necessarily mean identical causes; the fact that objections to immigration in the past have been generally unfounded does not mean that all objections in future will be unfounded. I see no merit to the point of view that because immigrants, both legal and il-, in the past have been mistreated and mistrusted, all immigrants in the future deserve a free pass, regardless of the circumstances of their immigration.

[2nd Amendment]

2nd, I have yet to meet an immigrant who will not work. I have met thousands of native-born who will not work.

And your line of work is what???? Bud, I can introduce you to three within three blocks of my office that I personally know of. All are living with local girls and sucking up their welfare. Each has two or three kids. That's just the ones I know in my area and we don't have many immigrants here. Either you're spending way too much time at work or you really don't have any respect for my intelligence.

No menus in German? You're kidding right? I went to a Russian place over the weekend. The menus were in Russian. I ordered in Russian. Why do we not see the hysteria about Russians?

Well, let me see...gimme a sec...uhhh...because it was a Russian restaurant? Again, same thing: Take a narrow and specific example and try to give it some broader meaning. So, when was the last McDonalds you found a Russian menu in? How many little cafe's you think had German menus at the turn of the last century? The German ones? :rolleyes:

Do you think all immigrants from Poland, the Baltic States and Russian came here legally?

The vast bulk of them, yes. And those who did not, if the goobermint found them, went back where they came fraom. Are you seriously trying to compare the small minority of Poles, etc who got here illegally to the multiplied millions(10, 12, more?) of mexicans who come here and are by and large knowingly allowed to stay?

Of course not, everyday more arrive illegally but we hear nothing but crickets from the Border Guards about them. However, there is no hysteria about them. Wonder why?

A)Because their numbers are miniscule.

B)Who would notice among all the damn Mexicans.

Plenty here have decried the right of people to celebrate their heritage, but only a Mexican heritage. Wonder why?

Hmm, now this is your most blatant misrepresentation yet. I hesitate to call it an outright lie but damn, bud, it's close. In point of fact we have repeatedly said that we do not have a problem with people celebrating their heritage. We have cited YOUR examples of people celebrating heritage as opposed to what is currently going on with Illegal Mexicans. So why would you say something like this? You don't think everyone is really dumb enough to let it slide? or are you playing Devils Advocate thru all this and tipping your hand only now?

Immigrants did come here in open defiance of our laws then, e.g. the Chinese. Heck, my family came here in open defiance to the Crown's law. America has a long history of defiance of immigration laws from the Declaration of Independence to the nickname of a U.S. state.

And it's been explained to you in fine detail what the differences and motivations and legal aspects are today vs "then". Why is it so many people will try to insist that today is yesterday on the immigration issue and then insist it's some "new age" on so many others. Immigration is probably one of the most altered issues today as opposed to our past of any issue on the table.

The same things said about the Chinese are now being said about Mexicans...etc, etc, etc...

You keep making this same general claim and people keep refuting it. The violence against the Chinese and the Irish(another immigrant group I can claim some knowledge of) stemmed from bigotry. Those people came to the US for better lives. They met with largely unfounded racial and religious hatred. They assimilated anyway and while leaving certain small cores like your oft-mentioned China Towns they became Americans.

Today's illegal mexicans are meeting with concerns about their illegal status, their lack of drivers licenses, their manipulation of our welfare state, their failure to pay taxes and the sheer numbers, among many other issues. Your apparent effort to attach bigotry to every legitimate concern just doesn't fly. Sorry. Like your effort to claim these invaders have the same motivations and intentions as past immigrants it's wrong and you can't support it without misrepresenting past examples.

*EDIT: I need coffee, spelling and punctuation errors are a factor of a lack of coffee. After coffee IV we'll consider fixing this mess. EDIT*

[The Rabbi]

It's all about cheap labor for the wealthy..

If its about anything its certainly not about that. But that sounds a lot better than protecting jobs for Americans too stupid or lazy to work.

[El Tejon]

2nd, my work is defending the completely innocent. :D Welfare cheats? How shocking! :D Like I said the problem is us, the Welfare State. However, I can show you many dozens of welfare cheats who are native-born within the same radius of my office.

Last Mickey D's with a Russian menu? Chicago I am told. But am at disadvantage since I don't eat there. However, last I knew McDonald's is private company catering to their customers. See nothing de jure about that. Why wouldn't a company cater to its customers?

My point with the illegal aliens from nations other than Mexico is that no one cares about them even though they are here illegally. I believe this raises a credibility/motive issue, not treating like cases alike and all.

You don't remember the flap on THR about the Mexican flag in the Red classroom? Plenty of other times people here have yelled about Mexican heritage. I raise it because I believe it demonstrates motive: no one complains about the German sparrow on front license plates or flying the Dutch flag, but plenty of complaints about Mexican emblems.

I see no difference between the motives of today's immigrants from yesterday's. However, that is based on my own experience in this field. I'll see if I can find a poll or something.

I empathize with your coffee situation. Another reason to have an office directly over one! :D

[Henry Bowman]

My point with the illegal aliens from nations other than Mexico is that no one cares about them even though they are here illegally. I get your point and, in general, you are correct. But I'd guess that there is still (post 9-11) a fair level of concern about illegals from the MidEast.

[Glock Glockler]

Tejon,

I know many immigrants who work very hard and some that don't work at all, I don't think that's the main issue. Someone might very well work hard but what govt bennies are they otherwise draining?

An illegal alien might work for 15k/yr in a very tough job, in which case you would laim he is helping the American economy by doing the jobs us stupid lazy Americans don't want to do, but if his 4 children are also in the local govt school, how much does that cost us?

How much does his family's medical care cost that the taxpayer has to pick up? Did they go to the ER because they all know they wont be turned away? Is he on welfare as well?

I knew many Central Americans that worked very hard at a factory I was at but they also tapped into each and every govt program they possibly could and I would say their net economic effect was a negative.

[El Tejon]

Glock, and who created the Welfare State? Illegal aliens? Space aliens? Bears and pumas? Or American citizens?

Isn't it true that we have met the enemy and he is us. ;)

Isn't the fight with the Welfare State and not the immigrant? :confused:

[Glock Glockler]

Tejon,

Unfortunately it is both us and the immigrants who are creating the welfare state as both vote for it, and I do know of many illegals voting.

The fight is ultimately against the welfare state but the problem is that many in govt want to import voters who will support their programs, so if an immigrant votes for the welfare state your fight is with him. You might not like the welfare state but we have to realize that it does exist, and if an immigrant is getting hooked up with it then you have just strengthened the problem. You neednt look farther than California to see what happens when the immigrants vote for the welfare state.

What is important is the immigrant's net economic effect and whether he will aid in repealing the welfare state.

[El Tejon]

Glock, so, a cost/benefit analysis of each immigrant? If they aren't in the positive by a certain factor, back they go?

A probation period for citizenship in order for them to produce? Can we get your great idea applied to the native born? :D

[Sawdust]

Works for me.

Sawdust

[Glock Glockler]

Tejon,

I would very much like to see new arrivals prohibited from any doles but that will not happen. Look at what happened in California after their proposition 187, the backlash against the Republicans who supported it was huge, the Democrats then made huge gains and promised even more doles.

I would like to see all doles removed, that might begin to happen but it will not if we import hordes of new immigrants who vote to keep the dole open.

Given the current demographic/economic situation I think all prospective immigrants should have to pass our cost/benefit analysis they can't come in.

Ultimately this problem springs from voting standards being too lax in general but that discussion is for another thread. I wish that a production standard would be applied for citizenship but citizenship doesnt mean anything anymore, anyone can vote in the USA.

[gc70]

<sarcasm on>
Gosh, El Tejon, I feel so sorry for all of the poor Mexicans who are victims of being lured to the US by the nasty welfare state.
</sarcasm off>

(drumroll) And the Number One Reason current Mexican immigrants are different from immigrant groups in the past...

They send so much money home.
That's right, immigrants in the past were in the US to stay - and most of their money stayed here, too.

Whether current Mexican immigrants plan to stay in the US or not, they are clearly sending a lot of money "home" to Mexico.

According to the [Mexican] central bank, remittances, mainly from Mexicans working in America, totalled US$16.6b in 2004, which represents a doubling since 2000 and a 24% jump from 2003. This money flow now constitutes about 2% of [Mexican] GDP.For those keeping score, that means that money sent "home" from the US is pretty much Mexico's largest "industry."

[The Rabbi]

That's right, immigrants in the past were in the US to stay - and most of their money stayed here, too.

That is an utter and complete stinking pile. When my great grandfather came from Lithuania he dutifully sent money home to his parents. His siblings did likewise. All immigrants do so. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are awash in Pakistani, Indonesian, and Phillipino laborers. All of them send money home. No one sees that as a crisis. You'll have to do better than that.

[Art Eatman]

Well, we've wandered way off topic of the thread, which itself is a variant of umpteen iterations on the general subject of illegal immigrants.

Guns? Gunlaws? Civil rights? THR?

Enuf.

:), Art