[thereisnospoon]

I recently started reloading "more seriously", meaning I am trying to build specific loads for specific rifles to achieve ultimate accuracy, as I am now shooting longer distance and every MOA counts.

In the past I would just put together some rounds and run to the range, expecting miracles from my "handloads" only to be disappointed and wonder what all the fuss was about. Anyway, I have learned that handloading is more than just sticking powder in a case and sticking a bullet on top.

Now to the point: Is neck sizing always an improvement or is it a case by case ( :uhoh: er, I mean rifle by rifle) scenario?

Here's why I ask; about a month ago I purchased a new Savage rifle in .308, very nice. Expecting great things I carefully built 20 rounds using my handy, dandy Lee press. 5 diferent loads, moly-coated BTHPs, nickel cases. Very sweet looking.

At the range, I sighted in the rifle using factory stuff and was pleasantly surpised by the rifles accuracy, etc. No muss, no fuss. Then I moved to the handloads for groups. The pretty little rounds would barely chamber or at least were very hard to chamber. I was concerned, but both my father-in-law and brother-in-law (who are avid reloaders) convinced me safety was not an issue. :(

Three shots later I was elated...cloverleaf, baby. So I continued on with similar results, hard to load, sweet to shoot.

After discussiong the issue with in-laws, we decided my dies weren't set right and sure enough that was the problem...the dies were not screwed in far enough. So, I fixed that problem and every round since has chambered perfectly.

The only problem now is that the groups have opened up considerably with the same loads. Does this mean I need to try neck sizing or does it mean I just need to back the die out a little again, somewhere between "hard to chamber" and "great groups"?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[caz223]

From what I've seen, properly set up neck size only dies will result in more accurate ammo if the bullets fired reliably in a rifle, and were neck sized, then fired in the same rifle. (Provided the chamber is clean, etc.)
As always, the bullet is the largest contributor to accuracy, if the rifle don't like the bullet, all the neck sizing in the world won't save it.

The problem is, you get another rifle in that caliber, and the chambers are slightly different, you have to either full length resize, or seperate your brass.
I guess that's what headstamps are for.....

[Smokey Joe]

Thereisnospoon--Have you done some basic homework on sizing and dies? By this I mean have you read up on them?

I don't wish to sound like a putdown. May I suggest an excellent book on all aspects of reloading, The ABC's of Reloading available from Krause Publishing, www.krause.com or a gun shop or a gun show. Don't let the title throw you; it is a discussion of the subject from the very basic to the very esoteric.

Frankly I suggest that there are too many possibilities for your problems with dies to be analyzed accurately over the I'net. Just real quickly, I can think of 2 or 3 things that might or MIGHT NOT be the problem. Glad you got the cloverleaf in the paper--that's one of the real payoffs to reloading! :)

[steveno]

my personal opinion is that you would have to shoot a LOT of rounds to really prove if there is a clear winner between neck sizing and full length sizing. you might be able to prove it with a bench rifle but not in a hunting rifle. I only reason to neck size the 270 and 22-250 loads is not having to lube the cases. I just lube the inside of the neck once in a while for the sizing plug. if you are going to use the same brass in two different rifles you will probably have to full length size

[P0832177]

First off where did the brass your built the handloads with come from? Next, dump the nickel plated brass. It will flake off and possibly imbed itself into the die wall. Thus, it will scratch your cases that are subsquently sized!

Okay now the next item is to decide if your die was set up right? Once again go back to the drawing board. Follow the directions of the Mfg. Then after you sized those cases were they less then 2.015"

I like Redding Deluxe Die sets. They come with FL and Neck Sizer dies and a regular seater. The next thing if you get the Redding dies is to buy the the carbide expander ball and use it. This will reduce case stretching and works great in conjunction with Imperial Die Wax to size cases.

Anytime you have a hard time chambering a round, that ought to tip you off that something is amiss. If say the case was too long, the hard chambering could in theory cause the case neck to crimp the bullet and cause a spike in the pressure upon firing! NOT A GOOD IDEA!

Everyone has made screw ups! That is what kninetic bullet pullers are for! LOL BTDT more then once!

Reloading is great fun!

Enjoy your new gun!

[Vern Humphrey]

There are two advantages to neck-sizing only. The first is that with reasonable loads, you get more shots from the same case, because you don't work the brass so much.

With full-length resizing, you will have to trim the cases -- and the brass you cut off has to come from somewhere. Where it comes from is just ahead of the web (the thick part at the bottom of the case.) After a trim or two, you'll find incipient head separations. When that happens, it's best to toss the whole lot of brass.

The second advantage is with cases where there is a disparity between case and chamber dimensions. Belted magnums are an example here -- they will often "grow" noticeably on the first firing because they headspace on the belt. The trick is to neck size them so they headspace on the shoulder from then on. You'll get longer case life and usually better accuracy.

The .22 Hornet is a special case -- it needs to be sized in something like the Lee Collet die because it's such a bad fit in the case.

When neck sizing, be aware that the force of sizing is transmitted from the ram, through the head, through the case walls to the neck. It is possible to bulge case walls enough with neck sizing (in a full-length sizing die) so they won't go back into the chamber they came out of.

Also, as you lower the case from the die, the expander is dragged backward through the case neck. Again, the case walls take the strain, and you can actually stretch the case, moving the shoulder forward this way.

The solution is good lubrication -- external to prevent case bulging, and internal to prevent expander drag. A lot of people like to use something like motor mica on the case mouth to lube the inside of the neck.

[flashhole]

When you fire a round the brass "fire forms" to the inside dimensions of your chamber. Case body, shoulder, and neck, are in alignment with the bore as a result of the firing.

Full length resizing will "move" a substantial portion of the brass to conform to the inside dimension of your die which may or may not match the chamber on your gun. It puts the brass back into conformance with SAMMI standards (or at least as close as your die will reform it). There is almost always extra room in the chamber because the gun manufacturer will cut the chamber larger than the SAMMI standard that's why factory ammow will always fit in your gun. Full length resizing emulates factory ammo case size.

Neck sizing the brass will maintain the case and shoulder forming of fire formed brass and just "move" the neck portion of the case. The case is better fit to the chamber as a result of firing it in your gun. It "head spaces" on the shoulder as it rests in the barrel chamber. You have to be mindful when resizing just the neck on a number of fronts. First, if you neck size, check to see if the neck-sized cartridge fits in your gun. Just cycle it through the action. I like mine to be a tight fit. Second, there are different kinds of neck dies and they are not perfect. You can move the neck dimensions off center or distort them in an uneven manner, especially with dies that pull an expander ball up through the neck after shrinking the neck. Uneven tension here can cause increased case size and runout (the bullet not being in perfect alignment with the center line of the case or the bore of the gun). Runout casuses inaccuracy, if the case is stretch during neck sizing it may be difficult to chamber. I like to use a carbide expander ball or a collet type neck die that does not use the expander ball.

A good seating die is highly desireable to minimize runout. It keeps the bullet in proper relation to the case neck. Getting the proper seating depth of the bullet in relation to the lands of the barrel is a huge contributor to accuracy. I keep mine within .005", this greatly reduces the "jump" distance by reducing free bore. This generally causes me to use long-for-cartridge/weight bullets (ballistic tips and hollow points, or longer heavier bullets) so I can seat them out further towards the lands. What you have to watch here is the manufactured ammo will not be so long that it won't, load in ,and cycle through, your magazine. Again, try one before you load a whole batch. If its too long seat it deeper.

The type and amount of powder will also influence accuracy. Some combinations are awful while others are a match made in heaven. This is mostly hit and miss to find the right combination. I favor slow powders. I have reject containers of powder sitting on the shelf waiting for a suitable cartridge so it will be used.

I agree, $#!+ can the nickel plated brass. It's pretty but causes problems.

Just keep at it. There is a lot to learn but it's fun.

[bogie]

Here's what I'd do...

You need to figure how to minimally FL resize - this can be a little difficult with a Savage tho, due to construction of the bolt.

Take a fired case. Chamber it. Kinda hard, right?

Now, screw your die out a couple of turns, lube the case, and size it. Still chambers hard? Screw the die in about 1/8 turn, size it again. Test in chamber. Repeat until it chambers easier. BTW, before you do this, throw away that rubber insert lock nut that came with your Lee dies, and put a locking one on. Lock the thing down, and you're good to go.

Now, are you concerned about rounds feeding from your magazine? If so, load to the max length that works. If you're okay with a single shot, in your unprimed and sized case, with no powder, seat a bullet long. Now buff it up with some steel wool. Chamber it, and slowly open the bolt. Hopefully the bullet will come out with the case, or you can tap it out with your cleaning rod. You really want it to come out with the case - This gives you your distance to the lands, and the steel wooled bullet lets you see how much engagement you have on the lands. I'd start at about 0.003" from the lands, and move out.

Take 18 pieces of brass, load three foulers, then load three with your start load, three with start + 0.5 grains, etc., etc., until you've got a five-load spread. Say (and this is NOT a real measurement, do don't use it), 39, 39.5, 40, 40.5 and 41 grains of powder.

What kind of powder and bullets are you using? I like 4895. You also want to use quality bullets.

[Clark]

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/393addf6ff07e0ad/58b2c940c89821dd

Bart Bobbit Feb 19 2004, 10:20 pm
------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding bolt gunners neck sizing their cases, consider the following
for what it's worth.

In highpower competition, the best scores are shot with full-length
sized cases. And the best accuracy tests have been shot with
full-length sized cases. New cases typically shoot more accurately
than neck-sized cases.

In benchrest competition, the best scores are shot with neck-sized
cases. Sometimes, a tight-neck chamber is used and the cases aren't
sized at all; just reprimed, recharged and a bullet slipped into the
neck that's still tight enough to hold it.

The difference in these two disciplines' cases is unique. Benchrest
cases are usually zero-tolerance in body wall thickness. Highpower
cases are not as uniform and usually vary a few thousandths in body
wall thickness. Most interesting is that beyond 300 yards, bolt
action box magazine highpower match rifles in calibers larger than 25
shoot more accurately with full-length sized cases than bolt action
single-shot benchrest rifles shoot calibers smaller than 25 with
neck-sized cases. At ranges less than 300 yards, they're equal.

Most folks neck size bottle neck cases for their factory rifles for
one or both of these two reasons. . . .

One is they think the case will then be a perfect fit in the chamber.
Well, chamber's aren't perfectly round. And custom chambers are more
round than factory chambers. The smaller diameter the chamber, the
more round it will be. Benchrest cases are very round after firing in
their custom chambers. All the other fired cases are not perfectly
round even if they've been fired in perfectly round chambers because
their body walls aren't uniformly thick. Cases fired in rifles with
out of square bolt faces can easily have a few thousandths variance in
headspace fit when rechambered regardless of how they were resized.

The other is they get longer case life than their full-length sizing
process gives. When this happens, the die is usually screwed too far
down and the case shoulder gets set back too far which promotes head
separation and short case life. If they backed the die out a bit and
set the shoulder back no more than two thousandths from its fired
position, long case life will happen.

-----------------------------------------------------------

[444]

If you want to expand on what Clark has posted in a big way, let me recommend a book to you:

http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html

Don't get hung up on the thought that you are not shooting in competition or that you are not shooting a semiauto rifle. There is a ton to learn anyway.

[bogie]

Clark, that's old...

Benchresters full-length size now - Granted, we use custom dies (I've got a Harrell and a Carstensen), and we're really not squeezing the bejeezus out of the brass. Basically, we pull the firing pin from the bolt, and then find the spot where we're just "bumping" it enough that you can feel a tad bit of resistance in the bolt. Too much, and it slows you down at the line, and your rifle is disturbed in the bags, and too little, and the rounds chamber real easy, but you're more likely to have a case head separation.

Both dies I use take Redding-style neck sizing bushings, so that neck tension can be varied, but they also size the body.

The 6mm BR is popular with the 600 yard crowd, but out beyond that, it's time the .30. Saw Dave Tooley at the Supershoot, and he was wandering around showing folks a couple of 1K groups shot with some of Brady Knight's new .30s and a BooBoo...

I'd also recommend...

The Precision Shooting Reloading Guide
By: Precision Shooting Columnists - Edited by: Dave Brennan
Price: $22.95 (6 x 9" 3 Spiral Bound - 284 pages)
A reloading manual like no other, now in its forth printing. Chapters authored by champion shooters on: Reloading for Extreme Accuracy, Highpower (Bolt Guns), Highpower (Gas Guns), Benchrest, Magnums, Wildcats, Cast Bullets, and working up an accuracy load. NOTE tells how to reload; does not give loads for individual cartridges.

www.precisionshooting.com

[rbernie]

The other is they get longer case life than their full-length sizing process gives. When this happens, the die is usually screwed too far down and the case shoulder gets set back too far which promotes head separation and short case life. This may be true in general, but is not necessarily the case (no pun intended) when dealing with older rifles. Many older rifles, especially MilSurps such as the Lee Enfield, have very loose chambers. Full-length sizing will work the brass so much that they'll commonly show cracking above the case head in as few as three firings. Neck-sizing only for these rifles can extend the life of the case by several orders of magnitude, by only working the area of the case that *needs* to be resized.

I can get eight to ten reloads from a 303R case when I neck size, but I will get case cracking just above the head after three reloads when I full-length resize.

[Vern Humphrey]

This may be true in general, but is not necessarily the case (no pun intended) when dealing with older rifles. Many older rifles, especially MilSurps such as the Lee Enfield, have very loose chambers. Full-length sizing will work the brass so much that they'll commonly show cracking above the case head in as few as three firings. Neck-sizing only for these rifles can extend the life of the case by several orders of magnitude, by only working the area of the case that *needs* to be resized.


I have a Model 1905 Ross. This straight-pull Canadian rifle didn't shine in the trenches in WWI. In an attempt to make them more reliable under those conditions, the chambers were "hogged out" - bored deeper so crud and mud would be shoved ahead of the case.

A fired case from this rifle looks like a .303 Epps, and the only way to resize is with a Lee Collet Die, adjusted by placing washers on the shell holder, so the collet only closes on the actual neck remaining after fireing.

[bogie]

Don't know if I got this across - I _rarely_ have a FL die that contacts the shell holder. I start with 'em screwed out, and screw them in little by little until they just barely bump the case back.

Doing this, one can get upwards of 20 very high pressure loadings (benchresters tend to somewhat ignore SAAMI guidelines...), to the point where the primer pocket tension (or lack thereof...) is the deciding factor in keeping or tossing the brass.

[308win]

Excellent thread! About the time I start to think I understand what I am doing I get humbled again. Thanks for the info and cites, now I have a list for Father's Day.

[1911 guy]

A lot depends on the rifle, too. For all the science in shooting and reloading, there is still a lot of voodoo. I've got a rifle that likes full lenght sizing (neck sizing makes horrible groups) and another rifle that demands to be neck sized only for MOA groups. Maybe your rifle is one of the former. Interestingly enough, the neck sizer in my cabinet is a Savage. The full length gun is my varmint rifle. Go figure.

[Dave R]

In my experience to date, I don't see a noticeable difference in accuracy between neck sized and full length sized rounds. I neck size my .17 wildcat rounds because the brass is hard to get or make. I want it to last as long as possible. That rifle shoots sub-MOA.

I neck size my .223 and .308 rounds because I heard I would get better accuracy. I made the switch while developing loads, so I don't know if the neck sizing makes a difference or if it was just finding the right loads. The NEF .223 shoots sub-MOA and the Rem700 shoots right about MOA.

I read that the K-31 requires full-length resizing in order to chamber reliably, so that's what I do. I have been getting about 1.5MOA with it. But that could be the limitation of the cheap scout scope and mount. I just shot one group will all rounds touching. Last group of my last range session with it.

[Vern Humphrey]

In my experience to date, I don't see a noticeable difference in accuracy between neck sized and full length sized rounds.

Neck sizing isn't as simple as some would have you believe. You can have worse accuracy with neck sizing, especially when doing it by backing off a full-length sizing die.

As I said earlier;

When neck sizing, be aware that the force of sizing is transmitted from the ram, through the head, through the case walls to the neck. It is possible to bulge case walls enough with neck sizing (in a full-length sizing die) so they won't go back into the chamber they came out of.

Also, as you lower the case from the die, the expander is dragged backward through the case neck. Again, the case walls take the strain, and you can actually stretch the case, moving the shoulder forward this way.

[flashhole]

Let's see if this picture comes through.

This is a 6-shot group from a load I was working up last week for my Ruger #1V in 25-06. The distance was 200 yards. Nosler 100 grain ballistic tip over a full case of Retumbo powder and CCI 200 primers. This is as good as I can hold using a bag as a rest and the sling on the gun to steady the shot. I always use the sling. I won't have the bag in the field but I will always have the sling on the gun. I had about a half a dozen similar groups. The cases are a snug fit in the chamber and the brass was neck sized only (for the 5th time) using a Lee Collet Neck Die. I use a Forster Ultraseat Seat Die and a mild crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Group 1

Looks like I figured out how to post a picture.

[flashhole]

Here's another 6-shot group at 200 yards. This is a different powder with a different point of impact but still a good group.

Group 2

Here's the rig. My Wally World special. It sports a Zeiss 4-14 X 44mm Conquest scope.

#1 Right

[308win]

Nice groups, look like they are just at or just over 1/2MOA.