[Dannyboy]

At the end of WWII the Waffen SS, as a part of the SS was branded a criminal organization. This basically made every one of them indictable criminals regardless of whether or not they were involved in any of the associated atrocities. The Republican Guard is apparently Saddam's favorite tool when it comes to killing his own people. Does anyone see something similar to Nurnburg (large-scale war crime trials) happening this time?


edit:
I'm comparing them as military organizations and not political ones.

[D_Burchfield]

Personally, I don't think that scenario will play out. Large scale trials like Nuremburg would require a consensus of opinion in the United Nations :scrutiny: . Logistics would create other problems(arrest and incarceration of thousands of soldiers). There may be some arrests and trials of top officials in Saddam's regime, but that falls under the jusisdiction of The World Court at the Hague in Belgium. IMHO, it would seem more likely that the blueprint created after the Balkan Conflict would be followed.

Just my $.02 worth

Regards

Doug

[Hkmp5sd]

The Waffen SS did participate in war crimes. Over the years, they have attempted to pass themselves off as merely soldiers in SS uniforms. While some did perform only as soldiers, many did not.

The difference between them and the RG is the scope of what they did. The SS operated across the entire European continent and dealt with many nationalities in the process. The RG has only operated inside Iraq (except for Iran war and Kuwait war which they seem to have gotten away with).

Other than possibly some high ranking officers, I doubt most of them will be bothered. Killing your own civilians doesn't count as an international war crime. Perhaps the new government will look into their actions, but I think most Iraqis will simply want to forget Saddam's regime and go forward.

[GinSlinger]

Maybe a better example than the Waffen SS (who thook the lightening bolts off my computer?) would be the Khmer Rouge. Though the KR murdered many of its own citizens, only the political leaders and the very highest military leaders were tracked, arrested and tried. IIRC that too was an international effort.

GinSlinger

[cheygriz]

Unfortunately, war crimes trials today are meaningless, since the U.N. won't allow us to hang them.

OTOH, we are standing up to the U.N.'s foolishness about the invasion. Perhaps, when the time comes, we will have the backbone to stand up to them again and hang a bunch of Iraqi thugs.

We can always hope!

[M1911]

From what I understand, the units to be more concerned about than the Republican Guard is the Special Republican Guard.

[dinosaur]

It`s the special Democratic Guard in D.C. that worries me.:banghead:

[cordex]

From what I understand, the units to be more concerned about than the Republican Guard is the Special Republican Guard.
Are they anything like the really Special Forces? Deployed in short school busses and everything?

(I kid, I kid!)

[Blackhawk]

GinSlinger nailed it.

[CWL]

GinSlinger,

I am well travelled in Cambodia.

Only one member of the Khmer Rouge leadership has ever been arrested. His name is Ta Mok and he is living comfortably under house arrest. While there is recent momentum to finally try him, there is greater fear that putting him on trial will restart the fighting in Cambodia (which finally ended in 1998).

The other (former) Khmer Rouge leaders are living a life of luxury in their provincial estates/territories, their money came from raping the country of it's precious jewels and deforesting the countryside of it's teak and mahogany woods.

[telewinz]

I think their will be war crime hearings for the crimes committed before our invasion, not just the crimes that WILL be committed after.

[ahadams]

but before anyone passes a blanket judgement on the waffen ss, they might want to read a book called The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer. He was a grunt on the eastern front...he presents a rather unique perspective on WWII, to say the least.

[Bahadur]

but before anyone passes a blanket judgement on the waffen ss, they might want to read a book called The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer. He was a grunt on the eastern front...he presents a rather unique perspective on WWII, to say the least.Aside from the organized mass murder known as the Holocaust, both Waffen-SS and das Heer (Army) units participated in countless atrocities of murdering civilians, rapes, looting and so forth (recorded in military records as "anti-partisan operations"), particularly in the Eastern Front.

It's an interesting blame-shift game. Army says that "only" SS comitted war crimes. Waffen-SS says that only non-"Waffen" or non-military SS committed war crimes and that they were just elite soldiers. The reality is that all strata of German military, civil, industrial, political and law enforcement organs of the state participated in horrific crimes against the rules of war.

As for the Iraqi Republican Guards or any other Saddam loyalist, no international "war crimes" trials are necessary. The new Iraqi government will no doubt prosecute the responsible for crimes against the people of Iraq...

[Dannyboy]

The reality is that all strata of German military, civil, industrial, political and law enforcement organs of the state participated in horrific crimes against the rules of war.

Yup. But at the same time, you can't just throw every single person involved in these organizations into the category of war criminal. For example, we know what happened at My Lai(sp?) in Vietnam but we also know that not every GI was involved. Lumping everyone in one category is like saying that every Russian was a communist. Which isn't true.

Guy Sajer, along with many others gave a good idea of what happened on the Eastern Front. A good book written by a Waffen SS soldier was Black Edelweiss . Very good book.

[GinSlinger]

Just a quick Google search yielded:
Both of these archives are central to any assessment of the crimes committed by the Khmer Rouge leadership, particularly Kang Kech Iev, alias Duch, the chief of Tuol Sleng, as well as Mok, the notorious military commander, both of whom are in custody and awaiting trial in Phnom Penh. Other living Khmer Rouge leaders include: Nuon Chea, former President of Democratic Kampuchea’s (DK) People’s Representative Assembly; Ieng Sary, former DK Deputy Prime Minister for Foreign Affairs; Ke Pauk, former Secretary of the Northern Zone of the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK); and Khieu Samphan, former President of the DK State Presidium.
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~asiactr/haq/200001/0001a009.htm

The arrest of a former Khmer Rouge commander has renewed hopes that a war crimes tribunal will be established in Cambodia. General Sam Bith appeared in court on Thursday to answer charges related to the killing of three western backpackers in 1994
--AND--
Khmer Rouge military commander Ta Mok is already in jail, as is Kaing Kek Ieu, better known as "Duch", the commandant of the group's infamous S-21 torture camp. The pair have spent more than three years in prison awaiting the formation of a war crimes court to try them.
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/cam020523.html

The Khmer Rouge commander of Vine Mountain, Nuon Paet, was jailed for life in June last year for his role in the affair.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2001628.stm

et al.

Not Saying that justice has been swift, or far enough reaching, but there has been some movement. Thats part of my argument. "War crimes" in Cambodia are being handled internally which is what I think will happen in Iraq. The new regieme will incorporate most of the lower level thugs, and only "management" will be brought before a court.

GinSlinger

[Dannyboy]

FWIW, I just heard a guy from Foxnews in Kuwait say that they are expecting large-scale military tribunals after the war. At the time, he was talking about the "Dirty Dozen" of Iraqi leaders so I don't know if military leaders will be included. Although, there is new film out now that supposedly includes the sounds of Republican Guardsmen firing into a crowd of Kuwaiti women during the 1st Gulf War. I guess it's all speculation right now but who knows.

[Waitone]

Iraqi's know who committed atrocities on whom.

I consider it bad form to let a World Court or a UN tribunal to claim jurisdiction over Sadaam and his goons. No, this is a problem best handled by Iraqi's. Let the interim government deal with the problem. My guess is they would be less inclined to play games than would other entities. I also have a feeling the desire or demand for retribution will be quite high. I hope the US and coalition are smart enough to let accounts be settled. Every country which has been liberated has gone through the same thing.

Its ugly, but human nature is human nature.

[Hkmp5sd]

It wouldn't hurt to let Kuwait have some of the goons that played an active part in the crimes committed in their country.

[CWL]

GinSlinger,
Don't believe everything that you read.

Here's a photo I took of Ta Mok's house. He was the third in charge of the Khmer Rouge after Pol Pot and Ieng Sary.

While not up to American standards, it is made out of solid teak logs, each one worth tens of thousands of dollars. It sits next to a scenic waterway, which happens to hold a tigercage. This was the tigercage that the last UN head of mine clearance was captured and killed in back in 1998. -It is only from UN pressure for this killing that Ta Mok is under "house arrest".

I couldn't get to Ieng Sary's house but I did get his signature.

Duch was just "middle management".

The real perpetrators of genocide are alive and fine living in the provinces of Aung Lung Veng and Pailin in Cambodia. they still control their own armies although they no longer call themselves Angkar (Khmer Rouge).

[Tommy Gunn]

I doubt the actual war criminals will be taken prisoner. The war criminals are usually murderous fanatics and will go down fighting.