M1 Benelli malfunction?


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bill2
June 6, 2005, 07:22 PM
I have a Benelli M1 tactical 12 ga that I use for 3 gun competition and home defense. I just bought a few things to help in the 3 gun shoots, one of them being a velcro shell holder that goes on the left hand side of the receiver (using gloue on one of side of the velcro with a small hole cut out for the pin. the other side is the velcro that in turn lets you attach an 8 shot shell carrier to the receiver. It also has a velcro strap that goes around the shotgun just in front of the receiver. Did I describe this clearly enough? Nothing internal is affected. yesterday during the competion, I had 4 double O buck and 4 slugs in the loops on the shell carrier. The first part of the competition involved shooting a combination of bird shot, # 7 1/2 shot, and double O buck about 12 rounds in all. I didn't use an of the shells out of the shell carrier but almost every shot malfunctioned, with the slide stopping about 2/3 of the way from closing up and chambering the next round. I racked the slide back and let it fall forward which chambered the next round and I could fire it. At which time it happened again, most but not all of the time. Later in the match I unloaded the shell carrier and it functioned flawlessly like it usually does. So what happened? I bought this model that is made expressly for the M1 so I'm sure that other people own it.

By the way I clean it after each time I shoot it, but don't break it completely down, i.e., I leave the barrel in the receiver and clean the barrel and spray in cleaner into the receiver and then wipe everything down.

Any suggestions from you Benelli experts?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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Moonclips
June 6, 2005, 07:56 PM
The M1 is inertia-driven, isn't it?

Just read this excerpt from the Benelli site about their new M4:
"...When the U.S Marine Corps went shopping for a combat shotgun they bought a Benelli.

The super dependable Inertia Driven™ system was a natural choice, but to fully equip a combat shotgun with night-vision scopes and other specialized equipment would add a lot of weight and could compromise the Inertia Driven™ system. To ensure reliability, Benelli engineers developed the ARGO system..."

The above makes me think the inertia-driven system may fail if not under ideal conditions.

hksw
June 6, 2005, 08:04 PM
The M1 Super90 is an inertia recoil action. The details of how this works, you can get at Benelli's (http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/inertia.tpl) website.

In short, for the action to work properly, the gun has to move backwards sharply. When you add all of those other accutrements to the gun (including the ammo in the side saddle), you add weight to the gun overall. This larger mass moves slower than if the gun was unincumbered. (For a given fixed specific force applied to a mass, the larger the mass, the less the resulting velocity.) The slower reward gun movement is not enough to work the action of the bolt.

Mxyzpltk
June 6, 2005, 08:18 PM
Yes, more weight is known to cause malfunction in the intertia driven shotguns, as a workaround you could use an arm shell carrier like the one from 3gungear.com instead of the one in the reciever, or if you don't like that a dump pouch.

bill2
June 6, 2005, 08:26 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I bought the shell carrier at 3gungear.com specifically for the Benelli so I thought that it would work. But it looks like it's back to the drawing board for solutions for carrying shells. I have the dump pouch and the belt strip that holds5 shells.

BillL223
June 8, 2005, 08:24 PM
I use the 3-Gun Gear side saddle with no problems. Now shooting Limited, I have an 8 round tube plus a 3-gun Gear two round carrier near the ejection port. I have no function issues however, several years ago I installed a "light Load" recoil spring. Also, Grams Engineering and Benny Hill do a mod to lighten the bolt which seems to help. I haven't done this. You might do a search on the Brian Enos forum under shotgun technical discussions. In my opinion, the key to making Benellis run 100% is to use not less then 1-1/8 oz. charge weight and 3 dram equivalent powder charge. This is about 1250 fps. Avoid low recoil slugs and Buckshot.

bill2
June 8, 2005, 08:32 PM
BillL223:

Thanks for all the info. Who is Brian Enos? A competitive shooter? and there really is a guy named Benny Hill who works on shotguns? I assume this is a different Benny Hill than the English comedian. Speaking of light loads, most of the buckshot I buy has been 9 pellet double O buck light loads. I haven't seen much else.
Is there anyone out there who has installed the shell carrier on the receiver of their Benelli M1 and had success?

Thanks again to everyone who has responded.

kbheiner7
June 8, 2005, 08:49 PM
I'm very surprised you got an M1 Benelli to malfunction. I swear by these guns - they're absolutely bullet proof (in my experience anyway).

bill2
June 8, 2005, 09:00 PM
I'm very surprised you got an M1 Benelli to malfunction. I swear by these guns - they're absolutely bullet proof (in my experience anyway).
__________________________________________________

you're right Benellis normally are. This is the first time that this has happened, which is what leads me to suspect that it is the shell carrier since I just put it on.

Jack2427
June 9, 2005, 04:25 AM
I have 2 Berettas (1200P and 1201FP) which are recoil driven actions similiar to the Benelli, they are sensitive to weight on the receiver as in a saddle, but function quite well with butt cuffs. Most short recoil actions will respond negatively to substantial weight added at and around the receiver area. Weight there just seems to cause more problems than far back on the stock, the reason? I'm not sure, maybe someone can advise?

1911 guy
June 9, 2005, 10:29 AM
to quote a previous poster, Moonclips, I believe, "The above leads me to believe the inertia driven system may fail if not under ideal conditions". True. They are excellent shotguns for anything a hunter or trap shooter will require of them, but I have shied away from recommending a variety of autoloaders for defence due to this. As it is a fairly reliable system under normal use it is being copied and I don't want to feel responsible for a failure under bad conditions. As I've said before on a different thread, my neighbor can malfunction his Benelli at will. Great shottie, but not for SHTF use.

45crittergitter
June 10, 2005, 01:40 PM
Technically, that is not a malfunction or failure of the system. The system was changed by the operator to the extent it is outside of its working design window. Most any system will not work if you change some of the operating parameters.

Moonclips
June 10, 2005, 06:21 PM
Technically, that is not a malfunction or failure of the system. The system was changed by the operator to the extent it is outside of its working design window.
Agreed. But the operating window is somewhat narrow. If you ever need to use this gun for SD, it is possible that you may be forced to hold it improperly due to some circumstance --- and then it fails to cycle. For non-critical use, like hunting, that's no big deal. But if I ever buy an autoloader, I'd prefer it to operate in a wider latitude, just in case. For now, I'll stick to my pump shotgun.

http://www.cafepress.com/2d_amendment

BillL223
June 10, 2005, 07:13 PM
bill2, Brian Enos is an IPSC Grand Master who is no longer active. He has a site which includes a 3-gun section. IMHO, the posts are very informative and posters are world-wide. Regarding HD, I have seen far more failures, in my competition world, with pump guns being short stroked then with Benelli malfunctioning. My HD gun is my Benelli M1.

45crittergitter
June 14, 2005, 11:54 PM
If you ever need to use this gun for SD, it is possible that you may be forced to hold it improperly due to some circumstance --- and then it fails to cycle. For non-critical use, like hunting, that's no big deal. But if I ever buy an autoloader, I'd prefer it to operate in a wider latitude, just in case.

True, BUT, holding a Benelli improperly means holding it too tightly, not too loosely. The "problem" immediately fixes itself and remains in the fight if you loosen the grip a bit. Also, if you're not backed up against a wall, tree, etc. that helps. The gun MUST be free to recoil a bit. OTOH, a gas gun malfunction rarely fixes itself just because you changed your grip. Just my $.02 worth.

DJJ
June 15, 2005, 12:59 AM
I don't know if I'd want Benny Hill working on my shotgun... :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25563&stc=1

Zak Smith
June 15, 2005, 12:19 PM
The Benelli is the most used shotgun in 3Gun competition for good reason: it is more reliable than the other choices. You can be assured that as soon as a substantially better shotgun is available, we'll all switch over ("better" here means: more reliable, faster cycle time, faster to load, etc).

Like any system, there are certain critical parameters which affect its operation. Generally adding a lot of weight to a M1S90 is a bad idea, however, a fully loaded shotgun with 7 in the tube, 1 under the carrier, and the chamber charged does run reliably for everyone I've seen. I also know instances of people using shell carriers on the M1S90. But when you change the system, you must understand how it works and adjust it appropriately.

-z

Correia
June 15, 2005, 12:38 PM
From what I've seen of Benny Hill's work (the 3gunner from Texas IIRC, not the English one) he is very good.

I watched him shoot in the WC3gun one year. He is really fast too.

bill2
June 15, 2005, 12:45 PM
From what I've seen of Benny Hill's work (the 3gunner from Texas IIRC, not the English one) he is very good.

I watched him shoot in the WC3gun one year. He is really fast too.
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That's good to hear. I kept envisioning a chubby guy running with a shotgun followed by a bunch of hot looking women in bikinis. Although, come to think of it, that would be quite a 3 gun match!

and thanks for all the replies. I bought the Benelli a couple of years ago, not knowing much about shotguns and have used it in several 3 gun matches but that's it for my experience. I'm a member of Front Sight's first family so I will try to get out there for the shotgun course.

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