[TechBrute]

So a friend of mine and I have been looking at buying a business together for a little while. We finally selected the one to buy, and applied for a SBA loan. After a lot of red tape and bureaucratic nonsense, we were denied the loan. The reason? We did not have enough money down. Without going into too much detail, we were trying to buy a business for $750K, and we had little more than the usual SBA 10% cash down between us. The SBA came back and said that the business we were trying to buy had recently changed classifications within the SBA and now required 50% down.

On a side note, the banker (BOA) said that we qualified for a conventional loan, but we'd have to have 25% down.

Anyway, now that your eyes have glazed over with boredom:

My friend goes into this rant about the government and about how they'll GIVE money to certain classes of people (edited for public consumption), but if you try to get the gubment to lend a hand to the middle class, you're OOL. I fought my tendancy to go on my usual government rant, because he was doing just fine at the time. Anyway, he starts calming down and comments that it's only a matter of time until there's no middle class, and the lower income class whose votes are bought with campain money from the upper class will vote in a government that will self destruct.

I've know this guy for several (around 10) years now, and he's always been someone I've considered borderline sheeple. He only cares about politics as it relates to money, specifically his money. To see him go on an absolute rant was quite a shock.

Anyway, I seized the opportunity to mention that this is the whole reason we have the government we have today. With a raised eyebrow, he asked what I was talking about. I mentioned that we overthrew the king 231 years ago because we were getting taxed and getting nothing for it.

I'm not sure what happened after that, but I somehow steered the discussion about 2A rights and how it's important that we excercise them so the government doesn't forget where the real power is. After a while we were both back to our normal workday, and we had mostly forgotten the conversation.

Later, however, he asks me to take him shooting. He's technically a gun owner (owns 2 hunting guns, but leaves them at dad's place), so he's never been an anti, but he's only vaguely mentioned an interest in shooting. I think this might have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

[BigG]

it's only a matter of time until there's no middle class, and the lower income class whose votes are bought with campain money from the upper class will vote in a government that will self destruct.

This is very insightful. Some people could never see this point in a million years, though. :uhoh: I'm glad you were able to have this conversation with your friend, despite lack of success with SBA. :D

[Andrew Rothman]

I'm glad your friend has seen the light on guns, but...

My friend goes into this rant about the government and about how they'll GIVE money to certain classes of people (edited for public consumption), but if you try to get the gubment to lend a hand to the middle class, you're OOL.

Wah wah wah. A handout is a handout, and he's just mad he didn't get his.

The SBA offers these loans because they can afford to lose -- with MY money and yours.

Be it baseball teams, bakeries or banks, businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits, and the free market should decide who gets startup capital.

[M16]

you need a minority or female partner. Then they can't turn you down.

[TechBrute]

Wah wah wah. A handout is a handout, and he's just mad he didn't get his.
An SBA loan isn't a handout, trust me. Look into it sometime. It's SUPPOSED to be easier to get then conventional financing. It's not a better interest rate, and it's not a grant.

The SBA offers these loans because they can afford to lose -- with MY money and yours. That's the whole point. They aren't being as forward with the lending as they have in the past, but they're still giving ACTUAL handouts.

Be it baseball teams, bakeries or banks, businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits, and the free market should decide who gets startup capital. Yeah, but since these programs supposedly exist, why wouldn't I take advantage of it?

I really didn't get the point of your entire post.

[TechBrute]

you need a minority or female partner. Then they can't turn you down. Does gay count? I'm not, but he is. Maybe I need to list my wife as a principal.

[Mr. X]

Wah wah wah. A handout is a handout, and he's just mad he didn't get his.

The SBA offers these loans because they can afford to lose -- with MY money and yours.

Be it baseball teams, bakeries or banks, businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits, and the free market should decide who gets startup capital.

Then it should be an equal opportunity handout (hard to call a loan a handout, IMO) that doesn't give preference to certain protected groups of people.

[Andrew Rothman]

An SBA loan isn't a handout, trust me. Look into it sometime. It's SUPPOSED to be easier to get then conventional financing. It's not a better interest rate, and it's not a grant.

Yeah, it is. Trust reality. The higher default rate and the lower interest rate are subsidized with tax dollars.

but since these programs supposedly exist, why wouldn't I take advantage of it?

Go ahead -- I would. Just don't whine when the SBA wants the already-subsidized loan to be better secured to reduce the risk of default.

I really didn't get the point of your entire post.

Simple: Either handouts are good, or they are not. I vote for "not."

[Standing Wolf]

...I somehow steered the discussion about 2A rights and how it's important that we excercise them so the government doesn't forget where the real power is.

We'd be a happier, safer, saner nation if both politicians and criminals lived in constant fear.

[atek3]

what matt payne said, plus:


Yeah, but since these programs supposedly exist, why wouldn't I take advantage of it?


as my friend said when talking about government hand outs, "if you lived in the USSR would you NOT stand in the bread line for food?" and that is true, to a point.

We call the fire department, we call the police, we use the USPS, we use the roads, etc. etc.. despite the fact that all are basically government monopolies.

Some facets of society are so government controlled, you have to get involved with them just to play the game. On the other hand, no one forces you to take handouts, be it subsidized student loans, ag subsidies, SBA loans, subsidized housing, etc. etc.

So next time you complain about not being eligible for a government program, don't be that suprised when others aren't upset with you.

atek3

[DonNikmare]

you need a minority or female partner. Then they can't turn you down.

Aaaagrhh, the image of TechBrute in a dress with make up on.....got to go wash my brain :barf:


Do you think the founding fathers would approve of us owning the conventional weapons of the our time?

I would think they would. The 2 amendment loses a lot of it's significance if one is only allowed to own small arms given the advances in conventional military weapons. Cost would be prohibitive but at least the thought of overthrowing a modern government gone bad with more than small arms would be a possibility.

Nik

[only1asterisk]

Don,

You owe me 1 free brain cleaning! I wasn't thinking that until you said something.


David

[bogie]

IMHO, government subsidized small business loans aren't really all that risky.

Say Joe opens a small business, and borrows $500K to do so. It's successful.

He hires 10 people. Each of them pays $10K/year in taxes.

The loan is paid off in five years, PLUS each year there's $100K in taxes. That continuing $100K from those jobs wouldn't have happened without the small business loan.

Sure, some of the loans don't work out. But you know what? That money goes to the unsuccessful outfits' suppliers, employees, etc... IMHO, the small business loan is one of the best programs, economically, that our government does.

[TechBrute]

I'm still not sure how it's considered a handout if you have to pay it back. But whatever. :rolleyes:

Don,

You owe me 1 free brain cleaning! I wasn't thinking that until you said something.


David Well, at least you don't really know what I look like... Don does... :uhoh:

Bogie, you're pretty much right on. We'd basically be employing two people. Take the tax on their salaries, what they pay in sales tax, property tax, etc, then take my partner's and my income tax, which will increase over what we pay now, then add in the fact that THE LOAN HAS TO BE PAID BACK (which some people seem to forget,) and I don't think that the government is really out any money.

Annoyingly enough, I can get a better rate through conventional financing, I just don't have the cash right now. Of course, I'm closer to the 20% I need for that then the 50% needed for the SBA loan.

[Andrew Rothman]

I'm still not sure how it's considered a handout if you have to pay it back.

It's a handout because it's both a lower rate and a riskier loan than the private sector would take, and it is defaulted on more often. Tax dollars pay for the defaults and the rate break.

[TechBrute]

It's a handout because it's both a lower rate and a riskier loan than the private sector would take, and it is defaulted on more often. Tax dollars pay for the defaults and the rate break. Tax dollars don't pay for the rate break directly. You get the lower rate (sometimes) because the loan is less risky to the lender, being .gov insured. All you are saying would make more sense if they actually did the loans as they were designed. What I have pointed out in my previous posts is that it's easier to get conventional financing (at my case, at a lower rate), than it is to get an SBA loan.

[Andrew Rothman]

Tax dollars don't pay for the rate break directly. You get the lower rate (sometimes) because the loan is less risky to the lender, being .gov insured.
It's just a different way of saying the same thing.