US Homeland Security Picture


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IrvJr
March 18, 2003, 02:00 PM
Hi Folks,

Here's an interesting pic from the NY Times website - an american police officer (Capitol police?) with a German gewehr (I think it's some HK variant rifle).

You'd think they'd use an American rifle in defense of the US Capitol...

IrvJr

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BerettaNut92
March 18, 2003, 02:01 PM
G36 with stock bipod, Aimpoint and extra magazine.

Are those allowed in DC?

Schuey2002
March 18, 2003, 02:02 PM
It is a H&K G36k model. :)

There is a reason that LE agencies use them.

One word: Reliability.;)

gun-fucious
March 18, 2003, 02:38 PM
OK whats an MPR?
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030318/capt.1048011710.homeland_security_wx116.jpg
Unidentified members of the Capitol Hill Police Containment Emergency Response Team (CERT), sporting MPR submachine guns, stand guard on Capitol Hill Tuesday, March 18, 2003

BerettaNut92
March 18, 2003, 02:38 PM
One reason why Skunk wants it. CDI.

Is that a K model? Looks pretty long, and don't know if the K's have bipods? :confused:

WR Olsen
March 18, 2003, 02:47 PM
Are those allowed in DC?

Anything goes when it comes to protecting our Congress Critters!

Mark D
March 18, 2003, 02:47 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030318/capt.1048011710.homeland_security_wx116.jpg
"Unidentified members of the Capitol Hill Police Containment Emergency Response Team (CERT), sporting MPR submachine guns, stand guard on Capitol Hill Tuesday, March 18, 2003"

This guy is holding an MP-5 in .40 cal or 10mm with a Knight's Armament RAIS installed.

BerettaNut92
March 18, 2003, 02:56 PM
MPR?

Me thinks the typist has a short index finger? :D

Schuey2002
March 18, 2003, 03:01 PM
Is that a K model?

YES!!!!

Skunk, note the four vent holes on the forearm (only a K model has this), as well as the "K" model (2.89 inch long) four prong flash hider (again, only a "K" model has this)...:D

The bipod shouldn't be on this gun, it is tooooo long. It's meant to be on the G36E/MG36 models..;)

gun-fucious
March 18, 2003, 03:11 PM
then there the C:
http://www.hkpro.com/g36c.htm

Schuey2002
March 18, 2003, 03:17 PM
This is the same gun as the one pictured above, minus the carry handle w/ (3 or 1.5x) optical sight & bipod. ;)
http://www.hkpro.com/image/g36k.jpg

blades67
March 18, 2003, 08:27 PM
You'd think they'd use an American rifle in defense of the US Capitol...

Maybe you'd think that way, but I think using the best equipment, regardless of where it's made, is the way to go.

voilsb
March 18, 2003, 08:46 PM
quoth blades67:
Maybe you'd think that way, but I think using the best equipment, regardless of where it's made, is the way to go.I disagree.

I think they should use only what the local civilian populace can legally use. which means if the cops want inexpensive SMGs, they had better make sure the civilians have access to inexpensive SMGs. cops want to CCW without an explicit permit? make sure the rest of the population can, too.

tyme
March 18, 2003, 09:05 PM
Okay, but until that happens politically, it's silly to blame these people for the weapons police can carry. It's largely not their fault that they have weapons we cannot have. Blame congress. Blame representatives of PDs who have some level of authority in police PACs. Blame the police chiefs who stage media blitzes declaring that most police support civilian disarmament.

voilsb
March 18, 2003, 09:32 PM
oh, I was never blaming the cops for any of that.

however, I *do* think it's a shame that the political leaders think ordinary people aren't safe/responsible/etc enough to handle any of that stuff. makes me wonder what kind of people they think apply to become cops. super-people, or ordinary people?

Selfdfenz
March 19, 2003, 12:26 AM
Our tax dollars at work!

Wonder where those things are made?

Wonder if that country voted with us in the UNSC lately?
S-

Schuey2002
March 19, 2003, 12:31 AM
Wonder where those things are made?
The H&K G36K? Or the H&K MP5?

If these are what you are referring to, they are both made in the town of Oberndorf,Germany.

;)

Schuey2002
March 20, 2003, 11:28 PM
Here is another member of the US Capitol Hill police toting a *gasp* German-made H&K G36K.. :uhoh:
http://www.hkpro.com/action12g36capflag.jpg

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 12:17 AM
http://www.hkpro.com/action10cappoliceg36.jpg

David
March 21, 2003, 01:16 AM
Are those 2 cops in the picture above in the same location?

Cop 1 -- short sleeve shirt

Cop 2 -- winter jacket and "blizzard gloves"

What's going on?

:confused: :uhoh: :rolleyes:

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 01:26 AM
Maybe you'd think that way, but I think using the best equipment, regardless of where it's made, is the way to go.

In a perfect world. ;)

For now, they use the lowest bidder that meets a minimum set of standards.

I'd almost bet that those G36's represent a combination of a sweetheart low bid from HK and a backlog of M4 production... ;)

(I know, I know, Schuey, it's ubertactical because it's German and made of unobtainium, and M4's are so passe, 'cause you can buy a semiauto clone of one for $800 at the neighborhood gun show... ;) :p )

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 01:43 AM
Are those 2 cops in the picture above in the same location?
Yes,David,it's not an optical illusion. ;)
it's ubertactical because it's German
Preach it, Sista' !! :D
made of unobtainium
Ain't that the truth !!:p
'cause you can buy a semiauto clone of one for $800 at the neighborhood gun show..
Shhh, [Elmer Fudd_speak] be bery.. bery quiet [/Elmer Fudd_speak] , we don't want word getting out..:neener: LOL!

twoblink
March 21, 2003, 02:04 AM
voilsb,

Everybody is equal, just some are more equal than others..

I don't know, they are a bit heavy... Skunk likes them though..

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 02:30 AM
IrvJr, just imagine, the US Secret Service uses [French-made:banghead:] FN P90's to protect the most powerful man on the planet...;)

labgrade
March 21, 2003, 02:50 AM
Appears to be a static target.

No offense meant, but, sheesh ...

As a "deterent," a scoped .22LR would take 'im right out - one shot.

& these are our "protectorants?"

I don't give one rat's butt what these storm-troopers are carrying, if they'll just stand around with their "mean guns a-hanging," they're dead meat.

another48hrs
March 21, 2003, 03:30 AM
Gasp Schuey2002:eek: The FN P90 is made in Belgium and not in France. I love Fabrique National and they are up their with H&K in quality. While many hope for a semi G36 I'll be waiting for a semi FN2000. Heck who am I kidding I need both. :D

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 03:59 AM
Another48hrs, I stand corrected, you are right.
The FN P90 is made in Belgium and not in France.
But, I'll add this. At the time when the FN P90 was developed, Fabrique Nationale's parent company was the French military firm of GIAT Industries..

So, I'm kinda' right.;)

another48hrs
March 21, 2003, 04:11 AM
I don't know what to say. I will express my feelings from a scene from the movie The Empire Strikes Back where Luke Skywalker confronts Darth Vader.

another48hrs: No! That's not true! That's impossible!
Schuey2002: Search your feelings you know it to be true.
another48hrs: Nooooo! Nooooo!

Ok that's enough from me. I'm glad I got that out of my system. Superstar!!!

Tommy Gunn
March 21, 2003, 04:27 AM
http://tommygun.com/images/1928.gif

A Thompsen SMG and a Colt 1911A1 pistol is still good kit. Looks sharp too! :)

Kharn
March 21, 2003, 07:12 AM
Tommy Gun:
Only problem is that there are no fedoras with an NSN.

Kharn

Lone_Gunman
March 21, 2003, 08:30 AM
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didnt FN (or some other European manufacturer) win a bid not too long ago to manufacture rifles (?M4's) for the US military?

Kharn
March 21, 2003, 08:35 AM
FN (based in Belgium) has had the M16A2 contract for several years. They had to build a factory in the US to make the rifles, as the contract requires they be manufactured in the US.

Kharn

Labinnac
March 21, 2003, 01:26 PM
FN doesn't have a parent company, they ARE the parent company for several names you may recognize, Browning & Winchester.

The plant in the US makes all of the M16, M249, and M240s for the US military. Take a look at any given picture of the guys in the middle east right now and if they're our troops, they're carrying weapons made by FN...

With the exception of the pistols, but those only matter when you run out of belts...

Check out the site:

QuarterBoreGunner
March 21, 2003, 01:40 PM
For those of you with a FN P90 jones, may I present:

The LEO safe at the former National Shooting Club-

It's like that moment in '2001 A Space Odyssey' "My God, it's full of stars!'

http://www.swedcom.com/test_images/office_safe_web.jpg

*sniff*I just wish I still had access to them. Unfortunately when National folded they were all returned to their various makers/importer.
Let's see, on the door:
Top is a Fabrique National P90 5.7x29mm PDW with SureFire on the side.
Next down is another P90 with the integrated laser sight.
Then on the left lower is a HK MP5 PDW (personal favorite) and next to it is a HK MP40 with a KAC forend, vertical grip and Mk 3 tac-light. That on also has a first gen EOTech holosight.
In the safe in the back is a short barreled (10")Mossberg 500 with a SureFire forend, that was converted to a door breeching gun. In front of that is a HK MP5 SD3. Next to it is a Bushmaster M4 select fire with the KAC railsystem, vertical grip and SureFire. On it is a early C-More tac sight.And then finally on the left is a select fire Steyr AUG with the 14" barrel. And lots of loaded mags for the MPs on the second shelf.
(sigh)
I miss those guns... oh well.

Chris

Triad
March 21, 2003, 01:50 PM
Isn't FN owned by the Belgian govt.? I thought I read that somewhere...
The cop in winter clothes probably forgot to do his laundry.

Labinnac
March 21, 2003, 02:03 PM
Yep, they're owned by a region in Belgium.

I think the site got missed on my last post, here it is.

www.fnmfg.com

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 03:07 PM
It's like that moment in '2001 A Space Odyssey' "My God, it's full of stars!'

That always reminds me of a sigline I used to see on some BBSes back in the pre-WWW days:

Monolith Mall: "My God! It's full of stores!"

:D

MMcCall
March 21, 2003, 03:26 PM
I disagree.

I think they should use only what the local civilian populace can legally use. which means if the cops want inexpensive SMGs, they had better make sure the civilians have access to inexpensive SMGs. cops want to CCW without an explicit permit? make sure the rest of the population can, too.

You're right, because police NEVER have special needs, different training, or different requirements than civilians! :rolleyes:

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 05:09 PM
You're right, because police NEVER have special needs, different training, or different requirements than civilians! :rolleyes:

Of course!

The knights of the realm may carry swords, and us lowly serfs may not. ;)

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 05:21 PM
5/29/98
.... the European Commission will give the green light to the 11 billion FB rescue plan for Groupe Herstal, the Walloon armorer [popularly known as FN-Herstal, located outside Liege]. ...

The bulk of the sum - 8.55 billion FB - consists of relinquished debts of the [former] parent company, Giat Industries of France. .....
But the Commission estimates that Giat behaved just as a private
investor, since the alternative solutions - bankruptcy or sale to
American Colt - would have cost Giat even more. The rescue plan is being co-financed with 2.5 billion FB by the Walloon Region. In November 1997, the Region, already 8% owner of Groupe Herstal [and endowed with veto rights] preferred to re-take the entirety of the company, rather than letting Giat sell it to Colt - suspected of wanting to relocate production to the United States. ....

**************************************

Original article by Martial Tardy, Le Soir, Bruxelles: See 'Economie'
section of Le Soir 5/29/98


Like I said, Giat was the parent company during the time when the FN P90 was developed. :scrutiny:

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 05:45 PM
another48hrs: No! That's not true! That's impossible!
Schuey2002: Search your feelings you know it to be true.
another48hrs: Nooooo! Nooooo!

Another48hrs, huh, last time I checked my last name wasn't Skywalker ! :neener: :D

MMcCall
March 21, 2003, 07:19 PM
Of course!

The knights of the realm may carry swords, and us lowly serfs may not. ;)

Become a knight, fight the knight's battles, and then we'll talk about who gets a sword and who doesn't. Proper tool for the proper job.

Sven
March 21, 2003, 07:27 PM
Chris:

Nice photo - too bad Reed's selection has pared back a bit since the NSC days.

:mad:

QuarterBoreGunner
March 21, 2003, 09:24 PM
Yeah nice thing about working at NSC was the ability to, uhm, the occasional function test, yeah, that's it, on the pistol caliber SMGs.

Most fun: the HK PDW 'cause it's just the cutest little chainsaw.

Highest cool factor: The HK SD 'cause duh; suppressed machine gun. Weird to shoot w/o ear protection and hear the rounds hitting the backstop.

The P90 we could only shoot at the outdoor range as the ammo is all AP and would have played hell with our backstop. Not to mention that at the time, the ammo for the P90 was VERY expensive- about .70 cents a round.

Triad
March 22, 2003, 06:31 PM
Become a knight, fight the knight's battles, and then we'll talk about who gets a sword and who doesn't.
I've a better idea. Why don't get off your high horse and shove that sword right up your noble ***?

Blain
March 23, 2003, 12:45 AM
Are you sure that the secret service uses FNP90s? Where is your proff?

Tamara
March 23, 2003, 01:17 AM
Become a knight, fight the knight's battles, and then we'll talk about who gets a sword and who doesn't.

Listen, you still haven't explained to me why my employees get to buy stuff with my money that I can't.

Last several times I needed the "knights", they were off chasing speeders and munching donuts, leaving me to face dragons all by my lonesome. :scrutiny: :fire: :scrutiny:

May I assume from the attitude that you are, in fact, a civil servant? :confused:

Schuey2002
March 23, 2003, 01:35 AM
Are you sure that the secret service uses FNP90s? Where is your proff?
Reuters had a picture of a guy that the U.S. Secret Service had arrested outside the White House;one guy had him pinned to the ground, while another SS member was clearly pointing a FN P90 at him..

I can't find the pic. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Byron Quick
March 23, 2003, 01:37 AM
Become a knight, fight a knight's battles, and then we'll talk about who gets a sword and who doesn't.


And never mind pesky little details like the Bill of Rights...knights are above such crass concerns, eh?

Oh, yeah, folks, watch the asterisk stuff. Art's gramma might be watching.

Don Gwinn
March 23, 2003, 10:54 AM
MMcCall, I don't know how long you've been around, but Tamara has "fought the knight's battles" at least twice. That's just the ones she's posted about. Luckily, a Glock and a revolver, respectively, were enough to handle both situations.

"The knight's battles?" The knights in our society only fight battles when they're called by the serfs to do so. The serfs only call when they're already involved in the battle. Unless you arrest a speeder because he has a warrant, most of the people you arrest/fight/shoot have already attacked a "serf/civilian," not so? We do fight the same battles as you, but we fight them less often and we have the option of running away.
On the other hand, we don't have a radio that brings brothers-in-arms running with shotguns, subguns and body armor. Can't call a helicopter, either. ;)

The saying should be as follows:
"All animals are equal. Some animals think they are more equal than others, but they invariably find that they are wrong."

El Tejon
March 23, 2003, 11:32 AM
I don't want to be a knight, I want to be the marquess. That way I get all the kewl swords and don't have to fight the battles!:D

BTW, I think all this "Iwannacoolgun" virus is inane drivel, however, there is something called the Bill of Rights and it guarantees that even Schuey and Tamara get all the goofy weapons they want. The BoR is not dependent upon the "needs" of the knights.:fire:

MMcCall
March 23, 2003, 02:49 PM
Outstanding, my first hornet's nest.

1. I'm not a civil servant. I'm a properly functioning capitalist.

2. My posterior region is neither up on a horse, or in need of anything being shoved in it, thanks. Triad: You've got issues. Try bringing something useful to the table next time.

3. My statement was addressing NEED, not want or right. I was simply saying that a lot of the "them vs. us" laws, in regards to LEO weapons/mags, are based on a perceived need of police and military in relation to perceived needs of civilians. I personally haven't had to rescue any hostages or end a bank robbery lately ;)

BTW, I think all this "Iwannacoolgun" virus is inane drivel, however, there is something called the Bill of Rights and it guarantees that even Schuey and Tamara get all the goofy weapons they want. The BoR is not dependent upon the "needs" of the knights

The constant overuse of that term is becoming inane drivel :p

I want cool guns, as much as I want functional guns, and loud guns, and supressed guns, etc etc. But do you HONESTLY think that America 2003 functions under the BOR? I sometimes wonder how the founding fathers would have worded the Second Amendment if they'd been able to see the world as it is now.

Tamara
March 23, 2003, 05:40 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying. :cool:

I sometimes wonder how the founding fathers would have worded the Second Amendment if they'd been able to see the world as it is now.

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of Tamara to buy really, really swoopy hardware shall not be obscured by yards of red tape."

:D

JShirley
March 27, 2003, 05:12 PM
Damn straight.

"I'm not a serf: I have weapons."

AZ Jeff
March 27, 2003, 06:04 PM
McCall said:
I sometimes wonder how the founding fathers would have worded the Second Amendment if they'd been able to see the world as it is now.

To which I say:
with that sort of thinking, it looks like you are ready to accept the liberal revisionist view of the constitution, the one that says we really don't need all those pesky rights in our modern, enlightened society.

God help us if we all begin to think that way!!:what:

MMcCall
March 27, 2003, 07:00 PM
To which I say:
with that sort of thinking, it looks like you are ready to accept the liberal revisionist view of the constitution, the one that says we really don't need all those pesky rights in our modern, enlightened society.

God help us if we all begin to think that way!!

I love when people talk to me like they know me, from a web board.

What I was saying, Captain Inference, is that it would be my hope, given the backgrounds and sense of purpose of the Founding Fathers, that could they have forseen the disdain and ambiguity with which the Second Amendment is viewed today, they would have drafted it in more specific terms. Clearer statements of freedom, that would guarantee that we wouldn't come under the same attacks and restrictions that we do in the present age.

Or who knows, maybe Thomas Jefferson would have watched a GE Minigun or OICW demo and said, "goddamn, nobody needs one of those!". You never know.

The Rock
March 27, 2003, 11:02 PM
Or who knows, maybe Thomas Jefferson would have watched a GE Minigun or OICW demo and said, "goddamn, nobody needs one of those!". You never know.

Somehow, I don't see it..

I'm thinking that ol' TJ would ask the price and consult the checkbook.

Inhabitants of the US (natural and naturalized) are just fairly well armed serfs.

TR

Quartus
March 27, 2003, 11:31 PM
You could easily be a little more clear, and a lot less confrontational, McCall.


And BTW, police officers ARE civilians.

MMcCall
March 28, 2003, 01:54 PM
You could easily be a little more clear, and a lot less confrontational, McCall.

Agreed, the tones of those posts were a little harsh, and the tongue-in-cheek pejorative was uncalled for.

It just gets me a little fired up when folks on this board, of all places, immediately construe any statement about the 2A that isn't along the lines of "God Almighty and George Washington said we could have any gun we want, any time, anywhere" to be 'liberal' and 'revisionist'. We can talk origin and intent until we're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, we're still left fighting the same battle for the same turf.

Come on, guys.. we're all on the same side here. Discussion and debate are what force us to dig down and see what we *really* believe, so we can defend it.


And BTW, police officers ARE civilians.

Agreed completely, but the lawmakers seem intent on making it otherwise.

Just to bring this (woefully off-topic) thread full circle, I was watching the Modern Marvels about "future weapons" last night, and my girlfriend basically had to give me a drool bib when the HK stuff was onscreen :)

AZ Jeff
March 28, 2003, 04:40 PM
OK, McCall, I will admit I interpreted your statements as leaning towards a "liberal" view of the Second Amend.

However, if one wants to be clear in his message, be careful how to craft your words. I found it very easy to jump to the conclusion that you were perhaps not a strong 2A kinda guy. My bad. Just be careful to state what you mean.

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