Did "Bowling For Columbine" Fake Quotes?


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Guntalk
March 18, 2003, 05:33 PM
"Bowling For Columbine" is up for an Oscar this Sunday, and will likely get one.

It's a ---- little movie, but beyond that, attorney and Second Amendment scholar David Hardy says the movie fakes quotes by Charlton Heston.

Relying on transcripts of Heston speeches, Hardy has determined that Heston's audio was edited, with portions cut out, with the result that he appears to say things he never said.

Hardy will be a guest on Gun Talk radio this Sunday, at 2:05pm Eastern time.

www.guntalk.com for those who don't get it on a local radio station.

If you enjoyed reading about "Did "Bowling For Columbine" Fake Quotes?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Quartus
March 18, 2003, 05:47 PM
WHAT?!?!?! An ANTI tell a LIE!?!??!! IT CAN'T BE!!!!



Busted? One can only hope this clown joins Beliars on the dust heap of history.



Hey, antis, if you have to constantly LIE to make your point, does that tell you anything about the value of your point?

Apparently not. :rolleyes:

CZ-75
March 18, 2003, 06:34 PM
They faked scenes, so why not?

gryphon
March 18, 2003, 06:46 PM
I know that the best we could hope for is for a Bellisiles(sp) type situation, where his "movie" is exposed for what it really is and removed from nomination. That probably won't happen because it is a movie and not a book, and God knows that movies are far more important than books today.

This same lame brain sent a letter to the President and made a royal (slang for donkey) out of himself yet again. I was thinking of posting it here for those who hadn't seen it, but since it is not technically "gun related" I couldn't see wasting the bandwidth on this buffoon.

Blackhawk
March 18, 2003, 07:16 PM
Was Mickey Moore involved?

There 'ya go....

Sven
March 18, 2003, 08:02 PM
My anti friends could care less that the movie is filled with lies. Everyone chooses their own reality, sadly.

blades67
March 18, 2003, 08:06 PM
If they are anti-gun, they are not your friends, Sven.

Yohan
March 18, 2003, 09:00 PM
blades, that's not true. I have some friends who are anti. It's called being open minded :rolleyes:

MAKOwner
March 19, 2003, 02:56 AM
I would call being anti being an idiot, but that's OK...

LOL.

foghornl
March 19, 2003, 08:44 AM
Did "Bowling For Columbine" Fake Quotes? Is Director "Little Mikey Moore" a 4F ? ? ?


Fat Funky Foolhardy Fop

You decide..same answer to both questions.

A bit of "Poetic License" is OK, outright blatant LIES are not.

Don Gwinn
March 19, 2003, 08:55 AM
Y'know, the only thing I question about this is why Heston would have let it go this long if it were true. He took a lot of heat over that movie.

If it was done, but it was so slight that the man who made the statements didn't notice it, then it would be hard to argue that it was a malicious attempt to misrepresent him.

Quartus
March 19, 2003, 11:54 AM
Don, I can think of two possible answers to that question:

[list=1]
He considers it to be beneath him. Especially knowing how little this crowd cares about that inconvenient thing called truth.

He's got more important things on his mind. Like his mind.
[/list=1]


I don't think we can read anything into his silence. He's been pilloried before and has let it pass.

longeyes
March 19, 2003, 11:58 AM
Not only will it win an Oscar. It will get a standing ovation. You may want to watch on an "old" tv and keep a round in the chamber.

jmbg29
March 19, 2003, 12:21 PM
If it was done, but it was so slight that the man who made the statements didn't notice it, then it would be hard to argue that it was a malicious attempt to misrepresent him.Especially in a world that would bestow endless accolades upon a "documentary" that portrays the KKK and the N.R.A. as one and the same. Oh, and before anybody diputes that, I suggest that you go back and watch the animated section of the movie again! THE N.R.A. CHARACTER POURS THE GAS, AND IGNITES THE CROSS!!!!!

Better to place the burden of proving the truth on a humble old man that is suffering from a hellish disease.

Hell doesn't own a pit deep enough for that fat bastard.:fire: :fire: :fire:

Betty
March 19, 2003, 12:25 PM
Let's watch the language, folks.

Also, let's stick to criticizing the film and not MM's appearance. I'm trying to eat lunch.

WyldOne
March 19, 2003, 12:26 PM
I'm with Don on this. My initial thought, upon reading the first post, was, "What has Heston said about this?"

I'm expected to believe Person X that Person Y's statements in a movie are false? And why, beacuse Person X has studied transcripts and the like? That's not gonna cut it with me.

Until Heston himself releases a statement saying either, I was misquoted; or, I was correctly quoted; then I'm not gonna believe this lawyer.

Quartus
March 19, 2003, 01:40 PM
Given Heston's current personal situation, is it unreasonable to think that he might just pass on this particular controversy? Frankly, who would consider him a credible witness right now? After all, we are talking about asking him to remember speeches made some time ago. If HE says they were doctored, who's going to believe him?


If the lawyer can show film side by side that shows the doctoring, do we need Heston's statement?


I'm willing to look at the evidence.

Elmer Snerd
March 19, 2003, 01:41 PM
Perhaps Heston's lawyers are reviewing his speeches as we discuss this. Assuming that he watched BFC in the first place, he may not have noticed the (alleged) skilled editing job on speeches he gave years ago.

The site from the GunTalk article:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

There are many other links there concerning other oopsies besides Heston's interview and speeches in BFC.

Don Gwinn
March 19, 2003, 03:04 PM
Jmbg, go to your happy place and take a deep breath.

gun-fucious
March 21, 2003, 11:16 PM
Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was a response to his being given the musket, a collector's piece, at that annual meeting. Bowling leads off with this speech, and then splices in footage which was taken in Denver and refers to Denver, to create the impression that the entire clip was taken at the Denver event.

Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.


Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and quite a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison.

Moore has actually taken audio of seven sentences, from five different parts of the speech, and a section given in a different speech entirely, and spliced them together, to create a speech that was never given. Each edit is cleverly covered by inserting a still or video footage for a few seconds.

First, right after the weeping victims, Moore puts on Heston's "I have only five words for you . . . cold dead hands" statement, making it seem directed at them. As noted above, it's actually a thank-you speech given a year later to a meeting in North Carolina.

Moore then has an interlude -- a visual of a billboard and his narration. The interlude is vital. He can't cut directly to Heston's real Denver speech. If he did that, you might ask why Heston in mid-speech changed from a purple tie and lavender shirt to a white shirt and red tie. Or why the background draperies went from maroon to blue. Moore has to separate the two segments of this supposed speech to keep the viewer from noticing.

Moore then goes to show Heston speaking in Denver. His second edit (covered by splicing in a pan shot of the crowd at the meeting, while Heston's voice continues) deletes Heston's announcement that NRA has in fact cancelled most of its meeting:


"As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings. This decision has perplexeda few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that."


Moore has to take that out -- it would blow his entire theme. Moore then cuts to Heston noting that Denver's mayor asked NRA not to come, and shows Heston replying "I said to the Mayor: Don't come here? We're already here!" as if in defiance.

Actually, Moore put an edit right in the middle of the first sentence! Heston was actually saying (with reference Heston's own WWII vet status) "I said to the mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you here in this room could say the same thing."

Moore cuts it after "I said to the Mayor" and attaches a sentence from the end of the next paragraph: "As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land." It thus becomes an arrogant "I said to the Mayor: as American's we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land." He hides the deletion by cutting to footage of protestors and a still photo of the Mayor as Heston says "I said to the mayor," cutting back to Heston's face at "As Americans."

Moore has Heston then triumphantly announce "Don't come here? We're already here!" Actually, that sentence is clipped from a segment five paragraphs farther on in the speech. Again, Moore uses an editing trick to cover the doctoring. As Heston speaks, the video switches momentarily to a pan of the crowd, then back to Heston; the pan shot covers the doctoring.

What Heston actually is saying in "We're already here" was not the implied defiance, but rather this:


"NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.

Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.

So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy."


http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Guntalk
March 21, 2003, 11:36 PM
>>Until Heston himself releases a statement saying either, I was misquoted; or, I was correctly quoted; then I'm not gonna believe this lawyer.<<

So, do the research. The info is on the man's web site. The original documents are linked.

Check it out.

"This lawyer" is a staunch Second Amendment fighter.

You might want to check his background -- it's impressive.

Or, call the radio show and challenge him. That should be fun.

jmbg29
March 22, 2003, 02:25 AM
Jmbg, go to your happy place and take a deep breath.My "happy place" is to dance on Michael Moore's grave. :fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:

That deep breath will be so much more refreshing when he is done stealing my oxygen. :fire:

Thanks for the kind words though.

Don Gwinn
March 22, 2003, 04:51 PM
Ummm.....yeah. Well, I fear for your health, but that's your business.

Anyway, I'm convinced. But I'm still surprised Heston didn't make a fuss over this. He wasn't above taking a small jab at George Clooney. Maybe Mikey ranks lower than George.

Don Gwinn
March 22, 2003, 05:13 PM
Check out the last paragraph of the Denver speech:

One more thing. Our words and our behavior will be scrutinized more than ever this morning. Those who are hostile towards us will lie in wait to seize on a soundbite out of context, ever searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule us. So, let us be mindful. The eyes of the nation are upon us today.

But then, what did he know?

Bonker
March 24, 2003, 12:47 AM
VERY good readin here:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html


Sorry if it's been posted already.

BamBam
March 24, 2003, 01:13 AM
Bonker,
Thanks so much for this info!
This is the best, most accurate, most documented account of Moore's underhandedness that I've seen.

Blackhawk
March 24, 2003, 01:16 AM
Thanks, Bonker. It is good reading! :D

This is probably going to get moved to Legal & Political.

sm
March 24, 2003, 01:29 AM
Thanks,
I have a use for this...;)

CZ-75
March 24, 2003, 01:43 AM
Good job for finding this.

illuminatus99
March 24, 2003, 02:18 AM
I've thought about downloading that movie (I'm not about to sent a single dime his way) but I want to make sure I have an empty stomach before I try to sit through it

WhoKnowsWho
March 24, 2003, 03:44 AM
Lots of stuff about the Michael Moore guy, for those of you lacking in information in his "documentary", found a good site with good information about it.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Breaks it down (apart) very well.

MAKOwner
March 24, 2003, 04:17 AM
Oh, good link. Been trying to find the goods on that film, already knew about the flint shooting details and felt it quite odd he completely left that stuff out. Figured he had to have skewed something else too, didn't realize he skewed nearly the whole entire movie, lol.

Bonker
March 24, 2003, 04:18 AM
I beat ya to it by a few hours :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15077

WhoKnowsWho
March 24, 2003, 06:50 AM
Just noticed you beat me to posting the link Bonker, we'll let both of them get attention until a moderator closes one. :)

Don Gwinn
March 24, 2003, 08:36 AM
I'll merge the two so the resulting thread stays at least as near the top as this one.

MAKOwner
March 24, 2003, 03:40 PM
Moore's Oscar should have been for "Best Editing Job to Skew the Truth". That's some fancy editing to make Heston appear to be saying some totally different things, and I love the part about the Flint, Mich rally happening 8 months after the shooting. That's some "hurrying there to hold a big pro-gun rally" or whatever it was Moore said... Didn't Heston get the memo, after a mulitple offender violent crackhouse baby shoots someone in a city, the NRA can never visit there again, ever... And gee, I can't believe Heston didn't apologize.

Wonder how badly the interview at his house was edited and changed?

natedog
March 24, 2003, 06:32 PM
If anyone wants to see the film, just give me a holler.

If you enjoyed reading about "Did "Bowling For Columbine" Fake Quotes?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!