[makdaddy03]

Hi, I found a Swiss Schmidt Rubin 7.5cal. Straight pull bolt action in "Excellent" condition. For sale for $150+ tax. Would this be a good price? and is there ammo available? Was marked down from$220 down to $150 due to gunshop closing down this fall.:(

[GrantLee63]

Well, I bought one in December from a local sporting goods store here in SE Michigan (Dunham's) for $119.00. I have a C&R and know that I could get one - or several - from several sources for as low as $89.00 .....

The Schmidt-Rubin K31 is an excellent rifle that is incredibly accurate. I read an article that said if the K31 was being manufactured today, it would cost about $2500 to manufacture, so I guess $150.00 is not a bad price !

Check out this forum for answers to all your Schmidt-Rubin questions:

http://pub125.ezboard.com/fcollectorguns35625frm1?page=1

Good Luck !

[cratz2]

I've had one for a few months but I don't think I've shot it yet.

They're supposed to be very accurate and they have good sights which helps out too. Ammo can be had but it will be more expensive than the cheapest military ammo.

Nice guns, along with the Enfields, probably the best value in military rifles right now.

There's another good forum over at www.milsurpshooter.net

[IMtheNRA]

Depends on the model.

The S-R K-31 carbine can be had for 99.95 plus shipping from FGS with a sling and muzzle cover. A lower grade of this carbine is available from AIM for just 89.95 shipped.

If you're looking at some of the other models of S-R, then $150 may be a great deal, as some sell for $250-$350. Check out the forum that GrantLee63 had recommended. There are some real experts there and you can look up the serial number for model and year of manufacture confirmation.

The K-31 may well be the most accurate mil-surp rifle of all time. It really IS built like a Swiss watch.

If you get one, don't forget to check for the surprise under the butt-plate! ;)

[makdaddy03]

Cool! Thanks for the info.

[HarryB]

http://www.swissriflewebsite.com/

[Tamara]

I have a Schmidt-Rubin M96/11, and it is absolutely delicious.

Maybe the nicest chunk of machining of any rifle I own.

[0007]

Go over to assaultweb.net and look under the mausers and moisins thread. There is a long discussion on the Schmidt-Rubin. I decided to "K31" thinks that's cloe to sacrilege...

[BenW]

I have a Schmidt-Rubin M96/11, and it is absolutely delicious.
I've never seen one of the 96/11s in person. If yours was not reconditioned, what was the condition of the stock when you got it? I don't know what the heck those Swiss did with their K31s, but every one I've ever seen has had excellent steel mounted on a stock that looks like it was used to drive tent pegs.

[BHP9]

For those of you that might not yet of purchased one of these K31's I suggest you act fast and get a least one and if your smart buy two of them. I am not joking. Before the large import of these rifles they were selling for $450 dollars and up and will do so again when this supply is gone.

I have collected and shot military rifles all of my life and the K31 is one of the most accurate rifles ever made. Trigger pulls are the best ever put on a military rifle.

Bores are all excellent but stocks are al little scuffed up but if this bothers you they could be refinished.

Do not worry about ammo. Norma makes it and I also bought some Portugese boxer primed ammo, non-corrosive of course and it was accurate out of this world. I would stay away from any corrosive ammo. These guns are too nice to screw up and ruin with corrosive ammo.

If all this ammo drys up you can use .284 Winchester brass and neck it up to 30 caliber and use .308 caliber bullets.

[Don Gwinn]

You don't have to buy that one, but you have to get one. Don't try to fight it.

[BenW]

Do not worry about ammo
Graf's is supposed to be getting some brass in soon as well. I haven't started reloading for mine yet, but ordered the dies from Midway this week. Though the ammo is somewhat scarce, if you stock up on brass now you can shoot a long time.:)

[Gewehr98]

But my 1912-vintage 1911 has some of the prettiest wood I've ever seen on a European service rifle. And that was a LONG stock blank to cut out of one piece of wood:

http://mauser98.com/schmidt.jpg

[Tamara]

If yours was not reconditioned, what was the condition of the stock when you got it?

I don't think my stock's been reconditioned. All the cartouches amd stampings are exceptionally nice and clear.

It is not only a beautifully-figured piece of wood, but the fit of the add-on pistol grip would shame any piece of furniture in my house. Were it not for the different orientation of the grain and the hairline joint around it, you'd think it was all one piece. Nice, nice rifle. (...and the only rifle I own that's actually longer than my Martini Henry! :eek: )

The only downside is that the metal has that old brown patina of age. Thanks to HarryB's link, I was able to determine that the rifle was made in 1900, so that's kind of to be expected.

(Thanks to this thread, I pulled it out and spent some time oiling it down; it's a pleasure to handle such a fine piece of machinery... :cool: )

(Oh, and as a 96/11-owning snob, I can say: Remember, a K31 isn't really a Schmidt-Rubin! :D ;) )

[Gewehr98]

I almost forgot!

(Oh, and as a 96/11-owning snob, I can say: Remember, a K31 isn't really a Schmidt-Rubin!)

Think I can justifiably say the same, as a 1911 S-R owner...:neener:

[cratz2]

Seems like a lot of these Swiss rifles are in pretty good condition all these years later... My lowly 'not-a-real-S-R' K31 is just about perfect except for one little crack in the stock.

Haven't had a chance to take my own pics but here are some from the previous owner.

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//Schmidt-Rubin%20K31%201.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//Schmidt-Rubin%20K31%206.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//Schmidt-Rubin%20K31%202.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//Schmidt-Rubin%20K31%203.jpg

[BenW]

Oh, and as a 96/11-owning snob, I can say: Remember, a K31 isn't really a Schmidt-Rubin!
Now see ,all that statement does is make me wanna go and buy one. And once I buy one, there goes the neighborhood, just like Rodney Dangerfield and the country club in Caddyshack:D

I still wanna know what the deal is with the K31 stocks though. After your post Tamara, I did a quick search on 98/11s for sale and all the pictures I saw looked like really great condition rifles. If you look at Cratz2's images, you can see discoloration on the butt. All the K31s I've seen, mine included have had good to great wood and finish until you get to the butt. Then they are anything from severely discolored to being dinged and scraped up. My first analogy of driving tent pegs was somewhat inaccurate. It's more like somebody used them as a broom. Just wondering if there were some kind of drills the Swiss had to do with them that would cause such common damage.

[cratz2]

Here's a closeup of the stock...

http://gunbroker.com/pixhost/2002-12-01/Alley_Cat_1038808829_DSC00043.JPG

[Tamara]

Odd, mine isn't like that.

Was there a flood in an armory where the K31s were stored? Did they have the butts wrapped with tape for some reason? I wonder what the deal is... :confused:

[swingset]

There are soooo many theories on the buttstock damage. Everything from flood/water damage to using them for leverage when scaling mountains! :D

Do a search on the swiss rifles forum and you'll find there are more theories than rifles!

I've read a couple guys who were Swiss owners who claim it was their training regimine that did it, mainly the soft beech wood combined with ground-up/ground-down shooting maneuvers that was hard on a lot of buttstocks. I've seen that funny, rutty damage all over some of the guns, not just the buttstock so it's hard to say for sure or that there's a common cause for all the damage.

[BenW]

There are soooo many theories on the buttstock damage.
That's why it's of such interest to me. You hear lots of theories on the C&R boards, and I've seen posts where people said they were going to contact the soldier who carried the rifle to ask him, but I've never seen a firsthand report from any Swiss soldier on the cause (and the name on my rifle's tag is partially worn so I can't contact that person myself to ask what he did with the durn thing). I DO like some of the theories though, a couple of my favorite being:

They were used as chew toys for Saint Bernards.

Bored soldiers used them to play ice hockey on their downtime.
:D

Macdaddy -- Sorry to have hijacked the thread with this. Don't let chewed up buttstocks stop you from getting one or two or three or four K31s.:)

[HarryB]

I love my Swiss Army Rifle...

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0303/19460.jpg

the receiver and bolt takes some getting used to...

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0303/19461.jpg

some of the wood is sweet...

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0203/17700.jpg

but my butt has nicks and some water damage--possible from being tripoded in the snow(?) or those spiked Swiss boots

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0303/19462.jpg


Mine is in really nice shape overall, but mine belong to a radio telephone operator in artillery HQ according to the tag. Sadly I have not been able to find a contact address to personally inquire.

[Adventurer_96]

My gunsmith is from Switzerland, and he made the barrels at Hammerli for his apprenticeship. He had no answers as to why the stock was in such a condition, he said that if anyone showed up with a rifle with a beat-up stock for annual inspection they'd be in trouble! :)

I sent a letter to a man who has the same name, and lives in the same town, as my rifle's previous owner, but I haven't heard anything. Maybe I'll need to buy another one...

Check out www.whitepages.ch to see if you can find the previous owner.

[HarryB]

Thanks for that link AD96! I got a hit this time. Now to write a letter with some pics and a copy of the tag. Much appreciated...

[Tamara]

I see all these cryptic messages about a "secret toy surprise" under the buttplate and think, "Hmmmm... Mine's absolutely cherry, all matching numbers (even the buttplate)... Hey! The widest screwdriver bit on my Leatherman Juice fits these buttplate screws perfectly!" *twirltwirltwirl* Nothing. Denied. How bitter am I? :(

[HarryB]

I think my name was on that 96/11. It must of fallen out during a cleaning. Please send to me--I will cover shipping

[BenW]

*twirltwirltwirl* Nothing. Denied. How bitter am I?
I'm here to cheer you up. I will trade you my K31 WITH a nifty name tag for that old, worn out 96/11 of yours AND pay shipping.

In my best imitation of "Gold Hat" from Treasure of the Sierra Madre, "..just throw that ol' iron over heeere..." :D :D :D

[Adventurer_96]

My first one had no name, so I was quite unhappy. But, it's kind of a bummer to have not had a response to my letter. Like I said, an excuse for a third perhaps.

[444]

I was so disappointed with not getting a name with my first K31 that I bought a second one. No dice there either. I was talking to a salesman at Big 5 sporting goods and he admitted to me that he checked all their K31s as soon as they came in.
I have been shooting my K31 in our local Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle matches. It is a terrific rifle, but my point of impact rises with heat. Most of the stages are 10 round stages and by the last few shots I have to take heat into consideration. Last month we had a 400 yard target and I was walking the sight down the target. I blew the last shot by holding too low. Another great thing about the K31 in these matches is the detachable mag. Again, these stages are 10 rounds and most stages are timed. The intention of course is to re-create the old time practice of using stripper clips under pressure. But, since I own two K31s, I just take both mags and making the reload is a non-issue. The straight pull action is also very smooth and quick. You quickly get into a rhythm with the bolt.
Ammo is an issue with the Swiss rifles. I am currently shooting Swiss mil-surp ammo that costs me $39/60 rounds. I have purchased Norma at $39/20 rounds. But, I am now reloading the cases. This has all become acedemic for the handloader now since reloadable brass is now available. It isn't something that you can just pick up the phone and get in a couple days, but Graff & Son gets it in periodically. I am currently waiting on 500 pieces. This should last me a lifetime. One beauty of the K31 is the fact that it has a .308 bore. So, bullet selection is wide. I am shooting Nosler J4 Competition 168 grain HPBTs. It is wonderful to be able to buy the best quality match bullets to give a fine rifle like this every chance to succeed. I have also been playing around with cast bullets in this rifle. I have a mould that I originally bought for the .30-30. It drops a bullet at about 196 grains. I am using a charge of 13.0 grains of Red Dot. It provides a load that is relatively quiet and has almost no recoil. It provides very cheap practice and long brass life. It allows short range practice to fine tune your position shooting and to familiarize yourself with the rifle.

[444]

Let me also share a humerous story about reloading for the K31. As I mentioned, I have been shooting a lot of Swiss mil-surp ammo. This ammo is very, very accurate and has beautiful brass cases. The cases are top quality, however they are Berdan primed. For those of you that don't reload, we Americans use boxer priming and our loading tools arn't designed to deprime Berdan primed cases. But I just couldn't bring myself to throw these fine cases away. I would bring them home and put them in the tumbler. They would come out with a mirror finish. I finally decided to go all out and I purchased and RCBS tool for depriming Berdan primed cases. The day it arrived I immediately sat down at the bench and deprimed all the surplus cases. The tool worked great. I then resized the cases and was ready for priming. The next morning I called The Old Western Scrounger who I had been told on-line was the only place in the US to get Berdan primers. But appearently Berdan primers come in numerous sizes and they needed to know the dimensions of the primer pocket. I was at work and couldn't get right back to them. In the mean time they went to the SHOT show, so I couldn't call them back for a couple weeks. When I finally got back with them they advised me that they were no longer going to be carrying RWS products and they could not provide the Berdan primers.
So, the project is now on hold. I don't know where to get the primers and have already spent about $60 on the depriming tool.
For me, this was a matter of principal. I just wanted to be able to reload Berdan primed cases. I didn't care if it was cost effective. I didnt' care that reloadable brass was available. I just wanted to be able to re-use those beautiful cases.

[goon]

Yet another thing to add to my collection.
I will warn you gentlemen now, don't ever get a C&R license.
There isn't enough money or storage space to take care of all of my wants.

[Redlg155]

444,

Perhaps this website could be of some help in your quest to reload those berdan primed cases. It is a website dealing with reloading Carcano (http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/ammo/reload.html) ammunition, but I believe a technique employed could be used to reload your 7.5 cases.

Just a bit from the site, again, this is referring to the Carcano case.
The Berdan primer used in Italian Service ammunition is 0.204" (5.18mm) in diameter, which is not a standard size. However, it is a simple matter to enlarge the primer pocket in the Italian cases to accommodate the American 0.210" Boxer primer. The procedure is to bore a central flash hole with a No. 50 (0.070"/1.7780mm) drill, which simultaneously cuts away the Berdan anvil. Then enlarge the primer pocket by boring it out to full depth with a No. 4 (0.209"/5.3086mm) drill with the end ground flat (i.e., a flat bottom drill) so that it can bottom in the primer pocket without cutting appreciably deeper. The pocket is then cleaned out a trifle with a primer pocket reamer to give a perfect force fit for the 0.210" primer. I've used Winchester, Remington and Federal primers with complete satisfaction. All work must be done accurately, preferably in a lathe. This may sound complicated, but it is much easier to me than converting 6.5 MS cases.

Perhaps you experiment with a couple of cases using this technique. You are ok so long as your primer pocket is smaller than a No4 drill bit. Then the standard large rifle primers would fit.

Hope this helps.
Good Shooting
RED

[444]

I have considered doing this, but never went any further. I very well might look into this.
I really appreciate the help.

[444]

I was sitting here after reading your post and remembered that I had the dimensions to those primer pockets sitting on my bathroom sink (yeah, I am single). I measured a diameter of .210 and a depth of .075. Now I am no machinest and I am not sure exactly how precise these measurements are, but it would appear that I might be able to do this by doing nothing more than drilling a central flash hole.

[Don Gwinn]

"Remember, a K31 is not really a Schmidt-"Rubin."

True. It's also not really an oversized flagpole disguised as a rifle!
:neener:

[cratz2]

I was sitting here after reading your post and remembered that I had the dimensions to those primer pockets sitting on my bathroom sink (yeah, I am single).

Ain't that the truth. I laughed out loud when I read that... being married and father of three. :D I can't possibly convey how unlikely that sight would be in this household. :p

[444]

Well, I have been divorced for years now and my house is chaos. You know how you married guys have this argument with your wives ? ; This room is a mess. Yeah but I know where everything is. Well I can tell you after conducting an extensive test on this that it is possible to have a house that looks like a tornado went through it, yet still know exactly where you put everything. When Red brought up using Boxer primers, I KNEW that a month or two ago, I measured and wrote down the dimensions of a 7.5 Swiss primer pocket on the back of a credit card receipt and that night I emptyed my pockets out on the bathroom sink. The paper was right where I left it.

Unfortunately, the Boxer primers are too big. They go into the Berdan primer pocket with very little resistance. I don't think it would work in this case.

[cratz2]

I don't think it would work in this case.

Ha ha... An unintended pun... in this case...

[444]

Yeah, I meant to say that :D

"Unfortunately, the Boxer primers are too big. They go into the Berdan primer pocket with very little resistance. I don't think it would work in this case."

This I said wrong, the primer pocket is too big. The boxer primer can easily be pushed in with your thumb. I don't think it would work very well. It may work with very light loads, but I am not going to chance it. Someday, Graffs will come though with my brass.

[trvlr905]

Well, after reading the posts here and on the Swiss Rifle forums, I went ahead and bought me a coupla K-31s, one for me and one for Pops. Besides, AIM says they're almost out of them and I didn't want to get left out of all the fun. Two rifles for $200 isn't all that bad a deal, is it?

[cratz2]

$100 bucks a pop for K31s ain't bad at all unless they're in the worst condition I've ever seen... which still isn't that bad.

Just went to a small show this weekend and there was a guy with about 10 of 'em lined up. Think they were priced at $150 each. Most guys had no idea what they were. When they caught my attention, I sort of zoomed over to check them out and one guy said something to the effect of, 'ya lak dim space rifles, do ye' or something like that. :p

[444]

I tried to shoot mine today. Stopped at the range on the way home from work to try a new handload. But it was too windy. I managed to get off 8 rounds before my target stand blew over. But, I had one five shot and one three shot groups; one with my handload and one with Norma factory ammo. My handload shot right on the money at 100 yards with the 100 meter sight setting. The Norma shot a little low. I would really like to wring this thing out from the bench. I have been shooting this rifle for a year and never really sat down at a bench and shot groups. I would also like to see just exactly where this rifle hits out to 400 yards compared to the sight settings. A bullets path is not linear. The farther the bullet gets, the faster it drops. But, if you look at the sights on these old military rifles, the distance the rear sight moves between 700 and 800 meters is the same as the distance the sight moves from 100-200 meters. I realize that these extreme range setting on the sights were intended for volley fire, not precise aimed fire. But since I do shoot my rifle out to 400 yards, I need to know where it hits when the sight is set at 400. My plinking load using a cast bullet and 13 grains of Red Dot uses an 800 meter sight setting to hit a steel plate at 200 meters.

[BenW]

I saw that AIM raised their prices this week and Century is almost out of them as well. I'd be curious on condition. TRVLR905 -- a condition report when you receive yours would be great!

[trvlr905]

Will do, BenW. With or without pics?

[cratz2]

With or without pics?

Oh, come on now... you know the answer to that! :p

[Handy]

Hey, this would make a great match to my Swiss Army knife.


444-

On the sight issue, you stated that the sight increments are all the same. That doesn't necessarily mean the elevation increments are the same. With sight of that style, the closer you get to the front pivot, the more elevation you get per increment. For instance, 200 to 300 meters might only move the sight arm 5 degrees. But the difference between 700 and 800 meters is 15 degrees.

Take a look, I may be wrong.


On another note, I don't suppose it would be worth it to glue the primer in place? Something a little rubbery might survive firing.

[BenW]

Will do, BenW. With or without pics?
What cratz2 said. :)

[444]

I called Graf & Sons today and found out that they are going to get their shipment of 7.5 Swiss brass in August. It is going to have a Graf & Sons headstamp. They are also getting 7.62x54R brass; same as above. They also mentioned that they do sometimes carry Berdan primers, but don't have what I need right now.
So, I am going to have to make due with the 50 or so cases I have now and keep paying outrageous prices for surplus stuff.

[BenW]

August! :( Oh the pain....the pain. I should mosey on over to their website and see if they're taking pre-orders. I betchya that brass is not going to last long.

[444]

Oh yeah, I already had mine ordered for awhile.

[0007]

Just re-read my earlier post. What I meant to say was that I was going to have both of mine re-chambered to 7.62X51. "K-31" over on the AW board threatened to have me booted out of the '31 owners club over that one, but I figured that doing this will sure make finding(and buying)ammo a whole lot easier. He also said that it's OK to do this on the K-31, but NOT, REPEAT, NOT, on the original Scmidt-Rubin. Can't wait to try them after the job is done. For those really interested in the Swiss rifles, K-31 moderates a forum, Swiss rifles.com. All sorts of good info there.

[Handy]

How do you rechamber to the shorter .308 case?

[Tamara]

I'm no gunsmith, but I'm guessing it would just be a matter of setting the barrel back and recutting the chamber.

[Handy]

Ah!

No gunsmith either. I didn't know you could just screw the barrel in a couple more milimeters. That sounds alot smarter than my old chamber insert idea (which likely wouldn't work any way, the two cases too close in size).

If it's that simple, I would do it in a heartbeat. I haven't heard anything that suggests that there are any 7.5 advantages over good ol' cheap .308.

I can understand the collector wincing, but an $88 rifle can't be that much of a collectors item.

Anybody else have an idea if this is do-able?

[Tamara]

I didn't know you could just screw the barrel in a couple more milimeters.

The trick, of course, is how much room is there on the barrel shank? This would determine cost more than feasibility, as some milling operations on the barrel shank could always provide more room to play with...

(Again, this is all from fuzzy recollections of conversations with folks who do this kind of thing for a living. ... I wonder if my .300 Whisper Turk is done yet, durn it! ;) )

[Art Eatman]

The barrel has to be set back by full turns, if you have any sort of fixed sights, or don't want to drill and tap new holes for other sights. You can cut additional threads with a lathe, as necessary. The back face is turned off on the lathe, and then the new chamber is reamed.

Proper equipment and a little practice, and it's an everyday sort of deal.

Art

[k31]

Well, Art, the part that's not an "every day deal" is actually removing the barrel. I'm a machinist as well as a smith, and I can tell you that its anything but easy.
Once removed, however, you can cut and rechamber for .308. I'll never understand why anyone would want to do it, but the k31 makes an amazing .308.

Consider that the Schmidt Rubin series/types were designed around a cartridge. A specific cartridge that works with the deisgn, barrel, twist and length. I have a good number of k11s, 1911s, k31s, PE57s, AMTs and, of course, the venerable zfk3155 Sniper Rifle.
My specialty for the last 40 years or so has been load development for all of the Swiss rifles beginning with the 1911. My logbooks are filled with data. I also have a factory 1911 in .308. I developed a special load that makes it, like it's .308 Swiss brothers, a moa rifle.
Lots of years. Lots of powder and lots of projectiles.
The 7.5Swiss/k31 combination outshoots any military issue rifle I've ever had in my arsenal. Its the only cartridge/rifle combination in the world that was developed one for the other.

Oddly enough, the factory offered the k31 in 7.5 Swiss, .308, 30-06 and 300 Winchester magnum back in the 60s. That tells you the the receiver will handle those pressures.

Load safely and good shooting.

k31

[Tamara]

I have a good number of k11s, 1911s, k31s, PE57s, AMTs and, of course, the venerable zfk3155 Sniper Rifle.

...and I hate you for it.

Nothing personal, you lucky so-and-so.


;) :D

[Handy]

A specific cartridge that works with the deisgn, barrel, twist and length.

Is this to imply that the rifling and barrel length would be inappropriate for .308? What is the twist rate of a K31?

I can think of lots of reasons to convert an inexpensive rifle to shoot a different accurate, powerful and plentiful cartridge.

[0007]

Admit it, you just hate the idea of some evil-doer with "re-designs" on your Swiss rifles... :neener: Good to see that you got my post on the other board and dropped over for a visit.

[k31]

It's 1 in 11. There's nothing at all wrong with the rate of twist where the .308 is concerned. You'll just have to find an appropriate load.
Let me know what load works for you after the conversion.
etp, I know a little lady who might chastise you for messin' with the old man! heh.................

k31

[0007]

Handy et al - The way I make a chamber shorter is to throw money at my 'smith until he says"It's finished." :D

[Tamara]

Well, the main reason I don't convert my 96/11 is that I'm already $200 bucks or so into the rifle. Were I to convert it to .308, I may as well just have bought an M77, M700 or Model 70 in .308 in the first place, from a dollar standpoint... ;) But, you know, whatever floats your boat. Some folks like leaving the old warhorses intact as the pieces of history they are; some like re-barelling, re-stocking, scoping and whatnot...

Besides, the market is all ate up with relatively cheap Swiss and Portugee 7.5 at the moment...