[ezypikns]

Clint Smith in the latest 'Guns' magazine makes the statement that a rifle is the best choice for home defense. I always figured that a short barrelled shotgun with buckshot might be best.
I live in Dallas, where most homes have a fairly largee front and back yard, with some space between them. Wouldn't a rifle tend to give way too much over penetration, even in a place like this?
Having said that, I'm thinking about an SKS as a general shooter. If a rifle would be suitable for home defense, what kind of choice would an SKS be?
Is there ammo for the SKS (or any other rifle) which would be more suitable for use in a non-rural area?

Thanks for any comments.

[Hawkmoon]

I scanned that article, but since I already have a rifle and no shotgun I just sort of thought "Cool" and forgot about it.

Clint usually makes a lot of sense, and my recollection is that he explained his reasons in the article. You make it sound like he just tossed that nugget out there with no explantion or rationalization.

On the penetration issue, consider that 00 buck is essentially a whole bunch of 32 caliber bullets all coming out at once. What kind of wall do you think that is NOT going to penetrate? If you haven't read up on the penetration issue, check out www.boxotruth.com and then come back to ask about overpenetration.

Residential walls are concealment, not cover.

[jlwatts3]

A rifle will have overpenetration in a normal residence. So will buckshot or a pistol, but to a lesser extent.
I think a rifle would be good for HD if you live in a rural area with plenty of space between you and the next house. This has to be reconsidered if you have family members asleep in the house who could be endangered by stray rounds.

[joab]

Col Cooper preferred a 20ga shotgun loade with birdshot for home, especially apt, defense IINM

[Intelguy01]

No way. Unless you're using a "12 gauge" rifle, of course. :D

Just my two cents...

[Strings]

While not technically a rifle, my Storm stays loaded in the bedroom, along with my M9...

[Greybeard]

I've not seen the article, but guessin' Clint suggesting semi-auto .223s ... Care to share what he said?

[MTMilitiaman]

A carbine would typically offer greater range, accuracy, and magazine capacity than either a handgun or a shotgun. The main concerns would be overpenetration and blast/flash, both of which would be minimized with proper ammunition selection. With proper ammunition selection, a carbine could also offer less recoil than the shotgun, and, when necessary, could quickly offer more penetration if barriers or body armor needed to be penetrated. Something like Hornady TAP might be in order to reduce penetration with some FMJs kept handy for rare occassions when you actually need to shoot through something. I keep a .45 and a Romanian AK clone next to my bed. The .45 is for if I don't have time to get the AK up--like an intruder coming through the window at the head of my bed or me awakening to an intruder already in my room. Other than that, a 30 round magazine of hollow points will do the job.

[mete]

Contrary to popular opinion the 233 ,with proper bullets penetrates less than some of the handgun bullets.That's due to expansion and tumbling. The best for that use is the Federal 40 gr bullet.

[Cosmoline]

Overpenetration should be far less of a concern than actually hitting (and stopping) what you're aiming at. A good carbine is several orders of magnitude more powerful and accurate than ordinary handguns, and with the right expanding bullets poses no more overpenetration concerns. For some weird reasons (probably Sillywood movies) a lot of otherwise smart people have gotten it into their heads that a handgun is the first and best choice for home defense. The handgun should only be viewed as a concealable weapon you use to get you to your rifle.

As far as SKS ammo, Corbon makes some good 7.62x39 loadings. I wouldn't trust Wolf SP's without some testing first. Their 54R rounds are OK, but I haven't heard any field reports from their 39 sp loadings. My concern would be that they fail to expand. Corbon certainly will expand, and one hit will likely be more than enough.

[Kharn]

You never know when you may need the precision of a rifle, such as a dog running around the neighborhood threatening kids but wont get close enough for you to use buckshot. I keep my M4 right next to my HD shotgun, 2 20s on-hand.

Kharn

[thereisnospoon]

I always thought your pistol was what you carrried when a rifle was out of the question.

I recently purchased .45 carbine (Thompson clone) for this purpose, replacing BOTH my pistol and scattergun in the bedroom. I guess if 30 rounds of .45 won't get it done, nothing else will. Short and compact for use inside, and a little range if needed. However, once "outside" I don't believe I have the right to shoot any longer...would one of th LEOs comment please...so the idea of having a rifle for "range" is questionable in my mind. Stopping power? Yes. Range...hmmmmmm :scrutiny:

Overpenetration?

Do you have a code red plan with your family, so that each individual knows what to do and were to go, so that they will be less likely to be hit by any stray rounds?

While this is not, by itslef, the only answer, it can help reduce the chance of FF accidents.
Also, if I remeber correctly during the "infamous" Miami shootout between federal officers and PLatt and his buddy, wasn't the .223 he (Platt) was using stopped by the officer's arm, saving his life? Doesn't sound like anything that is going to overpenetrate to me.

Now a .308 rifle? I would worry... :what:

[Godfather]

I'm lucky, I sleep in a concrete-lined basement.

I have an SKS and several stripper clips of HP's nearby.

Wolf ammo in an SKS is very reliable. I've put well over 1,000 round of Wolf FMJ and HP through mine, and it always goes where I want it to and hasn't jammed yet. I read in a recent Shooting Times one of the authors was testing a new AK-M type carbine, and in the field report, Wolf FMJ's and Wolf SP's were the two most accurate 7.62x39 loads.


You can keep shooting out of the home in Colorado, I believe, where you can use deadly force to defend your property. Other than that, it'd have to be a "in fear of you/other's life" thing.


As for the original question, get a 7.62 Krinkov with a folding stock. If you're afraid of overpenetration, load it with frangibles, and always shoot for center-mass.

[Zach S]

The thompson actually isnt a bad idea. Low recoil, low noise, high capacity. But I dont know where you got compact unless you purchased a SBR. At around 13 lbs or so, it could make for a very effective club if for some odd reason, 30 rounds aint enough...

I assume that the DA WILL make a big deal about it if worst comes to worst, and after making this assumption mine was my primary HD gun anyway (now I stick with the 590, with my thompsons and AR within reach).

The range kinda sucks compared to a .223. Well, "kinda sucks" in a major understatement, but for home defense it shouldnt be an issue. But keep an AR handy just in case you're getting shot at by folks that are out of reach of the tommygun.

Dont be afraid to try hollowpoints, they feed in mine.

[LaEscopeta]

In addition to the great www.boxotruth.com site, here are 2 others wall penetration test site:

http://www.huts.com/Huts'sBallisticTest.htm

http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-2002-03.pdf

[WT]

I gather the .223 is a good round for home defense.

Didn't the FBI publish a test where they found the .223 was less penetrative of walls than even some handgun rounds?

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Living out in the boonies I prefer a rifle for H/D, then a shotgun then my pistol.

But it usually depends on the given situation.

Just general bump in the night investigatory poking about I’ll grab my trusty SIG P229ST 9mm with Surefire M3

But if the hairs on my neck really stand up or I feel I may have to venture outside I grab the ole AK w/ folder and 30 rounder and go inspecting.

[TallPine]

TFW +1

I live on 40 acres and most of the neighboring properties are even larger. Because of the hills, only one other residence is even visible and it is almost a mile away.

So I keep a pack of "Wolves" ready to turn loose if necessary ;)

[chopinbloc]

i read an article once that reference an fbi study that said 55gr 5.56 ammo had the lowest wounding potential, after traveling through interior walls, of all the ammo tested. iirc the other ammo tested was 180gr .40, 230gr .45, 115gr 9mm, #00 12ga and i think a few others. without the paperwork for aow or sbr a rifle can have a shorter legal barrel length than a shotgun, making for better maneuverability, but ultimately i think a rifle, especially scary black ones, wouldn't play as well in court.

[Fred Fuller]

If Clint Smith wants to come sack out in our spare room to take over guard duty, he is welcome to bring whatever armament he wants for the task. But for as long as I have the responsibility, the handiest long gun in the house will be one of several short barrelled 12 ga. 870s. It happens we like shotguns, doesn't mean Clint is wrong in his choice- or anyone else either for that matter. Clint is probably more dangerous with a sharp stick than I am with a shotgun, fortunately I doubt Clint (or anyone else as good as he is) will ever be trying to kick in my door at 0dark30 some fine morning with evil intent.

Of course, there is an AR carbine with a mounted light and a spare 20-round magazine in a butt pouch on the pegs in one hidey hole just in case it is needed outside- but it is not my go-to gun for things that go bump in the night. We live 'way out in the country and it's a long way to anywhere outside, thus the AR. But at close range, IMO nothing beats a shotgun, all other things being equal.

lpl/nc

[benEzra]

Police Marksman published a study demonstrating that .223 SP and JHP had less wounding potential after exiting a wall than handgun rounds. The author (Gary Roberts, as I recall) unfortunately didn't even bother giving the reader much information about the ballistic performance of 40-gr and 55-gr JHP's--being of the "deep penetration" school of thought, he dismissed them a priori as being "not suitable for law enforcement use under any circumstances" due to their lesser penetration, and didn't feel it was worth his time to give the reader that info, but it's an otherwise excellent article.

Federal 40-grain JHP's have been used by SWAT teams from time to time specifically to limit overpenetration in building materials.

Personally, my mini-14 is loaded with a magazine of Federal 40-grain JHP's, and I have another magazine of 55 gr JHP's if I ever want something a little heavier. Both are less penetrative in building materials than 115-gr 9mm JHP, as I recall.

[Essex County]

I live in a log cabin with no imediate neighbors. As much as I love my AR's, I'll grab a shotgun first. to me a handgun would be my LAST choice...... Essex

[Moonclip]

Depends where you live and the layout and such. For defense of a business at one time I would keep around sometimes instead of a shotgun a Marlin Camp 45 or a M1 carbine with Winchester hollow soft points.

At one time due to threats to business partner from a ex boyfriend of his girlfriend that did turn out to be idle threats though I kept a SKS loaded with Russian hollowpoints handy as well.

[Ala Dan]

Um! Proly need to load my 233 (see previous post above) with some
of those Hornady TAP cartridges, cuz I'm concerned 'bout over penetration. :uhoh:

[MasterPiece Arms.com]

An SKS for home defense? Are you kidding? 1. It only has 10 round capacity (hi cap retrofits are hardly consistent and the 30 rd mags look like they were made by a high school shop class); 2. the SKS barrel is longer than an AK's and would be no fun moving around corners (the SKS was made to be an accurate medium distance battle rifle).

The whole point of a home defense gun is maneuverability within that home. Unless your home is devoid of doors, walls, stairs, furniture, appliances etc, and you live in a big open boxy warehouse, I will never fully understand why people are drawn to long guns for home defense. I think it stems from machismo and the feeling that bigger MUST be better.

The shotgun is even a worse home defense weapon because of it's extremely low capacity PLUS long length and impossible accuracy (peppering your kid who happens to be standing by or behind the burgular is really stupid). Unless it's a street sweeper, the shotgun is an atrocious choice tactically for home defense. Some will defend the use of a shotgun for home defense until the cows come home. After years of arguing with these well meaning folks, I've noticed what their main error is: they have it backwards. A shotgun is good for OFFENSIVE entry, which is why the marines will have one guy with a 12 ga when they enter homes in Iraq, who is backed up of course, with several men with M-16s. For DEFENSE, the shotgun has numerous fatal flaws.

Anyway, as far as using a rifle for HD, the ultimate is an short barreled AK with folding stock. An AK pistol is basically the same concept and would be my preferred choice.

Of course you can overpenetrate with nearly any firearm, but rifles magnify that problem X 10.

I have purposefully typecast myself as a MAC nut, so predictably, I use a MAC-11 9mm with barrel extension (which aids in control) and a 30 rd Sten mag for home defense. It can be maneuvered around anything almost like it's a natural extension of one's arm. The barrel extension also serves as a big flash hider which will be appreciated in dark situations.

People frequently assume that there would be only one intruder, and/or that you'll get him with the first shot.

[ReadyontheRight]

If you really need to shoot someone in your home. What does it really matter?

Pick any good weapon and learn to use it. An SKS falls into the "good weapon" category. With the additional benefit of being inexpensive in both capital and operating cost.

[entropy]

Some will defend the use of a shotgun for home defense until the cows come home.

Even after. When asked what scared them the most when breaking and entering, convicted felons in a prison survey did NOT respond with, "The sound of a MAC-11 being cocked." :rolleyes: They responded with "The sound of a pump shotgun."

I have an 870 as my first-string HD weapon because it will go off when I pull the trigger, and I'm good with one. And the psychological impact is a factor that, if I ever have a situation where I need my 870, I hope will negate my ever having to fire.

People frequently assume that there would be only one intruder, and/or that you'll get him with the first shot.

You drop the first one with a 12 ga., all you'll see of the rest is tail ends and elbows.

And for Pete's sake, if you are going to use an SMG for HD, at least use the best: the HK MP5SD. ;)

The level of training involved in using an SMG for HD is for most, a far cry from reality. I have had the training, (MOUT with an MP5SD) and still prefer an 870.

My brother-in-law insisted on a rifle for HD, even after I tried to get him into a shotgun, so I advised him to get a pistol-calibered rifle. He got a Marlin 9mm Camp Gun, and it was a good choice. He has since added a Glock 9mm.

[realmswalker]

what about an m1 carbine? short, light with decent enough stopping power.

[MasterPiece Arms.com]

"what about an m1 carbine? short, light with decent enough stopping power."

If it had a folding stock and a flash hider, I'd say an M1 carbine is an EXCELLENT choice for HD, especially based on the qualifications I've previously mentioned.

"entropy," who said ANYTHING about a SMG? I didn't. You are assuming my MAC-11 is full auto and it IS NOT. Full auto for HD is so far out of the realm of practical I can't believe you made that assumption.

Also, this "I'm gonna scare the bad guy with the 'sound' of my shotgun being racked" stuff, is one of the most flat out dangerous, hollywood induced pieces of bad information that persists in the gun community. WHERE do I begin with that one?!

1. A bad guy hearing you rack your shotgun MAY run off, or he may realize that your magazine is not at full capacity anymore (if it ever was).

2. Trying to scare the bad guy with sound effects is NOT a tactical move, it's theatrics.

By the way, hostage situations in home invasion scenarios (the bg has your wife or kid at knifepoint) makes a shotgun usless and the bg can successfully order you to drop your gun. I actually remember a news story where a homeowner shot and killed a home invader WHILE the bad guy was holding his wife hostage.

P.S. How did your brother in law get a Marlin Camp-9? It must be used because Marlin stopped making them didn't they? If he likes that Camp 9, he'll LOVE Masterpiece Arms' MAC-11 9mm CARBINE: takes sten mags, has a compensator and front end pistol grip!

[benEzra]

Just a thought, but if the intruder hears you rack the shotgun, then IMHO you let the bad guy get too close to you while you were holding an unloaded gun, unless he has good hearing...

I agree the sound is intimidating, though. Maybe if you could get one of those Hollywood shotguns that makes a racking sound every time you pick it up... :D

[MechAg94]

I live in a townhome. Overpenetration is definitely an issue. However, I have a couple of revolvers that I can use to fight off intruders until I can get my safe open. I guess I need to get that mag extension for my 870 Express.

[Eightball]

To echo others (who are probably more knowledgeable than myself), the folding-stock M1 carbine seems perfect for the job. Everyone is saying it's a "weak" round--perfect for indoors, I would assume. And, the folding-stock versions can ususally be had at gun shows if you look hard enough (saw about 20 of them throughout a show a little while back). Bigger/better than a regular handgun, but smaller than an SKS (which, IMHO, would suck to clear a house with.....that puppy is loooooong...but it does have a bayonet :D ). Just my opinion.

[Werewolf]

The handgun should only be viewed as a concealable weapon you use to get you to your rifle.The above statement - often made on THR - strikes me as - well - OK - I can't say it this being the High Road and all.

1st off where the hell is the rifle that you'd have to fight your way to it? Makes no sense at all. I imagine lots of folks could give lotsa reasons why it's not close at hand in a home defense situation but they're all BS. Your HD weapon of choice should be close at hand at all times. If one chooses to use a rifle for home defense :rolleyes: then keep it at your bedside or where ever you happen to be while at home. Fighting your way to your rifle while in your home... Puhleeeze. :rolleyes:

2nd - in the unlikely event that one does have to fight (ROFLMAO) his/her way to the rifle by the time you get to it having had to fight your way there you've probably eliminated the threat (in your physical home - not talking about defending the 40 here). If not it seems likely to me that you're up feces creek and that rifle isn't gonna be much of a paddle.

3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that. I won't go over the reasons we've all heard them a thousand times before.

4th - Home Defense is not the same as 40 acre defense. Homes are closed in with hallways, closets, small rooms and open spaces. In that environment a short barreled shotgun or a handgun rules if one has to move - if not then I suppose a rifle would be OK but IMO if you're gonna hunker down and wait for the BG's at inside the home ranges then a shotgun loaded with #4 shot would be even better.

If one is defending his 40 then a rifle is the best tool to to do it with - otherwise it just gets old reading that:The handgun should only be viewed as a concealable weapon you use to get you to your rifle. :barf:

[Cosmoline]

3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that. I won't go over the reasons we've all heard them a thousand times before.

The reasons have been brought up, and debunked, time and time and time again. Overpenetration is exaggerated, and as has been pointed out there's actually a GREATER problem of overpenetration with many handgun rounds or buckshot than with a proper HD rifle bullet. Besides, every time you miss with a short gun, you send a bullet going lord-knows-where.

If you really think you're going to be more accurate and lethal with a handgun than a carbine in close quarters--more power to you. But most of us know the carbine is vastly superior in every respect.

As far as fighting your way to a long gun, I don't mean shooting and doing a TJ Hooker roll. I mean using the handgun to cover you until you get to your long gun, then taking the long gun and proceeding.

A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON
A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON
A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON

Learn it, live it, love it.

If you're going to go INTO a dangerous situation, whether that's in your house or on some battlefield, you should always have a long gun at your shoulder whenever possible. There's a very good reason soldiers don't go into battle with sidearms. The ONLY exceptions over the past THREE HUNDRED YEARS of warfare I know of were the tunnel rats, and they only used 1911's because they were going into very, very confined spaces. Spaces far more confined than anyone's home.

" Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it. "
Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw Ghetto, April 23, 1943

[Werewolf]

As far as fighting your way to a long gun, I don't mean shooting and doing a TJ Hooker roll. I mean using the handgun to cover you until you get to your long gun, then taking the long gun and proceeding.And in what type of scenario in a typical home would one ever have to use a handgun to cover himself while moving to the long gun? That is what I find to be utterly rediculous.

Homes aren't barns! They are closed in and comparmentalized spaces. If one is good enough to defend oneself with a handgun while moving from one space to another to retrieve a rifle one is good enough to use the handgun to finish the job. Why make the task more difficult by trying to move to and retrieve a rifle while in a life threatening situation.

If one must use a rifle then keep it with you or within reach while at home. Better yet use a short barreled shotgun for CQB.

OTOH it's probably best to use the weapon each is most comfortable with whether it is the best choice for the environment or not. I wouldn't choose a rifle in an HD situation, I'd choose a 18 or 20" barreled shotgun 1st, a semi-auto pistol 2nd and a revolver 3rd. The only way I'd use a rifle would be if it was the only thing close at hand.

From having served on 3 different USN ship's self defense forces (team leader on one) my experience tells me that a rifle in a home defense (read closed in compartmentalized) situation is a non-starter.

Each team I was on had 6 to 10 guys. Generally there were 2 shotguns, 2 M-14's and the rest 1911's issued. I hated having the M-14. It was too heavy and too long. The shotgun was better but not by much. The pistol was my choice and when I became team leader while on CG-20 USS R.K. Turner that's what I carried. We practiced all the time hunting down intruders and based on that experience there's no freaking way I'd ever use a rifle (even a carbine) for HD.

[Cosmoline]

And in what type of scenario in a typical home would one ever have to use a handgun to cover himself while moving to the long gun? That is what I find to be utterly rediculous.

It's simple. Assuming your handgun is closer to you, you pick it up and have it at the ready while you move to wherever your long guns are. If you have your long guns near you, skip this step. Not complicated at all. The handgun is a defensive weapon who's only real advantage is concealability and ease of transport.

Homes aren't barns! They are closed in and comparmentalized spaces. If one is good enough to defend oneself with a handgun while moving from one space to another to retrieve a rifle one is good enough to use the handgun to finish the job. Why make the task more difficult by trying to move to and retrieve a rifle while in a life threatening situation.

A carbine is no more difficult to use in a house than a handgun. In fact it's a lot easier. If you're in a situation where you may need to use a firearm, you want to be using your most accurate and lethal firearm. Very simple.

From having served on 3 different USN ship's self defense forces (team leader on one) my experience tells me that a rifle in a home defense (read closed in compartmentalized) situation is a non-starter.

I'd suggest that a ship, with hatchways, lots of men and narrow aisles to move around, is a lot more confining than a typical American home. Most modern homes have hallways and doorways large enough to move major appliances through. And an M-14 is no carbine.

[Burt Blade]

The right gun is the one you can use in the dark, groggy from having just been startled awake, that fires reliably 100% of the time, that you can hit with at will.

Only after all that do you then consider caliber, etc.

A champion trapshooter is probably better off with an over-and-under shotgun than a pistol he hardly uses. The highpower rifle shooter is better off with her .308 than a shotgun that she never uses. The Cowboy Action Shooter might wisely favor a lever-action in .45 Colt, over a Glock that is seldom taken out of the nightstand. That .22 plinker you shoot 200 times every Saturday is likely to be more deadly than the gun-rag 'fighting supergun' you bought last month.

No single sheetrock wall in your home is likely to stop any stray round, so "over penetration" is not a major issue, compared to "useable without thought or stoppage".

You get the idea. Your weapon has to work. You have to be able to work it under extremely unfavorable conditions. Only after that is type, caliber, etc, relevant.

[esldude]

Kudo's Burt Blade!!! :o

Best response in this thread.

[roo_ster]

I'll expect any cartridge I fire (with the exception of shotgun birdshot) will go through every thickness drywall until stopped by the brick on the outside of the house. These "low penetration" 5.56mm rounds still penetrate several thicknesses of drywall, ususally enough that the 5.56mm round would hit the outside brick. Knowing my shot & bleeding kid caught a tumbling lower velocity 5.56 projectile somehow is cold comfort. That is a big, "Not Good Enough."

It boils down to knowing where your family members are and not firing if their location is in line with the intruder and your weapon, be it pistol, shotgun, or rifle. Know your backstop.

In my situation, we have to worry about kids getting their fingers on the firearms. That makes a pistol in the quick-open pistol safe the best answer. A long gun out & loaded is a non-starter.

A magazine-fed carbine with the mag in the quick-access safe holds some allure, as does a 20gs SxS shotgun with a few rounds of birdshot in the safe. (That safe is getting mighty crowded by about this time.) Both magazine carbine and SxS would be slower to bear than a handgun.

Last, what about your spouse or responsible older child? What weapon(s) might they be competent with? I've spent more time toting M16A2s & M4A1s than just about anything else, but my wife hasn't and doesn't know what S.P.O.R.T.S. stands for. She is most familiar with the 1911 manual of arms and I'm passing fair with one. We both know the failure drills and are comfortable with the 1911, so that is what we use.

[mons meg]

You guys, esp. Burt Blade just reminded me....need to buy a bayonet for my Mossberg 590. I may suck rocks as far as hitting with the shotgun, but I *will* sink the blade...

Another thought, is bathing in the enemy's....I mean intruder's blood going to reflect poorly on me in the police report?

[Burt Blade]

Fix Bayonets!
Forward, at the double!
Charge!


A couple I know favor edged weapons. Hubby keeps a Katana beside the bed. His wife favors an axe, or a Kukri. (And both are quite proficient in the proper use of those items.)

I really do not want to see the aftermath of that close encounter.

[Rickstir]

I have an AK in my Master Bedroom. Just the wife and I, no kids, nothing "downrange" except by big-screen TV :what: I have other weapons for HD and we do live out in the boonies, so a rifle for me means self defense at a distance.

[Skunkabilly]

Maybe if you could get one of those Hollywood shotguns that makes a racking sound every time you pick it up...

My Beretta can do that.

[Brian Williams]

Gimme a 1894C in 357 and 158grLSWCGC. Short, quick, light and fast on target.

[Nathanael_Greene]

I agree with Brian Williams.

But in deference to others, I'll need two of those Marlin carbines.

One that I can use as I fight my way to the other one...

Seriously (and I mean it; I'm genuinely curious), how many extended firefights take place within homes?

Years ago, I had an apartment broken into while I was in it, and the whole incident couldn't have taken more than a few seconds (though it seemed to to take forever). (And no, I didn't shoot the intruder.)

[entropy]

I made the assumption that the MAC-11 mentioned was full auto because it was never stated that it wasn't. Perhaps SM-11 would be a better term for it.(Nothing wrong with an SP-89, then, either! :D ) My brother-in-law did indeed buy a used Marlin; he did so because he did not want a 'military' looking weapon. (I had suggested the Kel-Tec and the Ruger 9mm carbines also.)
As for shotgun for HD, unless one keeps it loaded, you're going to have to load it while they are in or just outside trying to get in. I wouldn't rely on their hearing that to stop them, but it just might. I have two younger children at home, so keeping it loaded is a nogo. I have arrangned it so I can be ready for action quickly, yet safe as far as kids are concerned. And for those concerned about barrel-grabbers, I'll quote Clint Smith:"Then he'd better hang on, because I am going to light him up, and it will be an E-Ticket ride!" PS: Re the wife held by BG: The maximum range inside I would be firing is 8 yards (measured) My 19" cyl. bore with my HD load has a spread of 3.5 in. If he is hiding behind her so much I can't get a shot, he probably can't either. Besides, she can take a flyer pellet or two for the team, right? :evil:

[taliv]

i can understand both sides of the rifle/pistol argument, but what's got me stumped is why everyone needs a folding stock on their carbine.

are you people advocating defending your house with the stock folded or extended?

if you're in your house, i don't see why you would need a folder.

[Dr.Rob]

a .22 cal rifle will do in a pinch if it's all you have... it's not the 'best' arm.. nor in my opinion is a 30 round poodle shooter full of SS109.

The best feature of the semi auto carbine OR shotgun is the ease of using it with one hand while using a phone, checking a door, etc...

A pistol caliber carbine or M1 Carbine might be ideal... but I'd still go for a shotgun.

[TallPine]

The best feature of the semi auto carbine OR shotgun is the ease of using it with one hand
To me the best feature of a semi-auto is being able to load and unload in an instant, as the situation in the house changes: day/night, at home/gone, etc

I usually keep my rifle with the mag loaded and bolt locked open so all I have to do is pull and release the bolt handle to make it "hot"

But if I want to leave or something I just have to yank out the magazine to unload it. Sure a lot more convenient than a lever action.

All the BS that the hoplophobes rant about semi-autos and removable magazines, but I consider that to be a "safety feature ;)

[TallPine]

reliability problems
In an AK ????? :neener:

(Saiga)

[Roadkill]

I keep a 20" Rossi Stagecoach 12ga loaded with 00 buck, seven more in a stock holder, and twenty five in a belt beside the bed. Pull the hammers back, ready to shoot. Simple, can feel it in the dark. No mechanical action required. Pull hammers back, pull trigger, open, remove, insert shells, repeat. I aslo have a Beretta 96 .40 with two extra magazines, 180 jhp. That's a combined 34 rounds of 00 and thirty one rounds of .40. I shoot and play with all my other rifles, pistols, ect, but the 12 ga has not left the house in 25 years. I shoot the Beretta every time I go to stay proficient with it. Regarding a rifle, I would choose my Ak or M1 Carbine as the next choice, the AK first.

rk

[onrhander]

My frist HD gun was a SKS Sporter :what: (aka Paratrooper). 18" barrel,thumbhole stock,takes AK mags. :evil: Now becuse of grandchildren, it's a .45 on belt/nite stand. ;) Still works. :D

[MountainPeak]

I live in an area where over penetration wouldn't be a problem. No offense to Clint, but I'm secure and happy with my 12 gauge with #4 buckshot and my KZ45 as my home defense weapons.

[Mannlicher]

I prefer my Bushmaster AR over anything else. My reasons are sufficient for me. I don't really mind others having a different opinion at all.

[Don't Tread On Me]

What a bunch of nonsense.


I despise all this talk about the whole penetration issue. Law Enforcement DOES NOT USE the .223 because it penetrates less than a 9mm. If they really cared about penetration, they'd be using frangible ammo to *help* control penetration in residential walls/barriers.


Chances are, they use the .223 because it has better terminal effects on perps and comes in a less expensive AR platform vs. MP5.


Anyways,

Shotguns are terrible for home defense. When I say home defense, I mean inside a home. Not defending the ranch.


What you want is high capacity, good "killing power", low recoil, fast follow up shots, and light weight/manuverability.


For that, your best bet is either an AK or an AR.

1] High capacity - I dunno about you, but I don't intend on shooting just once. Which is better? 30 round magazine or 6 rounds in a shotgun/revolver?

2] Damage - It is a simple matter of fact, rifle rounds do more damage than pistol rounds.

3] Low recoil - the lower the recoil, the better you can deliver multiple shots to a more precise area. Again, emphasis on more than 1 shot. In a desperate panic situation, who says you will score a hit in 1 shot? Let the internet cowboys live in a dream world. Low recoil = speed. Speed is more important than damage.

4] Manuverability. A 44" gun isn't going to be handy in hallways or in the home. This is where the AK, AR and even M1 Carbine dominate.


Best choice would be an AR-15 in a carbine config or M4 with collapsing stock. Keep it short, keep it simple. Next would be an AK. Only thing you give up with the AK is some recoil issues vs. AR. Not much. If you want and must have the handiest, M1 Carbine. Although a pistol round, it's decent. Fast, low recoil. Great for homes.



IF anything, I WANT OVERPENETRATION. If the SOB is in my kitchen, I want a round that will go through the wall and through my solid wood cabinets. Certain parts of walls have many studs, I want a round that will clear that with minimal deflection and minimal loss of power.


I am not looking to be PC. I am not looking to be Mr. Nice. I want to deliver as much lead at the bad guy as possible as quickly as possible. Everything else is BS. Quick and blinding violence my friends.

[LooseGrouper]

Don't Tread on Me

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on the "Shotguns are terrible for home defense" point of view.

If you are looking for single round effectivness at inside-the-home distance, I don't think there is anything that could be more devistating than a 12 guage slug. At least nothing thats not in the .50BMG range or the Class III family.

Also, I agree that I'd want as much ammo as I could get, but if you can't nuetralize a threat with six rounds of slugs or 000 at 15 feet, chances are you're already deceased.

I understand how you can advocate a rifle over a shotgun. I just can't fathom how you can justify calling it a "terrible" option...and I'm not even much of a shotgun advocate. I use a mini-30 backed up by a 686 (just for reference).

LG

[rudolf]

there's another thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143150 with a link to a picture of a US soldier clearing house in Iraq. Now that is imminent danger. What's his choice?. He's got a M16 hanging around his kneck, I bet he's go a M9 on hist belt. He's using a Mossberg 590 shotgun. I'll take his advice.

And for some further thought, a shotgun is much easier to aim when the light is bad. I have a single shot with no sights, not even a bead. I can still stay on a UIT pistol target at 25 yards using slugs just by aiming over the barrel. Being able to aim over the barrel is a big advantage over a Pistol or M16 Type in the Dark. And this can be done with most pumps.

As to 30 shot capacity or whatever, if there are five armed peaple in your house, you will shoot at most two before you are shot.

[Travis McGee]

For home defense, nothing beats a claymore bag full of offensive frag grenades. With straightened pins. Just lob them down the hall.

Seriously, it's 90 percent shooter, and 10 percent gun, IMHO. For that matter, a nervous little dog as an early warning system backed by almost any reliable firearm beats any Rambo special out of reach, when you are awakened too late by a stealthy intruder.

Interesting thread though.

[Cesiumsponge]

The fact of the matter is...if you miss a human target inside a home, its more than likely going to go through a few walls minimum no matter what firearm you use or ammunition selection to my knowledge. I did however read on a 12ga shotshell design that supposedly penetrates one wall and falls down a few feet later, but I can't seem to dig up the link...seemed fishy.

I feel the statement made about shooting through walls into the kitchen can be negligent if you live in a suburban area where the "desired overpenetration" stated could overpenetrate your house into your neighbor's home and in turn penetrate them. Granted I don't know the area or homestead Tread On Me's resides in, but that statement won't work for all of us; it certainly won't work for me.

Reasoning that maximum penetration is wanted would be dangerous to some of us and contradict "know what is beyond your target" but a lot of lines of reasoning in high-stress live/death situations are simplified to fight-or-flight. Overpenetration in an apartment or suburban situation requires one to think about his or her fellow man. If you live in the boonies, it might be more acceptable to clear hallways with .50BMG and have no seconds thoughts in intimidating a robber with a 40lb piece of high-powered steel. :neener:

With that being said, informal tests by Box O' Truth show frangible 223 and buckshot ammunition to be reasonably close in penetration depth compared to one another...on the order of 4-5 walls at a perpendicular angle if you miss the target and hit nothing but wall. Also given most homes are constructed with 2x4 studs 16" between center, theres a 9.4% chance of hitting a stud shooting at any wall span and penetration is reduced (though I wouldn't depend on that useless fact for much other than curiosity).

Most of us are governed by a 16" rifle barrel and would probably select something along the lines of a frangible or hollowpoint ammunition. 30 respective rounds of rifle ammunition would give you 30 tries, and 30-hit or-misses.

Pistols offer unmatchable maneuverability and reasonable stopping power. It won't hang you up by being too long to swing around narrow hallways or obstacles. It falls between a shotgun and rifle on ammunition capacity. However pistols are generally take more time to train with depending on who you are (gun newbie, pistol veteran,etc). Most unexperienced people with a shotgun or rifle can hit targets at 25yrds but not with a pistol, especially heavy triggers on double action revolvers. However not everyone has a 25yard hallway in their home.

6 rounds of 000 buckshot is equivalent to being hit by a 48 round burst of 9mm fire. I can't imagine someone surviving all 6 rounds taken to center mass. You get 6 tries but each hit is going to be taking 8 pellets at a time so each hit you get is going to be hard hitting.

Contrary to popular belief on how a shotgun doesn't have to be aimed and can take out multiple people in one blast, the spread is usually on the order of 1" per yard in an open cylinder bore shotgun. Shooting someone in a home-type environment (unless you live in a mansion) with 8 pellets and a high-velocity hard plastic shotcup from one round of 000 buckshot will leave a grouping so small, you minus well consider it one big messy hole.

For home defense right now, I use a semi-automatic Saiga 12ga "assault shotgun" with a 5 round box magazine loaded with 000 buckshots. I can empty the magazine before the first empty shell hits the ground. It maneuvers like a rifle and hits like a shotgun. I also aquired an AR15 and I'll keep a magazine with hollowpoints and frangibles for home defense but I would make the choice of grabbing the shotgun first.

My summary? Pistols vs shotguns vs rifles as a home defense weapon will never be settled on and universally agreed upon. Everyone here, and even the "experts" in magazines, books, or institutions don't agree with one another for various reasons. Pick what is most suitable to your specific environment and abilities.

[Cosmoline]

I'm not a big fan of buckshot, but any long gun is better than a handgun. I just wish someone would develop a home defense slug designed to expand through a person.

[106rr]

Many of us live in an area where the ARs and AKs are frowned upon. A simple Rem 870 (or similar type), a Marlin 357 (or similar type) or an M1 carbine might be cheaper in the long run when you have to face the grand jury. I think that the grand jury members are picked by judges in my area. Do you have liberal judges in your area?
I am sure that the most effective weapon will be the one with which you are most proficient. Caliber and type mean little. A 10-22 in the hands of a trained and determined shooter is a ferocious weapon.
Go to the local indoor range and observe the marksmanship in evidence on the firing line. Then decide if a pistol is the wisest choice.

[Cesiumsponge]

Any firearm is going to be made as evil as possible by a prosecutor.
He (or she) would likely say:

-a revolver is for someone with delusions of being a cowboy in the Wild West who wants to shoot now and ask questions

-a semi-automatic plastic pistol like a Glock or anything in 9mm as the choice among gangs and criminals

-a semi-automatic 1911 or similar pistol as a military designed weapon

-lever action rifles would follow a cowboy description similar to the revolver

-non-assault rifles like semi-automatic or bolt-action hunting rifles are extra-powerful sniper rifles that can kill bears miles away and overkill for humans

-semi-automatic assault weapons as military-inspired killing machines

-50BMG rifles can shoot through four schools and an airplane

-semi-automatic shotguns as street-sweeping crowd-mowing death machines

-pump-action shotguns are law enforcement firearms and shouldn't be used by civilians.

-birdshot as ammunition designed to riddle as many holes as possible in a human and kill them

-buckshot as overpowered and enough to kill deer and is equivalent to taking an SMG burst

-slugs as ammunition powerful enough to penetrate entire cars and overkill for humans.

-hollowpoints are designed as man slaughtering bullets that rip holes in people

-full metal jackets are armor piercing cop killer bullets

-magnum rounds are overkill and can shoot through multiple people

-specifically advertised home defense ammunition like Glassers or frangible ammunition is designed specifically for shooting human targets

Anything can be twisted with false statements, half-truths and will be presented to whoever is going to be deciding your fate in court. There is no such thing as a safe, wholesome, acceptable home-defense gun or ammunition in the eyes of any prosecutor.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Don't Tread on Me

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on the "Shotguns are terrible for home defense" point of view.

No offense taken. Perhaps I've exaggerated by calling it terrible. Instead, I feel it is not the most ideal.

If you are looking for single round effectivness at inside-the-home distance, I don't think there is anything that could be more devistating than a 12 guage slug. At least nothing thats not in the .50BMG range or the Class III family.

This is why it isn't ideal. I don't believe in the single round effectiveness for any weapon. Sure, if you do land a 1st shot on the badguy with a shotgun, it is over and lights out for them. Not only will the shot likely be fatal, but it will be an insta-threat stopper. While the 12 gauge is certainly a single round stopper, it is just as easy to miss with a single shot from a shotgun as it is with a carbine at that range. Couple that with the higher recoil which slows down your target re-aquisition and slower reload time of having to work a pump (unless you have a semi-auto) are a few reasons why I feel carbines are more effective.

A 556 to any part of the torso is going to have serious effects also. Serious enough to do what you need to do. At the same time, your muzzle hasn't moved much, you're ready for shots 2,3, and 4+ and you still have 25+ left before reload time. Not to mention, penetration through walls is superior, which I feel is an advantage and a positive feature rather than a liability. Just my opinion.


Also, I agree that I'd want as much ammo as I could get, but if you can't nuetralize a threat with six rounds of slugs or 000 at 15 feet, chances are you're already deceased.

Makes you wonder why the police bother with 30 round rifle magazines or 15-17 round magazines in their pistols?

Not trying to be a smart-a** in the slightest bit, but the choice weapon of most entry teams isn't a shotgun. It really isn't a good idea to speculate on what should and shouldn't be acceptable for stopping a gun battle. It is always best to have as much as is practically possible. Oh, if someone is in your home at night - assume it will be a gun battle. Prepare for the absolute worst.


I understand how you can advocate a rifle over a shotgun. I just can't fathom how you can justify calling it a "terrible" option...and I'm not even much of a shotgun advocate. I use a mini-30 backed up by a 686 (just for reference).


It's not terrible. I was wrong. A Ruger 10/22 would be terible, but still better than baseball bats, knives, BB guns, sprays or fists.

To me, fast + volume = good. If I can deliver a lot of rounds, fairly accurately, with great speed, chances are they will be maimed by a hail of lead before I will be.


Just take my logic to an extreme. Say we add full-autos as a consideration just for the sake of discussion. If you had to choose between a Full Auto M4, a Mossberg pump 12ga, or a S&W 44mag revolver to eliminate a threat at close range...which would you choose? I'd take the full-auto M4. There is only 1 "feature" of that weapon that makes it more appealing, volume of fire.

Since I can't have full-auto (at least easily), I have to settle for quick semi-autos with magazine capacities as large as possible.


PS, good choice with the mini-30.

[Mannlicher]

Sometimes it gets to the point, where lots of folks, (virtually none of which have any experience in the real world), are throwing up their fiercely held views, (most garnered from some web site), and the cacophony of mis information becomes almost mind numbing. This is one of those times.

[mics357]

my two cents worth since most home defense situations are at a distance of 10-25 ft it really boils down to using the weapon your most comfortable and profecient with. and as with all skills planning and practice will greatly improve your odds. having had only one hd event in my life which was resolved without gunfire. 3.00 am 7-26-98 i was awakend by my dog who bless his heart generally only barked when someone came into yard. i peered out window to see one person moving towards my side entrance. i grabbed my 686 s&w and stood by bedroom door the intruder entered home and moved towards my bedroom as he stepped through doorway i calmly placed said revolver near his left ear and shouted for him to not move . he was quite shocked and fully complied. he had no desire to see if he was faster than my finger. I handcuffed him and we walked to the front porch to await the police who arrived approx. 4 mins. later. the main thing here was the fact my wife and I had practiced for this event so we were not guessing what each should do. had he turned the other way when he came in he could have taken my tv or whatever i can replace things. at these ranges any weapon will work it's a matter of the owner /operater knowing what he/she will do.

[hightech]

Most overlooked here is a pistol ammo carbine. For me the home defense / suburban warfare is a Kel-Tec sub 2000 carbine, in 9mm, backed up by a SA XD9 tactical, in 9mm. Three mags, one mfr 10 rds and two Berretta 17 rds, for the Kel-Tec and four 18 rds for the XD. Using mil surplus at 1150 fps the carbine, with a 16 inch barrel, puts the 9mm out at 1400 fps +/- 25 :uhoh: . That makes it a 357 mag :evil: with a range of 100 meters. In my neighborhood you can not shoot over 100 meters with out hitting a house, car, tree, and a good or bad guy :p .

[Zedicus]

Here's the HD gear I plan to have

Long Gun: M1A EBR with Saiga 12 Mounted like a 203 & a Surefire light
Bedpost Gun: Para Ord 14-45 1911 with Surefire light

M1A EBR (For the Curious)
http://img145.echo.cx/img145/7598/m1aebr8zq.jpg
Colapseable stock, Pistol Grip, Full SOPMOD abillity, & is all in a drop in kit.

[EasternShore]

I have given this issue much thought, talked about it with many fellow shooters at ranges, etc. I have two kids, ages 6 and 3 that are routinely exposed to fire arms of all sorts. My concerns are not abou them getting in to the guns. I practice regularly, so I am fairly confident I'll hit what I am aiming at.

That said: BANG in the night and some one is in the house, I need a fire arm for home defense. My house is to small to be (2000 sq ft, narrow upstairs hall with 2 90 degree turns) weilding even a carbine. It is easier to bring to bear a hand gun in those situations. So then I have a choice of the 3 I own. And I own 3 partly because they all have the potential to pull HD duty.

1st Choice: .45 loaded with 2 rounds of varmint loads followed by 8 Federal Personal Protection rounds.

2nd Choice: .38 Airweight all Federal Personal Protection.

3rd and Final Choice (if in the unlikly event that the other 2 fail to fire) Walther P22 w/ JHPs

If I had a larger house or a different layout (kids rooms are between me and the top of the stairs) I would consider a rifle.

For some reason (spread) I would never consider a shotgun for HD.

This is of ourse only my opinion. One Fact: What ever you choose to use in your home, you must practice with on a regular basis (But 99% of the readers here already know that)

[Too Many Choices!?]

Easy to swing with a 10 inch barrel, has better range/power/accuracy than a handgun, and has 30 round mag capability(plus it has my scorpion flashlight mounted to it for target identification)... It will do a number on anything within a 100yds ,and do it quickly(even at night) with my red dot scope on it :)...

[Marshall]

For me, a shotgun is my first choice regardless what a writer writes.

As for a rifle, after spending much of the day yesterday with my M1 .30 carbine with a 30rd mag, I believe it to be a very capable, effective and manageable gun for this purpose. At 1990fps, the .30 caliber 110gr HSP bullet is more than sufficient for close range. After all. if it was good enough for thousands and thousands of troops in WWII, it's good enough for me. ;)


http://www.snsfirearms.com/resources/unvM1carb.jpg


http://www.olive-drab.com/images/carbine_training_ww2.jpg
Learning marksmanship with the M1 Carbine at Warner Robins Air Service Command, Robins Field, Georgia, July 1943.


http://chestnutridge.com/images/inv/AM30C06.jpg

[226]

Great thread. For advance preparation, envision rule 4 of 4 (especially the "what is behind it" part). While maneuverability is a consideration in weapon choice (bbl length was mentioned), what situation would have you chasing someone through your home or clearing a room? Leave that to the 911 response team. I'm sure someone can come up with one, but keeping your ground vice hunting the bg(s) out may be in order. Every situation is different, so investigating a bump in the night would determine a different weapon choice. These situations should be thought out in advance as much as possible. Penetration of walls is a factor, and this article has some interesting conclusions. All of the preceding has been IMho and ymmv.

Detailed Information Regrading Penetraition Of .223 Ammunition (http://www.olyarms.com/?page=223articles)

[JShirley]

Next would be an AK. Only thing you give up with the AK is some recoil issues vs. AR.

That's not true. I'm a fan of the AK platform and cartridges, but the AR is considerably more ergonomic and has better sights than virtually any AK.

As far as "well some soldier does..." to prove something, that means nothing. Squat. Zilch. Some of the least informed folks I've known- who actually did fire weapons- were in the Army.

Full auto fire is not necessarily helpful for S/HD. FA is really most important on squad support weapons. The best training nowdays stresses two quick semi-auto shots to near targets with M4 or similar weapon.

John

[JShirley]

3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that.

Heh. Rifles are excellent short range weapons. They don't put "put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun", they do it much better. In addition to power and speed issues- winner almost invariably carbine over handgun- carbines have advantages as impact tools that handguns do not.

A handgun, extended to firing position, extends about as far out as a carbine. Try it for yourself. When you factor in the additional control and speed a stock gives, the additional weight and mass that absorb recoil and enable fast time on target, and the additional power a carbine typically has, the only good reason to use a handgun is ease of concealment. That's it.

John

[MountainPeak]

I disagree with JShirley on this one. Take a rifle and a pistol, "at rest", I certainly can bring the pistol into effective play faster. Maybe that's just me. Like I said before, I'm content with my 12 gauge, and my .45acp as my home defense weapons. By all means use what you believe in.

[athlon64]

Understand even in a good shoot, they're gonna take the weapon used while the shoot is under investigation, and it might get mishandled during that period (i.e. dings, rust, etc.). Not saying to go cheap on what you use, but I wouldn't use a piece that would be hard to replace or something you wouldn't want dinged up when they throw it in the patrol car. A friend of mine was involved in a fatal shooting of a car thief, and the local PD held his Colt Python for a few months.

[Tokugawa]

Most of you are thinking in the box- So you want lethality, no penetration, wide dispersion of projectiles- Learn from the Marines! Specificly, the Marines who took back the Pacific Islands. FLAMETHROWER!! (of course, there may be some ramifications with your homeowners policy....)

[Strings]

I'm trying hard to picture THAT one before a Grand Jury... somehow, I don't think that would qualify for a "no bill" (unless, of course, the shooter was in Texas. And could be described in three words as "lil' pregnant gal")...

[Monty]

As for a rifle, after spending much of the day yesterday with my M1 .30 carbine with a 30rd mag, I believe it to be a very capable, effective and manageable gun for this purpose. At 1990fps, the .30 caliber 110gr HSP bullet is more than sufficient for close range. After all. if it was good enough for thousands and thousands of troops in WWII, it's good enough for me.

So is that Carbine a USGI one or a more recent manufacture model. That little rifle has always appealed to me.

Another that I have thought would make a good choice for a handy little self defense carbine is one of the Ruger PC40. Have to think a 155gr .40 would make a very good, reasonable range stopper out of a carbine length barrel.

[106rr]

C Sponge;
I disagree with your negative response concerning what all prosecutors will say about my weapon. If you had any actual knowledge of what my local procecutor might say it would be different. I live in a sensitive environment. I do not wish to add to my legal bills by having to bring expert witnesses to justify my AR or my AK. Almost all hi cap mags are illegal here. Guns are frowned upon. A trial is an economic war with the legal system and the press. My choice of firearms is intended to win the fight and the aftermath.
I fear the prosecutor less than my local newspaper. It prohibits advertisements for any firearm with a bbl length less than 3". It is rabidly anti gun in it's editorial policy.
Marshal; nice post about the M1 Carbine. I understand there is a site called <www.theboxotruth.com> whhere the M1 was tested under home defense conditions with Winchester HSP loads.

[Marshall]

So is that Carbine a USGI one or a more recent manufacture model. That little rifle has always appealed to me.

It's a Universal. It has a light birch stock with nice dark figures, never given me any problems either. I really enjoy the gun, one of my favorite little rifles. I enjoy shooting it more than rifles I have that cost 5 times as much.


106rr, thank you. I'll check out the link.

[Tony Mig]

Clint Smith is well trained, and a very smart individual when it comes to fighting with guns, however I believe one's choice in home defense weapons may also hinge on what their particular state laws entail, the area in which they live, and wether or not they have other family members living within the home. Personal choice also plays a big factor here, some preffer one type of firearm over another based on the fact that they are much more proficent with one type over the others, and therefore more comfortable using that particular type of firearm.

With that said....I live in The People's Republic of gun hating, Liberal New Jersey. There is no shooting at anything outside the home unless you are 1,000 feet from any road, it's daylight, you're hold a shotgun, and you have a hunting license on your back. If someone is climbing through your window with a gun in their hand, you better wait until they are far enough inside so when you do shoot them, they don't fall back out of the house, or you just might find yourself rotting in a state pen....
You can't shoot them with a hollow point, or you'll be charged with using excessive force, and if it can be proven that you knew the invader, they will attempt to turn it into a domestic violence case, and charge you with man slaughter.
New Jersey is such a wonderful place thanks to our politicians, the likes of Jon Corzine, and Frank Lautengurg...... :banghead:

So for me, it's a 9mm XD loaded with Federal 147gr. expanding full metal jacket, an alarm system, and a german sheppard......... :rolleyes:

[Marshall]

Tony, thank you for making me feel lucky about living in my state. :D

[epijunkie67]

So for me, it's a 9mm XD loaded with Federal 147gr. expanding full metal jacket, an alarm system, and a german sheppard

I had understood the NJ law to be against all forms of expanding ammo, not just hollow points. Specifically I read somewhere that the EFMJ rounds were covered by this statute and thus illegal. Might want to check on that.

And after reading the entire thread I'm going to throw out on option here just to really stir things up a little.

I own an FN57 pistol and love it. Very low recoil, 20 round magazine, and fires a round designed to replace the 9mm in effectiveness (Though there is a lot of argument about that.)

Heres where I get a few arguments. The P90 rifle firing this same round is due out in civilian version in a few months. Light, bullpup design, 50 round magazine (Yeah it sells with a 30 but the 50s fit and are legal), and will launch a 40 grain round at over 2200 FPS. The recoil will be basically nonexistant.

50 rounds with no recoil from a shoulder fired weapon no longer than an AK pistol.

Comments?

[mussi]

As long as we can't get a rifle that will fire the following rounds:

a) rubber and gel rounds
b) salt (for the fools that try to 'embellish' your walls with spray paint)
c) #09 buckshot (for criminals that get into your home)
d) #01 buckshot (for criminals that survived #09)

Something trying to replace the 12-gauge will have a very hard time, especially in jurisdictions that don't like the P90 and it's derivatives. The choice is clear here.

[Gewehr98]

Many rounds of 00 full-brass buckshot in the extended mag tube. Nobody's gonna convince me otherwise. I stopped not one, but two attempted home invasions with it in my last state of residence. As for old wive's tales, one ne'er-do-well did indeed turn tail and run down the street as I racked aforementioned 870 MkI loudly, for to insert one of possibly many 00 Buck rounds into the chamber. He had the gall to leave a puddle on my front porch, too.

But there's a sidefolder SAR-1 with alternating Glasers and soft points tucked between the nightstand and headboard. Just in case, don't ya know... :cool:

[entropy]

That sound definitely get's one's attention, Gew98! ;) I temporarily cleared out a party (unintentionally) just by racking my 870 open to show someone. (I was sober, but young and stupid. It was stolen later in the wee hours of the morning. Only gun ever stolen from me, and I definitely learned my lesson(s) that night: Guns 'n booze do not mix. ( I gave up the booze five years ago. I suddenly had more money for guns! :D ) Don't parade around your pride and joy 870 at a party, it may grow legs! :mad: