[Joey101]

I am so close to finally getting my .45 cal. S.A. 1911A-1 off layaway. :D But I thought of a question I thought I would run by you all first.

I know that many Police Departments are going with .40 cal. now. Why did some of them go from the .45 to the .40? :confused: Is there something wrong with a .45? :confused:

In comparison to the Major cal. you know, .38, .40, .45. Out of those which is going to give me the most stopping power? I'm thinking the .45 but then that brings me back to why PD's are going with .40's now. :confused: I just don't understand! :banghead:

[only1asterisk]

I realize this wasn’t what you were looking for, but there just isn’t enough difference between the various cartridges to matter much. Bullet construction matters more to me than the cartridge it comes from.

There is a great deal of reading (both here and elsewhere) on this topic. It boils down to this:

Many things are far more vital to successful self defense than the caliber of one’s gun. Some of them are even more important than having a gun.

I consider these to be the foremost:

Proper Mindset
Situational Awareness
Sound Training
Frequent, Quality Practice

If a person has those 4 things, they can choose from a host of quality firearms in any reasonable caliber and I will consider them well armed.



The reasons that 45 ACP handguns are not more common in law enforcement are simple.

1. The ammunition cost more. You would be shocked at how much of a concern this is.

2. High capacity magazines are considered a must have. Double stack 45’s are best suited to folks with larger hands.

3. Cop fashion. Everyone wants the latest thing. The 45 ACP is 100 years old and the department down the road just got Glocks.

4. Ignorance. Recoil is often cited as a reason not to adopt a 45. This is pure bovine byproduct. The Glock 23 has more and sharper recoil than the majority of 45 ACP handguns.


David

[Delmar]

Don't sweat it at all, Joey. As has been pointed out, the accountants are usually the ones who make the decisions as to what the officers on patrol are going to carry and in which caliber.

Depending on who is making the decision is going to depend on which weapons system is chosen, what brand of ammo and how much is available for practice

[Murphster]

I believe that magazine capacity is the deciding factor. However, there's no arguing with the .40's manstopping ability however. The local PD uses them and (not to be indelicate), but the bad guys die when they get shot with the .40. I prefer the .45 as a personal defense round. But if I was in the boonies, miles from any back-up, I'd feel much cozier with 15+1 of .40 in my pistol and another 30 rounds on my belt. More sometimes is better. I agree with 1asterisk's points one and two. Ammo costs are less and many officer's hands don't work with larger grips. The uniformity of arms on many departments means the pistol they choose has to work with the smallest officers.

[timothy75]

With modern cartrige technology the 40 is proving to be as capable as the 45 these days and with double stack pistols being the standard the slimer grips offer a more universal apeal for most departments. However dont think the 45 isnt issued anymore its still a popular caliber in law enforcement especially in colder regions.

[scubie02]

I know that many Police Departments are going with .40 cal. now. Why did some of them go from the .45 to the .40? Is there something wrong with a .45?

because most cops are crappy shots, and they need as many pieces of lead to fling around in hopes of hitting something that they can get...;P

there's nothing wrong with either one, and there performance is probably pretty similar. Personally, I prefer the 45 and 1911's. It may have just been coincidence, but any 40 I have ever owned or shot hasn't been super accurate. Not awful, mind you, but not impressive either. My least accurate 45 is as accurate as the best 40 I've had. And to me the 40 actually seems like it recoils more. My 45's are pussycats to shoot.

btw--good choice on the springfield--I have three of them, and an xd, and every one of them has been a pleasure to shoot--no failures of any kind very accurate.

[caz223]

.45 is a great caliber, I can't stand .40.
10mm is the way to go, if you can carry/handle it.

[Velocity229]

The 40 is the perfect balance between the 9 and 45. It offers good weight and significant velocity. Cops may be in situations where they have to shoot through car doors, windshields, plywood and other materials. They need a bullet that can properly do the job in various types of environments.

45ACP is an expensive cartridge. Also, most guns in 45 hold less rounds than others such as 9mm or 40.

When it comes to stopping power, it doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or a 45ACP. Shot placement still is most important.

[only1asterisk]

Begun the caliber war has!

David

[Tom Servo]

Begun the caliber war has!
Hey, we all know that those silly 9mm/.40cal rounds'll just bounce off the BG's skull, while a .45 will throw his body across the room like a rag doll! :evil:

[TonyB]

If the .45 is so bad,how come if you shoot a guy in the pinky he'll spin around and his head will explode??Let's your whimpy .40 do that... :neener:
you young punks and your .40's....bah! :scrutiny:

[only1asterisk]

Forget those pretenders; the 10mm Norma Semi-magnum Auto is the only cartridge scientifically engineered from the start to deliver enough ultimate stopping power shock to shift a target individual’s paradigm without even hitting him!!!! A secret military/NSA project, it nearly had to be scrapped when its cover was blown! Only a vast conspiracy within the defense industry saved the round when the story was leaked. Per a secret pact all 10mm ammunition is seriously watered down from its full heart-exploding soul-rending potential! Only by the mystic powers of the found Big BAD Ammo Inc. have we been able to create THE ULTIMATE 10mm! Using special powders known only to Europeans and custom blended composite death bullets blessed by a Voodoo Witchdoctor our ammunition is second to none (except our SUPER ULTIMATE 10mm used by certain top secret SPECIAL FORCES!)!! Get yours today for the price of $85 a box!

10mm guys are the BEST! ;)


David

[1911 guy]

is usually the determining factor with PD handguns. Stick eith what you're comrortable with. If you get to a range more than twice a year to qualify, you're already ahead of 80% of our police. Anyway, no the .40 is not decidedly better or worse than the .45.

[33-805]

Given the choice between 40 and 45, I would have to take... 12 Ga!! :D But seriously, the two calibers are both pretty good. Carry whichever you like and can shoot well.

[priv8ter]

Is there something wrong with a .45?

Yup...it's boring. For close on 100 years it's been putting bad guys into the ground with an almost hum-drum regularity.

Now, why would you want to mess with an old round like that.

I used to have an H&K .40, but I got rid of it because it didn't fit the wifes hand the way a 1911 or a CZ-75 does...

.40 is a good call, but so is .45. In similar sized guns, .40 will get you a few more rounds, but it will also get you what I found to be snappier recoil.

greg

[kbheiner7]

The .40 came into existence as a compromise between the 2 popular defense calibers at the time, the 9mm and .45. Mind you, it's a good compromise, but a compromise just the same.

The 9mm, .40 and .45 offer similar penetration when all is said and done. The .45 makes the biggest holes, but typically offers the fewest rounds in a magazine.

I believe that ammo cost and the perception thay cops are better armed with higher capacity guns is the reason some LEAs have moved to the .40. I don't agree with their arguements.

The average number of shots per engagement has gone up significantly since the days when cops carried revolvers. I think that high-cap autos offer a false sense of security to many LEOs.

Anyone see the footage of the 107 rounds recently expended in LA? These shots were mostly < 20 yards and the perp wallked away. :what: Having 14-17 rounds available doesn't mean squat if you can't hit what you're aiming at.

[Clean97GTI]

You are correct, .45 is not a good round.
Capacity tends to be too low and velocity not high enough.

Get a weapon in .40, you'll be better off.
The most important thing is to put the shots where they will count. Since .40 gives you more shots with comparable levels of energy and greater velocity, I don't see how the PD's could NOT go with it over .45.

Let the old girl die.

[Dreamer]

There is no substitute for accuracy. Accuracy comes with practice. If you can't hit what your aiming at, you get to miss seven more times.

A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with 50 BMG.

Get the 45 ACP shoot it until you wear it out. :)

[1911 guy]

You are correct, .45 is not a good round.
Capacity tends to be too low and velocity not high enough.

Am I the only one who sees a fault in the logic here? The velocity has been just fine for 94 years and when the writer goes on to mention (correctly) hitting what you aim at, capacity gets less important. Or maybe I'm the crazy one?

[Edmond]

My solution to low capacity would to be carrying more magazines but that's just me. :D

Only downside to .45, IMO, is that it's expensive to shoot.

[spacemanspiff]

.45acp sucks! you can send me all your 1911's and i'll give them a proper send-off.


all your 1911 are belong to me! :evil:

[kbheiner7]

The .45 makes big holes & that's a good thing. :evil:

[Tom Servo]

Only by the mystic powers of the found Big BAD Ammo Inc. have we been able to create THE ULTIMATE 10mm! Using special powders known only to Europeans and custom blended composite death bullets blessed by a Voodoo Witchdoctor our ammunition is second to none (except our SUPER ULTIMATE 10mm used by certain top secret SPECIAL FORCES!)!!
Asterisk, this seems like great ammo for my deployment as Head of Security for a large retail shopping establishment! We need serious firepower to deal with the gang types who tend to think they "own" the Dairy Queen. Also, do you know where I can get some good duct-tape for attaching armor plates to my back? :evil:

Joey, don't worry. The .45 is a powerful round that's proven itself through two World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, several smaller conflicts (remember GRENADA!!!), as well as having saved the lives of countless LEOs and civilians. It'll serve you well, and the 1911 is a great platform.

What's more, I find it to be much more accurate than the .40, which has too much muzzle-flip and flash. The .40 is basically just a 10mm short, engineered as a compromise because FBI testers couldn't handle the SWEET, HORRIBLE VOODOO of the 10mm's recoil and the .357SIG was just, well...too EUROPEAN.

Glock people tend to like the round, though.

[Gabe]

.45 is a fine cartridge but so are .40 and 9mm. Think about it this way. 45 fmj had an excellent reputation with a century of service. Modern 9mm+P has the same energy and expand to .60 caliber with good hollowpoints. 40S&W has more energy than 45acp and expand to near .70 caliber. Now it's true new .45 rounds expand to make even bigger holes. But it seems to me they're all good enough if you shoot well.

[Ala Dan]

I will use the Baldwin County, (AL) sheriff's department as an example.
The good sheriff being a Nam vet really wanted his department to adopt
the .45 caliber SIG-SAUER P220A; but realizing that the chosen weapon
MUST fit perons with different size hands (females in particular), the
agency decided to adopt the SIGARMS P229 in .40 S&W caliber. Not
flaming females, but it seems as though he didn't think they could
handle the .45 ACP as easily.

*FootNote- from an article in a very old SIGARMS QUARTERLY magazine.

[pete f]

Let us dispell a big myth. a 45 ACP does NOT recoil that much. softer than full house 357 mag. less sharp than a glock nine, or a lightweight 40. It just does not kick that bad. My daughter at the age of 14 had no problem shooting several hundred rounds per session out of a P13 Para. My wife who is 5'6'' and 126# carries a LT wt commander and can manage to shoot it very well, thank you. She usually shoots a box of fifty at each range sesson and then switches to a Gold Cup for the rest of the time.

The 45 ACP parameters of a 230 grain chunk flying at 835 FPS and delivering almost a 1/2 inch hole in the target has not been surpassed in real world fighting. On paper, lots of things look good, but in real world use, there are very few things that we can still say after one hundred years, there are none better.

[Frandy]

:confused: Is there something wrong with a .45? :confused:

If it was good enough for Alvin York, it's good enough for me! :D

From Alvin York's diary, dated October 8, 1918...
link to diary (http://www.alvincyork.org/Diary.htm)

Suddenly a German officer and five men jumped out of the trench and charged me with fixed bayonets. I changed to the old automatic and just touched them off too. I touched off the sixth man first, then the fifth, then the fourth, then the third and so on. I wanted them to keep coming.

I didn't want the rear ones to see me touching off the front ones. I was afraid they would drop down and pump a volley into me.

Yessir, the "old automatic." Go flame THAT! ;)

[Joe Meyer]

The bigger the better! :D