[Logistar]

I have a friend who has been given an ultimatum at work regarding their company policy. A new company policy (Private employer) states that the employer may seach you or your vehicle at any time without cause and without reason.

Weapons are prohibited and if found would result in termination. My friend got a CCW and doesn't plan to carry the gun inside. But inspection of vehicles would keep them from having protection to/from work. (Which is why they got their CCW in the first place.)

This is at a college but KY law does NOT forbid it. In fact, it seems to say that an employer cannot keep an employee from carrying in their PERSONAL vehicle. (See at bottom of page if interested.)

I would like to know how many of you CAN carry IN YOUR CAR as far as your company policy is concerned. (I am not concerned with carry inside your building or removing your weapon from the vehicle).

It is good to see someone standing up for our rights though it appears it will cost them their job.

It is sad that our freedom is disappearing.

-------------------------------------------------------
A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or
both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction.

[Zak Smith]

It is sad that our freedom is disappearing.
A business owner ought to have the liberty to dispose of his property as he sees fit, including controlling access to it. The employee likewise has the liberty to work somewhere else.

[R.H. Lee]

Waiting for the libertarians to congregate and uphold whatever abuses employers want to inflict..................

Edit: whoops. Zak sneaked in under the radar. Was I right or what.

[Zak Smith]

Already beatcha to it.

You can't have it both ways.

[goalie]

The hospital I work at is posted with "no guns" signs. Due to an incident I had on the way to work, and the subsequent police response to the ICU where I was working that night (I found it prudent to leave the scene and meet the police at the hospital, as nobody was shot and I was scared) pretty much everyone at the 600+ bed hospital now knows I come to work with a handgun on my passenger seat as I go through the ghetto.

After the incident I was approached by senior hospital administration and it was said that it was good that I was OK. Nothing was ever said then, or since, about me having a firearm in my vehicle, and it has been a little over a year since it happened.

All in all, I have to say that Allina treated me better than the Minneapolis PD, despite their signs.

I love my job, but I would quit if I was not allowed protection on my way to and from work.

[SADshooter]

I work for a municipal govt., and while new state law allows CHL holders to carry on premises, I am barred as a condition of employment from carrying onto the property or keeping a firearm secured in my vehicle on city property. I hate it, but I haven't found alternate employment (for a host of reasons) and I haven't vioulated the policy I (grudgingly) agreed to abide by. It sucks, but I need the money.

SADShooter

[Shovelhead]

I work on a Military installation.
Random vehicle checks for those entering and leaving the installation.
As well as parking lot sweeps by Security Forces Officers using dogs.
The one choice that's not in the poll that would be most appropriate to my situation would be "I would be arrested for that."

[mons meg]

Ditto what Shovelhead said. I can carry in my car all day in OK with my CCW, but I don't want any of what they'll hand me if they find a pistol in my car coming onto an AFB.

[Sindawe]

When my former employer was assimilated by a large mutlinational scientific/health care corporation, the new owners put into place a policy that banned weapons in the work place (guns, knives and the like) as well as a policy that employee's vehicles parked on company property could be searched with out the notice or consent of the employee/owner.

As a result, I began parking on the street in front of the facility, which is city property, not company property. Folks asked why I did that, so I just pointed to the new policies.

[cracked butt]

My company has such a policy. The day that the new policy was added to our company handbook last year, I went right to the president and asked if it were all right if I kept guns in my truck if I kept them locked up, out of sight and didn't advertise their presence since I often go target shooting, turkey hunting, waterfowling, right after work as I work 3rd shift. He was actually OK with it. It helps that I work for a small company and know the president on a first name basis. :cool:

[Hawk]

My employer prefers my firearms to be brought into the building so as to reduce the risk of theft from my car.

Firearms in the car are, however, quite acceptable.

I work in Texas.

[monsternav]

Work on a Navy Base. No Firearms allowed. :(

[TarpleyG]

Our Employee Handbook states that weapons are not allowed on company property which I assume includes the parking lot. Nowhere does it state that a random search is a condition of employment. I could always park across the street I guess.

Greg

[Rockrivr1]

The company I currently work for does not allow you to carry in the building, but has no provision on what's in your car. Unfortunately though my company is being bought by a rather big company and the new handbook that came out last week indicates no guns on premise to include the parking lot. They also indicate they can search you or your vehicle with no prior warning.

As a side note, I'd seriously doubt they would actually implement a search. Has this happened to anyone?

[Werewolf]

They do now but as of Nov 1, 2005 I can tell 'em to pack sand.

OK passed a new law holding harmless employers whose employees have a weapon stolen from their car while in a company parking lot that is afterwards used in a crime. In addition the law provides that any employer that tries to violate the provision or fires an employee for having a weapon properly locked up in his car can be sued and forced to comply with the law.

This law was passed to cover the nit-picking BS that some employers complained about in a similar law passed last year but which was put on hold by the courts when 5 major OK employers brought suit against the state.

I imagine the same 5 will do the same thing this year. We'll see. I'm crossing my fingers.

[FPrice]

I not only carry in my car, but I am expected to carry my CCW while on the job.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I am working out of a gun store.

:neener:

[BryanP]

I work for State Govt. As far as I know there's no rule against having one in my car. Unfortunately there are big signs on every State bldg that say I can't carry inside unless I am a LEO. :(

[71Commander]

Wether I had a gun or not, I wouldn't let anyone not in LE search my vehicle. :cuss:

[BostonGeorge]

Wether I had a gun or not, I wouldn't let anyone not in LE search my vehicle.

BINGO! We have a winner! It really doens't matter what the policy says, if they break into your car and then try to fire you, there could be serious reprecutions.

[kbheiner7]

Does your company policy prohibit you from carrying in your private vehicle?

Company policy says it's a no-no. It does not prohibit me from carrying in my private vehicle.

Searches are interesting. Would employers break into a locked car?

For that matter, what it you carried at work? Could they legally search your person?

I know LE can conduct reasonable searches, but I have a hard time picturing this in todays workplace.

[JohnKSa]

The employee likewise has the liberty to work somewhere else.Easy to say--but when you have a lot of years at a company, a wife with a chronic illness, specialized skills and your employer suddenly changes its policy on firearms, it's not quite that straightforward.

How about this--visitors to the facility can have guns in their vehicles. Anyone can drive off the street and park in the lot and it is ILLEGAL for the company to prohibit them from having a firearm in their vehicle. On the other hand, I've worked there for many years, they've checked my background over and over but I can't.

Sure, I could quit any time. Getting another job that uses my skill set, that pays as well, and offers a health plan with all my wife's doctors is pretty unlikely.

Parking off the company property is not an option due to the somewhat remote location and very large size of my workplace.

[Dead]

My company's policy is "You can CARRY ON THE JOB, if you are authorized by the state"... Now seeing that CCW is nearly impossible to obtain....

[Carlos]

I know LE can conduct reasonable searches, but I have a hard time picturing this in todays workplace.

It happens all the time.

Read about the AOL case where people were fired for guns in vehicles while parked OFF company premises.

This country is out of control.

[Zrex]

My company actively encourages its employees to carry legally.

[autospike]

Carlos,

Do you have a link to that story. That is extremely troubling.

[Sindawe]

autospike: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/antigun-aol2.html

Google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=AOL+Employees+fired+for+guns&btnG=Search

[MechAg94]

I work for a company that has those rules. Most chemical companies on the Gulf Coast have similar rules as far as I know. I work at our corporate office and they won't even let us keep guns in our cars though that is a shopping mall parking garage as well and not company property. The only time I have ever heard that our company has used that policy is for people who parked inside the fence line of one of our plants or were truck drivers. Refusing a search is grounds for firing also. If people do carry, they don't talk about it.

This is in Houston, TX also.

SADshooter, didn't Texas pass a law 2 years ago telling local governments they cannot restrict CHL holders? I am surprised a govt office has that rule.

I asked a manager once. He said he didn't want employees with guns nearby who could get pissed off. I still think that is stupid.

[Standing Wolf]

A business owner ought to have the liberty to dispose of his property as he sees fit, including controlling access to it. The employee likewise has the liberty to work somewhere else.

Baloney. My right to defend my life trumps an employer's right to control his property.

[Libertyteeth]

Waiting for the libertarians to congregate and uphold whatever abuses employers want to inflict..................

Edit: whoops. Zak sneaked in under the radar. Was I right or what.

I don't think it is inconsistent with libertarian principles to insist that people be able to carry firearms in their private vehicles in any parking lot, regardless of the wishes of the corporation. Limited liability corporations are increasingly destructive of liberty, in league with the government as they generally are.

[JohnKSa]

didn't Texas pass a law 2 years ago telling local governments they cannot restrict CHL holdersYES! But that doesn't apply to employers restricting their employees. A bill was introduced to fix this loophole (as was done in OK), but it didn't go anywhere.

[R.H. Lee]

I don't think it is inconsistent with libertarian principles to insist that people be able to carry firearms in their private vehicles in any parking lot, regardless of the wishes of the corporation. Limited liability corporations are increasingly destructive of liberty, in league with the government as they generally are.

THAT is the most encouraging statement I've heard yet regarding libertarianism. The acknowledgment that corporations and government are interwined hand in glove (to the detriment of individuals) is one that more libertarian types should recognize.

[garyk/nm]

Yes, my company has that policy. No, I don't abide by it. New Mexico has a law regarding gun carry which says that your private vehicle is an extension of your home. No warrant, no search; and if fired, I know a couple of good attorneys. I keep seeing this "property rights" thing pop up in these discussions and my opinion is that state law trumps employer's property rights. And I am willing to put it to the test.

[c_yeager]

My company doesnt allow firearms to be carried in the building, but it specifically allows them to be left in personally owned vehicles, and provides secure storage for those who dont want to risk leaving a firearm in their car.

I work in Seattle, and to my knowledge noone has ever taken advantage of the offer of secure storage.

[LiquidTension]

When I started working at my current job three years ago, I was the only one there with a CWP. Now, everyone in the company has one :D Of course, there's only 5 ppl in the company including me, but I'm doing my part.

If I couldn't carry on the job, I'd find a different job. I do a lot of the same stuff that LEOs do, and in some pretty rough areas. Most of the people I have contact with don't look forward to my visit. I've never had a problem, but there have been several times when I've been glad that I've had my weapon available.

To the original question, I have another. Does company policy trump state law? I don't know the rules in your state, but if your vehicle is locked and your employer breaks into it, can they be convicted of a crime? Seems to me that company policy allowing search and possible destruction of personal property wouldn't hold up in court, but I'm not a lawyer and things are rarely the way I think they should be :scrutiny:

[71Commander]

How could a private company get the Police to search your vehicle? Doesn't a crime have to be commited first, not a violation of a compny policy?

[MasterPiece Arms.com]

Quote:
I don't think it is inconsistent with libertarian principles to insist that people be able to carry firearms in their private vehicles in any parking lot, regardless of the wishes of the corporation. Limited liability corporations are increasingly destructive of liberty, in league with the government as they generally are.

RileyMc-THAT is the most encouraging statement I've heard yet regarding libertarianism. The acknowledgment that corporations and government are interwined hand in glove (to the detriment of individuals) is one that more libertarian types should recognize.


I'm super hard core Libertarian (except the Libertarian party is wrong on abortion and immigration) and I've worked to educate people on the evils of the corporate entity for years. 1st, it's a CREATION of government. I call the corporate entity a bastard stepchild of government. It exists because of a GOVERNMENT charter, thus it's not surprising when it's hard to tell where corporations end and government begins. In the same way, one shouldn't be surprised when they see mom and daughter at the mall dressed nearly identically and carrying similar purses and cell phones.

2nd: "If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power of money should be taken from banks and restored to Congress and the people to whom it belongs. I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money, are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Rush Limbaugh has implied for years that corporations are the same as, and CONSTITUTE the free market. Hogwash. The corporate entity DESTROYS the free market in so many ways, only an idiot, or someone bought off BY corporations, or both, would say otherwise! It's true that Democrats attack corporations, but they do it for the wrong reasons.

[SteveS]

My employer forbids carrying while at work, but says nothing about keeping guns in private vehicles. They don't own the parking lot, so it would probably be a moot point anyway.

Does company policy trump state law? I don't know the rules in your state, but if your vehicle is locked and your employer breaks into it, can they be convicted of a crime?

Interesting hypothetical. I would guess that if your employer broke into your car and searched they would be just as guilty as if some crook broke into it. I would also guess that they wouldn't bother breaking in and would ask you if they could search your car. If you said no, then you would/could be fired. I don't know anyone that has ever had their car searched by their employer, so this is all hypothetical.

[Gunnutz13]

DOD and work on a military compound, which is not an official fort or base, which sports a little blue sign that states no firearms or edged weapons are permitted. All vehicles are subject to search...and when your vehicle is searched, they look in the drivers compartment, glove box, under the seats, under the hood, in the trunk, and even under the car. But they don't ever check the body...which doesn't make sense to me. A person could be strapped with C4 or carry as many firearms as they could conceal and still do major damage. And, do they really think a commited terrorist will stop and submit to a search...? Hell no, they will just blow through the checkpoint or detonate right at the front gate. :banghead:

[CAS700850]

County policy manual prohibits weapons in thw orkplace, weapons in county vehicles, and goes on to state that private vehicles used for county business are considered "county vehicles" for this policy's purposes. Goes on to state that any employee, that employee's workspace, and the employee's vehicle may be searched by law enforcement at any time at the request of the employee's department head and/or elected official supervising the employee. So, in theory, because I use my car to drive to witness interviews (since the county provides two cars to our office of over a dozen attorneys and half dozen investigators), they could come search it in my driveway some day. There is a right to refuse, which subjects the employee to immediate termination.

The law excepts law enforcement officers, which by definition includes me. And, since I'm now issued a weapon, I don't have to worry. But the policy is BS for employees. Imagine if you want to go to the range after work, you lock everything up in the car, but drive the car on an errand for work. Could be fired for that, even though you're in full compliance with the law.

[SADshooter]

MechAg94:

As JohnKSA noted, YOU can carry into my workplace or have a weapon in your car. I can't, because it violates a City of Austin employment policy. Assuming I or my vehicle were searched or my weapon otherwise observed and reported, I'd be summarily terminated. I think virtually every metro in Texas has similar policies (I know San Antonio does). Like JohnKSA I work in a remote location which is entirely City property, so there's no "off-site" option.

Again, I'm not whining, because I signed the policy waiver. All of my training/work experience is in government, so pulling up stakes isn't feasible, yet.

[fletcher]

No, but state law does :(

[Vermont Guy]

There is something that never gets mentioned in these continually recurring threads.

Most of the employers we are talking about are actually corporations. Even small businesses derive benefits from being organized as corporations. It gives them the ability to shield the owner's personal assets from liabilities that the business might incur.

In other words these employers are NOT persons created by God with any property rights. These artificial persons are creations of the state and the state can dictate whatever terms it wants.

Claiming to support "property rights" is invalid in the case of a cooperate entity.

It is a variation on an old trick. Long ago Missouri wanted to deny handguns to the recently freed blacks. It couldn't be that obvious so it enabled the sheriff's to permit only "proper" people to acquire concealable weapons. Surprise! No blacks were found to be "proper" people.

Today the legislature can enact CCW and know that over a third of the life of most permittees will be spent in prohibited places. Which will make it difficult to carry in the remaining fraction. We might as well start calling it "pajama carry" because we can only carry when we are asleep.

Gotta respect "private" property you know.

[WT]

No firearms, illegal drugs or alcohol allowed on site.

At Christmas when a vendor wants to give me a bottle of cheap wine (no gifts over $25), I have to meet him off site to comply. I don't bother.

[Shovelhead]

And, do they really think a commited terrorist will stop and submit to a search...? Hell no, they will just blow through the checkpoint or detonate right at the front gate. :banghead:


A pretty appropriate 'smiley' for anyone that tries.

I wouldn't want to be the one to try to drive a truck though the ECP of a military base (like ours) equipped with these.

http://www.deltascientific.com/nonrc-images/ba108-252w.jpg

http://www.deltascientific.com/k12.htm

And yes, they DO work.

http://www.deltascientific.com/nonrc-images/impact1_350w.jpg

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

No firearms. No drugs. No alcohol.

Also, as a "l"ibertarian, the companies property ends where mine begins. In the case of my car and its contents, that line is their tar and my tires. As long as my firearm is not being carried outside of my property, then what they don't know won't hurt them.

As for warrentless searches, that'd be one of the faster ways for me to file a lawsuit. As would the consequences of one of my fellow employees going on a rampage while company policy forbids me the tools I could use to stop such a thing. If they strip me of my safety products, and do nothing to ensure that safety, then they are to be held liable for any damages I incur from some nutcase cutting loose.

And yes, I let the HR person know that I felt that way when they hired me. :)

[Gunnutz13]

Nice....NOW THAT'S DETERRENCE...I know that's not Fort Belvior, ( my HQ ) so where are you located in Nothern Virginia ? :scrutiny:

[Henry Bowman]

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
and I have not search the KY stautes. But based on what you quoted and stated was the law in KY, the relevant portion says:

A private ... employer may prohibit employees ... holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees ... holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons in vehicles owned by the employee ...

So it would appear the the state has decided that an employee's right trumps the employer's right in this limited circumstance.

[roo_ster]

The usual corporate GFW regs:
1. No firearms in the building
2. None in your vehicle in the parking lot
3. Subject to search, etc

We recently got a new fellow working at my site. Former SF from way back & a gun aficionado. Got to speaking with him & squared him away WRT Texas CHL law & corporate policy. Had to tell him to keep some of his just-after-work activities on the low-down, because of company policy.

[Shovelhead]

Hey Shovelhead...
Nice....NOW THAT'S DETERRENCE...I know that's not Fort Belvior, ( my HQ ) so where are you located in Nothern Virginia ?


I live in Arlington Virginia, but I work at Bolling AFB in Washington DC.

[SteveS]

As for warrentless searches, that'd be one of the faster ways for me to file a lawsuit.

What kind of suit would you file?

As would the consequences of one of my fellow employees going on a rampage while company policy forbids me the tools I could use to stop such a thing. If they strip me of my safety products, and do nothing to ensure that safety, then they are to be held liable for any damages I incur from some nutcase cutting loose.

I don't think that this has ever been successful. I wish you luck. I agree that the company bears some responsibility.

And yes, I let the HR person know that I felt that way when they hired me.

Good for you. I wish more people would speak out against these asinine rules.

[mzmtg]

I'm in the boat with the others who work on Air Force bases.

:(

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

What kind of suit would you file?

USC. Title 18. Part 1. Chapter 13. Sect 241. Not that I am under any illusions that our court system works as a "justice" system these days.

[Blackcloud6]

Federal Employee. Cannot bring a firearm on to the installation. period.

[benEzra]

A business owner ought to have the liberty to dispose of his property as he sees fit, including controlling access to it. The employee likewise has the liberty to work somewhere else.

...

You can't have it both ways.

And whose property is the interior of the car?

[Spreadfire Arms]

ive driven by IBM on Burnet Road in North Austin and on their entrance sign onto their property it has a "no firearms" or something similar written on it. that is at the beginning of their property line, so i assume they mean nowhere on their property. there is no 30.06 sign though.

that being said i think most employers i've worked for have it written in their company policy that you can't even keep it in your car if it is parked on their property, however, i've never seen one that subjects your vehicle to random search or that refusal will subject to you automatic termination of employment.

i used to work for a place that said no firearms were allowed on company property (including your car) but nobody really cared and nobody enforced it if it was out of sight in your car (trunk or elsewhere). if its left on the front seat or in plain view (on a rack) then probably you'd get disciplined, but we knew who had a CHL and didn't really go out of our way to find out if they had it or not.

[ojibweindian]

It's a pretty easy thing to handle. Just keep your mouth shut concerning things like this. And don't come off to others as being somewhat of a whack job.

[Richard.Howe]

THAT is the most encouraging statement I've heard yet regarding libertarianism. The acknowledgment that corporations and government are interwined hand in glove (to the detriment of individuals) is one that more libertarian types should recognize

See, the only thing about that is, I have rights entitled to me by the Constitution, but I have no right to work for a particular company. I have zero entitlement to walk up to a CEO and say, "you must hire me because I'm an American and/or qualified."

I can definitely say something akin to that to the Supreme Court -- "you have to give due process of law because I was born here legally, am protected by the Constitution, and no one has the right to deny it of me."

As long as they aren't breaking the law, corporations can be as wacky as they want -- and often are -- and employees can sue, quit, and stop buying their product.

They can not, however, demand to be employed by that organization.

Take care,
Rich

[mons meg]

This law was passed to cover the nit-picking BS that some employers complained about in a similar law passed last year but which was put on hold by the courts when 5 major OK employers brought suit against the state.

Werewolf, here's to hoping that now they'll have their immunity clause, they'll be smart and shut up about it.

[hvengel]

The company I retired from does not allow weapons in secure areas. This does not include the parking lots. The company also has a two shooting ranges (rifle & pistol, trap & skeet) that I and others from work used to go shooting at after work as a "trap team". In fact the company used to give us funding to help pay for our trap team as part of the employee recreation program. This is a very large multi-national fortune 100 company with over 50,000 employees.

[JohnKSa]

How could a private company get the Police to search your vehicle?They don't ask the police, they ask you to unlock it so they can look. If you refuse they fire you. It's not about the law, it's about keeping your job.Just keep your mouth shut concerning things like this.That doesn't work if they use "gun-sniffing" dogs to search the lot like they did in OK.

It wouldn't be such an issue if I lived 5 minutes from work, but I don't. I live 2 counties away. So this isn't so much about being unarmed at work--I'm not worried about being mugged in the company parking lot. It's about not being able to carry while I drive a total of about 2 hours and over 80 miles each day to and from work.