[Byron]

I need assisitance in finding the value of a Winchester 94. It was made for the 1999 Shot Show and less than 500 were made. It is Brushed Chrome and synthetic pistol grip stock. The barrel is 20" and magazine capicity is 4. It has sling swivel studs installed at the factory. The box and tags verify this. I called the factory and the 1999 Shot Show and number made were verified. Does anyone know of a value or how I can get a value on this. Thanks, Byron

[beerslurpy]

How can you have a pistol grip lever action gun? That doesnt make sense to me.

[Gewehr98]

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/images/534086m.jpg


Note the curved pistol grip and lever instead of the straight buttstock? ;)

[Rupestris]

Please - tell me you have a pic! :evil:

[Byron]

I do not have a picture but it is almost identical to the Black Shadow with the differences listed in my initial post. Byron

[Berek]

If it is, in fact, a model 94, the only one that has a mag cap of 4 is chambered for the .450 Marlin round. However, the only limited editions are Model 94, Custom Limited Edition, New Generation, & New Generation II. Both have a mag cap of 7 as it's only available in .30-30. None of the Model 94's have synthetic stocks. There is one that is dark stained American Walnut that looks black but that's it. I won't even get into the "pistol grip".

The Model 94 line is strictly lever action while the Black Shadow is the Model 1300 pump.

I would double check as nothing about this sounds correct.

Berek

[Byron]

Berek,please read my first post.It is confirmed from Winchester the rifle exists as described. If someone will advise how to post a picture, I'll try and get it done.Please keep in mind this was 1999. Thanks, Byron

[Flatfender]

Call these guys!

http://www.doublegun.com/roth.htm

[Berek]

What I found confusing was the comparison to the Black Shadow.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/images/512041m.jpg
Black Shadow


http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/images/534096m.jpg
Winchester 94 New Generation and New Generation II


As you can see, they look nothing alike. Combine that with "Pistol Grip Stock" in the original description and it sounds more like the full pistol grip on "assault" 1300's. Sorry for the confusion.


Berek

PS: To post pics, there is a button labeled "Manage Attachments" in the "Compose" screen (way down at the bottom). This will give you clickable thumbnails. To post a full pic, upload it to a website and while posting, click "Insert Image". Then insert the fully qualified URL in the box.

[Byron]

Rupectris is going to help post the pictures for me. Per the tag,it is a Chrome Black Shadow. Byron

[Rupestris]

Posted as an attachment for now. I'll have it uploaded on a host site soon.

Very nice Byron.
Wish I had the cash.

[Father Knows Best]

Yeesh. That's one ugly rifle.

[Waffen]

Call me crazy, but I kind of like it.

[Rupestris]

Call me crazy, but I kind of like it.

yeah, it kinda goes against any traditional 94 but its definitely unique. Funny thing is, if Winchester had that in their production line-up I wouldn't even consider it. I think its the fact that its kinda rare more than the design for me.

[Gewehr98]

Berek, what words do you have in response to that Black Shadow Model 94?

(Definitely a pistol grip, and definitely black synthetic...) :scrutiny:

[Berek]

I have several. When I post the Black Shadow 1300 picture, it was done after extensively searching their product database and after contacting a Winchester authorized dealer/gun smith. At the time, both Winchester and the dealer verified that the only model called the black shadow was the 1300. I even called Winchester at 800.333.3288 to try to get information on this firearm and was told that there was no Black Shadow designated in the Model 94 family. As you can see, the information given to me by the CSR at Winchester and their database may have been incorrect. It was also relayed to me that there was no synthetic stock available from Winchester for the 94. I looked into that specifically as I own a Model 94 with a wooden stock. I prefer synthetic for the field.

Now, Gewehr98, if you read the descriptions for the model 94, it is not a pistol grip, it is a semi pistol grip. You can read this for yourself at http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=105&cat=003C at it is called this as the angle is less than that of the standard pistol grip. You can see the difference in the pictures I posted earlier. 1300: Pistol grip. Model 94: Semi-pistol grip. Even the pic that was posted of the Model 94 in question shows a "Semi-Pistol Grip".

So, in a nutshell, here's where the majority of the confustion came in: Terminology and information provided to me by 3 sources. As it appears that the information was incorrect and incorrect terminology was provided, I apologize to Byron for the confusion.

BTW, Gewehr98, your overtone in your only two posts of this discussion was rather condescending. Your use of pistol grip was also incorrect. Get a grip. I can admit when I may be mistaken, but at least when attempting to illustrate what is being talked about, I can do it without looking like I'm attempting to start a flame war.

Berek

[Byron]

No apology needed.The 94 I have is a rare one.Now to find whart it is worth.
Byron

[Gewehr98]

I stand by my terminology. AR-15's, AK-47's, FN-FAL's, and Mossberg 590's aren't the exclusive domain of the pistol grip. They may have a separate, detached pistol grip protruding conspicuously from the receiver, but they are by no means the only firearms with pistol grip stocks.

Clue-bird example: The difference between the 1903 Springfield and 1903A1 Springfield was the changeover to the pistol grip stock. The new pistol grip stock, also known as the "C" stock, was adopted in December of 1929. That's well before I was born, so I didn't coin the pistol grip terminology used to describe the new variant of the rifle. The War Department did, and the term was common for non-military firearms of that period, too. (Examples to follow.) Now, if for some reason you think I'm pulling this out of an orifice, the War Department put the description into the technical manual TM 9-1270, "U.S. Rifles, Cal. .30, M1903, M1903A1, M18903A3, and M1903A4." I have a copy open before me right now, and it references the 1903A1 as having a pistol grip stock, while the 1903 has a straight stock. Same for my copy of TM 9-270, U.S. Rifle, Cal. .30 M1903A4 (Sniper's) - both government manuals refer to the pistol grip stocks of the M1903A1 and M1903A4. In case you don't know what a pistol grip stock looks like as defined by the War Department, I'll give you an example, my own 1944-vintage 1903A4 Sniper's rifle, complete with pistol grip:

http://mauser98.com/1903a4-3.jpg

And a page from the Technical Manual, note the terminology in the picture:

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/firearms_rifle_m1903.jpg

Compare that to the straight stock 1903:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1903-44r.jpg

Likewise, the Remington Model 8 rifle had a straight stock:

http://www.kimdutoit.com/ee/images/uploads/Rem_Mod_8_35Rem.jpg

While literature for the later Remington Model 81 advertised the pistol grip stock as a new feature:

http://www.rediscovered-shooting-treasures.com/remington81.jpg

So you're more than welcome to bust my chops. I know very well the difference. Matter of fact, I'm restoring a vintage Remington Rolling Block Creedmoor, and the new wood is in fact labeled as "pistol grip", to fit the curved upper and lower tangs of the receiver. You can also order a Sharps rifle, and specify whether you want a straight stock or pistol grip. Go ahead, look it up online. You don't suppose the folks at Sharps have cranial-rectal inversion syndrome, do you?

Now, if you want to initiate a one-man crusade to change firearm terminology because you feel that Winchester Model 94 above doesn't have an AR-15 or AK-47 style grip, knock yourself out. Myself, I think you'll have an uphill climb to convince those of us here who remember when the terminology was used to describe the difference between a straight stocked rifle, and one that offered a more comfortable shooting grip. As for the term "get a grip", perhaps more homework on your part would be advisable, especially before you tell other gun collectors point blank that their terminology is incorrect. My pistol grip rifles are just fine, thank you, and they were defined as such well before the SturmGewehr and Mossberg 590 came along.

Btw, thanks for the insight into your character. My ignore list now has one username. ;)

Byron, that's a very nice pistol-gripped Winchester Model 94 you have there. Take good care of it!

[Berek]

If you read the description at Winchester's website regarding the Model 94, you will see that your terminology is incorrect. Also, the grip shown in your example is much more curved than that of the 94. Pistol grip to me does not mean simply the AR style. Never mentioned that. The grip in the 1300 photo is a pistol grip. I know this.

If you read the post, I stated that it is the angle, not the style.

I feel privileged to be the only one on your ignore list and that you went through so much trouble to show that you do not even bother to read the entire post. Good luck with that. I hear that you can get menus with pictures too. Hope it helps.

Berek

[Byron]

Gentlemen, Life is short,let this pass.I remember each day the men lost in my infantry company in Nam 68-69. This is just a rifle.I appreciate y'alls interest.Thanks, Byron

[Berek]

Byron: too true. I'm done with this and am currently trying to find the info you're looking for. I found an article or two of similar firearms, but none had an MSRP in the description.

Berek

[Dragun]

not trying to pick at a scab, but i believe that is called a semi-pistol grip. at least when i bought my marlin .30-30 i thought thats what they called it. when i bought it, winchester 94 only had a straight grip and top eject (not made for scope) and thats the main reason i chose marlin.

oh i forgot to why i was posting, winchester no longer makes guns. they are made by U.S. Repeating Arms Co.

Gun Information
Winchester Guns are manufactured by the U.S. Repeating Arms Co. For more information on Winchester Guns, visit their excellent website at http://www.winchester-guns.com.

[Berek]

Dragun: Been to the website. When you call the 888 number, They answer Winchester but supply info for both Winchester and US Reaping Arms. Neither had info on the firearm in question. Thanks for the reply tho...


Berek

PS: Just got the latest Winchester catalog. The Model 94 is listed left and right but no synthetic stock to be found.

[Berek]

BTW, Byron, a trivial piece of info is missing. What cal is it?

Berek

[Byron]

The 94 is a 30-30. I have the 2000 Winchester catalog and the Black Shadow is listed but the barrel is blue and no sling swivels. I do have a copy of an email from Winchester that under 500 of the brushed chrome models were made. Byron

[Berek]

Ok, Byron, I have a good lead. I was dead-ended by not having the SN but you can call 1-800-782-4440 ext 378 and talk to Delores. She should be there for about 45 more minutes and tomorrow from 8am to 12 Mountain Standard time.

She said if she had the serial number, she could find the MSRP. Hope this helps.

Berek

[JohnBT]

http://forums.mi5clan.com/images/smilies/sofa.gif


I can't find anything on it.

[Byron]

I contacted Delores with the serial number. She transferred me to the Winchester Historian.He remember the gun and knows they have increased in value but not sure how much.He will try to find info and get back at some future date.I appreciate all y'alls help. Byron

[Berek]

Just curious.

Berek

[Byron]

I never heard anything further from Winchester. I would still like to know its value. Byron

[fisherman66]

In the shotgun world (or at least my hunting circle regarding shotguns) the "pistol" grip stock is refered to as an American style stock (Marlin Lever guns) vs. the English style stock (as in the traditional Win '94 straight stock.)

Maybe it is used only to describe shotguns, but I have used that terminology interchangably.

(rant coming)
I admit I am somewhat confused by the manufacturers who turn out what I see as a very traditional firearm (one that has sold for around 100 years and without much design change, for a caliber that has an equally impressive timeline - in a low cup) and dress that gun in plastic and brushed steel or chrome. OK, I understand the brushed steel (not that I like it.) but plastic does not belong on such a distinguished and history rich rifle.

I don't mean any offense. I don't know if my opinion is representative of group think. I would be proud to own that rare piece (but I would be replacing the stocks.)

[Byron]

Fisherman, no offense taken.I too feel a walnut stock would look good.I think Winhester was trying to create an ultimate weather resistance woods rifle.Regardless, I am glad to have it.It is a thought though of replacing the stock.It seems so few were produced that a value will be hard to establish.
Byron