[TMM]

i have a buddy who wants to keep dogs away from his animals... they already killed a sheep i think... he was thinking of a 12g., .22lr autoloader, and i suggested an SKS.

which would you guys suggest? the .22 ammo is cheap, but i think he'd need to plug a few rounds and then some into an angry dog to kill it. he seems interested in the SKS, but he likes the shottie because of different loads he could make. what would you choose?

~TMM

[El Tejon]

A rifle. A farm needs a good centerfire rifle.

I did most of my varmit killing (crows, coyotes, feral dogs, pigeons, hedgehogs, etc.) with my Uncle's Ruger No. 1 in .22-250. A nice light .243 is a good choice too.

Lots of good guns. Find something he likes and have it become part of him.

[natedog]

Most of the ranchers around here prefer .22-250 or other centerfire .22 bolt action rifles for use against coyotes. Should work well on dogs as well, as long as you have some distance between you and them.

[mete]

Single dogs or packs ? I'd use a 223 semi-auto. While I've found a 12 ga with #4 shot works well you're limited in range.With handguns I like 40 or 45. One friend with sheep found a very large dog stalking him !! Packs of dogs and long range require a semi-auto rifle.

[nitesite]

.22 LR rimfire zeroed for 50 yards has what, ohhhh, maybe 20" drop at 150-yards. Hardly a good time to be guessing while a feral dog/coyote or whatever is threatening livestock.

Go centerfire rifle between .22-250 (expensive factory ammo) .220 Swift (also expensive) .223 (quite reasonable in price) or .243 Winchester (my personal choice).

[Joe Meyer]

A cheap Savage 30-06, .270, .308, or a .243 are good. I use a Savage 30-06 for wild dogs. A centerfire rifle will kill a dog, good or bad, far or near. Otherwise I would go for the 12.ga.

[MLH]

Nuff said! ;)

[Joe Meyer]

When a pack of wild dogs are eating your sheep, you don't just check on them once in while. You get out there with a RIFLE and wait for them(the dogs). I should know 'cause I've done it.

[sakredchao]

well, tmm showed me this thread, so i thought i'd stop by and set the record straight, if i'm goingot be reading opinions.

i don't live on a farm. i live on a quarter acre of land and i keep a few chickens (25 birds) and a couple goats. the dogs killed one of my cats, which by itself is annoying, and worthy of warning shots, not really deserving death. they then went on to kill 40 of my neighbors birds. that is a bad habit for dogs to get into.

so, i keep a 12gauge loaded with 00buckshot, which i deem to be suffecient for the task. and, you know, it's what we had lying around. that and #7 fieldshot, which would be pointless other than to just chase them off, and they done screwed the chance of that up.

my neighbor who lost the birds had a clear shot once and got off one round with a rifle of some sort and missed by a couple feet. within a minute another neighbor had popped off a round with his .22 at them.

there are 2 or 3 (depending on the day) dogs resembling german shepherds and one smallish black lab. they run at the sound of gunshot, like any self preserving dog would.

now, i'm not exactly a "gun guy". only a few weeks ago i fired a 12gauge for the first time in my life, and that was the first gun i've fired since i was 4 and shot my dads' .22 and it kind of scared me.

i would like to get a 12gauge, cause i can make saltrounds (packed with a little butter or lard if i'm feeling especially sadistic.).. and i can use everything from birdshot and eat rabbit in the winter. to a slug, and do.. i don't know, but i like the idea of a portable cannon.

on the other hand, i can get a .22 autoloader for about 125$ and get a few shots off at them, as well as having something to learn to shoot accurately with. (using inexpensive ammo)

my instinct tells me that i should learn to shoot with the .22.. but i don't have a lot of money to be throwing around after guns.. a .22 would just injure the dog(s), and at this point they should be put down, seeing as they think chickens are food for them. so, perhaps the shotgun would be better, cause my aim sucks (having shot off 5 or 6 rounds ever)..

for the longest time i didn't want a gun, and i always sort of looked at the older folks around here who went around with a sidearm dislayed on their hip as being excessive.. at least until recently when one neighbor had to scare off a cougar from his goats while herding them home, and this business with the bird eating dogs... i guess i'm sold on the idea that firearms are necessary living out in the sticks if you've got stock.

thanks for your input,
kim

[Clean97GTI]

I'd rather have something with a bit of a report to it.

My choice would probably be an SKS.
If I wanted something for larger threats, a Mosin-Nagant carbine would be my pick. Cheap weapon, cheap ammo, guaranteed to go bang.

[Dave Markowitz]

My $0.02:

.22 LR and even .22 Magnum are too light for dogs. Something in a .22 centerfire should work OK, though. A Savage bolt action in .223 would be reasonably priced. Another alternative that would be cheaper would be an SKS in 7.62x39. Either .223 or 7.62x39 should have enough oomph for dogs but still have light recoil.

[slzy]

m44 m-n

[Marshall]

Ruger's Deerfield Carbine would make a nice farm rifle.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/30L.gif

[sakredchao]

i suppose that i should add that i'm very poor.

a little poorer than that.

kim

[MudPuppy]

depending on how big a piece of property and what's behind the dogs, I'd likely go with the SKS. Otherwise, the 12ga is a good choice if they're closer and you need to worry about neighbors.

The 30/30 is a good choice too--but you can get a beat up sks for $120 or less. I've seen mossy 12ga new for about the same.

22 is too light unless they're weiner dogs.

[Marshall]

Ok, if money is a big issue I would go buy a used 30.30. There's only about a billion of them out there and some are hardly used. Tough to beat good .30 caliber lever gun.

[Cosmoline]

The first question is where does the fellow live? A .30/30 or 12 ga. pump shotgun are firearms best suited for woodland or mountain farms. Those firearms are portable, easy to swing in brushy areas, and fast handling. The assumption is you won't be making many shots beyond 150 yards and you may well have to do some serious hoofing to get their. In a way the terrain is similar to that found up here along the Big Su.

If I owned a lot of acres in the SW or mountain west and was looking at the potential for a) longer shots and b) less legwork and more driving/riding to get their, I'd want something with more range. A nice scoped varmint rifle would be in order.

It appears that we're dealing with a dog problem in a very small chicken farm in NM. I'd say a .44 Magnum carbine or .223 would be good choices. For 12 ga., I'd load with slugs instead of shot. The shot would be a better choice for the chickens. But I suspect either would work. A .22LR is a horrible, horrible choice for medium or large dogs. It is, in fact, grotesque and cruel. That's a poacher's round. If you're in your rights killing the dogs, by god DO IT RIGHT and blow them apart with a proper firearm!! Don't send them yelping off with a .22 wound festering.

A .12 ga Mossberg 500 would be hard to beat. You can find used ones in pawn shops for $150. They're pretty much impossible to destroy, and you can load them with an array of shells. If you're going to be trying to hit a dog but avoid blowing chickens away, you might consider getting one with a sighted "slugster" barrel. I used mine to precisely cut the tops off spruce trees from 50 yards, so they can be as accurate as a rifle at close range.

I like the Mosin-Nagant option, but I must admit those are very "foreign" rifles to most eyes and your chances of getting help from a neighbor if you have problems making it work right are slim. The 12 ga. requires less study time.

[stevelyn]

Ever think about a combo gun? Like maybe a Savage 24V or a EAA/Baikal (which I think is now a part of Remington's Spartan line).
Having grown up on a farm, I found you either need to have a scattergun and a rifle nearby or one that can do both. A 12 ga/.22/.22Hornet/.223 combo would be perfect depending on your needs and distances.

[meef]

A .22LR is a horrible, horrible choice for medium or large dogs. It is, in fact, grotesque and cruel. That's a poacher's round. If you're in your rights killing the dogs, by god DO IT RIGHT and blow them apart with a proper firearm!! Don't send them yelping off with a .22 wound festering.
I could not agree more with that statement! Absolutely right. A .22 LR should not even be a consideration.

[Ash]

Having actually worked with my grandfather on the farm, I can tell you he carried a Winchester 94 in 30-30 and a Remington Model 11 shotgun. The shotgun was used mostly for armadillos, but also for rabid racoons, a problem in the panhandle of Florida. I can't say I ever remembered seeing him shoot anything with the 30-30, but he did have a holster for it on his tractor.

Ash

[HSMITH]

The best feral dog gun I have found is a 220 swift, followed by a 25-06, followed closely by a 243 and a 22-250. The swift kills a dog so fast they don't know what happened, the lights just went out. The others listed also do very well, and the 25-06 has terrific potential for long range shots.

Just be sure you are killing strays. A dog with a collar and tags that isn't actually seen killing or harassing livestock deserves a second chance, write down a description and ask around within a couple miles about a dog with a collar and tags. The second time you see the same dog collar or not shoot him and bury him. If a dog with a collar and tags is in the livestock and attacking by all means kill it right then and there.

Another thing, make darn sure you kill any dog you shoot. It would really make you feel like a jerk to shoot a dog only to have it make it home and pile up on the porch covered with blood and have the kids see him.

Shooting dogs is something to be taken very seriously IMO, I am a big time dog lover and it is hard for me to do but I can and have shot them when it was needed.

[nitesite]

Okay, let me revise my suggestion now that I know you are on a fairly small piece of property.

Forget centerfire bolt-action rifles chambered in .22 to .30-cal. because they usually require a scope and 1/4-acre is no place to be using a scope. You should be looking at an iron (open)-sighted rifle, maybe the SKS which costs $150 and ammo is dirt cheap. Or a used Marlin 336 in .30-30-cal although the ammo costs a bit more. You should be able to get either for $150.

If ricochets are a risk to neighbors or livestock or other property, consider an H&R single shot shotgun for around $90. Most pest dogs will stop coming around if they are stung once or twice with #7-1/2 shot from 40-yards.

Either way, them varmints will learn to find other smorgasbords if they are being scared (or) peppered (or) shot at by something that has a big sound. Shotgun or SKS or .30-30 will do exactly that at a bargain price of $150 or less and ammo is very cheap.

I agree with others that .22LR usually leaves a festering wound in a horribly suffering wounded animal. That is something which I find unethical and would avoid at any cost.

[timuchin]

Where do you live? In the country? On the edge of town? How close are your neighbors? Do you have to worry about which direction you are shooting in? Are you surrounded by trees, or is it open land? Can you see your neighbor's houses? Are you within city limits? Are any of your neighbors gun people? Will you be needing a gun after the dog problem is taken care of? Maybe borrow a gun if you cannot afford one? What kinds of ammo are commonly available where you live? Do you live near a larger town? Near a gun store? Wal-Mart? These are all things to think about when you are deciding on ONE firearm if that is all that your budget will allow. If money is the biggest issue, you cannot beat a single shot break action 12 guage. You can get one brand new for under a hundred bucks. In the latest issue of Handloader magazine they refer to single shot shotguns as the guns that really won the west. I tend to agree. It is difficult to find a farmhouse without one. I can't think of anyone I know that owns guns that hasn't had one at one time or another. For most of us, it was our first shotgun. As you said, shotguns are extremely versatile. Slugs, birdshot, buckshot, any load is available for any occasion. And, 12 guage shells are readily available anywhere. If your budget can stand it, a pump or an autoloader is a much better option. If you live in a rural community, then you know that money is only one of many ways to pay for something. Anyone who is into guns is also into trade. The .22 is cheap, easy to shoot, and will do in a pinch. Not the best selection for dogs though. I'm sure it would piss them off enough that you wouldn't have to worry about them returning for a while. As for the SKS, is the fact that the bullet will carry quite a ways going to be a problem? How about the availability of ammunition? .30 Russian isn't all that common in all parts of the country. What distances are you going to be shooting at? 100 yards? Less? More? The sks will deliver out to about 300, and that will be REALLY stretching it for someone who is just learning to shoot. The 12 guage will hit its limit at about a hundred yards with slugs, less than 50 with buckshot, less than 20 with birdshot. Plus the lack of sights can be difficult for beginners. Shotguns are prety easy to learn though.

Finally, are you sure that guns are the way to go here? How are your state laws on trapping? Might be easier and less expensive.

[chunk]

yugo sks & 1000 rounds of ammo $$220.00 it will drop dogs or cougars :evil:

[Dr.Rob]

Single shot 12 ga... no doubt.

Nope. An H&R Shotgun will do.. combinded with co-ordinating your defense with your neighbors. I'd look at 00 buckshot (or #4buckshot as a minimum) for doing in feral dogs, if you just want to 'scare them off' any noisemaker could work... but it sounds like they have a taste for chicken now.

You don't scare a fox away from your hen house, you shoot him. Check with your local DOW as a 'rancher' you likely don't need a permit.

Funny thing is years ago the BAR was sold 'for ranch defense' but it doesn't sound like you need a fully automatic 30-06. :D

[sakredchao]

i live in a rural area, in the foothills of some mountains. no trees, just a bunch of sagebrush. i have 7 or 8 neighbors i can see.. maybe within 1/4 mile or so. half of them don't live there, and most of the other half are gunning for these dogs also. and, those who might care don't have a phone and don't really like the police. (not that there are any around other than the occasional stater. they'll come out, but would probably go tell the person who called then out to not bother them again about something like that.) it's the wild wild west out here, baby.

i'm currently borrowing a 12ga singleshot breakaction (i think.. you split it in half to pull out the spent shell..) perhaps a 30/30 is the best way to go. ideally i would like to get to be a decent shot. shotguns don't facilitate that. and, maybe i could just borrow a .22 while i learn to shoot. i have enough open space around that i can shoot as far as the round will go, so long as i don't shoot across the highway.. my father also suggested that i get a larger round than a .22 for the injured dog problem.

i have been asking around. no one really knows whose dogs they are, although i suspect that a couple of them belong to a guy up the hill who is reknowned for not feeding his animals. he was told about it. i've been telling everyone i know that those dogs have a limited lifespan. and, herabouts, word spreads fast. honestly, i don't really care whose dogs they are. i know where i live, and so do they. out here, you let your dogs run and they come home, it's a good day for them. watch your animals if you value them.. goes both ways..

i plan on doing a little bartering if i can. and, if i do barter for some old gun, will i get in trouble for possessing it? wht do i need to do to make sure that it's all okay? is it legal to own a gun without my name being on some crazy list somewhere? is there some informational site on this sort of thing so you all don't have to repeatedly answer my innane ignorant questions?

this also poses another question for me.. how do i find out if i qualify or whatever to pass the fbi check? is there some website that will run my name and info for me? i got in a little trouble when i was a minor. i never dealt with the expungement paperwork, cause it's in a different state.

i appreciate the advice here. thank you all.
it's cool seeing a couple people here from my homestate, alaska. (the big city..juneau). i bet the fellow in the hellyhansons is wearing xtratuffs. i hate those boots.. no offense.


edit: on an extra note, i haven't lost any birds cause my pen it pretty damn tight. but i still don't like the idea of them being around whith those habits.

kim

[Jordan]

Most farmers I've known have spent a great deal of time repairing their fences and would regard with suspicion any effort to "defence" their land... with a rifle or by any other means! ;) ;)

For farm defense, on the other hand, I'd choose a scout type rifle (Cooper concept) in .308. Handy, quick, while not giving anything up on accuracy.

[artherd]

Accurized, scoped (low power given your range) AR. I would want the option of a follow-up shot, and the power of a .223

[owen]

Jordan, artherd, you're missing the point, the guy doesn't have a lot of money.

I agree with the H&R break open suggestion. 12 gauge is fine, but I think I would prefer 20 gauge, because those little shotguns recoil hard.

For fast moving dogs, I think he would want #4 buck. I think 00 isn't going to provide a dense enough pattern for a coyote sized dog past 20 yards or so.

He should also be able to find one in .30-30 for under $100.

Oh, sakredchao, skip the rocksalt. If your target doesn't need to die, don't shoot a gun at it. Those salt loads are a bit more lethal than you would expect, and killing things by accident is bad for your freedom.

[c_yeager]

Perfect situation for an SKS, if you ask me.

[TheHomelandSoldier]

I'm obviously biased, for I created this potoshop:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/249839.jpg

Besides an M1A, I would say an AK or AR. Multi-purpose weapons.

[Ash]

For not a whole lot of money, a decent used break open or pump action shotgun can be had in the $100 range. Heck, for dogs, a bolt action shotgun in decent shape can be cheaper than either of the above as they are very much out of favor these days. I'd wager you could get a 12 gauge Mossberg bolt shotgun for $50 without too much trouble. It would have the benefit of having one round in the chamber and two in the magazine, three total shots can beat a single shot. They aren't much to look at, but they can get the job done quite nicely.

In that vein, though, I have a Mossberg 500 pump, 2/34 or 3" magnum with an improved choke tube screwed in that I paid $100 out the door. The wood is in good shape, the reciever has most of the finish on it, and for 1/4 acre it would make quite an effective anti-dog/rabid raccoon weapon.

Ash

[24kshooter]

sak - +1 for Cosmoline - as you are not really a shooter a shotgun would serve you well and is inexpensive. From my perspective chickens are food - people food.

[The Drew]

yugo SKS, it's cheap (around $100) ammo's cheap ($100 for 1000 hp's) it's semi auto, AND comes with a nice BAYO if you really get into trouble... It should be plenty accurate as well... AND have enough power to kill just about anything you run up against that would be attacking the animals on the farm.

[dfaugh]

I your neighbors are within 1/4 mile I'd be very careful using a rifle...ricochets and such...I would recommend and SKS(cheap and reliable), but the cheapo ammo is usually hardball, which is prone to ricochet.

Suspect a shotgun is still your best bet..00 buck is pretty effective out to 50 yards, but loses velocity fast, and lead balls aren't likely to ricochet very far....

Rimfire is definite no-no, not nearly enough power to kill a large dog
humanely, unless you can guarantee a perfect headshot. (I have a .22 I use for pest control, but with the scope, I can hit a dime at 50 yards with it. And, if I had to shoot a dog, would probably still opt for shotgun w/ 00 buck)

[Commissar Gribb]

I like the Mosin-Nagant option, but I must admit those are very "foreign" rifles to most eyes and your chances of getting help from a neighbor if you have problems making it work right are slim. The 12 ga. requires less study time.

firstly: mosins are designed to be conscript proof. If you need help to get it to work right- you may also be the sort that needs to ask a neighbor for problems with tying your shoes. :banghead:

secondly: mosins are built in a way that they operate similar to a mauser action. If you have a bolt action rifle- you already know how to use a mosin.

thirdly: I dare say a mosin has less moving parts than most 12 ga. shotguns out there. They're very cheap, effective at range, require little skill/knowledge to operate and are extremely reliable.

[sakredchao]

well, i'm sold on the idea of not using a .22 for much other than target practice. i'll ask around about an sks and a 30/30. i suspect that availability will determine my choice as much as preference. i think i'd perfer a rifle over a shotgun, cause it would require that i learn to shoot well, something i'd like to do anyway. and, perhaps, someday i'll feel that i'm accurate enough to go hunting and get meat for the year.

i really appreciate everyones' input on this. i wish i had the wherewithal to get some of the nicer firearms mentioned here, but i'm sure that a simple little inexpensive thing will suit my purposes just fine.

thanks!

kim

[Ash]

Before I got my Marlin 336 or Mossberg 472, I used a Mosin 91/59 carbine as my own farm rifle. Short enough not to get in the way too much, light enough to carry about as needed, and more powerful than either of my two lever guns. I carried Barnaul 204 grain soft points, which were cheap (and corrosive, regardless of what the package said) and were more than powerful enough for what ever I might encounter. Mine even looked nice with a stock that was a deep, deep reddish brown and perfect bluing.

The Mosin would be the least likely to give any trouble other than a break-open shotgun and would be as reliable a feeder as you can get. But, with such a small lot, I would tend to stick with a shotgun.

Ash

[Ash]

Then I would recommend a 30-30 lever gun as it won't cost any more than an SKS and will be more accurate. Plus, it is less likely to frighten neighbors.

Ash

[Knife_Sniper]

50 rounds of a downsized .223 ish cartridge...
Thats allot of dead doggies!

http://www.fnherstal.com/html/p90/P90.jpg

[sakredchao]

ricochets are almost a nonexistant problem where i'd be shooting, it's an old drained lakebed and there are no rocks out there in that direction. also, i live on the top of a hill, and i'd be firing down in every direction except the highway, which i won't aim at. unless sagebrush is going to ricochet a round, which i seriously doubt. i've seen what an ak47 round does to a sagebrush trunk...i'm suprised that the thing was still upright.

but, on the ricochet note. i was considering stacking log rounds 18" - 30" diameter, 2 rows deep for use as a backdrop to target practice. i'd stack them so that i couldn't see light though anywhere, and there is nothing behind them other than a dirt road that is only used 3 times a week, and i can see it pretty good, so i'm not worried about hitting anything on it if a round goes through.. but, my question is, is it likely to ricochet off the flatside of a log round? i have seen those metal targets that swing when you hit em, but i can't fork out the 60$ or whatever they cost for one of them.. log rounds are cheap and easy to aquire. also. is there any danger of a round hitting an old embedded round in the log and doing something undesirable. i sort of know that guns are powerful things, but don't really know what that power does in practice.

thanks all for your patience with my lack of knowledge and endless questions.. and also your patience in hijacking my own thread and asking offtopic questions.

as for scaring the neighbors.. people out here fire off a round every now and again to do just that. well, not so much scare as to communicate "i have a firearm." there is almost no theft or violent crime out here cause everyone has a gun, and most of them carry it around all the time on their hip. it's legal to carry here, but not to conceal without a permit, and not in federal buildings or places that sell alcohol. people will only try to do something stupid if they think you're unarmed.. but of course you all know this already.

there was a time, back in the 70s.. the locals call it the spanish-hippy war. peoples houses were burned down and a lot of rounds were exchanged between both groups. the spanish were trying to drive the hippies off. well, after they realized that a lot of these hippies were vietnam vets and were well armed and well trained, they decided that they were "allright and could stay". which they did, and there's still a lot of prejudice twards the anglos, but that's better than gunshots. rather be hated than holey.

the moral of todays' story is, "a round a day keeps the trouble away."

i reread the whole thread again just for review, and the second post caught my attention, the one about me making it a part of myself. i saw "army of darkness", and i think that is a little excessive. or, was that a chainsaw...

kim

[one-shot-one]

my only concern with the shotgun is if your trying to "remove" the preditors while they are in extremely close to the "prey" that your trying to protect might end up with some freindly fire casulities.

[Soap]

A used 30/30 levergun is perfect.

[pauli]

i'll fall in with the 30-30 and shotgun crowds. these are the most likely to be available to you cheap, and will certainly do their part once you've learned how to do yours.

can you measure the longest shot you'll have to take? i think it might help a bit.

[Domino]

The SKS sounds like it would be the most bang for your buck. Check out Aim Surplus (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_Model_59_66_7_62x39_SKS_Rifle.html) as they have thiers for $100-150. I would get an excellent condition Yugo 59 myself, if you can still find one. AMMO (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=243577) can be found very cheaply as well.

The SKS is not a beginners gun but, it would likely do what you want. As far as the .22 not bieng able to kill dogs, well I doubt that. I really close friend of mine takes deer all the time with CCI stingers :uhoh:, I know I know I try to tell him its wrong but, he claims to have excellent results with lung shots.

Anyways, my point is that something like a 10/22 Carbine (http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=39) would work for 50 yard shots or so and make a great training gun for right around $150.

But, If you want something to practice with and kill dogs at 100 yard ranges than I have to reccomend a Marlin 982 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/boltAction22magWClip/982VS.htm#). They can be bought at Wal-Mart for about $200 or so and they are really a perfect gun for a beginner varmint shooter. Mine shoots under 1 MOA and my dad has taken a coyote with it at about 120 yards.

I would get the Marlin for your particular purposes but, if you want an all-around rifle than the SKS fits the bill.

[sakredchao]

these dogs seem to like to stick to the roads when they're running away. if they run into the sagebrush it slows them down and they have to jump over it, or zigzag around it.

i have a clear, straight road (thanks to my pickaxe) for about 1000 feet or so, if i'm remembering my land map correctly. so i think the projectile would run out of effective range before my clear shot was gone.

as for the dogs being near my birds, they haven't and probably won't. i made the lower 4 feet out of wooden pallets, and have rocks around the base to prevent digging, and chickenwire above it up to 12 feet. i don't have the money to lose birds to predators. but again, they have unacceptable habits, so i'm going to deal with them.

i don't ever plan to shoot at anything that is actually -on- my land. i would wait for it to leave my land and then let off a round. my place is too crowded to be firing shots at anything.

i'll probably pick an empty lot around me to set up a range, so i can practice at ranges of 50-100 yards, which is about what i'd expect to be shooting the dogs at..

kim

[wdlsguy]

how do i find out if i qualify or whatever to pass the fbi check? is there some website that will run my name and info for me? i got in a little trouble when i was a minor. i never dealt with the expungement paperwork, cause it's in a different state.

Q: "Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms?"

A: "Yes, a person who –

(1) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice;
(3) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(4) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa;
(6) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) Having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her 8 citizenship;
(8) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(9) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U. S. C. 922( g) and (n), 27 CFR 178.32( a) and (b)]"

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b5

[rugerdude]

How about a Lee Enfield? Plenty of power, loud as hell, and the no.4 mk.1 has aperature sights and a lighning-fast bolt-action. 10 round detachable magazine that can be loaded with stripper clips to boot.

Gun: Mine was 150 in very good condition.
Ammo: Corrosive surplus: 8 bucks for 32 rounds or non-corrosive portugese is 7 bucks for 20 rounds.

[Cosmoline]

firstly: mosins are designed to be conscript proof. If you need help to get it to work right- you may also be the sort that needs to ask a neighbor for problems with tying your shoes.

I love Mosins, and I've owned several dozen of them over the years. The fact is, there's quite a bit about them that is very different from anything made stateside. If you get one, you can expect to do some on-line research about how to break down the bolt and put it back together at the very least. There's also the matter of selecting ammunition, which can be complicated. For someone who has NO interest in doing any homework, I would not recommend a Mosin or ANY European rifle. I'd suggest a Mossberg 500 slugster or a .30/30. These are going to be far more familiar to most folks in the country, and you don't have to worry about corrosive ammunition.

[Commissar Gribb]

love Mosins, and I've owned several dozen of them over the years. The fact is, there's quite a bit about them that is very different from anything made stateside. If you get one, you can expect to do some on-line research about how to break down the bolt and put it back together at the very least. There's also the matter of selecting ammunition, which can be complicated. For someone who has NO interest in doing any homework, I would not recommend a Mosin or ANY European rifle. I'd suggest a Mossberg 500 slugster or a .30/30. These are going to be far more familiar to most folks in the country, and you don't have to worry about corrosive ammunition.

the bolt is rather simple once you get past the basic mechanics- assuming he ever bothers to strip it. 5 minutes browsing www.surplusrifle.com will answer any questions regarding that. :cool:

I find just buying winchester white box 7.62 x 54 solves the guesswork of picking ammos. as with any military weapons- you can find cheaper milsurp but there are actually quite a few companies that make new production mosin ammo.


The SKS is not a beginners gun but, it would likely do what you want.

not exactly rocket science either. Of most milsurp rifles out there I would say the SKS is more accomadating to a beginner due to the hardiness of the mechanisms, simple operation and access to replacement parts.

[JJE]

Howdy, it's my first post!

Quote: i'll probably pick an empty lot around me to set up a range, so i can practice at ranges of 50-100 yards, which is about what i'd expect to be shooting the dogs at..

I'm a lever-action lover, and if you aren't going to hunt medium-sized game, you could get a lever gun chambered in .38 spl/.357 magnum. Plenty of power for a dog-sized animal at those ranges with .357 ammo - maybe a bit harder to find used than a .30-30, though. Cheap ammo, no recoil and not a lot of noise. Not a bad choice for self-defense, either.

But, if you think you might hunt deer, the .30-30 would be a great choice.

[Eightball]

Welcome to THR!

[Red Tornado]

You've got several good choices and all of them available at good prices. In summary:

I love Mosins and that may be your cheapest avenue. It's an excellent choice. However, it may have a bit much noise and recoil for you starting out. A cheap Mauser would be about the same, for all practical purposes, but they usually run a bit more.

I also love SKSs and don't see a downside if you find one for a good price.

30/30s are great, but the ammo is going to be quite a bit more, since there's no surplus available.

A break open 12GA will do everything and is probably available for less than $75 dollars, maybe $50.

Pretty much any of the above will be well priced and completely adequate. The deciding factor will probably be: What can you find locally at the best price? Get that, and you'll be fine. Good luck with everything.
RT

[Fred Fuller]

Back in the good old days at home in AL, most every farm truck had a single shot shotgun or a bolt action .22 rimfire in the gun rack. Those were considered sufficient to handle whatever pest problems arose on most farms. And in almost all cases they worked fine.

But then the coyotes started showing up. They were a real problem, harassing cattle, killing newborn calves, etc. Relatively low powered short range firearms weren't doing the job any more, and all of a sudden scoped bolt action centerfire rifles were showing up in a lot of farm trucks. They are still there, among the folks who run cattle.

I got my first centerfire rifle in about 1975, when this change started happening. It was a Ruger M77 in 6mm Remington. My grandfather thought it was little short of a miracle. Before I went off to college full time he would come by the house every so often and yell, "Get your gun!" There would be feral dogs or coyotes after a cow or calf, and he'd drive to within a few hundred yards and stop so i could shoot. He was always amazed at how far the flat-shooting 70 gr. bullets would reach. We buried a lot of trouble that last couple of years I was at home.

I'd recommend either a .223 or a .243 in one of the little NEF single shots, with a standard weight barrel and a decent scope. They are accurate and cheap by comparison. Not at all fancy, but they will get the job done. A shotgun generally lacks the range and a .22 rimfire lacks power. I'd use lighter bullets, 45 grain Winchester white box varmint loads do well in the .223, and the 65-75 grain .243 varmint bullets generally will too. The lightly constructed bullets are less of a worry than full bore .30s in similar circumstances.

lpl/nc

[GunGoBoom]

Well, it depends on whether you want to kill them or scare them off.

You said yourself that since they're eating chickens, they need to be put down. So forget about shotgun salt rounds then. Therefore, I'd opt for the very low-priced SKS on your budget, which gives you a much longer range than a .22 rimfire or shotgun slug (though not as much range as a .223 or .243 for example - however, on your budget, it's probably the best choice). Using birdshot on an animal like a dog is not humane, IMO, because enough lead may lodge in them, making for a slow, painful death. If your goal is to scare them off, then the 12 ga with salt or lard rounds would work, albeit giving you very limited range.

On second thought, Lee's idea of an NEF single shot in .243 or .223 would be even better (longer practical range), and not *much* more $$ than an SKS.

[sakredchao]

so much to consider.

yes, these dogs needs ot be put down, however, in the future, if dogs start coming around, it would be nice to be able to scare them off without killing them, if all they are doing is looking around. i suppose that a shot across the bow with pretty much anything would do the trick.. but with a shotgun it makes it a little harder to get close and not hit them, this is wheni might use salt.. but, maybe one loud 30/30 boom and some flying dirt would be enough to scare the piss out of em, discouraging them from visiting again.

i really appreciate all of this.. i feel like when i get home next week, i'll be a little more prepared to talk to people about what i'm looking for. (i'm away for the week building a pergola for my mom).

one question about the requirements to be able to possess a firearm.. "domestic violence" means your own domecile, like wife and kids, right? when i was a younger kid than i am now (minor) i was arrested for going to a persons house and "discussing" with him threats on my life he had been making. i was arrested but released the same day. i should be okay to have a legal gun then?

and, if i buy the gun off of a fellow who doens't need his rifle anymore, do i have to register it? or do i just have to fit those qualifications?

thanks again all!

kim

[owen]

sakred, that would be aggravated assault. If you weren't convicted, you should be good to go.

[dakotasin]

sakred- you aren't going to scare them off, loud boom or not. if they have found a food source, you might scare them off for a few hours, maybe even the night, but they'll be back. don't screw around w/ 'em.

our 'farm defense' battery is pretty extensive, but if i were looking to find something on the cheap that would do the job because i was without and was in need, i'd look for a mauser bolt gun. turks are pretty cheap, and will do the job.

and, bird shot is an effective killer at close range. currently, there are 3 rottweilers and a pair of mixed-breed dogs laying under our cornfield that will attest to that - 12 ga, 6-shot high brass, less than 20 yards...

'course, if i was serious about defense against critters like these, a bolt gun in 308 w/ a 16-20" barrel loaded w/ 165's of some flavor would work nicely for as far as i care to shoot 'em.

[wasrjoe]

An SKS is an excellent choice. You have internet access (maybe not at home but at least within reach from what I can tell) - so learning all you need to know about the rifle (which isn't much!) will take a few minutes. I disagree that it is not a good beginner's rifle - it worked very well as a beginner rifle for me.

Soft points are easy to find in 7.62x39 (at least for my neck of the woods - I can't imagine it being hard anywhere else, it's such a common caliber). Wolf carries them. Would work well on dogs.

Best of all, the rifle's fun as hell.

[sakredchao]

dakotasin, these dogs i'm trying to kill. other, future, dogs may deserve the benefit of the doubt. i'll only kill dogs who have crossed a certain line, and that's not necessarily my property line.

kim

[Scoupe]

I have to agree with the SKS suggestions. Cheap own, cheap to shoot, very effective round for your stated purpose. You might have to travel a little to find one, but ammo can be delivered to your doorstep.

BTW, beautiful country you live in. 20-25 years ago, I used to spend time across the bridge and south of Arroyo Hondo (Stagecoach Springs) but now days I steer clear of the Taos area completely. Still spend time on the NM backroads and try to drive NM 4 once every couple years at least. Got relatives in the south (Las Cruces) and there's still plenty of New Mexico to go camping and hiking in without running into the artsy-fartsy crowd at every turn.

[roscoe]

sakredchao,

Hey - I have a friend from down in Arroyo Hondo who was involved in those 'spanish-hippy' wars. Sounds like wild times - ax handles and rifles seem to have been the weapons of choice. Sometimes you have to kick a little ass to get respect, I guess.

I think a lever-action 30-30 is a great way to go, but there are other rifles, like the SKS that are as cheap, have about the same accuracy, and that shoot comparable rounds. One thing about the 30-30 is that the ammunition is not really that cheap - about $5-$10 for a box of 20. The SKS is a great rifle, cheap and durable, fairly accurate, and the ammo is $3 or less for a box of 20. Since you said you wanted to spend some time practicing to become a decent shot, this may be relevant.

The SKS is, of course, a surplus semi-auto military weapon, and looks slightly more intimidating than a lever gun, although nothing like an AK-47 or M-16. This may or not matter to you, but fewer people find the old lever gun to be threatening. I have both and love them both, partially because they are cheap and dependable, and have a hard time imagining a likely circumstance where either would not be sufficient for the task.

You might just go to a gun store and check them out before making any decisions.

[Commissar Gribb]

any firearm that is built to kill is as threatening as the person holding it. I see a .44 mag lever as more threatening than a .223 mall ninja rifle.

So what if certain rifles "evoke images" of "bad guys". Just because you use a big sledge hammer doesnt mean you're posing for a communist propaghanda poster.

[roscoe]

I don't necessarily agree that a military-style rifle should be avoided because of looks, after all I have several. I am merely pointing out what may be a factor for some folks, especially those who are not as experienced with firearms and are looking around for honest advice.

[Marshall]

I don't see where Roscoe said to avoid them? I have to agree with his premise.

[brickboy240]

I have an early 99 Savage lever-gun in 243 that I use for just that purpose. Fast, easy to get into action and it only cost me about 325 dollars. All steel and will last forever.

-Brickboy240

[wdlsguy]

i was arrested but released the same day. i should be okay to have a legal gun then?

If you were never convicted of anything you should be fine.

[OldWolf]

This thread is interesting. It is a real life application of the ever popular forum question, "If I could have only one gun...".

No one has mentioned the new 17 caliber rimfires yet. Flat shooting and good out to 150 yards or more. The rounds are a lot cheaper than a 30-30 which is also a good choice, but the 30-30 is not as economical as a rimfire if you are planning to shoot for "fun" fairly often.

I've never been able to minimize my list to just "one". :rolleyes:

I'll always need "at least" three - a shotgun, a rimfire rifle and a centerfire rifle. :p

I'm looking forward to hearing what you end up with. :)

[TMM]

oldwolf: the .17HMR's fast and flat shooting, but what it lacks is momentum. i'd choose a .22 mag over the .17. and i'd choose a 7.62x39 over a .22mag. =)

~TMM

[Red Tornado]

No one has mentioned the new 17 caliber rimfires

I don't think a 17 gr. bullet is going to properly put down a German Shepard, unless it's a head shot, and that's not really an option according to the thread. Plus, aren't those .17s still pretty pricey?
RT

[dakotasin]

wolf- tmm and tornado pretty much sum up my experiences w/ the 17's... just too light to do serious work. the rimfires have a hard time cleanly taking coons, and have a dickens of a time w/ coyotes. have yet to try them on anything bigger because i have no confidence. some of the hot 17's (read: centerfires), like the 17 rem, 17 mk4 can handle coyotes pretty well, but still are not to be trusted on anything much over 40-45 pounds...

one gun to do it all, w/ the focus on defense of home against critters around the size of feral dogs, and to do it cheap: i stand by my original suggestion of an 8mm turk mauser. bolt guns are extremely tough, and very simple. nothing to screw up...

[TMM]

i concur. only thing is, with a boltie it is hard to get fast follow-up shots. that's why i like the SKS. cheap ammo, 10-round mag cap...

~TMM

[OldWolf]

Remember that the original post said that they couldn't spend too much money.

Kim - How much money are you willing to spend on the gun and how much per year, say, are you willing to spend on ammunition? Knowing this information will narrow the selection. Do you think you are going to shoot targets for recreation or just bring the rifle out when you need to protect your own animals? That will help determine your ammunition costs.

Rimfire 22LR will cost about 2-3 cents each. ($1 to 1.50 a box)

Rimfire 17 caliber is going for about 15 cents each ($7.50 a box)

Centerfire 30-30 will be about 50 to 60 cents each. ($10-$12 a box of 20)

Wolf .223 or 7.62x39 is about 10 cents around but not suitable for hunting.
Hunting grade ammunition in these two calibers will be close to the 30-30 costs.

A new Marlin or Savage bolt action rimfire in .22lr, 22Mag or .17 caliber will be anywhere from $100 to $200. A reasonably good scope will be about $50.

A used .22LR rifle, bolt or semi-auto will be roughly 60% to 70% the price of a new one.

A new centerfire bolt rifle will be $300 to $450, Remington, Savage, etc

A new Marlin or Winchester 30-30 will be $300 to $400, used, 50% to 70% of new.

These are ballpark prices, but you can see that when you narrow down the amount you are willing to spend for the gun and ammo, the selection will narrow too.

Good Luck.....

[wasrjoe]

Wolf .223 or 7.62x39 is about 10 cents around but not suitable for hunting.
Hunting grade ammunition in these two calibers will be close to the 30-30 costs.

Wolf has SP ammo. It is as cheap or very close to the price of their normal FMJ stuff.

[jobu07]

Wolf .223 or 7.62x39 is about 10 cents around but not suitable for hunting.
Hunting grade ammunition in these two calibers will be close to the 30-30 costs.

Wolf has SP ammo. It is as cheap or very close to the price of their normal FMJ stuff.

Exactly. Hunting quality .223 ammunition will set you back some. But hunting grade 7.62x39 isn't all that much more expensive than your average FMJ.

[Marshall]

Here's you some links to used Marlin 30-30's all 95% condition or above and all under $295.00. There's more, I just picked a few at random. You can check out Winchesters on the same site if you like.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976468737.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976459411.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976447765.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976427205.htm

[Tokugawa]

UMMM, just a minute folks- this guy live on a 1/4 acre!!! and you all are telling him to get a high powered rifle?! Some people (not us ,of course) occasionally MISS. Just how far do you want that round to go? A 1/2 acre lot is about 160 ' square. Just get a shotgun , #4 buck and have done with it. About a foot, foot and a half pattern at forty yards, and won't carry into the next county .

[Marshall]

Well heck, I never saw the follow up post by his friend. I thought we were talking a farm. If he wants to just shoot chickens a scare off dogs he needs nothing besides his shotgun.

Don't buy anything, you said your not a gun guy anyway. Stick to your shotgun and be done. If you want to shoot tin cans there are pellet guns that you don't have to worry about shooting a neighbor with. Pellets are cheap too.

[dakotasin]

whoops... i mis-read. i thought he said 1/4 section... yep, shotgun loaded w/ #4 buck is all ya need.