[Lone Star]

The June 20 issue of, "Gun Week" has a good story on the perennial .38 snub revolver vs. .380 auto issue. It's in both the print and the On-line editions. www.gunweek.com

(Click the "button" on the left for reading the current issue (This Week) and click then on the topic when the list shows.)

Enjoy! Pay close attention to what the writer cites (with his permission) Massad Ayoob saying about shooting pigs in a slaughterhouse. That is the most profound statement that I've seen re the difference in power between these types of guns.

Lone Star

[BigG]

My seat of the pants effectiveness meter has told me what Mas Ayoob's empirical tests have proven: The .380 just ain't got it. I've had two and both, a classic commercial Browning 1910 and a Walther PPK have been jettisoned from my inventory while I have an assortment of S&W j frames. JMTC YMMV Etc.

[scubie02]

i'm a sucker for 1911's and 38 snubbies

[kokapelli]

This is just me, but I have never been very accurate with a snubby and don't like carrying those large 38 cal cartridges.

On the other hand, I am very accurate with my Bersa and follow up shots are much faster with the single action Bersa trigger than with the long double action revolver trigger.

When it comes to carrying extra ammo, the 380 round is almost half the size of a 38 round and magazines are way thinner to carry than a speed loader and way, way faster to insert into the pistol than a speed loader.

My Bersa is thinner than a snubby and has 8 rounds in the magazine and and one in the snout (9 rounds). Most snubbies carry 5 and that's it.

Even my KelTec with it's seven round magazine and one in the snout holds 3 more rounds than the average snubbie.

[Marko Kloos]

This one's another case of starting with a conclusion and working the article to support it.

There are some advantages to a .380 auto over a .38 snub. You get more rounds, and they can be had in a flatter package than a five-shot snub. In addition, many .380s come with sights that are far superior to the J-frame integral sight track, and I personally find .380 automatics easier to shoot well than J-frame snubbies. The reloads are faster and carry easier, and the cartridge is far more size-efficient for roughly the same ballistic output. The .38 Special is derived all the way from blackpowder cartridges and had to be made longer than the cartridges that preceded it to prevent chambering in older guns, which has made the .38 Special case a lot longer than necessary.

In favor of the .38 Special are the heavier bullets, the better load selection, and the availability of +P and +P+ loads, which greatly improves the capabilities of the cartridge.

However, both the .38 and .380 make the same sized hole, and they are so close ballistically that I can only chuckle at the notion of one being a better steer-taker-downer than the other. Both are not ideal for anti-personnel work, but both are adequate, and there are plenty of neat and reliable designs available in both calibers.

Carry what works for you, and disregard what some gun writer dude has to say about the superiority of one or the inadequacy of the other. Both .380 and .38 Special have put a lot of people in the ground.

[enfield]

Oh, I see -- there's no difference between a 95 gr bullet traveling 800 fps and a 158 gr bullet traveling 800 fps. :scrutiny:

[BigG]

I was kinda wondering about that leap in logic myself, enfield. :uhoh:

[gbelleh]

The difference in power isn't really enough to worry about, IMO. Eight or nine shots of .380 is pretty comparable to 5 or 6 shots of .38.

The .380 can certainly do a lot of damage, as can the .38, but neither is the hammer of Thor.

[JohnKSa]

a 95 gr bullet traveling 800 fps and a 158 gr bullet traveling 800 fps.Where are you getting these numbers?

Here are some specs from a Federal Ammo Catalog.

.380ACP is a 95 gr bullet at 960fps--test bbl length 3.5".

.38spl is a 158gr bullet at 760fps--test bbl length 4" vented.
.38spl +P is a 158gr bullet at 890fps--test bbl length 4" vented.

To get down to real world snubby numbers, delete 30fps from the .38spl numbers for a 3" snubby or 60fps for a 2" snubby. The .380ACP barrel length is already in the ballpark for a carry gun.

So the numbers for a 2" snubby .38 vs a typical .380ACP are:

.380ACP 95gr@960fps
.38spl 158gr@700fps
.38spl+P 158gr@830fps

[Lone Star]

The points raised by Marko Kloos were addressed in the article.

So were real world velocities of the respective guns, which do not work out quite the way someone posted here. Read the article carefully before deciding that you know what it said.

In fact, some .380 loads actually chronograph well under 900 FPS, and the best snub .38's (especially three-inch versions) equal or surpass that with 125 grain loads, or the new Speer Gold Dot 135 grain. The .38 bullet is heavier, of course, adding to momentum and penetration.

On larger targets, the 158 grain .38 lead Plus P HP penetrates better than any .380 round that I've encountered.

The article pointed out that the .380 has pointing and burst fire advantages, and can be reloaded more quickly, with spare magazines.

But the acid test if a small gun has to be used on wild animals is reflected in Ayoob's slaughterhouse tests. I know of no comparable trials with such guns.

Lone Star

[MICHAEL T]

Carry the snub 38 and the 380 as BUG Their problem solved :D My self I carry my PPK/s more than my 38 snub I can shoot it better and a lot flater.

[Peter M. Eick]

Interesting. My little gov 380 gives me routinely 950 to 970 fps with an 88 grn JHP. It is very thin gun that litterally disappears in a shorts pocket. Now when I put the same loads in my 84f the velocity goes up to just over 1000 fps (I have a tight barrel). Now I have a gun that is no thicker then my Detective special and I have 14 shots with it. Grab an extra mag or two in a speed loader and I have 40 shots.

Now with my Detective special, I get 6 shots, and would have to carry 6 more speed loaders to get 40+ shots. Ain't going to happen.

I think it is a practical issue. When I am home in south, it is hot and humid. There are critters that need controling around the place so I carry and am licensed. Commonly I grab the 84F for walks around the neighborhood. 14 shots of 380 is plenty. Now there has been a few dog packs around so I have been grabbing a spare mag or two. I would not want to have to do a speed load with a DS with a pack of dogs around.

Is it the best solution? No, a 12 guage pump would be better. Is it a practical solution? Yes.

Final comment, a few years back Mas Ayoob wrote a long article stating that the 84f was the best possbile backup choice a person could make. 14 shots, reliable and compact.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38specialor380acp.htm

Best.

[wdlsguy]

Someone please show me a .38 as small and as flat as a Keltec P3AT. I carry mine in a rear pocket using a pocket holster from http://www.pocketholsters.com.

[Lone Star]

Stephen A. Camp-

Thank you, Sir. As ever, your wisdom impresses me.

You seem to have reached basically the same conclusion as did the, "Gun Week" article.

Although I consider the .38 revolver more powerful, more reliable, and more versatile, I do plan to buy a .380 when the budget allows, because it can sometimes be carried when a .38 might not conceal as well.

As the article notes, if one can, it's best to own both types of gun.

Lone Star

[enfield]

I own both and I carry at least the .38 (with +P 158gr LSWCHP) when I can, and at least the .380 when I can't carry the .38. I also carry only FMJ in the .380, to address the marginal penetration of HP's. My NAA Guardian .380 and my Smith 638 .38 are not equivalent -- each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes I carry both, and each is carried occasionally as a backup to a .40.