Trigger Locks - Good or bad?


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Yohan
March 19, 2003, 02:49 PM
What are some arguments for or against a proposal for installing trigger locks on all new guns? The ones I could think up of were as follows
=================
Trigger lock = Bad
1. Increase in gun prices (what would be the impact of this on the economy? Unemploment from gun companies maybe?)
2. No guarentee that people will keep using the trigger locks
3. They would get in the way when people really try to use them (when a BG enters the house- the TL may get in the way and delay time)
=================
Trigger lock = Good
1. Not a big problem
2. Safe?
=================
I need some more arguments, because I got into a big complicated argument during Debating class. Since it IS Debate, newspaper articles or legitimiate documents supporting your claim would also be greatly appericiated. So what do you guys think?

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Hkmp5sd
March 19, 2003, 02:57 PM
Gun safety is the responsibility of the gun owner, not some politician that just uses it as another step in the road to complete gun control.

And to assist in your debate:

The Dangers of Mandatory Gun Locks (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment032700a.html) by David Kopel.

bogie
March 19, 2003, 02:59 PM
IMHO, they provide an illusion of false security. If a person steals a firearm, removing the average trigger lock isn't a difficult task.

riverdog
March 19, 2003, 03:00 PM
Neutral. It's like a dead bolt on a door that you never lock. The door always opens just fine. I have one of the newer 629's and the keys to the integral lock have never left the plastic storage case.

Russ
March 19, 2003, 03:08 PM
When I lived in the PRK, they made it so all handguns had to come with a trigger lock. I bought one that didn't have one supplied by the manufacturer so the gun shop sold me one for $1.99. Never been on the gun. Now the laws out there are worse. I think the lock has to be approved by the commies who write, but do not obey, the laws. To me if you like them, use them. If not, they really don't cost that much and if a gun manufacterer is going to go out of business by supplying them, they have more severe problems than that.

Art Eatman
March 19, 2003, 03:54 PM
Speaking strictly about guns in the home: It's the owner's responsibility to guard against theft, and to prevent mishaps to children. A safe or some sort of locking device strikes me as a Good Thing.

Now, if anybody thinks I'm gonna have ALL my guns locked "at all times, except when use is imminent", they're a few fleas short of a hound dawg.

If you don't carry while out of the house, the drill seems simple enough to me: You come home, go unlock whatever home-defense go-bang blows your dress up, and have it available until you leave, the next morning. You merely secure it before departure. It gets to be part of the daily routine, like brushing teeth and suchlike...

:), Art

Standing Wolf
March 19, 2003, 03:58 PM
A locked gun is a useless gun.

samualt
March 19, 2003, 05:49 PM
Guns are magnets for children, dispondant adults, and theives. You should keep most of them locked-up. You simply don't need 14 guns unlocked and available!!!

I usually wear one, and have at least one other that is not locked for the responsible adults in the house.

It really depends on your household. What kind of children or flakey relatives live there? If you wouldn't feel comfortable handing one of those people a loaded gun then they should be locked away from them. It's that simple.

Redlg155
March 19, 2003, 06:01 PM
Gun locks are ineffective if they are not utilized. Do folks really thing that irresponsible people will be responsible enough to keep a trigger lock on their weapons? I think not.

Manufacturers such as HK and Taurus have a built in locking system on their weapons. That works no better than a trigger lock because again...folks who are unsafe just don't utilize them.

A responsible individial will do just fine without gun/trigger locks. We've been getting along fine without them for decades. If I have a gun loaded, then it is on my hip or secured in the safe. Easy enough.

Good Shooting
RED

Nathaniel Firethorn
March 19, 2003, 06:14 PM
I don't use them myself. If the gun is loaded, they're dangerous. Pushbutton safes are quicker to access, don't need keys, and, well, safer.

- pdmoderator

Mastrogiacomo
March 19, 2003, 09:09 PM
It really does depend on the house hold. My teacher's father used to own a revolver that he kept in his bedroom night table. The children were told to stay out of the room -- they did. No safe or gun lock according to her. Have times changed or what? I have gun locks but never them -- my guns are in a locked box. Why do I need to lock it twice with adults in the house?

Autolite
March 19, 2003, 09:20 PM
The key word being 'illusion'. As long as sheeple 'think' that a law or regulation is effective, then the goal is achieved. The 'illusion of security' is all that matters. Anti's can't/won't acknowledge reality ...

MikeK
March 19, 2003, 09:30 PM
The Maryland Gun safety legislation of 2000, which had the last phase kick in this year requiring built in locks, was originally designed for Law Enforcement. Since this type of technology is not real or practical, the LE was exempt immediately and us unwashed masses have to live with it.

If it ain't good for them, I guess it's just perfect for us!

I can't think of a better argument.

45-auto
March 20, 2003, 12:32 AM
Locking a gun up in a safe is one thing. That's sensible enough if you don't want it handy.

An integral lock of some kind on a gun. . .I wouldn't buy it unless there was no other choice. It's a useless complication.

A trigger lock? Totally worthless. If the gun is unloaded, cleared and properly stored it's superfluous. If the gun is loaded it's extremely hazardous and stupid. Potentially, it's fatally stupid.

My personal weapon is unlocked, loaded and within reach at least, but probably on my person. If it's not gonna be on my person, I secure it if I'm gonna have children or fools among the guests. I don't trust the little beggars or the big idiots with anything more dangerous than eating utensils.

Safety is a matter of competent gun handling. If you don't have that you're a danger to yourself and others, and mechanical devices won't help you.

twoblink
March 20, 2003, 04:55 AM
Maybe someone will dig up a link for you to read; where 3 kids (who were good shots) I think all died, from a man who came and stabbed them with a pitch-fork to death... They tried to call 911 but the phone line was cut; and the guns were locked via mandatory "for the children" laws.

That story made me throw away all the locks...

Ryder
March 20, 2003, 07:03 AM
My kid loves using the cable locks on his bikes. So I don't complain about the requirement. But the hazard really is a non-issue. I can not think of a single safety incident occurring among friends or family in my lifetime due to a loaded firearm in the home.

People around these parts grow up being educated to respect firearms. Now we respect ignorant fear mongers with a law.

Why not laws requiring locks on kitchen drawers? How many kids have access to sharp pointy kitchen knives? All of them! Criminals certainly steal kitchen knives to use in crime.

More laws to protect us! More, more, more!

M1911
March 20, 2003, 08:48 AM
Yohan: I think you need to be more clear in your question. A trigger lock is an external device that surrounds the trigger guard and prevents someone from reaching and pulling the trigger. This link shows a trigger lock (http://www.padlock.com.tw/gun.html). Trigger locks are not integrated with the gun.

Almost all new handguns sold in this country come with either a trigger lock or a cable lock. Neither can be used on a loaded gun. Neither prevent someone from stealing a gun. An improperly installed trigger lock can still allow someone to load and fire the gun. A cable lock is easily defeated with a pair of cable cutters (available at any Home Depot). I won't say that trigger locks or cable locks are useless. But they certainly aren't what I would recommend to safely store a gun.

From the wording of your question, I think you might have been asking not about trigger locks but rather about locks integrated into the gun itself. Several manufacturers make guns that have such locks. The HK USP now has a "lock" that disables the gun. The gun is locked or unlocked using a special "key" that is inserted into the magazine well. The "lock" prevents the slide from operating. Smith & Wesson revolvers now have a lock on the left side of the gun. The key is inserted through the side plate and turned to lock or unlock the gun.

These integral locks are only meant to be used when the gun is unloaded and stored. They are not suitable for use in an emergency -- that is, you would not carry the gun locked, then draw the gun and unlock it to use it.

In my view, they are relatively harmless. When you get the gun, unlock it, throw the key in the box and forget about it. Store the gun in your safe.

M1911

Art Eatman
March 20, 2003, 09:33 AM
When all this trigger-lock nonsense first cropped up, with the usual lies about "for the children", I sez, "Yeah, it'll work, alright, all the way up to when the kid gets to the Age of Hacksaw." For me, I'd figured out about hacksaws around age eight.

But I'd already been out in the pasture with a .22 rifle...

:D, Art

DMK
March 20, 2003, 09:55 AM
They are difficult to use effectively. Many times they may be installed improperly and allow the gun to still be fired.

They are inconvenient to use, encouraging folks to not use them.

They may create a false sense of security, causing folks to leave guns out in the open, poorly stored and/or loaded. This can result in theft and/or access by irresponsible children or adults.

Many of the locks I've seen are of poor quality and easily defeatable even in installed properly.

Gun safes and cabinets are a much better solution:

They store the firearm out of sight, limiting access and curiosity.

They can be slightly to much harder to defeat.

Possibly most important, they are much more convenient. It's very easy to just lay the gun in the safe and lock the door. This will encourage their use.

It is possible to safely secure loaded firearms in a cabinet/safe. This is not possible to do safely with a trigger lock.

Gun cabinets/safe's store multiple firearms which can make them cheaper in the long run.

They can allow quicker access to the firearms for authorized individuals.

Cabinets/safes have been a proven method to store firearms for decades: Visit any police station, security center or military installation. Which method do they use for securing firarms when not in use? Cabinet/safe or trigger locks?

Graystar
March 20, 2003, 09:59 AM
I'm against adding anything to complicate the design of a gun. Guns are highly stressed when fired, and all of a gun's components take a tremendous shock with every round. The last thing I need is some damn lock locking itself after firing one round, or just causing some other problem when I need the gun most (you just *know* that's when a problem will crop up!)

Guns are dangerous. That's the bottom line. You simply can't make them "safer" (whatever that means.) Little kids get around child-proof caps, phone locks, etc....what makes anyone thing that a trigger lock is going to stop them?

Yohan
March 20, 2003, 06:29 PM
M1911,
No, it's trigger locks. Interestingly enough, 99% of my Debate team has an anti-gun position- so naturally, my Debating coach wants the new debating topic to be the mandatory requirement of trigger locks (not internal ones) on all guns. I naturally stood up to the stupid resolution by saying all the reasons stated above, but he basically told me my argument would be useless without any "evidence." So, does anyone have any "Evidence" from news web-sites or books that support your arguments?

spacemanspiff
March 20, 2003, 06:42 PM
acquiesing to trigger locks will soon bring about laws that force us to keep our firearms not only safetied, trigger locked, but also unloaded, our loading devices wont be able to be stored in a loaded condition, and will be in a seperate storage safe and each round will be sealed in molded plastic.

can you imagine how much time you'd then need to address a threat?

"hold on, let me get my gun out of my safe.
okay, now the trigger lock...
okay, now wheres my key to unlock the gun components?
okay, magazine? other safe, dohh!
ammo? hang on bad guy, i'm almost ready!
jaws of life to extract each round from safety containers...
okay, i've got one bullet ready!"

i say we should develop a device that creates a forcefield around our guns and is deactivated by voice commands + retina scans + dna scans, oh wait, thats overkill, isnt it?

Art Eatman
March 20, 2003, 10:47 PM
"Evidence", Yohan? Interesting. I always thought that debates were decided upon the logic of one's argument.

And just where is this coach's "evidence" that trigger locks would solve problems?

Have him define "evidence". I am a retired professional engineer, and have over sixty years experience in shooting. My college education included courses in metallurgy. I am competent with a lathe and a milling machine, and am a reasonably competent welder. I was raised in the middle of the University of Texas Psychology Department (:)) and worked part time in my mother's mental-health clinic in Florida after I got out of the Army, with "talking shop" about problem-people part of the routine.

Would he or your other debaters care to match qualifications as to expertise with me? Guns? Locks and their security? The psychology of both adults and children?

That is, would my opinion count as "evidence"? If not, whose would?

:), Art

Yohan
March 20, 2003, 11:30 PM
Art,
I think I may print off this forum and use it as "evidence" :D :evil:

Blackhawk
March 20, 2003, 11:52 PM
Hkmp5sd nailed it early on.

10-Ring
March 21, 2003, 12:12 AM
I have a handfull of these things that I've never even opened. I guess in that sense it's a bad thing. I don't plan on having a handfull of handguns just sitting around w/ a lock though them. I have a safe for them now...much better security IMHO.
I've always felt safe w/ my son around my guns...it was his friends, my friend's kids & family member' kids I've had to worry about.

12.7x99mm
March 21, 2003, 12:44 AM
I use a safe for protecting and keeping safe the firearms that are not on my person

Waitone
March 21, 2003, 08:51 AM
The former governor of Maryland IIRC sponsored a law to require trigger locks. I think it was for exteral after-market types. Anyway the goober held a press conference so he could preen about his shiny new law. He was showing how easy it was to lock the trigger up and how easy it was to remove.

Weeelllll, in removing the lock he starts fumbling and can't get the key in the lock. It won't come off. It was a truly embarrasing moment in the history of "common sense gun control."

While I was watch the fiasco unfold I says to my self, "Self, what if. . . .Bang, bang, stab, stab, club, club, stanglwl, choke, burn, drown, rape, beat, gouge. All forms of violence could take place while the goober is putzing around with a lock and key."

Oh how sweet it would have been if someone at the conference started off.


We now return to our regular program schedule.

Ryder
March 23, 2003, 07:01 PM
You can get some statisitcal info here:

http://www.guntruths.com/Resource/facts_you_can_use.htm

It's not the most up to date but it certainly shows how many other violent crimes can be committed with something other than a firearm. Like I said, why no big push to lock up basball bats and kinves around the home? It is prejudicial to single out firearms for this kind of reaction. Are not almost 6000 deaths of any importance?

Quote:
Firearms vs. Other Weapons in 1998 (total numbers): Extrapolating these rates to the total number of murders in 1998 (as opposed to just the murders in which the type of weapon used was known), 10,977 of the total 16,914 murders apparently involved the use of firearms, and 5,937 involved other types of weapons.

Fact is the numbers have been in decline. But since but all accounts 99% of us aren't using locks I'd tend to want to attribute this to increased education (simple awareness of the hazard).

sm
March 23, 2003, 07:25 PM
BAD
Agree with HKmp5sd and Art...

Oh Art, hacksaw,...
Yuppie sheeple parents anti gun types,two of those cable type locks add two kids age 3 1/5 and 5, place lock on kitchen cabinets. Wait a bit, cogs in kids brains turning, well the younger girl went after a screwdriver took off cabinet handle and was in. The older wrestled with the diagnals, but after a bit and some grunting...walla. The eldest being a male , well a matter of principle, gotta use brute force or something.;)

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