Dont insullt the cowboys!


June 21, 2005, 01:54 PM
Sometimes I think we work against ourselves. Cowboys carried leverguns and single action sixguns because they were the best avalible at the time. Today we have much better technology avalible to us. I know variety is the spice of life but sometimes I feel that the only firearms we need are an AR10, Remington 1100, and a Berreta 92. with those guns we can harvest game and protect ourselves. Their all autos which they should be because we solved that problem a hundred years ago. We dont walk to work anymore nowdays we drive because we solved that problem too. I think we owe it to the past to stay in step with the present. Otherwise its gonna mess up the timeline. In 200 years when people look back to our generation its going to look jaded and confused considering we still produce and use everything ever made. We clearly have too much time on our hands. If we use the tool analogy with firearms we should use the best tools avalible and use them hard to get through this life with. Now I'm sort of kidding with this post I just though of this a few minutes ago and it seemed so clear at the time I had to write it down. But I do belive if Wyatt Earp came back today he would tell us to throw our beloved SAA's in the trash can and pick up the Glock 17 because its only a damn tool!

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June 21, 2005, 02:09 PM
make mine a FAL, 870, 1911 ;)

Brian Williams
June 21, 2005, 02:19 PM
OK I won't so I will use just about what they did
Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter in 45 colt
Marlin 1894C in 357
S&W 13 3" (originally designed 1899 towards the end of the era) in 357.

Solving the Auto problem did not happen 100 years ago, The original m-16 in 1956 was not a reliable auto, it might be today but...

J Miller
June 21, 2005, 02:21 PM
OK, I'll not insult the cowboys, or you guys. However you can keep your bottom feeding black plastic long and short jam-a-matics.
I can do anything I need, or want to do with my Win 94 and my Blackhawk.

Just because something is new, or more up to date, or more modern, doesn't mean it's better. Sometimes all it means is, it's different.


June 21, 2005, 02:22 PM
I don't know what prompted your post, but 'taint necessarily so. In Joe Kidd , Kidd acquires a Broomhandle Mauser, but such weaponry was rather exotic for the West. It was available (at least towards the end of the 19th Cent.), but logistical support would be hard to come by in the West.
As for why some people prefer lever actions and or SA revolvers for HD, SHTF or just plain plinking, well they just do. Levers and SA revolvers are utterly reliable, something that is not necessarily true for semi-autos. Most semi-autos can be made to function reliably with proper care, and some require less care than others, but all can jam, and Murphy says it will be at the worst possible moment. (That's why we constantlt drill for it, right? :uhoh: )
Then there is the familiarity issue. A person that practices and hunts with their Win. 94 is deadlier than one who buys an AR, takes it to the range once, then puts it in a closet.
"Mess up the timeline?" Someone's been reading too much SciFi. Are you suggesting that because some enjoy shooting anachronistic weapons that firearms technology will stagnate or reverse itself? :rolleyes: Highly unlikely.
I am amongst the guilty if it were so, because I own several swords, and have used them in re-enactment, as well as Civil War and Rendezvous era weapons, and a Winchester M94. I also collect Mosin Nagants and other WWI, WWII, and Cold War era weapons. Does this negate my military training with the M16, M60, M249, M1911A1, M9, etc.? Not. Would I use my M1860 Army for a SHTF sidearm? Probably not, but it would be able to arm someone who otherwise would be defenseless.
I suspect Wyatt Earp would (pardon the pun) stick to his guns, stay with the SA Colt he was familiar with, until some gunny took him to the range and showed him the advantages of [insert name of any current auto except the Glock. :neener: (JK: I don't mind Glocks. I just like stirring up controvery, like you. I'll step into my flame suit now. :p )]

June 21, 2005, 02:23 PM
My "plastic piece" doesn't jam...

But H&K's seldom do. :neener:

June 21, 2005, 02:33 PM
Just for that post, I may have to go ahead and buy that pattern 1853 .577 caliber Enfield rifle musket I was wavering over.

Actually, it's an Armi Sport replica of an 1853 Enfield.

But, it's a blackpowder, muzzleloading, percussion cap arm.


June 21, 2005, 02:35 PM
Go with the tried and true...

M-94 Winchester 30-30
Model 12 Winchester 12 gauge

All you need is right there.

June 21, 2005, 02:50 PM
Timothy75: I understand your point, but my preference is to move toward simpler things--thus I prefer revolvers, lever actions, and maybe a stock SKS. I just don't fancy weapons with removable magazines (1 caveat: I own an East German Makarov). I would imagine that Wyatt and his kind would be quite formidable with their single-action Colts and lever action Henrys/Winchesters.



50 Freak
June 21, 2005, 02:53 PM
I'll play:

Benelli M3
Glock 20
UltraMag50 :evil: (just in case)

And back in the day, it wasn't the weaponry that made a gunslinger great. It was the ability to keep a cool head under fire and drill your enemy with quick, consistantly well aimed shots. That made a great gunfighter. Not the spray and pray mentality we have now.

June 21, 2005, 02:55 PM
"We dont walk to work anymore nowdays"

Some of us do. And I've been thinking about moving farther away from the office...a 5-block walk just isn't long enough.


June 21, 2005, 03:01 PM
Anytime you feel like giving away your sixguns, just let me know. :D

June 21, 2005, 03:12 PM
Well, I think we produce and use much of the more primitive weapons out of a love of nostalgia for the past. And lots of folks enjoy the challenge, for example, of taking game with a bow & arrow, not because they are ignorant on modern weapons improvment. I'm sure that I'd enjoy blackpowder shooting, and have thought several times about buying an 1851 Navy Colt revolver replica.

Many of the problems solved (for example) driving instead of walking) by technology have come with a price attached. And I'm very glad that we still produce bicycles, instead of abondoning them completely for motorcycles.

When it comes to serious (life depends on it) applications, most use the best that they can (or want to) afford. And a modern revolver still has it pros (and cons) vs a modern auto-loader.

June 21, 2005, 03:13 PM
Well, I don't get out the cordless screwdriver every time a screw needs tightening. A hand screwdriver still works.

The three guns you mentioned would set me back at least $2300. Thats on a good day.

For roughly half of that I have:
Winchester 94 .30-30
Remingtom 870
Kimber 1911
Marlin Model 60

June 21, 2005, 03:27 PM
lever action is the best for 22lr plinking. the cartridge is too dirty for an auto, and lever is ergonomically better than bolt-action.

June 21, 2005, 03:31 PM
Technology isn't some monolethic beast that moves evenly forward. When cartridge guns were becoming common, there were still folks who prefered muzzleloaders. It wasn't a longing for the old days, they were better tools for those people. When you lived 15 miles from the closest store, and that store may or may not have cartridges for your gun on the day you showed up, it made sense to stick with a proven but "obsolete" tool. By the same token the buffalo hunters used expensive single shots instead of the available repeaters. The single shots were better for what they used them for.

Today many claim that revolvers are obsolete, but they have real advantages that make them better tools for some people. (like me :) )

Even when the new tools are admitedly better it doesn't mean the old tools serve no purpose. A 63 split window Corvette is truley obsolete from a modern perspective, but nobody throws them away ;)

R.H. Lee
June 21, 2005, 03:42 PM
I'm still tryin' to wrap my brain around Wyatt Earp packing a Glock. :scrutiny:

June 21, 2005, 03:49 PM
The last big innovations in small arms took place between 1887 and the First World War. Since then it's just been a matter of fine-tuning. Nobody has come up with anything half as efficient as smokeless powder, centerfire metallic cartridges. They're simple, durable, last an amazingly long time, remove heat and debris from the action, and they're cheap. The plastic "tactical" firearms may look a lot different from a Winchester '94, but on a more fundamental level they're nearly identical. This is why I many people still favor "archaic" firearms. They are essentially the same as the "high tech" ones, with fewer jaming problems and usually more powerful cartridges.

Brian Williams
June 21, 2005, 04:05 PM
I'm still tryin' to wrap my brain around Wyatt Earp packing a Glock.

He would not have a Glock he would have an 870Police and a 1911

Maybe he would have a Desert eagle with one of them 8" barrels

June 21, 2005, 04:08 PM
If it goes BANG and puts lead down range, it's all good in my book. :)

June 21, 2005, 05:08 PM
Saw a picture of a brand-new hum-vee with John Brownings' 50cal machine gun mounted on it. Still the best tool for that job. Probably still make them after we're gone.

June 21, 2005, 05:19 PM
I can see Mr. Earp packing a USP and an M-4. Doc Holliday on the other hand.....

Standing Wolf
June 21, 2005, 05:40 PM
In 200 years when people look back to our generation its going to look jaded and confused considering we still produce and use everything ever made.

The variety of firearms available on the open market is a sign of wealth, not confusion. May our descendants in another 200 years have ten times as much to choose from!

June 21, 2005, 06:05 PM
A big +1 Standing Wolf!

June 21, 2005, 06:18 PM
Yup. :) Using that logic, though, swords wouldn't've existed past 1600. Flintlocks past 1870. And today we'd all be using caseless ammo.

Make mine an M1A Scout with a walnut stock and a Trijicon Reflex, an Hk USP Expert in 9mm, and a Remington 11-87 in 20ga... with a walnut stock.

Can't really imagine seeing a USP, Steyr M, Glock, Kel-Tec, etc. with a wooden frame... maybe if it was English Oak :uhoh:

Dave R
June 21, 2005, 06:27 PM
Why wouldn't Wyatt Earp use a Glock? National Geographic tells me cowboys ride motorocycles these days....

Actually, I know some real cowboys. That is, my cousin runs a pretty big cattle ranch in Wyoming. (Although he's an architect during business hours...)

What's on his rifle rack? A Marlin .30-30. A Mini-14. And he has a S&W revolver in .357 mag.

Doesn't prove anything. He's not a real firearms-oriented guy.

June 21, 2005, 08:58 PM
M1A and a 1911 for me. Oh, and I shave with a straight razor too :D .


June 21, 2005, 09:27 PM
Win 30-30
1911A1 and a 357 3" mod 13
870 Rem.
You keep your plastic pistols and assualt rifles. I like wood and steel. To H--- with your time line Earp would be carrying a Colt 1911A1 because he would want the best and that ain't plastic. :neener:

June 21, 2005, 09:37 PM
I carry, plink with, shoot target with, and hunt with what I like. It can be semi-auto to single shot. What should anyone in the future care what I carried? So what if I sometimes use an older model revolver or lever gun? I do agree that many modern firearms are more advanced than older models, but older models have there places too - if just for fun or preference.

I cannot agree with anyone who calls a Beretta 92 a jam-a-matic. That is just silly prejudice in my opinion or, maybe it is based upon experience where shooter error caused the jams. I own a 92-SB and two 92F's. They are virtually jam free. In fact I have had more problems with S&W and Colt revolvers regarding malfunctions than I have with my Berettas or for that matter with my issue Glock (and I am no great fan of Glocks). I am amused by anyone who finds the Beretta to be a jam-a-matic.

I am kind of curious as to what you meant by this:my preference is to move toward simpler things--thus I prefer revolvers, lever actions, and maybe a stock SKS. Does this mean that a revolver is simpler in its mechanisms than are modern semiautomatic pistols or that a lever action is a simple mechanism? I don't think this is correct mechanically, but maybe by simpler you meant something else like nostalgic or maybe I am just wrong about which mechanisms are simpler.

All the best,
Glenn B

June 21, 2005, 09:42 PM
Only cowboy I know personally has a M19, a Model 700, and an 870.

I have no idea what to make of that.

June 21, 2005, 10:17 PM
Thanks everyone I appreciate all of your views. Like I said this idea just popped in my head for a second and I wanted to share it with you. A few more points. 1. We have abandoned root cellars, black and white TV's, and straight razors. 2. Nostalgia is wonderfull regarding hunting and plinking but self defense is much too serious of subject for it. 3. Everyone used to carry the Colt SAA because it was the best avalible and everyone agreed and was united on that and that gives them definition. Today's individuality makes us much less defined. Oh and by the way my favorite gun right now is a Thompson Center and I love my single actions, but for home defense I'm protected by Glock, Bushmaster, and not 1875.

June 21, 2005, 10:25 PM
I have seen the light!

No longer will I enjoy shooting my flintlock, or my percussion revolvers, or my lever guns, or my single-actions, or my mil-surps, or my....

Thanks for simplifying my life.

June 21, 2005, 11:53 PM
Doc would probably be carrying a Model 12 or a Mossberg with a tube longer than the barrel. :D


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