Ireland. PLEASE READ.


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sense
June 21, 2005, 05:13 PM
Hi, i found this site while looking up pictures so i could draw guns fro a sci-fi piece.

In ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned. We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one, so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done. we almost never hear about major robberies or homocide on the news, because if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught.

If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening.

or if somone is feeling a bit deppressed or angry (we all do occasionly) you are doing the worst thing possibe; arming them..

we dislike our govenment in ireland too, we watch then like hawks and tease every mistake, but thyre ususally just listening to the majority.

the movie bowling for colombine is one to watch, even if micheal does try and streach somt things to far. guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

if you have a gun then your attack will too, it just depends whose fastest, and hes the one with no moral consience. isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?

umm thats all.

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sense
June 21, 2005, 05:20 PM
no replys? come on people, prove me wrong..

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 05:25 PM
we almost never hear about major robberies or homocide on the news, because if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught.
As they say, you could fill volumes with what is NOT printed in the news.

lunaslide
June 21, 2005, 05:25 PM
Wow. You know, I've never heard any of those arguments before. I'm glad you graced us with your presence and dropped those words of wisdom into our ignorant little world here. I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say that it's such a brilliant and refreshing take on the subject you have brought to our attention. We will immediately disarm ourselves and fight to rid our country of guns.

I'll shoot you an email when we're done. Look for it in your inbox any time now...

TallPine
June 21, 2005, 05:26 PM
Let me get this straight: the IRA never had any guns ...?

:confused:

Cacique500
June 21, 2005, 05:27 PM
http://www.1911pistolgrips.com/img/miscwebpics/dnftt.jpeg

wasrjoe
June 21, 2005, 05:28 PM
WOW, ALL of thes arguments are so original and ground breaking! You know what, next you should go to a NASA website and talk about how the moon landings might have been faked. I bet they've never heard that either!!!

sense
June 21, 2005, 05:29 PM
Irish news pretty much tends to cover everything. theres only about 4 million people.

theyre new thoughts for me, i never have to worry about guns.

the ira's gun stash tended never to be very big, they went more in for petrol bombs, abd the ira was over norther ireland, not the republic, it was also squashed years ago.

sense
June 21, 2005, 05:30 PM
again. New. To. Me.


besides i doubt you here the irish side specifically very often.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 05:35 PM
If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one, so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done.

The "very hard to get" is very hard to do. Great Britain is an island and they still have a lot of illegal guns. Other countries with more easily traveled borders would have a harder time. The IRA certainly has no illegal weopons at all I am sure. :)

How do you know they have an illegal gun so you can arrest them with no harm done?
How do you know the same guy won't be back out on the street in a month?

Finally, if you have no guns, what is to stop several bad guys from breaking into you house, beating you up, and stealing whatever they can take? I am sure those elderly who have been beaten up over there would not have had a problem at all in a world without guns. After all, the police will be there in 5 or 10 minutes or more to take your statement and take you to the hospital.

A world without guns = Mob Rule. Who lead's the mob is the next question.

El Tejon
June 21, 2005, 05:36 PM
Only 4 million, that's because they all came here after being conquered by my ancestors. :D

IRA had enormous caches of weapons from USSR, DDR, and PRC, even stolen guns from USA.

You watch too many inane American movies.

Welcome to THR. :)

TallPine
June 21, 2005, 05:42 PM
Well, neither do you have grizzly bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes and other predators to contend with. We do, especially out here in the west - it's not a joke.

I suppose though, that you do still have game birds and shotguns in Ireland?

No offense, I think Ireland must be a lovely country, especially the rural portions. My ancestry is Scots-Irish, so I have a special feeling for Gaelic-Celtic culture. You all sure have suffered greatly through history at the hands of the English. Myself, I prefer a high-powered rifle to pikes and pitchforks ;)

El Tejon
June 21, 2005, 05:44 PM
Tall, the suffering was done with a higher purpose in mind--ours! :D

It's good to see some of our conquered subjects know their place and do not bear arms. I just may need to come back and straighten things out again. :cool:

Headless Thompson Gunner
June 21, 2005, 05:46 PM
no replys? come on people, prove me wrong..Prove you wrong, eh? Why should we bother? It's your life, you may live it however you please. If you feel happy and satisfied without access to weapons then what's the problem?


For what it's worth, I used to think the same things you do:
"The odds of me being attacked by a criminal are astronomically small."
"I'll never need a gun to defend myself."
"I'll be more likely to hurt myself or someone else by accident than to need a gun for defense."

Then I had an up-close and personal encounter with two criminals. They proved me wrong.

PromptCritical
June 21, 2005, 05:47 PM
Imagine a world without guns (http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml)

P95Carry
June 21, 2005, 05:52 PM
in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowledge that they too, would not be armed. You must be in a remarkably low crime area, tho that is in itself good news. Not I would guess a city situation tho.

So - ''they'' would not be armed eh? Well - even leaving guns out of the equation, knives are still very popular! ;)

Looks like it's summer vacation time folks! :)

El Tejon
June 21, 2005, 05:57 PM
"What about pointy sticks?" :D

sense
June 21, 2005, 05:58 PM
i was gone for a few muinitues, i hope i remmebr all your points..

the ira has been disbanded, so no, that have no wepons.

we are not conquered, hence the name 'the republic of irelnd, the irish went to america after a famine not a war..

im sure there would have been a lot more deaths then just a couple of beatings if there had been guns.

ill read over again and post again.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:01 PM
we have'nt got game birds and shotguns in ireland exept in very very rare cases.

i dont watch many american movies.

we are an island and there arnt many illegal guns.

knives are much easier to defend against then guns. and a person wielding a knife is al lot less likely to use it.

are justice sytem dosnt let people with guns back ont he streets inside a month.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 06:01 PM
Yes, a couple of big, strong guys with clubs can be just as deadly to someone without any training.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:02 PM
pitchforks was 200 years ago, and i live in the capital dublin. the highest crime area in ireland and thats the figure i gave you for it. there is crime, just not gun-crime.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:03 PM
we dont have gangs, so it probabaly woulnt be big strong guys. unless it was a dealer of some kind and then, you were bloody stupid to get involved in drugs in the 1st place and made then come round.

Mr. X
June 21, 2005, 06:03 PM
muinitues

Is this a Gaelic word? :D

The IRA has been confirmed, to the best of my knowledge, to not have destroyed more than a fraction of its arms, some several months ago, which was a major PR problem for Gerry Adams, et al.

Yes, you were conquered, many times in fact. The Vikings and at least twice by the English, whose policies lead directly to the emigration of the Potato Famine.

rock jock
June 21, 2005, 06:04 PM
sense,

Your country has been the focal point of domestic terrorism for years and you want to tell us why you don't need to be armed to defend yourself?

You might consider the fact that your little Emereld Isle is in the midst of an economic boom. When times turn tough, so do people.

Hang around and learn you will.

El Tejon
June 21, 2005, 06:04 PM
Most certainly you were conquered and disarmed. I am very happy that you are happy in your defencelessness. The famine was caused by the Corn Laws of your conquerors.

The IRA says they are disbanded. All kinds of guns were hidden across the RoI during the ToT. No way the communists handed them all in. Despite all kinds of gun laws, the IRA existed for decades.

How can one speculate that the presence firearms would cause more deaths? That is not borne out by criminal stats here, i.e. murders are higher in places were guns are banned.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:04 PM
im young and im trying to type fast. please dont make fun of my typing skills, it proves nothing.

R.H. Lee
June 21, 2005, 06:07 PM
You have probably never been to the United States, and are under some illusion that the entire country resembles the wild west of the late 1800’s, with everyone packing and shootouts in the streets at high noon.

The truth is that the vast majority of American gunowners are peaceable, lawful citizens. Private ownership of firearms is our heritage and our right, ever since throwing off the shackles of King George III, and sending the redcoats of his army back to England, retreating in defeat. Our right to keep and bear arms is not subject to negotiation. We are free men who believe in self governance, not ‘subjects’ of some monarch.

We keep arms not only as a deterrence to a tyrannical government, but as a means of self defense against would be predators who would rob, maim, or kill us. Firearms are used in self defense against criminals many times every day, much of it completely unreported, because nothing ‘reportable’ happened. The would-be victim was armed, and the criminal fled. Sometimes it is necessary to shoot the criminal; this also happens every day, and each time, there is one less victim. That’s a good thing.

You also have criminals in your country. They don’t need a firearm to break into a house, terrorize, beat, and sometimes kill the occupants. So without firearms, you are all potential victims, with no effective means to defend yourselves. Ask yourself this: If a 6’ 250 lb thief broke into your grandparents home in the middle of the night, what would keep him from killing them? A phone call? Without a firearm, you are at the mercy of anyone who wishes to do you harm.

You cannot disinvent the firearm. The technology exists and it can be used for good or evil. Fixation on an implement as the cause of crime when that same implement is also used to deter crime is reading only half the equation. I suppose you feel superior or somehow more enlightenend than we coarse Americans. Get back to me when the crime rate in Ireland is zero.

Headless Thompson Gunner
June 21, 2005, 06:08 PM
we are an island and there arnt many illegal guns. ha!

knives are much easier to defend against then guns. and a person wielding a knife is al lot less likely to use it.HA!!

Now that's just plain silly.

Look, pal, if you're happy in a pace without any guns then I'm happy for you. So why do you insist on stirring up arguments with other people in other countries who disagree with you?

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:08 PM
northern ireland was the focus, not the republic.
the ira did disband.

we won against england without guns.


and um.. i had to mention a new point, terrorism and communism are not the same. the idea of communism is quite noble, they just havnt found many good leaders yet. jus thought id point it out, gun enthusiasts seem to really hate the whole communist thing.

the economic boom is drawing to a close due to inflation rates. thats just capatilism for you..

richyoung
June 21, 2005, 06:10 PM
In ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned.

In the US, we are still free - more or less...

We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

Explain to me how someone who is ALREADY PLANNING TO BREAK THE LAW is going to refrain from aquiring a black market gun...because its against the law? What are YOU going to do when you are old, sick, injured, recovering from surgery, a child, or a woman, and the burglar doesn't NEED a gun - he can just man-handle you?

If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one,

That has worked SO WELL with prostitution, alcohol, drugs, switchblade knives...NOT!

so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done.

You honestly assert that ALL bad guys in the Republic of Ireland are arrested BEFORE they break the law? That your crime rate is ZERO? What - do you have Mistress Cleo on your police force?

we almost never hear about major robberies or homocide on the news, because if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught.

A knife, (or club, or fist) can kill you just as dead as a bullet.

If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening.

The accidental death rate for children from firearms is small and has been going down for twenty years. Bicycles, pools, and five gallon buckets present a greater threat to American children than guns. Statistics that at first glance seem to indicate otherwise are slanted by including 16, and 17 year-old gang-bangers shooting each other up as "children" whose death is "firearms related", a sophistry I'm sure you wouldn't want to be fooled by.

or if somone is feeling a bit deppressed or angry (we all do occasionly) you are doing the worst thing possibe; arming them..

Police and soldiers get depressed and angry all the time, yet are trusted with weapons. If you have so little self-control that you can't be trusted with a firearm, you shouldn't have an automobile, kitchen knive, straight razor, or Drano, either. You should be put away.

we dislike our govenment in ireland too, we watch then like hawks and tease every mistake, but thyre ususally just listening to the majority.

So what can you do if they STOP listening? Over here, we can do something!

the movie bowling for colombine is one to watch, even if micheal does try and streach somt things to far. guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

That's simply not true. Guns are used for protection over 2 million times a year in this country, usually without a shot ever being fired. Why do you think police and security guards have them?

if you have a gun then your attack will too, it just depends whose fastest, and hes the one with no moral consience.

If someone is attacking me or my family, I no longer have am obligation moral or otherwise to the attacker - even the animals in the fields have horns, teeth and claws - everyone, and everything has the right to try to defend themselves. Plus you conveniently ignore the case where the attacker has a gun ANYWAY, and I don't -

isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?

Where I live, there are some COUNTIES that would rival your ENTIRE COUNTRY in size - sometimes with only 2 to 4 officers to patrol thousands of square miles. Even in the cities it can take 20 minutes to an hour for the police to arrive - by the time they get there, that "fresh hole" won't be so fresh. I have a bad knee - I'm not going to out-run most bad guys, nor should I have to! Few crooks will stand there and let you make a cell phone call, either - they usually TAKE the phone!

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:13 PM
i am not your 'pal' i am mearly tryng to find out others viewpoints. to Learn.
You have probably never been to the United States, and are under some illusion that the entire country resembles the wild west of the late 1800’s, with everyone packing and shootouts in the streets at high noon.

i ahve been to the usa, i dont think that at all. 600lbs thieves are unlikely to try and kill my grandmother, that wouldnt make sense.

the whole world is not trying to kill you. you just need to see outside the box a little. its why im here. if i undestand your mind then theres no fear of you.

americans span a lot of space. only some of you are corse..

secamp32
June 21, 2005, 06:13 PM
Where did you get that ? Purina Troll Chow! Thats great!

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:14 PM
i ahve nothing against americans

my second favorite artist is american ^^ jhonen vasquez.

in fact your best export is probabaly geeks and geek ideas.

A Cleaner
June 21, 2005, 06:14 PM
sense,

Ironic that you chose that name. :what:

I'm curious as to why you decided to land right in the middle of a pro-gun forum to share your anti-gun sentiment. I get the whole "Go where the message needs to be heard" thing but coming here to tell us we'd be better off without guns?

Your report card is as follows:

A for effort
A+ for courage
F for planning
F for selecting the appropriate audience for your appeal
F for common sense and logic

While we welcome many different people and many different opinions here, I think you chose to share the most opposable opinion possible.

El Tejon
June 21, 2005, 06:15 PM
The IRA commited murder, kidnapping, arson and bombing in the name of building a communistic paradise. Terrorism is just a tool for communism.

Noble? Communism noble? Tell the ghosts of the concentration camps in the USSR, China, Southeast Asia. The murder victims of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho, inter alia, etc.

Or, you can tell the many people here at THR that fled communism. They know the motivation of communists and all those that espouse "gun control"; it is people control, just as Lenin said.

richyoung
June 21, 2005, 06:16 PM
and um.. i had to mention a new point, terrorism and communism are not the same. the idea of communism is quite noble, they just havnt found many good leaders yet. jus thought id point it out, gun enthusiasts seem to really hate the whole communist thing.

Never has been a Communist regime that DIDN'T involve terror. Your "noble" philosophy has resulted in the deliberate deaths of over 100 million people - EVERY Commie leader, from Lenin to Mao to Castro to Pol Pot to Ho Chi Mihn has had to resort to the deliberate starvation/expulsion/extermination of their opponents, often fellow communists. Worse than Hitler - the single greatest source of death, slavery, and misery on the planet. Or didn't you know that?

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:23 PM
we are free.

i didnt say because i was against the law, thyre very difficult to get hold of.

drink isnt illegal, we have very, very little prostition

i ment it would be more likely.

but are less likely to

we have no 5 gallon buckets ore pools. and without guns thred be even LESS death. isnt that nice?

our police dont have guns. what is drano?

i dotn think itls likely our govenment will suddenly all simultanously turn into maniacs. perhaps if your presiden wasnt so 'all powerful'.. you chose the system, you can change it.

again our police dotn ahve guns.

i already made that case :/ we are not animals anyway.

if they have no gun, you could probabaly outwit them/ovepower them/run from them/ do almost anything more so then if they do..



that was a long post but i countered ever point ^^

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:25 PM
fidel castro's cuba is doing fine.

there might have been hope for ho chi mihn's system if you hasnt go involved.

but is not what im here to talk about, it was minor point.

I'm curious as to why you decided to land right in the middle of a pro-gun forum to share your anti-gun sentiment. I get the whole "Go where the message needs to be heard" thing but coming here to tell us we'd be better off without guns?

i saw this board and i had to make the point... i dont plan it..

cuchulainn
June 21, 2005, 06:27 PM
El Tejon,

Yes, but we have better songs ;).

====

Actually, the IRA in Northern Ireland is a good demonstration of the futility of gun control. In a tiny geographical area, bounded on two sides by ocean, under martial law (effectively), with random check points and other steps that make the Patriot Act look downright friendly -- I mean we're talking East Berlin circa 1961 -- and yet the IRA had all the guns it ever wanted.

That the violence was as relatively low had nothing to do with the availability of guns, but with the internal discipline of the IRA.

Incidentally, the IRA had its own gunsmiths. It's still unclear if the .50s used in a spate of assassinations a few years ago were Barretts or knockoffs made by the IRA gunsmiths (likely both). I've wondered for awhile where those fellows are selling their wares now that the IRA has allegedly disbanded. Perhaps they've converted their shops into making cute little metal doohickies for the tourists or ergonomic chairs for the IT guys driving the Celtic Tiger.

Up The Banner! Clare Rules!

auschip
June 21, 2005, 06:27 PM
Assaults per 100k people in Ireland - 249.
( http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ei/Crime&b_define=1 )

Assaults per 100k people in the US - 334.
( http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm )

Burgleries per 100K in Ireland - 580
Burgleries per 100K US - 770

So when does the much safer part start?

Edited to add:

Sense said:
fidel castro's cuba is doing fine.

Yes, that is why thousands every year risk using homemade boats crossing the Gulf of Mexico so that they can escape his regime and live in the US. It is a veritable paradise. :rolleyes:

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:31 PM
200 people per 100k is a lot.

the ira was disbanded. we beat them without guns. there is that key..

Colt46
June 21, 2005, 06:31 PM
because societies that revolve around the state as the most important aspect of society tend to fear free thinking citizens that bear arms and have the courage and arms to question it. Communists have a bad habit of disarming the people and then shipping them off to Gulags or just executing them.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:32 PM
doubt thats true, my friend was there. he said i was very cool. you just ahve to stop for hitchhikers more. we are thinking of going next year.

fjolnirsson
June 21, 2005, 06:32 PM
Off topic, but I wanted clarification on a point.

we have no 5 gallon buckets ore pools

In the entire country? That's odd. What do people carry water and paint in?

R.H. Lee
June 21, 2005, 06:33 PM
Well, you continue your little experiment and we'll continue ours. Good luck to you. :)

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:33 PM
you exicute your criminals.. 'free thinking people who bear arms and question society' and dont use the guns are fine im sure, if they do then thats 'crime'?

cuchulainn
June 21, 2005, 06:34 PM
we won against england without guns. Are you joking! Are you seriously suggesting that Michael Collins' little war in 1920-21 involved no guns?

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:34 PM
two ltr buckets?

*we do have pools but they are indoors, public and carefull monitored

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:36 PM
when we WON it was without guns. minor scuffules and a lot of brain.

dolanp
June 21, 2005, 06:37 PM
Judging by the fact that you would even mention tripe like Bowling for Columbine indicates that you are high on the media kool aid about the US.

Come visit sometime and maybe you will be able to think for yourself instead of being such a good little government subject. And if you do come, remember: The places that have the most restrictions on guns are the most dangerous places to be.

cuchulainn
June 21, 2005, 06:37 PM
the ira was disbanded. we beat them without guns. You didn't beat them. The English wore them down ... with lots and lots of guns, armored cars, helicopters and other nasty tools.

auschip
June 21, 2005, 06:37 PM
200 people per 100k is a lot.

the ira was disbanded. we beat them without guns. there is that key.

200 people per 100k is .2% which is not statistically significant. I thought Euros where supposed to be better at math then those in the US.

You beat the IRA without guns? What were those things UK troops were carrying with them on patrols in Northern Ireland? Here's a hint, they weren't golf clubs.

I committed the cardinal sin, feeding the troll statistics. :neener:

SLCDave
June 21, 2005, 06:38 PM
We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

Irish news pretty much tends to cover everything. theres only about 4 million people.

So only 24 of you have to worry? Why do I doubt your statistics?

You neglect one nagging truth in your ideal scenario: Criminals have no interest in obeying the law. That is what makes them a criminal in the first place.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:39 PM
i saw bowling for colombine and i said i made some good points. i wouldnt exactly call it a 'hot movie' its been out for years. i saw it becasue i reminded me of what cinema was like in the old days when whole familys went to watch new posts.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:43 PM
200 lives saved a year, it wasnt maths was talking about.

i dont understand SLCDave's point. 24? and i already talked at lengh about why they dont ahve guns. its the truth not an ideal senario..

nico
June 21, 2005, 06:43 PM
i dotn think itls likely our govenment will suddenly all simultanously turn into maniacs.

I'm sure that's what the Germans were thinking when they elected Hitler :rolleyes:

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:44 PM
i have to go to bed soon, so ill counter any points that appear until i find a gap then im leaving. not running :/

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 06:44 PM
that was a long post but i countered ever point ^^

No, you didn't. You just keep repeating the same bad logic.

dolanp
June 21, 2005, 06:46 PM
One other thing that is important to understand when talking about the US is that the states have some level of sovereignty (Raich aside!) and are in fact quite different from each other. What's popular in New York City does not need to be applied to rural Texas, for example, because we can behave ourselves. Comparing Ireland to the US is about as useful as comparing Belgium to South America.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:46 PM
a single person should never be given so much power. i think you guys are finding that out..? i mean you do regularly people of protecting yourselves against your own government..

jefnvk
June 21, 2005, 06:46 PM
In ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned. We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one, so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done. we almost never hear about major robberies or homocide on the news, because if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught.

If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening.

or if somone is feeling a bit deppressed or angry (we all do occasionly) you are doing the worst thing possibe; arming them..

we dislike our govenment in ireland too, we watch then like hawks and tease every mistake, but thyre ususally just listening to the majority.

the movie bowling for colombine is one to watch, even if micheal does try and streach somt things to far. guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

if you have a gun then your attack will too, it just depends whose fastest, and hes the one with no moral consience. isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?

I'm not afraid to walk the streets unarmed. But, I am also not afraid to drive without a seatbelt. However, the seatbelt is there in case I need it, as will a weapon when I am deemed old enough to carry one. I don't feel I need it, but it is better to have it and not need, than to need it and not have it.

I hardly hear of murder on the news where I live. In fact, the last time there was a murder in the county, in the past bunch of times, it was with a knife. I never recall a gun used in a murder in the county. And we aren't exactly anti-gun around here.

Parents have the responsibility to keep their kids safe. Contrary to popular belief, kids should not be allowed to run around unsupervised. If a parent is a gun owner, they should be supervising their kid, and have the guns secured so that they are inaccessible to the kids. And stupid parents should not prevent me from owning guns, especially since I am not a parent.

If someone is feeling depressed or angry, there are plenty of other ways for them to kill themselves. Rope, water and butter knives all come to mind.

I do believe that the statistics show that there are about 30,000 deaths from guns a year, half from suicides, and many hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns, and that is the number that anti-gun groups will quote. Pro gun groups put the number at a million or more.

Just because I have a gun, does not mean my attacker will. And whoever is smarter will win the encounter. And contrary to belief, my gun will not just be taken away from me. I'll let you try and grab the end of my barrel while my finger is on the trigger.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? You sound like someone who is in middle school (about the ages of 12-15 or so in America).

Guess what? I am 19. I got 20 or so guns, including my three handguns, and bunch of 'assualt' weapons, depending on whsoe definition you use. They have never threatened or shot anyone. They are no more dangerous than the har =d drive sitting on my desk by themselves. Guns are not the problem. There was murder before guns, and if all guns disappeared tomorrow, there would still be murder. People are the problem.

akluvr
June 21, 2005, 06:47 PM
Can someone close this thread before I have a stroke?

cuchulainn
June 21, 2005, 06:47 PM
when we WON it was without guns. minor scuffules and a lot of brain. The fighting war -- with lots of guns -- drove the English to the negotiation table where, incidentally, the Irish walked away with less than what they came to the table wanting, so much for brain power. No, there were not pitched battles (at least the Irish were too smart for that). But the notion that Irish independence was won without guns is simply historically wrong.

auschip
June 21, 2005, 06:49 PM
200 lives saved a year, it wasnt maths was talking about.

That is assaults committed per 100,000 people, not people killed. Apparently you weren't talking about English or Math. :evil:

nico
June 21, 2005, 06:49 PM
I do believe that the statistics show that there are about 30,000 deaths from guns a year, half from suicides, and many hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns, and that is the number that anti-gun groups will quote.
and history (Australia) shows that removing guns doesn't affect the overall suicide rate.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:51 PM
im pretty young.. what does sovereignty (Raich aside!) mean?

your under the same govenment unlike belguim and south america, plus south america is a continant not a country and most of it is third world. ireland and amrica arnt that dissimmilar. your just bigger. its why you tend to be seen as most the rest odf the world as a bit of a bully. i mean.. vietnam.. iraq..

you took things a bit far..

i dont blame the individuals. i blame your education system..

ZenMasterJG
June 21, 2005, 06:52 PM
jefnvk excellent post.
i woulndt bother trying to reason with this kid though
:banghead:
plus its almost 11:00pm in ireland, obviously past his bedtime. :evil:

secamp32
June 21, 2005, 06:55 PM
I would guess from your post that you are young, probably a middle or high school student? When you are young, life's problems seem so simple to solve. Just a new law here, a little tax there and everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately, as we get older and more experienced we see that life is more complicated. Enjoy the simplemindedness of young. Once its gone it never returns.

sense
June 21, 2005, 06:57 PM
bwa, i should ahvegone already im tired. 19 sounds to me so icredably unsafe having guns around. my god i just sounds so dangerous. its much easier to kill with guns. so much easier that you can do it by accident. at least with a knife you'd have to be really really damn serious.

we came away with less then we asked for but more then we might have gotten. we did well and it can't be denyed. ill check this thred in the morning to see if there arnt any REALLY stupid arguments.

if i give my age you will belive my opinions are worth nothing. ageism is such a terrible thing..

dolanp
June 21, 2005, 07:00 PM
And you're saying you blame OUR education system for making US ignorant? Right....

I don't like public education here very much but it sounds like you poor Irish are really screwed.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 21, 2005, 07:00 PM
Greetings.

I don't care to put my dog in this fight, as my ancestors dumped that part of the world for obvious reasons to come 'over here' in 1624. I will, however, share some observations from a couple of Gentlemen I respect and appreciate, as such, to wit:


"Freedom is not empowerment. Empowerment is what the Serbs have in Bosnia. Anybody can grab a gun and be empowered. It's not entitlement. An entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights—the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery—hay and a barn for human cattle. There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."

-P.J. O'Rourke

"America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." ~~ James Madison, The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244


Regards,
Rabbit.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 07:00 PM
Yes, typical BS. Don't provide any of your own proof, just make claims, then try to shoot down all the counter-arguments, then claim you won and are right.

I note "sense" has no experience with firearms, no experience in an armed society, yet seems to assume that Ireland is superior. I just gotta laugh at that.

Didn't he say there are no gangs in Ireland? That is because for years they only had ONE gang. It was called the IRA. Give it time.

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:02 PM
I would guess from your post that you are young, probably a middle or high school student? When you are young, life's problems seem so simple to solve. Just a new law here, a little tax there and everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately, as we get older and more experienced we see that life is more complicated. Enjoy the simplemindedness of young. Once its gone it never returns.

there you go, i post one thing to let me sleep and 5 seconds later there it is. ageism.

i do not think i could solve the worlds problems, im just trying to let everyone see everyone point of view. i do it all the time, got to see the world from all perspectives. i NEVER think 'just passing this or taxing that' would solve ANYTHING. that is not in human nature. i mean look right now the proof, both sides presenting the case and still problems. of course there is. the law wouldnt chang a thing, you ahve to change the perspective.
dont be agist, dotn be racist, dont be homophobic, dont be sexist and from your view everyone is your equal if their a begger on a street or a foregn minister. after all, perspective is all we REALLY have.

eagle45
June 21, 2005, 07:04 PM
Wasn't there a little boy from France that posted the same sentiments recently? :neener:

I have only one comment:

SPELLCHECKER :D

Sean Smith
June 21, 2005, 07:05 PM
Quoting myself from elsewhere:

Gun control really is a perfect target for their show. It is totally irrational. It is, in fact, practically a mental illness.

The pretext is that gun control protects the public. But Washington, DC has some of the strictest gun control in the country, and is the murder capital of the country on a regular basis. Dallas has one of the worst murder rates in a city in a CCW-friendly state, because the city is run by a bunch of slack-jawed retards, and it is still a small fraction of that of DC or Detroit.

Gun control simply does not stand up to rational examination. It doesn't accomplish anything it is claimed to accomplish. You can leave "rights" completely out of the discussion, and gun control still flunks on all fronts.

Funny thing is, the UK doesn't have dramatically lower crime rates, to include violent crime rates, than the US does. They haven't for quite a while. Some violent crimes are more likely in the US, some in the UK. The Economist (pro-stringent gun control, last I checked) published a crime study a few years back done by a European university that showed that victimization rates were often higher in the UK than in the US. In many categories the US wasn't even in the top 10 when you included other European countries.

The special awfulness of US crime is simply mythical. People watch Dirty Harry and Lethal Weapon, and think that's reality, then talk down to people from crime-saturated America. :rolleyes:

Our places with UK-level gun control have the highest violent crime, by far. For instance: New York City, Washington DC. And the gang-bangers aren't all driving to Vermont (crime rate: nil) to get illicit guns, since the Swamp Yankees up there would just kill them.

I wouldn't be surprised if our WORST crime areas were worse than their counterparts in the UK, but unless you plan on going on a cruse in Crack Whore Central in Detroit, that's not terribly meaningful to 99% of US residents, let alone tourists.

None of which is to say that we don't have crime problems, of course we do. But so does almost everybody else.

Notes:

"CCW-friendly" = it is easy to get a permit to lawfully carry a concealed firearm in that locality.
Vermont has essentially no state-level gun control at all (and almost no crime).
"Swamp yankee" is slang for a rural New Englander.
"Gang banger" is a reference to criminal gang members, not group sex :D


Another factor to consider is that most of the United States is still barely-inhabited wilderness, a fact that is simply not grasped by millions of people, including many Americans. Many people in this country live in rather remote areas. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is not possible for someone who hasn't driven across this country to have any concept of its size or its physical emptiness. Counting on the police to protect you, be it from a burglar or a bear, is simply a fantasy in vast areas of this country.

But you know better than us, because you've seen our action movies. :rolleyes:

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:05 PM
i agree with most of the rights thing, but you took a diffrent side with the same evidance.

governments are afraid to trust the people with arms

thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

i never said ireland was superior.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 07:07 PM
They assumed you were young because the "perspective" of your posts reflect a short-sighted and naive view of the world. You can complain about "ageism" all you want, but you are only advertising your own foolishness.

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:08 PM
i didnt say you shouldnt have a gun in a remote are to protect against bears, that i ahve no problen with.

i already talked about how I DONT WATCH AMERICAN ACTION MOVIES, but you didnt read that..

i also commented on this:

i am young and i am trying to type fast, making fun of my typing or spelling proves nothing.

Solo
June 21, 2005, 07:09 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.
Ghandi says that the people are good and can be trusted. Please tell me why Ghandi got it wrong, and you got it right.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 07:10 PM
Complaining about things that prove nothing proves nothing!!! :D :neener:

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:10 PM
They assumed you were young because the "perspective" of your posts reflect a short-sighted and naive view of the world. You can complain about "ageism" all you want, but you are only advertising your own foolishness.

you know it is neither short sighter or naive, its just not your perspective. you do not know me, and i dont not know you, for all we know about each other, i may have seen, heard and thought a lot more then some of you in my short life.

Solo
June 21, 2005, 07:11 PM
you know it is neither short sighter or naive, its just not your perspective. you do not know me, and i dont not know you, for all we know about each other, i may have seen, heard and thought a lot more then some of you in my short life.

Unlikely.

odysseus
June 21, 2005, 07:11 PM
Sense...

You are a joker, and a troll. Sorry I will try to keep this on the High Road. If you are who you say you are, please go back to reading and live life - you need to learn some things. Sorry to have to sound like a jerk there.

People - your are feeding into this game he is in play. If you read his stuff it's hilariously funny, and mind you - very wrong.

Anyway - thanks for the laughs Sense. I have recorded some of your greatest epitaphs of reason and beliefs... which mind you are false:

the ira has been disbanded, so no, that have no wepons.

we dont have gangs

If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one

guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

we are an island and there arnt many illegal guns

knives are much easier to defend against then guns. and a person wielding a knife is al lot less likely to use it.

the idea of communism is quite noble, they just havnt found many good leaders yet.

the economic boom is drawing to a close due to inflation rates. thats just capatilism for you..

you just need to see outside the box a little. its why im here

our police dont have guns. what is drano?

there might have been hope for ho chi mihn's system if you hasnt go involved

i saw bowling for colombine and i said i made some good points. i wouldnt exactly call it a 'hot movie' its been out for years. i saw it becasue i reminded me of what cinema was like in the old days when whole familys went to watch new posts.

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:12 PM
because if people could eb trusted we wouldnt have problems? ill proabbaly ahve to put a footnote here*


*problems which are related to people.

so dont argue about.. i dunno volcanos or somthing.

and hopefully goodnight(i still ahve found a few second space to get away)

sense
June 21, 2005, 07:13 PM
um, im a she.

Unlikely.

but possible.

cuchulainn
June 21, 2005, 07:13 PM
we came away with less then we asked for but more then we might have gotten. we did well and it can't be denyed. Yes, Michael Collins did well. He did what others couldn't do for nearly 1,000 years. But stop saying that he did it without guns. That's historically wrong.

Larry Ashcraft
June 21, 2005, 07:13 PM
the idea of communism is quite noble, they just havnt found many good leaders yet.
Wrong.

The concept is flawed, but at your young age you just don't understand why.

nico
June 21, 2005, 07:14 PM
ill check this thred in the morning to see if there arnt any REALLY stupid arguments.
if you don't want any stupid posts, just skip the ones written by some 12 year old who calls himself "sense."

I have only one comment:

SPELLCHECKER
lol a spellchecker wouldn't even recognize most of that.

:: pokes troll :: hey, this is fun :D

Solo
June 21, 2005, 07:16 PM
because if people could eb trusted we wouldnt have problems?
Can you be trusted?

ZenMasterJG
June 21, 2005, 07:18 PM
Unlikely.
but possible

Not really.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 07:19 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

There is the key difference in philosophy. I believe that I can be trusted. My gun ownership has hurt no one, and has helped some economically. I believe that my family can be trusted. That guy next door, he has never done anything wrong; he deserves to be trusted as well. And so on for all Americans. Unless they commit a crime or other to show that they cannot be trusted, why would you (the all knowing King Sense) want to take away their freedom? Are you afraid of them or me? Why? I subscribe to strict gun safety so there is no chance of an accident. My guns won't hurt you unless you try to commit a crime against me. You won't do that since you are a law abiding citizen as well, right?

I believe that I should have the freedom to do what I want as long as I do not screw with someone else's freedom. So don't screw with mine. :)

BuddyOne
June 21, 2005, 07:20 PM
The ownership of a firearm is not what makes a U.S. citizen different to a European. The troll here today really doesn't care about the ownership of a piece of blued steel hardware. What really burns in his gut is the fact that our RIGHT AS A HUMAN to own a firearm is guaranteed and his is not...

Buddy

Telperion
June 21, 2005, 07:20 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted
Thanks for coming to a point. It's nice to see what high regard you have for your fellow man. :rolleyes:

my god i just sounds so dangerous. its much easier to kill with guns. so much easier that you can do it by accident. at least with a knife you'd have to be really really damn serious.Killing by accident? Only if you cannot comprehend the act of pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger. Surely at 19 you are capable of understanding this.

I suggest you read an article on projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) and see how you think it applies to yourself. Take some time and examine your own inclinations, and why you think people cannot be trusted. Can you be trusted?

Solo
June 21, 2005, 07:20 PM
Unlikely.
But still possible
Not one for modesty, are you?

Mr. X
June 21, 2005, 07:21 PM
if i give my age you will belive my opinions are worth nothing. ageism is such a terrible thing..

I don't think age will have anything to do with it at this point, considering you've A) denied historical fact and B) extolled the virtues of communism, all the other specious claptrap aside.

MechAg94
June 21, 2005, 07:25 PM
you know it is neither short sighter or naive, its just not your perspective. you do not know me, and i dont not know you, for all we know about each other, i may have seen, heard and thought a lot more then some of you in my short life.

I had the same attitude when I was a young teenager. I have since learned better. :) Live and learn as they say.

lunaslide
June 21, 2005, 07:25 PM
northern ireland was the focus, not the republic.
the ira did disband.
Unfortunately, all the IRA has done in recent times is become an organized crime outfit. They did not disappear as a terrorist organization as you suggest.
we won against england without guns.

Of course, there's that whole War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_War) thing when they did use guns. The Anglo-Irish treaty would not have come about if the war had not been fought, the English would have simply crushed the opposition.

Less fortunate than those in Ireland are those in Zimbabwe and Sudan, who do not have the good fortune of "winning without guns." You see, because they are being slaughtered by their government and they are defenseless to stop it. Were it that they were armed, they could defend themselves against the death squads of their governments. Also less fortunate are the people of South Africa and other nations there who suffer mugging, rape and beatings every day because they are not allowed to have firearms to defend themselves.

But to hell with all those people, right? We've got it good, our government isn't trying to kill us and comes to our rescue when we're attacked, so why should we care about them.

At least some people are starting to get the point that gun ownership is a human right (http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006986.php).
and um.. i had to mention a new point, terrorism and communism are not the same. the idea of communism is quite noble, they just havnt found many good leaders yet. jus thought id point it out, gun enthusiasts seem to really hate the whole communist thing.
Terrorism has been used to maintain power in every communist state that has ever existed. They are not the same thing certainly, but they are so closely related that one seems to necessarily follow the other. Not one communist state has grown and flourished the way that free nations have. On the continuum between communism (complete state control over an economy) and capitalism (free market economy), the prosperity of a nation can almost directly be predicted based on the model it follows. The old European nations of France, Germany, Sweden and others that have embraced socialism are stuck in 1970s growth patterns and their people, under the burden of high taxes, are drowning in debt and unemployment.

The more involved the government is in providing services that the free market should supply, the more involved that government is in the day-to-day affairs of a citizen's life. It is a blatant affront to one's freedom to live as they see fit.

I've been a gun enthusiast since I was 21. I've been a freedom enthusiast since I was 8 when I used to carry around a copy of the Bill of Rights in my pocket. It was love of liberty that brought me to guns, not love of guns that brought me to liberty.
the economic boom is drawing to a close due to inflation rates. thats just capatilism for you..
You're right, that is just capitalism for you. Free markets go through fluctuations and cycles. The money that moves through those markets collects in places for awhile, but never forever, because without the flow of that money the system ceases to function.

Consider the alternative, where in socialist countries the economy stagnates under the weight of onerous regulations and taxes and the people have less and less purchase power as their tax rates climb higher and higher. Meanwhile, the welfare class only continues to grow because their dependence on the state ensures the ever growing amount of money that it can justifiably collect.
im young and im trying to type fast. please dont make fun of my typing skills, it proves nothing.
Your typing ability isn't the only thing being impaired by your youth. I imagine you are in high school or college and still under the full influence of leftist indoctrination that you received there. Fear not, keep an open mind, question what you've been taught, do your own research, and maybe one day you will snap out of it.

Sean Smith
June 21, 2005, 07:26 PM
To recap:

There is no correlation between gun control and crime rates, even violent crime rates, either comparing areas within a country with different levels of gun control, or across borders. Crime rates vary for all kinds of reasons, but apparently not based on gun ownership. Places in this country with high legal gun ownership and few gun laws often have low crime rates, and places with low legal gun ownership and lots of gun laws sometimes have awful crime rates. Places in Europe with higher rates of gun ownership often have less crime than areas with low gun ownership. Switzerland isn't exactly one big crack gheto, you know.

So why the hell should we give the slightest bit of credence to anything you've said? You've got nothing but some vaguely-formed idea that "guns are bad." Well, color us unimpressed. The grown-ups in the room (regardless of age) are waiting for you to come up with something substantive, if they haven't written you off as half-wit bog-trotter.

Don Gwinn
June 21, 2005, 07:28 PM
Guys, this is getting pretty slow. I just read through the entire thread in one sitting, and it's pretty clear she doesn't understand any of your arguments. Her main refrain seems to be "What does that mean?" You tell her it's invalid to compare Belgium to South America, just as it's invalid to compare Ireland to the U.S., and she responds with reasons not to compare the U.S. to some combination of Belgium and South America. You make the clear statement that if only 6 out of every million people will experience a break-in, then only 24 in a nation of 4 million need worry (simple math, the ratio of 6 to 1,000,000 is the same as the ratio of 24 to 4,000,000.) Her response is "I don't know where 24 came from."

In short, your time is being wasted here. Whether deliberately or not makes little difference.

jefnvk
June 21, 2005, 07:29 PM
19 sounds to me so icredably unsafe having guns around

That is your opinion. Within arms reach, I have an M1 Garand, an 1903 Springfield, a K31 Swiss, a Ruger 10/22, and an AR15 (M16 without the auto capabilities). They cannot load themselves. They cannot do harm without human interaction. The worst they have done to me was tripped me.

If someone breaks in in the middle of the night, I am not too worried about them killing me with my weapon. For them to piuck up a foreign weapon in the dark, find the ammo and mags/enblocs, get it loaded, and kill me before I realize they are there would take a lot of luck on their part.

I am not too worried about kids playing with the guns. There are no young kids in this house. Both my brothers ahve their own firearms, they have no need to play with mine. Friends like to look, but they almost all have their own guns. The one friend that doesn't have any firearms experience gets to look while I am supervising, but he really has no interest anyways. And, while at my house, they aren't really left unsupervsed.

I'm not too worried about them going off while I am looking down the barrel. I obey the four rules, and the only accident I have ever had was while sliding my finger in the trigger guard with gloves on, and setting it off prematuerly. Even that shot only hit a few inches to the right, and no one could tell I didn't mean to do it.

I am not too worried about getting depressed and killing myself. There are plenty of other ways. Rope, water, knives, overdose on insulin, jumping headfirst out of my 2nd floor window, etc. Guns would just leave a big mess, and probably get all my families taken away for at least a short while. Not that I would ever commit suicide, it tkes away all hope of fixing whatever problem you have.

In other words, I am no more afraid of the guns that are sitting right next to me, than I would of a sex toy raping me (is that going over the line? I apologise if it is, seemed like a good analogy). or a rope strangling me, or of this screwdriver of stabbing me.

ZenMasterJG
June 21, 2005, 07:35 PM
I am no more afraid of the guns that are sitting right next to me, than I would of a sex toy raping me (is that going over the line? I apologise if it is, seemed like a good analogy).

:D Thats a GREAT analogy! :D
mind if i steal it for my profile? (assuming the mods dont yell at you, of course) :p

Iain
June 21, 2005, 07:38 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

Ouch.

Not a clever thing to say. Not going to get you far around here, add in the 'communism is noble' thing and you've lost most of the target audience. Me included.

Honestly don't think sense had any malicious intentions here, just someone stumbling along the internet feeling the need to put their twopenneth in. Not that this is always a bad thing, but research does help sense, it really does.

Play nice everyone.

rhubarb
June 21, 2005, 07:43 PM
Let me see. 4 million people. 6 in 1 million chance of someone breaking into your home. Even if each of y'all live in your own houses, that means that you have only 24 break-ins in what, a year? Geez, you're right, you don't need no guns. :rolleyes: Antis and their statistics.

Zundfolge
June 21, 2005, 07:52 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

There's the shining light on this whole discussion.

Many of us (Americans and pro-gun folk) seem to think that when we're debating this issue with anti-gun folk, Brits, Europeans et al, that they have the same goal of creating and maintaining a free society, and that they define a free society the same way we do.

Clearly in a free society gun control makes no sense, but in a police state (which is what people like sense want, because they believe the lie that they will be "safer") gun control just makes sense.


We're not debating guns, we're debating the definition of liberty.

The problem is the antis think in doublespeak they believe that slavery=freedom because they believe that a police state=security ... and that security=freedom

lunaslide
June 21, 2005, 07:58 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.
Here is what it really boils down to. If the people cannot be trusted, how can the government?
if i give my age you will belive my opinions are worth nothing. ageism is such a terrible thing..
It is, isn't it? But so is ignorance. On the other hand, wisdom and experience are wonderful things and they come with age. If I discount someone's argument, it is because it doesn't make sense or is otherwise falacious or based on bad infomation. It is not because of their age. So I'll give you some advice I got when I was younger which proves useful at all ages:

Speak little and think before you do, listen a lot and think about what others say, and pay attention to what people do even more than what they say.

dasmi
June 21, 2005, 08:04 PM
a single person should never be given so much power
Wrong. The Government never be given so much power. People should be armed to balance the scale of power. Sorry you don't feel this well, but this is how it is, and has always been, in America. Welcome the THR. If you're ever in Southern California, I'll take you shooting.

KriegHund
June 21, 2005, 08:13 PM
Wow, good way to take the high road here guys. I see....very few facts (about 3 posts worth) and bashing someone because their age...more bashing...jokes...and counter agruments based on opinions...

Huh. Real high road quality.

Sense, you sound like me 2 years ago. I thought communism was a great idea. I thought that i would never *actually* need a gun. I thought, well heck, if a robbers gonna rob my house i can just grab my sword and hide around the corner.

Until he shoots my brother and my parents. Until he steals everything. Until he never comes around that corner.
If i had had a gun? I couldve waited around that corner with a gun, or i could have grabbed that gun and done my best to protect my family.

Its more of a "Samuel colt made all men equal" Thing.



0.0800644811599597089458736609687403

Soap
June 21, 2005, 08:40 PM
This thread only needs a few more things:

-Which gun for bear?
-9mm vs. .45ACP
-Hi-Points
-Why 1911s stink
-AK vs. AR

;)

Honestly, for me it comes down to the fact that I am a free human being and as long as I do not harm someone else's right to life or property, I feel no pressure to cease whichever actions I choose. I do not care how others abuse their rights as it has no bearing on my freedom.

Do NOT confuse this attitude with apathy, it is the exact opposite since I follow a certain moral/ethical code and I also believe that it is important to care for your fellow man whether it be by being involved in charity, being a good friend, being a good son to your parents, etc.

An example of the difference in my attitude and yours is that you think that people misuse guns, therefore we must take the guns away. My attitude is that people misuse guns because that is their choice, therefore I must educate people I know to not make those poor choices. P.J. O' Rourke has an excellent quote on this:

"Everyone wants to save the world; no one wants to help mom do the dishes."

nico
June 21, 2005, 08:44 PM
Wow, good way to take the high road here guys. I see....very few facts (about 3 posts worth) and bashing someone because their age...more bashing...jokes...and counter agruments based on opinions...
you expect everyone to take every troll seriously? Lighten up. A little troll poking never hurt anybody. :)

dasmi
June 21, 2005, 08:51 PM
This thread only needs a few more things:

-Which gun for bear?
-9mm vs. .45ACP
-Hi-Points
-Why 1911s stink
-AK vs. AR

Don't forget "GLOCKS SUCK!"

Cosmoline
June 21, 2005, 09:12 PM
we won against england without guns.

You don't know your own history. Or perhaps you were taught a PC version of events

Type "Easter Rising" and "Irish Revolution" into google for a little down-and-dirty education. Your freedom was secured by men with rifles--nothing less.

jefnvk
June 21, 2005, 09:52 PM
mind if i steal it for my profile? (assuming the mods dont yell at you, of course)

Feel free to use it wherever you want, just give me the credit.

As for the age, it does make a difference. It is generally understood that in your early teens, you have the ideas for world peace. However, you can't grasp what is fundamentally wrong with thoe concepts. And of course, there is usually that whole 'no one can change my mind, I am right, you are wrong' mentality.

JJpdxpinkpistols
June 21, 2005, 10:01 PM
ireland and amrica arnt that dissimmilar. your just bigger

First off: I am sure spelling errors are due to her native tongue being Gaeilge.

Now:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html#People
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People

EI Pupulation: 4,015,676
US Population: 295,734,134

EI Square KM: 70,280 sq km
US Square KM: 9,631,418 sq km

EI GDP as expressed through purchasing power parity - $126.4 billion (2004 est.)
US GDP as expressed through purchasing power parity - $11.75 trillion (2004 est.)

and finally my FAVE measure of the health and vitality of any nation (and yes, EI passes this test):
number of radio broadcast stations:
EI: AM 9, FM 106, shortwave 0 (1998)
US: AM 4,854, FM 8,950, shortwave 18 (2004)

AS you can see, we aren't just "bigger"...we are freakin' huge! this isn't the difference between medium and large sodas at the theater. This is the difference between a thimble and a 20 liter drum. We have 73.6 TIMES your population, and we can fit 137 or your countryside into ours.

This is not to say that bigger is better...it isn't. But what would work on an island the size of one our smallish states couldn't possibly work on a country of our size.

Leaving out our peculiar attitudes as Americans...the numbers just don't pencil out. Not by a longshot. Heck, we have more guns than you have people: According to USA Today, we have 250 MILLION guns here. That comes to 62.25 guns for every man, woman and child in EI.

Genie Stuffing for fun and profit, anyone? If 60% of households in Ireland *had* guns at the time of disarmament (and I am not sure that is the case). that would make...uhh...1 million guns? 1 million vs 250 million. Stuffing 250 million genies into a bottle would be quite impossible.

enfield
June 21, 2005, 10:19 PM
1 cast , 113 bites. Not a bad afternoon of trolling.

nico
June 21, 2005, 10:23 PM
1 cast , 113 bites. Not a bad afternoon of trolling.
Yeah, but she hasn't caught anything.

I, on the other hand (and everyone else on the boat), caught my limit of rock fish and a few dozen croaker and spot this past Saturday. :p

Byron Quick
June 21, 2005, 10:46 PM
sense,

I have sucessfully defended myself against what would have been either death or massive brain damage with a handgun. I did not have to shoot my assailant. When he realized that I had evaded his first attack and was drawing a pistol...he dropped his weapon. He was armed with a three foot hickory sledge hammer handle. I believe that such are available where you live in stores that sell such. If not, do trees such as oaks grow there? If so, then someone can arm themselves as my assailant was armed. Tell you what, get someone to attack armed with a three foot sledge hammer handle wrapped in foam rubber and tape. If a knife is so easy to defend against then surely this foam and tape wrapped piece of hardwood will be even more easily defended against. Word of advice: Wear a helmet, goggles, and use a protective mouth piece during this defensive experiment. Tell your 'opponent' to go all out and hit you as much as he or she can.

I would have been dead or sustained massive brain damage without a firearm being immediately available. Why do you want me to be dead or in a permanent vegetative state? To my knowledge I have not harmed you in any way. Your hostility is not logical.

Oh, the typing thing. Two words of advice: 1)Compose your post in MS Word or Notepad and then use spell check. 2) Once you post here then read your post and use the edit function.

One more point. I own over fifty firearms. Some of them have been in my family for one hundred years. I've been watching them closely for years and years. None of them have escaped the safe during that time. None have been involved in any crime of any type. They have only been involved in the legal activities of target shooting, hunting, and self defense. Your premise is that I should not be allowed to have them, right?

Castro's Cuba. Please :barf: Please do research on Cuba's political prisoners under Castro. And how they have been treated. Same goes with Ho Chi Minh's paradise. There's a reason that thousands of Vietnamese 'boat people' fled the worker's paradise. Communism's goals as stated sound noble. Only one practical problem with that goal: it totally ignores human psychology and motivation. Good system for intelligent ants or bees though. The fact of the matter is that communism is a perfect breeding ground for megalomaniacs. Communists have killed more of their own citizens than private individuals with guns have ever come close to doing. Do the math. Add up the columns: Column 1: Number of people killed by private murderers with guns and then Column 2: Number of people killed by communist murderers with guns and other things. Some nobility, lady! :barf:

CletusFudd
June 21, 2005, 10:53 PM
"knives are much easier to defend against then guns. and a person wielding a knife is al lot less likely to use it."

You've never seen someone attacked with a knife have you?

KriegHund
June 21, 2005, 11:00 PM
Heck, ive been trained in knife techniques and the best i can do is do a (ironic) knife hand block to just block their attempts at stabbing you. Even managed to grab their hand once, and if we werent sparring i woulda broken their arm. The running away.

Guess what happens! I end up with a lotta chalk on my forearms and hand...that would equate to a lot of cuts.

So...maybe...if im really lucky...i can break their arm. A 10% chance maybe.

Orrrrr i can pull out a makarov and neither of us gets hurt.

P95Carry
June 21, 2005, 11:01 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant. sense - consider this. If a government does not or cannot trust its people - then why should the people trust government.!? Trust is a two way deal.

You may yourself consider people cannot be trusted but - folks even there in Eire are ''trusted'' to drive cars - tho of course some kill themselves, or others. Same here - there are things called rights and the U.S. thank heaven has still way more rights than most other places - it is all to do with liberty, freedom and self-determination.

Appropos your typing, spelling, grammar and ageism elements ........ sad to say, however young or old you are - there is this thing called ''credibility''. Your poor typing, construction and general presentation does sadly reflect against your subject matter - like it or not. Everyone makes errors - typo's usually but - if presentation is too bad then as you may have seen - a measure of ridicule creeps in - it goes with the territory! :)

2nd Amendment
June 21, 2005, 11:14 PM
Yeah, well, I'm now ashamed to be Irish... :rolleyes:

Zundfolge
June 21, 2005, 11:29 PM
knives are much easier to defend against then guns. and a person wielding a knife is al lot less likely to use it.

can't believe I missed that one.

You've got it backward.

1st rule of a knife fight; you WILL get cut

According to the FBI, people who rob with knives or bludgeons are significantly more likely to strike first and then take your stuff off your unconscious or dead body then someone with a gun. A larger percentage of those who rob with a gun use the gun as a bluff. People who rob with knives and bludgeons are NOT as likely to be bluffing.

If you know what you're doing, taking a gun away from someone is much easier then taking a knife away from an attacker (see that 1st rule of a knife fight) ... if you don't know what you're doing your chance of taking a knife away from an attacker is SIGNIFICANTLY less then taking a gun away from an attacker.

and I can't believe I didn't respond to this one:
guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

Again, bass-ackward.

In the US, according to the FBI there are approx 800,000 crimes committed each year with firearms. Since the early 1990s there have been something like 14 studies done and the general results are that between 1.5 and 2.5 million times a year citizens use firearms in self defense (and the vast majority of the time the weapon isn't even discharged ... let alone killing any badguys).

Do the math that's between 1.875 to 3.125 self defensive uses of firearms for every single crime committed.

Its a simple cost/benefit analysis with the benefit greatly outweighing the cost.

The simple and verifiable fact is that a well armed populace is going to have less crime overall then a disarmed one.


But then again maybe you Irish are different ... maybe y'all can't be trusted with guns (although I doubt that's true).


1 cast , 113 bites. Not a bad afternoon of trolling.
:rolleyes: I don't know whats worse ... the occasional troll we get around here or the gaggle of THR'rs who cry "TROLL" every time some mass media programed sheep comes 'round here asking the same silly questions and not listening to the answers ... some of them are trolls ... some of them are people looking to be educated and that is what THR is here for (well, that and the occasional Zombie Ninja Bear Self Defense discussion).

sense, if you're hear to learn then good for you ... welcome aboard and enjoy the road to enlightenment :)

If you're actually a troll ... go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) and ask yourself if that's really what you want to waste your time being.

akluvr
June 21, 2005, 11:37 PM
And to think I celebrate St. Patrick's Day. After a mild anuerism reading this, I weep for the Irish future. Hopefully this is a mutant gene in the pool.

campergeek
June 22, 2005, 12:44 AM
That comes to 62.25 guns for every man, woman and child


Now there's a definition of utopia if I ever saw one! :D

Owen
June 22, 2005, 01:27 AM
sense,

Can you be trusted? Do you often go on murderous rampages?

If you don't, why do you insult all of us by presuming that we do?

Why are you so much better than the average person, that your insight allows you to dictate, sight unseen, to people you have never met, what is best for them?

Most of the people here honestly believe that the average Joe, er, Seamus, is perfectly decent and trustworthy. The reasoning is: I am trustworthy, I am like other people, therefore, other people are trustworthy.

Simple, no?

If individuals are so untrustworthy, why would you trust the government, which is composed entirely of individuals?

The stated INTENT of Communism is noble. The execution of communism is not. If a system depends on good leaders to thrive, then the system is flawed.

Oh, and read a few history books about the Easter Uprising in 1916 through 1921 or so. It won't hurt much, I promise.

gc70
June 22, 2005, 02:05 AM
Five pages of troll food!

And quit ragging on Ireland; it's a beautiful country - with lots of sheep. 'Nuf said.

Cesiumsponge
June 22, 2005, 02:27 AM
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!

Dan from MI
June 22, 2005, 02:40 AM
In ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned.
That's the case in Washington DC and Chicago as well.

we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.
If I was a criminal, I don't need a gun to kill you.

The movie bowling for colombine is one to watch, even if micheal does try and streach somt things to far. guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

I'm from Michigan. I know all about Michael Moore. Michael Moore is a proven liar. He's not even from Flint like he says in an attempt for "Street Credibility".

And I'll put the murder rate in my are against the UK or Ireland's any day of the week. Last year, my entire county(of 175,000) had 0 homicides. We also have 6000 NRA members.

And if you want to hold the UK up as a model of what's right crimewise, clean up Glasgow first. It's murder rate is over 5 times that of Austin Texas which is of similar size.

Dan from MI
June 22, 2005, 02:42 AM
Glasgow - 127 murders - population around 577,869 (800,000 if including entire Metro area)

Tuscon AZ - 47 murders, 514,618 people
Denver CO - 63 murders, 565,909 people
Washington DC - 248 murders, 563,384 (Total gun ban)
Jacksonville FL - 92 murders, 776,417 people
Indianapolis - 107 murders, 800167 people
Baltimore MD - 270 murders, 644544 people
Charlotte NC - 66 murders, 668003 people
Columbus OH - 109 murders, 726151 people
Oklahoma City - 49 murders, 521,681 people
Portland OR - 27 murders, 545271 people
Memphis TN - 126 murders, 653,858 people
Nashville TN - 74 murders, 554,888 people
Austin TX - 27 murders, 682,319 people
El Paso TX - 21 murders, 586,392 people
Fort Worth TX - 57 murders, 576339 people
San Antonio TX - 85 murders, 1,212,789
Seattle WA - 34 murders, 576,296
Milwaukee WI - 109 murders, 594,269

ZenMasterJG
June 22, 2005, 08:08 AM
Dan:
Good stats, there. And i'd like to add that in good 'ole maryland, while its not impossible to get a concealed carry license, its really :cuss: difficult. SO the two highest murder rates on that list are also probably the two hardest places on there to CCW.

sense
June 22, 2005, 08:54 AM
Good 1st night debate most of you! A lot of you had valuable input or statistics to prove your case. Well done and a round of applause, put together you could convince.


To the poeple who argued purly based on opinion, tghose who cant say anything but Bwaa! Troll! or Spellchecker! or started teasing the opponents name/age/nationality/education etc,
a word of advice: Don't argue in a debate if you cant make a valid point you are just proving to the Anti/opponent the stereotype that all gun lovers are red- necks with no education.

i declare the debate over, ill be on the other boards asing what kind of guns are best for use in sci-fi comics. (gotta do the reaserch)

nico
June 22, 2005, 09:14 AM
To the poeple who argued purly based on opinion, tghose who cant say anything but Bwaa!
have you read any of your own posts? What fact have you posted? :rolleyes:

TarpleyG
June 22, 2005, 09:22 AM
It's not like us to bash some poor new guy over the head like this. Granted, he did come on a little strong in the beginning but it is still our place to educate, not berate and belittle. I feel dirtier for having read all this.

Sense, check back in from time to time. The majority of us simply want to correct this "image" that anti-gun people and people who, like yourself, wouldn't, couldn't know better not being a part of our American culture--the gun culture.

I have an Irish woman that works with me and I have known her for a few years now. She thinks just like sense, or at least she did until I started educating her. I even gave her a copy of Armed and Female to read. Need to see if she ever read it.

Greg

Soap
June 22, 2005, 09:23 AM
Somehow I knew my post would be wasted :rolleyes:

sense
June 22, 2005, 10:25 AM
no need to check back, i need an all night forums to test links and things, as well as a place to referance sci-fi guns. i wont be leaving. besides, it'll do you go to have an ante in your midst. Just play nice is all.

umm nico, debates over.

Fred Fuller
June 22, 2005, 10:34 AM
That was a debate?

Wow.

cuchulainn
June 22, 2005, 10:41 AM
I'll call your ante and raise you fifty dollars, er fifty punts or fifty euros or whatever.

RevDisk
June 22, 2005, 11:13 AM
fidel castro's cuba is doing fine.

there might have been hope for ho chi mihn's system if you hasnt go involved.

Apparently you have not heard of the Isle of Pines in lovely Cuba. Makes Gitmo look like paradise. As for Communist Vietnam, hardly a lovely place. After unification, a lot of people got shot in the back of the head or sent to re-education camps. Vietnam also has very strict gun control laws. Any civilian found with a firearm is shot.


thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

Perhaps that is the root of your issue with firearms. You distrust 'the masses' and prefer to enslave them rather than trust them. Beware of what you wish for, you might get it.



You seem to be operating under a mistake. That our firearm laws should be based off crime rates. This is incorrect. Even if our crime rates were ten times what they are, this would not matter. Our civil liberties are codified in our Constitution, and a set of amendments called the "Bill of Rights".

Granted, our Constitution and BoR have pretty much been ignored for a long time. It's not right, nor legal, ethical or moral. We're unfortunately in the position were two nearly identical parties have a lock on the government. Well, one party at the moment. We've made progress in some areas (CCW reform, for instance), and lost a lot of freedoms in others (see the Patriot Act and other antiterrorism laws). It's an on-going struggle.


Besides. This is all theory. Suppose all guns were banned tomorrow in the US. This would be a violation of the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Seventh amendments to our Constitution. Ignoring that for a second. How exactly would you propose rounding them up?

Soap
June 22, 2005, 02:38 PM
Debate's over? I understand that you are young but what you are doing is very rude. This is a community of people who have excellent educational backgrounds, millenia of real-world wisdom, and all-in-all are fine human beings. You come over to our house and stir up a hornet's nest and then skip out. It is the equivalent of letting your dog crap on your neighbor's lawn and then just trotting away. In fact, I am surprised that you will not be asking about which firearms to use in the sci-fi story.

Mornard
June 22, 2005, 02:59 PM
You are so full of crap. You do have guns in the UK, All guns are not banned. Most handguns are banned. There is a great deal of hunting and shooting in the UK, and what is being used, if guns are banned? And rather than trying to be reasonable, just let me say the rest of your ideas are full of crap too... I am no longer in the mood with being reasonable on these topics. Reasonableness will never overcome ignorance, so I shall not bother.

Sean Smith
June 22, 2005, 03:07 PM
What does it take for a troll to get banned around here, anyway? :confused:

richyoung
June 22, 2005, 03:11 PM
First of all - how old are you? Do you travel alone, or with your family still? I live in Lawton, Oklahoma, (I work on Fort Sill army base...) and we have an extra bedroom. I'm sure the msrs wouldn't mind if you stayed with us a week or two, and came and saw for yourself. I'll even take you to a range and let you shoot, and introduce you to some fellow gun enthusiasts. We can even work in a few day trips to the OKC memorial, or even the Alamo. You might find it hard to believe, but I once believed much as you do now...unfortunately, only time and experience will show you that what they teach in school isn't the whole story, by a long stretch.

BTW, some guns that "look cool" for science fiction are the Desert Eagle, Baby Eagle, any number of Glocks, german MG-42, Dardick Tround revolver, S&W "Lemmon squeezer", broomhandle mauser, luger, anything by Calico with the helical magazine, Thompson SMB, FN FAL, M60, any of the motor-driven Gattling style miniguns, GyroJet, H&K MP5. Hope that gets you started...

nico
June 22, 2005, 03:31 PM
I'm guessing no older than 12. The combination of thinking communism just hasn't had any good leaders, self centeredness, and typos (I could type reasonably quickly and intelligibly by the time I was 14 and I didn't even have the internet) show she's still got a lot of learning/maturing to do.

Iain
June 22, 2005, 04:03 PM
So she is a kid, so she stirred up a hornets nest, her typing (and possibly spelling too) sucks and she's not done enough reading on communism. That's not enough to call for her to be banned.

It is enough for there to be a need for some things to be explained patiently and politely, as some have done. To be honest, when a thread like this crops up there is a massive over reaction from many members, be that the tone and content of their posts, or the sheer volume of replies. Scares people off and never gives them a chance to come back at you. Especially unfair on a kid.

Sense, welcome to THR. Your intro was a little rough, partly due to your argument being ill thought out. Stay, read and ask polite questions if you want to get a handle on this aspect of American culture, I think I'm just starting to get there myself.

Sean Smith
June 22, 2005, 04:40 PM
I disagree. I see no obligation for us to put up with illiterate morons with a snotty attidue and a total lack of sense (no pun intended). Of course, that's for the management to decide. But there is quite a difference between posting a controversial opinion on the forum, and simply showing your ass.

Byron Quick
June 22, 2005, 04:53 PM
sense, what debate??? You were debating? I sincerely hope you join the debate club at school for you desperately need the experience.

By the way, you have referenced science fiction several times. My signature line comes from a science fiction novel by A.E. van Vogt:"The Weapon Shops of Isher."

yinyangdc
June 22, 2005, 05:15 PM
thats cause people cant be trusted. they really cant.

Who makes up the government if not people? Also, add the old homage, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
non-Sense would trust the power of government made up by people who can't be trusted.

My head is spinning.

Ryder
June 22, 2005, 05:19 PM
Guess it's true, they do have a lot of sheep over there. :evil:


"if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught."
>>The ignorance in that statement is stupendous. I've taken heads clean off with a kinfe. One swipe. Happens fast, don't blink or you'll miss it.

"If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening."
>>I and all my brothers, sisters, and cousins grew up around easily available LOADED firearms. That's a lot of kids. I myself had 4 brothers and sisters. Don't think I've yet met all of my cousins. Why didn't we ever touch them and have an "accident"? Let me know when you find out about that will you? I am very curious to know the answer.

"or if somone is feeling a bit deppressed or angry (we all do occasionly) you are doing the worst thing possibe; arming them.."
>>I am expertly qualified to address this. I have owned guns for over 30 years and I am always mad about something, sometimes depressed, but not usually since being mad at things keeps me happy. I've walked around in public with a loaded gun off and on for much of that time. No problem. How does being depressed or mad equate to being violent? Those are 3 different things. Add guns to the mix and you have a 4'th different thing. There's no hard link except in your imagination.

"isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?"
>> I must be unlucky or something because even though we are swimming in guns I don't personally know of a single person who has been seriously injured by a gun. Not even by accident.

>>You have many misconceptions. That can happen. I find that I have them too from time to time. No big deal if you're willing to learn. Anyway, sci-fi guns? I'd say check out Buck Rogers. That style is about as good as it gets as far as I'm concerned.

jefnvk
June 22, 2005, 06:10 PM
I disagree. I see no obligation for us to put up with illiterate morons with a snotty attidue and a total lack of sense (no pun intended).

That describes the majority of kids. Are you simply going to continue to let them think guns = bad, because your message doesn't seem to be going through?

Sindawe
June 22, 2005, 06:23 PM
sense: It would do you good to invest in a product such as this: http://www.fornada.com/html/quickspell.html and add this site: http://dictionary.reference.com/ to the bookmarks in your web browser. Trust me, I speak from personal experience on spelling/grammer. :D Don't argue in a debate if you cant make a valid point you are just proving to the Anti/opponent the stereotype that all gun lovers are red- necks with no education. Well, you will NOT get very far in the comics trades if you can not put together a coherent sentence or spell worth a darn. :rolleyes:

richyoung
June 22, 2005, 06:39 PM
Sense isn't bad..she's just young! Be patient - I was once a victim of a public education system. Having a father that did two tours in 'nam helped "balance" the views a little better. Remeber, "children are our future"...and "it's for the children"

Mr. X
June 22, 2005, 07:07 PM
Trust me, I speak from personal experience on spelling/grammer.

That's "grammar," pardner. ;)

Moondoggie
June 22, 2005, 07:38 PM
I just got back home after plying my trade over the road for a couple of days.

Took a bit of effort to wade through this thread. I think it digests better being able to read the whole thing at once rather than in small bites.

"Ageism"....that's a hoot! Sense attempts to link "Ageism" to all of the other evil "Ism's" in order to deflect against attacks upon her flawed/undeveloped logic. Not a solid debating tactic. Not a winner, either!

Note to Sense; the saying "The older I get, the smarter my father becomes" is one that holds a universal truth. The thing is, we all were once your age and recognize your point of view from our personal experience; you can't say the same. Ever heard of "The idealism of youth"? I'll call your "Ism's" and raise you one. :)

Your perception of communism is particularly idealistic. It sounds great in theory, but it has only lead to totalanarianism (See, all of us need a little help with our spelling from time to time! I could add a dozen or so more letters to that word and it still wouldn't look right.), mass murder, untold human suffering, and economic disaster...it just has no practical application in the real world. You can't legislate individuality out of the human psyche, even when implemented by the very real threat of death/imprisonment. Every socialist "experiment" has resulted in nothing more than enslavement of the common people; read: Subjects.

I hope you stay around here on THR and continue to debate your point of view. I think you will find a thoughtful and compassionate bunch of folks here now that we realize that your purpose is not just to create controversy.

Sindawe
June 22, 2005, 07:58 PM
That's "grammar," pardner See what I mean? QuckSpell does not catch that structure. :D

Andrew Rothman
June 22, 2005, 08:08 PM
I get enough rude, irrational condescention at work. I don't need it from snot-nosed, ignorant children with delusions of rationality.

Baba Louie
June 22, 2005, 08:37 PM
sense,
With respect, the debate is not over, it is never over. Not in this country, not in the UN, not where any one person or governing agency feels the need to control those free men and women who live within their jurisdiction or reach, not in any nation where one criminal or wild animals (same thing, different species) can strike harm and cause fear in another human being.

No, the debate is not over, unless you agree that only through the use of one particular type of tool invented some time ago, does one person have power (thus freedom) in their hands, in their control, and they use that tool and power properly.
It is an exercise in responsibility and self control that only a very few nations have recognized that the individual has that right, and that right, being given to mankind by a higher power, must be exercised to maintain a Free State.

By your statements, you feel that no one can be trusted. Maybe that is right in your nation. It also appears that you feel that your upbringing and thought process should be forced on all the world. You would not be the first. You will not be the last. As long as that is the case...The debate will continue.

And I will remain armed. As will my children. As was my father and his father before him. We are Americans. It is different in Ireland. So be it. It must work for you. It would not work here. We are way to used to freedom. Way to used to self control.

But can you do me a favor? There's a clan of Irish in and near Boston MA by the name of Kennedy. Could you call them back home soon??? Please? :D
Their thought process seems to match your own in several areas. I don't think they got the idea after all.

P95Carry
June 22, 2005, 10:15 PM
A small caveat to add - inspired by a guy on another board, who teaches.

He tells his kids about ''issues'' and ''agendas''. Let me quote what he wrote - he says it well IMO ... I told them all semester (I came into the school as a special recruit in the middle of the year) and right off, I told them that I was like no other teacher they'd ever had in their lives or ever would have in the future. I explained to them that I was about issues and AGENDAS. They all wanted an example of each, so I told them in our class we would be discussing all sides of all topics thus creating an ISSUE.

Then I asked the class: "Has ANYBODY in all your 12 years in the public schools EVER told you anything GOOD about GUNS?" Not one hand went up. I told them: "THAT'S AN AGENDA." Then I said: "Okay, has anybody in all your 12 years in the public schools EVER told you anything BAD about the UNITED NATIONS?"

Again, not a single hand and suddenly a LOT of understanding expressions. I continued: "THAT is an AGENDA. It means that somebody somewhere didn't give you BOTH or ALL sides of the story. Maybe out of love and the best of intentions and maybe not. But it removed your free will to DECIDE on your own about the things that affect your life. And it's okay even if you agree with the AGENDA as long as you arrive at that conclusion after seeing all sides and bouncing that off your values and beliefs."

Clean97GTI
June 22, 2005, 10:38 PM
Just an FYI, but violent crime is higher in the UK than it is in the US.

iapetus
June 23, 2005, 10:57 AM
Hello Sense. Welcome to the High Road.

You have already seen posts made by Americans who have generally been brought up around guns and believing in the importance of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. You might like to hear from someone (myself) who is neither American, (I'm British) nor has been brought up with guns, but in recent years has come to believe the same as they have (having formerly thought much the same as you).


Firstly, a few factual corrections. You said:


In Ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned.

Not true, at least in the UK. I am a member of my university's rifle club, and regularly use a rifle for target shooting. (Normally a .22, but last weekend we went to an outdoor range to use the larger 7.62mm rifles). So, although we have a lot of restrictions on gun ownership, it is still possible to own or use one.

I think you said in a later post that you would be scared to be near a gun (apologies if I misread). But you needn't be. A gun cannot do anything by itself, and as long as the person using it obeys some very simple safety rules, no harm will be done. I'm sure that my cycling through London to get to the rifle club is more dangerous that using the guns there.


As for there being no illegal guns in the UK, that is not true either.

Although it seems to have calmed down recently, a few months ago, there seemed to be a "firearms incident" in my neighborhood at least once a month. (Including an armed robbery literally round the corner from my house, where shots were fired at the police). All these crimes were committed using handguns, which have been totally banned in the UK since 1997. But these laws seem to have little effect on the availability or use of prohibited weapons. In fact, rates of gun crime have actually increased several fold since the band. Most gun crime is, I believe, related to the drug trade. I.e. by criminals whose entire industry revolves around importing and selling prohibited items.


We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our families' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

I'm not afraid to walk the streets. But people do get robbed, or worse, by gangs or loan criminals. Last autumn, for example, a man out walking at night in central London, in a popular tourist spot, was beaten to death by a gang of teenagers. And one of my housemates was mugged within about 100 yards of our home (fortunately not injured).

Burglaries are also quite common. Every so often there is a story on the news about (e.g.) an elderly woman being beaten/stabbed, often fatally, in their own home by a burglar. And while I don't have any statistics to hand, I believe burglaries are much more common here than in the US, and the proportion of "hot" burglaries (where the homeowner is in at the time) is much greater. Mostly because in the US, burglary is much more dangerous for the burglar than it is in the UK.


If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty criminals can get one, so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done.


As I said, not true. More and more criminals, including petty ones, are using guns in the UK.


Now to address some of your other points:


If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening.

True. But there are many, many things in a house that are potentially dangerous. A good parent will keep where a child cannot get them. While you might want to protect children from negligent parents, it is not fair to prevent everybody from owning a device that can be life-saving (or even just enjoyable or useful) simply because some people would not use it properly. (Besides, someone who leaves a loaded gun where a child can get it is likely to leave bleach or medicine where they can reach it).


guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.
The guns I have used have only ever been used for making holes in paper. There are people who post on this forum who have used a gun for defense. The idea that most guns are used for killing just doesn't fit the statistics.


if you have a gun then your attack will too, it just depends whose fastest, and hes the one with no moral consience. isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?


Did you mean to say "if you have a gun then your attacker will too"?

Legal gun owners and criminal gun users generally get their weapons from different sources. (Respectable shops, with various forms and background checks to work though depending on the State/Country, vs. illegal smugglers and dealers). Preventing normal, law-abiding citizens from owning guns has a negligible effect on criminal ownership.

But even if it did - what then? Criminals by their nature prey on those weaker than them. If no one had a gun, the criminals would attack people who are smaller or weaker than them (or use a kitchen knife or baseball bat or brick or other such deadly weapon). Or attack as a gang. In such a situation, you are at the mercy of the criminals. You cannot easily fight. You might be able to run, assuming you are a good runner. You can call the police, but they take time to arrive. (There was a recent case in the UK where a woman was murdered by her ex partner before the police had time to turn up). And in any case, even if you get away, the criminals are unlikely to have lost anything by threatening you.

As you said – they are the ones with no moral conscience. I would not want to stake my life on the benevolence of a violent criminal, especially one who was trying to rob me (or worse).e

One of the biggest differences that a gun would make is this: it gives the "victim" a chance. It’s not a magic talisman, but it means that a weak person can defend themselves against a strong person, or a gang. It makes it dangerous to be a criminal.


To put it another way:
I believe everyone has a natural right to life, and to freedom.

Unfortunately, some people don't believe that, and are willing to harm or destroy the life of others for their personal gain.

If someone has a right to life, then they must also have a right to defend it from those who would deny them that right. The law agrees - if the only way to defend your life is to kill your attacker, you are entitled to do so.

However, to do so, you must have the means to. Some people can defend themselves with their strength, or martial arts, etc. But some cannot. And some threats cannot be defended against that way either. A gun is merely a tool. But it is a tool that can be used to save your life, or the life of another.

True, most people will never "need" a gun. But if find it morally repugnant that "the powers that be" can say to a person with no criminal record or sign of dangerous behavior "The small risk of you being killed because you cannot defend yourself is a price we are willing to take, to avoid the tiny risk that you will misuse you defensive weapon".

I could say more about history and dictatorships, etc, and why I believe it is important that peoples (not just persons) are well armed, but this has got be quite a long post. If you want to hear more, I'll gladly tell you.


Hope this has been useful for you, or at least interesting.

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 12:23 PM
iapetus - from a fellow (EX!) Brit - good post. :)

Justin
June 23, 2005, 01:18 PM
fidel castro's cuba is doing fine.

there might have been hope for ho chi mihn's system if you hasnt go involved.

Woefully late, but I'll leave you with the following quote:

You can't get good chinese takeout in China and cuban cigars are rationed in Cuba. That's all you need to know about communism. -P.J. O'Rourke

iapetus
June 23, 2005, 01:23 PM
P95Carry
iapetus - from a fellow (EX!) Brit - good post.


Thanks :)

Mr. X
June 23, 2005, 02:12 PM
A small caveat to add - inspired by a guy on another board, who teaches.

He tells his kids about ''issues'' and ''agendas''. Let me quote what he wrote - he says it well IMO ...

Got a link to that other board and thread? I'd like to read more about what happened.

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 02:23 PM
Mr X - sure here is The Link (http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=30886) - tho the part I quoted was IMO the main thrust of what he was writing.

Mr. X
June 23, 2005, 02:39 PM
Thanks. I haven't read it yet, but I was wondering if that guy was in Leavenworth now, having actually told those kids about "EVIL" guns and asked them to question what they have and have not been taught. ;)

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 02:46 PM
All I know of his 10-20 is he from FL.

one-shot-one
June 23, 2005, 03:56 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144133

Hawkmoon
June 23, 2005, 04:00 PM
Please use official government crime statistics to demonstrate again for us how much safer England is today (and particularly London) than it was, oh, say five years ago, before the goverment banned private ownership of firearms.

Ireland may still be relatively safe, but when you include England (and Scotland?) in your discussion it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Test1968
June 23, 2005, 05:48 PM
All I can say to answer your tripe is please go ask Veronica Guerin about guns in Ireland.

iapetus
June 26, 2005, 11:46 AM
Btw, Sense, if you're still around and loking for Sci-fi-looking guns, here are some good ones:

The first three are all real guns (even the FN F2000!). The last one is the "pulse rifle" from ]Aliens, which was made from real guns (a Thompson sub-machinegun and some sort of shotgun, with "spacy" decorations stuck on).

Hawkmoon
June 26, 2005, 03:48 PM
i may have seen, heard and thought a lot more then some of you in my short life.
You may ... but, as others have commented, it's unlikely.

Have you encountered the name of our writer and humourist, Mark Twain? Mark Twain once commented (I may have the ages wrong, but the point is unaltered) that "When I was 13 years old I was constantly embarrassed by my father's stupidity. When I reached the age of 21 I was astonished at how the old man had learned in those few years."

So, not to presume to speak for anyone other than myself, let's do a quick life experience check:

* Been in 19 countries
* Fought in one war (two medals, no wounds)
* Survived three serious automobile accidents (none of my own creation)
* Qualified as a professional automobile racer
* One state autocross championship (runner-up twice)
* Material witness in two Federal white collar crimes (when's the last time you wore a wire recorder to a meeting with your boss, followed by two FBI agents assigned to pull you out if the wire was discovered?)
* Recovered a house full of stolen property -- before the owners knew the house had been burglarized
* Qualified sailing instructor
* Published author
* Recovered two girls who were lost in the forest

There's more, but I see no need to toot my own horn beyond this. The point is that, with the zeal and enthusiasm of youth, you believe that you have already encountered a lot and done a lot. In the limited context of 19 years of life, such a view is understandable. Unfortunately, it is also incorrect. I submit that 99% of the respondents on this forum have seen and done so much more than you in terms of "life experience" that comparisons would be a waste of time.

I would also point out that you came here under false pretenses. I believe you indicated in one of your early posts that you wanted to learn. However, your subsequent posts demonstrate that you are not remotely interested in learning anything from us. You are interested only in trying to force us to accept your severely myopic perspective, and to agree with you. That is not going to take place. Therefore, if you wish to learn ... welcome. If, on the other hand, you wish only to prosletyze ... farewell.

bjbarron
June 27, 2005, 12:24 AM
As a famous General once said...

Baloney

One day's news in Northern Irland...

Petrol bomb thrown at Tyrone Police Station
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61866&pt=n
Robbery in Armagh
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61881&pt=n
Gun Crime in Limerick
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61886&pt=n
Riot in Dungannon
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61873&pt=n

And in the Republic

Huge increase in violent crime...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1760781.stm

There is an old American saying..."don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".

- Proud 1st Generation American-Irish...accent on American.

brian roberts
June 27, 2005, 09:06 PM
(Profane personal attacks deleted.)

Hawkmoon
June 27, 2005, 11:53 PM
(Quotation of profane personal attacks deleted.
Excellent! Nicely done. Brian.

How very High Road of you. (Not!)

Don Gwinn
June 28, 2005, 12:13 AM
Geez, is this thing still open? My apologies, folks.

(There are one or two of you to whom I'm not apologizing here . . . you'll be seeing PM's soon.)

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