Front Sight Alaska--A Joke


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Cosmoline
June 21, 2005, 05:27 PM
I was excited to see this training facility pop up out of nowhere:

http://www.frontsight.com/Alaska/

We have no advanced training facilities here, only clases held on an ad hoc basis up at Birchwood. I was interested in taking one of their courses just to see what it was like. So I called up to register and was curtly informed that

A) Only select frontsight Members are allowed to take courses in Alaska and
B) As an Alaskan I was barred from applying for such a membership.

:cuss: :fire:

That's no way to be a nice neighbor. I wish I could find someway to sue them over this. They're using Alaskan resources but have a ban on residents. Sadly, as a private organization I believe they are allowed to be rude pigs.

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Jay Kominek
June 21, 2005, 06:19 PM
A) Only select frontsight Members are allowed to take courses in Alaska and
B) As an Alaskan I was barred from applying for such a membership.
That is bizarre. Did they provide any justification? Or did they just refuse to discuss it?

pbhome71
June 21, 2005, 06:28 PM
It looks like there is no training facilities there, but rather a place to hunt. Please note "Front Sight Resort". :)

It is still strange that as an Alaskan, you can not sign up.

Cosmoline
June 21, 2005, 07:27 PM
They offered no justification, and the fellow seemed highly annoyed that I had called. I suspect you're right and there actually are no training facilities at all.

TarpleyG
June 22, 2005, 10:06 AM
Front Sight is much more than a shooting class. It is a 'Front' for a lot of stuff, one is a resort-type thing where you pay a timeshare for use of the facilities. If you happen to have a lot of money, beware that they may badger you into joining the Church of Scientology too.

Anyone watch The 4400? The 4400 institute reminds me of this stuff.

http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/
http://whyaretheydead.net/misc/work/Frontsight/

Greg

ClonaKilty
June 22, 2005, 01:17 PM
If you happen to have a lot of money, beware that they may badger you into joining the Church of Scientology too.

This is absolutely false. I've been there several times and never been so "badgered." Nor have any of my friends who go there experienced this.

How many times have you been to Front Sight? Never, right?

Cosmoline: The issue of not being allowed to join as an Alaskan is weird. I find the operators on the 800-number at FS can be less than optimal, too. You can email the owner Ignatius Piazza at ignatius@frontsight.com and ask if this is really the case. From what I hear, he is pretty good about responding to emails.

As for the scientology thing, do a search here in THR and you'll read all sides of the story. I won't defend FS on all counts. But talk to those who have been there and make up your own mind.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 02:04 PM
Personally, I could care less whether they're run by scientologists, LDS, or the Sisters of Providence. I don't appreciate people telling Alaska residents we're not good enough to train at their facilities. My money's just as green as some **********n's.

TarpleyG
June 22, 2005, 02:06 PM
Look, I posted links to one person's experience that I learned about. Take it for what it's worth--use it or don't. I have no doubt that Front Sight has some of the best instructors around and I can only hope none of them are associated with a scam to try and suck people into their giant pyramid scheme.

Greg

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 03:26 PM
If their goal is to indoctrinate people, telling them to take a hike isn't the best way to do it.

I strongly suspect that "Frontsight Alaska" is little more than a tax write off that allows the owners and employees to screw around up here during the summer. They only "train" people they know they can trust not to spill the beans. If so, they're playing a dangerous game with the IRS.

ClonaKilty
June 22, 2005, 03:53 PM
I don't appreciate people telling Alaska residents we're not good enough to train at their facilities. My money's just as green as some **********n's.

You have every right to be ticked about this. Do you remember the name of the person you talked to? Just curious as I've gotten the same poor customer service when I call.

I've seen at Dianne Hsieh's website and I really respect her.

ClonaKilty
(aka Some Californian)

444
June 22, 2005, 03:54 PM
Wow, I would have never expected another thread about Front Sight filled with wild speculation on The High Road.............
Dream on, that is exactly what I expect on THR.

Let's see:
It's a joke: but you have never been there.
Someone else says they might try to indoctinate you in Scientology: and that person has never been there either.
And they might be using it for a tax scam: but you have nothing to back that up.

Situation normal at THR.

duckslayer
June 22, 2005, 03:56 PM
Either that or they are booking hunting trips for non-Alaskans so they can charge an astronomical guide fee since the state requires out-of-staters to pay a guide to hunt certain animals.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 03:56 PM
I did not, but it would be great if other people would call and ask about making reservations for Frontsight Alaska.

"Contact Front Sight Alaska at 800-987-7719 to discuss your scheduling needs."

Maybe I just got a bad egg. See if you can make reservations for one of the courses at the Alaska range. What I was told is only special members were even allowed to go there, and that I could not become such a member. The fellow did NOT seem happy to hear the words "frontsight Alaska." I got the distinct impression I was treading on verbotten ground.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 04:02 PM
444--

WHY WON'T THEY LET ME ATTEND A COURSE! This is the only question that I want an answer to. I've been a member of several local shooting ranges for many years. I'm well known in the area. I'm interested in taking a two day course at their facility. And yet they tell me to go to hell. Either their customer service is the worst imaginable or something very fishy is going on.

Why do you build a shooting resort in Alaska and never even bother to advertise at ANY gun stores? I stumbled on their site last year by accident, and I've heard ZIP from locals about it. It's extremely odd, almost like they don't care if they make money off of it. Hence my suspicion that it's a tax dodge. I could really care less about their religion. It doesn't matter one bit to me. But this whole operation stinks. It reminds me of those weird little gun stores where the owner seems to be upset that you're even in his shop--weird little stores that are also often tax write offs or worse.

444
June 22, 2005, 04:21 PM
.

Jeff White
June 22, 2005, 04:23 PM
Moving to General Gun Discussions....Jeff

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 04:25 PM
Was that your rejoinder 444, or did you just hit the wrong key :D

spacemanspiff
June 22, 2005, 04:51 PM
Wow, I would have never expected another thread about Front Sight filled with wild speculation on The High Road...
i hear they eat babies at their secret-members-only-training-facility-that-no-one-in-alaska-can-attend shindigs.

:neener:

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 04:53 PM
Spiff--do me a favor and call that number. See if they'll let you in. Maybe they just don't like the way I smell or something. I'm not a conspiracy nut and I could care less about diaretics or whatnot.

ClonaKilty
June 22, 2005, 05:32 PM
I could care less about diaretics or whatnot

:p

Hopefully you can straighen it out, it really is good training. One of the key FS instructors, Brad Ackman, is an Alaska native and typically teaches up there in the summer.

M99M12
June 22, 2005, 05:47 PM
Maybe they read your thread about how the US, for a hunnert years, ain't had a good rifle. :what:

Ultima-Ratio
June 22, 2005, 05:48 PM
IF in fact you are seeking professional training as you mentione somewhere up top. Call Alaska Tactical on Muldoon, the owner Steve McDaniel is a certified Gunsite Instructor for all levels of handgun/rifle and shotgun.
907-338-3458

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 05:53 PM
Maybe they read your thread about how the US, for a hunnert years, ain't had a good rifle.

LOL. That would also explain why I just got a NICS delay after years without one! There must be a special double top secret list for people who dis the Garand too much :uhoh:

spacemanspiff
June 22, 2005, 06:10 PM
'not available to the general public', guy i spoke with was also irritated.

"you have to be a member."

"how do i become one?"

"FSA is a supplement we offer to existing members."

"okay, i'll take my business elsewhere."



look at their testimonial page. the comments sound very canned.

Spreadfire Arms
June 22, 2005, 06:20 PM
i had a friend in Las Vegas go to Front Sight for a job as a groundskeeper last year. he felt they had a lot of rules and seemed like a "commune" in his words.

1. they have a gated community and have plans to build a school, shopping mall, grocery store, etc, all in the compound.

2. they wanted him to work 18 hour days. he said he had a son to look after in Las Vegas. they encouraged him to move his family into the compound.

3. they wanted him to also do perimeter security around the community however they would not allow him to be armed until he took some of their courses. thus they said they would take the tuition for the courses out of his paycheck. so in essence, to do his job which required him to be armed he had to take their courses to be armed and they'd take it out of his check. sounds like a scam...... :confused:

needless to say he didn't bother....

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 06:23 PM
Thanks Spiff! Glad to see it wasn't just my personal hygiene problems.

If a church or whatever wants to build a double top secret compound up here, more power to them. I'm building one myself. I just get mad when they advertise as though they actually had a real training camp here, when in reality it's nothing of the kind.

Red Tornado
June 22, 2005, 06:28 PM
There were some links that take you to frontsite/nevada. Maybe you could join the Nevada group Cosmoline, since you're from Alaska. Then you could maybe transfer your membership. :D
RT

M99M12
June 22, 2005, 06:29 PM
NCIS? NOW your cool. :neener:

torpid
June 22, 2005, 06:30 PM
Fascinating.


.

spacemanspiff
June 22, 2005, 06:42 PM
Glad to see it wasn't just my personal hygiene problems
i hope you werent too hasty and did something rash, like, bathe. :neener:

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 06:53 PM
It's well known that bathing lowers the resistances!

444
June 22, 2005, 10:55 PM
First of all, I love the use of the word compound. This is normally a word used by the liberal news media to describe anyone's home that owns a gun. I see now that gun owners are using the same term to describe other gun owners when they are attempting to say something dramatic.

"they have a gated community.........compound".
I haven't been there for over a year, but the last time I was there, this was not true. If your friend was there last year, I know he was mistaken. They are planning on having a gated community but that phase of construction wasn't even started the last time I was there.

"they encouraged him to move his family into the compound."
I am sure they did. As I recall, the lots were for the ...................... compound started somewhere in the range of 1/2 million dollars. Who knows, maybe a groundskeeper makes that kind of money ? They knew what they were paying him; right ? In any case, call Frontsight Nevada and tell them you are inquiring about a residential lot and see what they cost. Wait, make sure you tell them you want one in the compound.

"they would not allow him to be armed until he took some of their courses "
So your buddy applied for a job as groundskeeper, and balked at the idea that he should be trained if he wanted to do armed security. Ok.
I have to agree that making him pay for the class is pretty lame. I know this is true because their instructors have to pay for classes also. I know they get continuing education, but if they want to just take a class for fun, they have to pay for it.

What this so called compound actually is going to be is a town made up entirely of gun owners. Actually, not just gun owners, but gun owners who also dig taking classes as well as owning guns. This community is extremly high end and expensive. When you buy the lot you are actually buying their Platnum membership which entitles you to take any Frontsight course and any Frontsight course that will ever be offered as many times as you want. To give you an idea of what this membership costs, one of the details is that you can pass the membership upon your death in your will. The membership also includes a lot in the community. So, this "compound" will be inhabited by very well off professional people.

spacemanspiff: the information you posted was what I was going to post earlier but I decided it was a waste of time: the truth isn't nearly as poplular on TFL as BS. I am a Frontsight member and was offered a membership to Frontsight Alaska but didn't take advantage of it. So, yes I have actually been to Frontsight: wow, that is unheard of on this board to actually know what you are talking about.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 11:02 PM
I am a Frontsight member and was offered a membership to Frontsight Alaska but didn't take advantage of it.

Ah good. Then perhaps you can explain this policy of setting up a training camp here, then telling any actual, real live Alaskans who happen to call about attending to ****. It seems like an odd business plan to me. Very odd.

444
June 22, 2005, 11:13 PM
I honestly don't remember the details. This may not be true, this was a couple years ago and I wasn't really interested when they were talking about it. But the post made by spacemanspiff is what I remember them saying. It was an addional facility for the people who were already members of Frontsight Nevada. No one said that Alaska residents weren't eligble for membership, I am sure there are residents of Alaska that are members.
Becoming a member is touched upon on their website here: http://www.frontsight.com/memberships.asp
This is one of their memberships. They have something like a half dozen. The one on the link above is about middle of the road. Frontsight Alaska is a fee in addition to the price for that membership. When this idea was first proposed I think the fee for Frontsight Alaska was around two grand over and above the cost of your membership for Frontsight Nevada: I am sure it has gone up many fold since then.

Something that I find interesting. You mentioned that they don't advertise in ANY gunshops. As far as I know, they don't advertise at all. The only advertisement I have ever seen for them was a billboard right near their Nevada facility. Never the less, they claim to have more students annually than all other firearms training schools in the US combined. I have very little doubt this is true. I have taken five classes there over a period of several years and every time I was there, there were several hundred students taking a class at that time (not all the same class I was: this number of people was everyone taking any class at the facility when I was there. ). When I was at Gunsite (four times) they might have had 30 students there. When I took the basic pistol class at Frontsight, there was easily over 50 persons in my class with an instructor for every 4-5 students I might add before someone starts on that subject.
They have used two avenues to recruit students: word of mouth and free Uzi classes.

"look at their testimonial page. the comments sound very canned"
I don't think so. When I read through those a few years ago, I was surprised to find that I actually knew a couple of those people just from living in this area. For example, one of the women who's testimonial appears on that page rode along with me when she was taking her EMT class. At the time, I hadn't been to Frontsight but I remember that I was reading a gun magazine and she struck up a conversation with me about guns. She mentioned that she had a CCW and carried a full sized 1911. She also mentioned that she had been to Frontsight and spoke very highly of it. By the way, even though this was about three years ago, I remember her because she was very good looking and had blond hair down to her waist.
Based on those few people who were quoted that I actually know, I doubt that any of it was canned.
After you finish a class there, you fill out an evaluation form: I am sure that is where those testimonials come from.
I know that after I took my basic handgun class there, I praised them up and down.
Edit: I went and actually read that page again. As someone who has actually taken multiple classes there, I can't say I disagree with anything said. If someone I cared about wanted to take a basic handgun class, Frontsight would be my first recomendation. That is my honest opinion of how impressed I was with that class. The rifle class was so-so, but that handgun class is terrific. Out of those testimonials I have actually met six of those people. Three of them were people I took classes with there. Two of them were guys that I used to work with when we all worked for a private ambulance company in Las Vegas: they are both now local area firefighters as am I. The last person is the girl I already mentioned above.

torpid
June 22, 2005, 11:38 PM
Still fascinating.


.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 11:42 PM
I asked the fellow on the phone if I could get a membership for FSA, but he said no way and all but hung up the phone on me! From what you say, it appears the FSA membership is a bonus apparently only offered to the select few, which I assume would include longtime members, employees and families. What I find deceptive about it is the website, which says nothing about being restricted:

http://www.frontsight.com/alaska/

The whole thing seems strange. There are half a million people here, and many times that number in tourists every season. Why not set up FSA with the same rules as the Nevada one? Indeed from the website that's exactly what it sounds like:

"How Does Front Sight Alaska Differ From Front Sight Nevada?
Both Front Sight Alaska and Front Sight Nevada share common themes; world-class training, the best staff in the industry, and flawless service. Both facilities are owned, managed, and operated by the same individuals so quality and consistency are absolutely guaranteed. Our Alaska and Nevada facilities compliment each other well. During the summer months, come to Front Sight Alaska for first-rate training and unbelievable recreation. During the rest of the year come to Front Sight Nevada for world-class training as well as city life, opulent hotels, world-renowned dining, and million-dollar stage shows."

Alaska probably has the most concentrated ownership of firearms this side of Yemen, yet in all of South Central there are only two ranges (not counting the military's range). The little state F&G Rabbit Creek range is tiny and has only a single 100 yard rifle range. The Birchwood range is a lot bigger, but even it can't boast the sort of dynamic shooting environments that a major shooting resort can. You're still limited to traditional range shooting there. There are some courses, but nothing as intense as a Thunder Ranch or Frontsight course. Why go to the considerable expense of setting up a shooting resort here, then tell anyone who calls it's for members only, and no they can't get in with a regular membership?

444
June 22, 2005, 11:45 PM
You know, now that I am thinking about this, I remembered that when I was at Gunsite they had private homes there. Of course Jeff Cooper lives there as well as the current owner and I am pretty sure the operations manager also lives there. I know that one of the instructors I had mentioned that he had been offered the opportunity to live there.

Is that a compound also ?
I am not sure of the correct definition of the word compound.


Just as a guess, I think that they want to keep the classes small (limited number of instructors available) and the season there is short. So, they probably already have enough people to fill all the classes they offer. They don't have the facility or the instructors to offer more classes.
Again, I think that is the reason, but I can't swear to it.
Frontsight Nevada is a long term project with very lofty goals. In the several years they have been here they have only touched the tip of the iceberg of what they want to eventually do. I am sure that Frontsight Alaska will be the same way only it just got started.
If you buy into the sales pitch, they are paying for all this out of pocket. They are not financing any of it. So, this stuff is going to take time and a lot of money.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2005, 11:48 PM
I see nothing wrong with the word "compound." I'm building one myself. To me it just means a place with a fence and multiple buildings that will be a good place to hunker down when the zombies rise. It should also have a little hut with a shortwave radio and assorted communication equipment, it's own power supply, and provisions.

Just as a guess, I think that they want to keep the classes small (limited number of instructors available) and the season there is short. So, they probably already have enough people to fill all the classes they offer. They don't have the facility or the instructors to offer more classes.

That may well be the case. But if so why don't they just say that on their website? It doesn't do any good for their image to put locals through rude telephone conversations. And while we may be unwashed--they ARE operating on our turf and the active shooting community here draws a lot more water than in most states. In fact it includes the lion's share of the state legislature.

444
June 22, 2005, 11:52 PM
Ok, that is your definition of the word.

I personally have a hard time describing a gated community with multimillion dollar private homes inhabited by extremly successful people (the lots are something like 500k-that is just for a bare piece of desert with no house and no utilities), schools, stores, parks etc: a compound just because the owners own guns.

But, I also live in a gated community. My house is more modest but I do have guns.
I am sure the media would call it a compound.

KaceCoyote
June 22, 2005, 11:54 PM
Though I'm all for folks having fredom of religion, I get leery when we talk about gated communities based upon religion. Tolerance goes both ways if you ask me. I'm more than happy to be tolerant of another individual's beliefs and religion save where it in any way endangers or discriminates against others. Allow me an example..

Lets say the Pink pistols, started a training school. Great, wonderful. However, if we begin to talk about "gay only!" gated communities. I begin to worry, same for "Gay only" arms training schools.

Now if we inserted Race, the ACLU would explode.

444
June 22, 2005, 11:57 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Ok, where in the hell did anyone say ANYTHING about a gated communities based upon religion ????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Just curious.



Why is it anyone elses' business if someone wants to start a gay only firearms training faciltiy ? Why is it anyone elses business if someone wants to start a gay community ?
Who are you to tell them what they can or can't do with their own property ?
Why do you feel that you have some right to demand to be trained at a private facility where you are not welcome ?

I bet any housing development in Las Vegas where the houses cost over 300k is gated.
So What ?

hillbilly
June 23, 2005, 12:01 AM
Okay 444....lemme guess.....

You work at FrontSight or something?

Are you actually Ignatius Piazza?

Just curious, as you seem all worked up over this.

I must say I find it curious that such a facility would open up in Alaska and apparently not welcome any inquiries into attending it.

I find it curious that one apparently has to belong to the super-secret Front Sight cool-kids club to go to Front Sight Alaska, and apparently folks who actually live in Alaska aren't welcome.

Call me crazy, but that just sounds downright weird.

hillbilly

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 12:04 AM
Not just weird, it's bad for business. Telling me to take a hike might not have many ramifications. But I know some very active shooters here who, if put through the telephone call I went through, could make serious trouble for the resort. It would be better for the facility to either be open and up-front about being a closed facility or open itself up. But pretending to be open, then claiming to be closed to all but an elite, is going to make people mad. It made me mad.

hillbilly
June 23, 2005, 12:04 AM
Here's the link for the very exclusive Front Sight Alaska....


http://www.frontsight.com/Alaska/

444
June 23, 2005, 12:07 AM
And if you find it weird, that makes it bad ?


You will notice that I get worked up over a number of topics on this board. They all have one thing in common. Most of the comments are posted by people with no first hand experience with the subject being discussed. Instead they speculate, guess, and pass on rumors. I think this is a shame. But, the biggest shame of it all is the human trait of automatically buying into the speculation and rumor and ignoring the people with actual first hand experience because it doesn't sound as good as the rumors.
Check out one of the many threads about Wolf ammo. Another subject I usually weigh in on. I have fired well over 10 thousand rounds of wolf ammo in .223 out of AR15s. When I read the BS written by people who have never fired a single round of it, I get frustrated. This subject is no different. These people have never set foot on the property. They have never taken a class there. Yet they post BS about religion, scams, tax evasion etc. And they don't know anything about it at all. But, in the next thread on the subject, these same rumors will be repeated again by someone who read this thread.

No, I work full time as a firefighter/paramedic in Las Vegas. I have worked as a full time paramedic since 1984.



Please show me where they claimed to be an "open facility". Did they contact you and turn you down or did you contact them ? Where does it say that Alaska residents arn't welcome ?
See, this is the BS I am talking about.

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 12:11 AM
This thread was started by a person (me) who wanted to have first-hand experiences, specifically with the 2-day handgun course, but was told to take a hike. I have to say that's the first time I've been told to take my money elsewhere, so it threw me for a loop. But at this point I'm going to take them up on their offer and seek my training elsewhere.

444
June 23, 2005, 12:15 AM
"I find it curious that one apparently has to belong to the super-secret Front Sight cool-kids club to go to Front Sight Alaska, and apparently folks who actually live in Alaska aren't welcome."

Why would I get upset about this ?
Everything in this sentence is BS.
There is nothing secret about joining Frontsight. I posted the link already. Nowhere does it say Alaska residents arn't welcome.
Yet this stuff is posted and read by hundreds, if not thousands.

hillbilly
June 23, 2005, 12:22 AM
444........I'm not talking about Wolf ammo here.

I'm talking about Front Sight running a firearms training site in Alaska but apparently going out of their way to turn away potential customers who are interested in taking classes at that Alaskan facility.

I teach handgun courses myself.

I've been doing it for over two years now.

I don't know about Front Site, but I make it my policy to tell as many people as I can about my CCW classes, and be very polite to any and all potential customers, because I have discovered that being polite increases the chances those folks spend actual money to take my classes.

Unlike Front Sight Alaska, I actually want folks to come to my classes. I don't require folks to be part of some sort of elite group before they take my classes. All I ask is that they be at least 21 years old, and able to legally own a firearm, and that's only for the CCW courses. I'll teach folks under 21 other courses, if they so desire.

If Front Sight wants to advertise all these super-cool courses at their Alaska facility, only to turn away potential customers, that's their choice.

It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I wonder why Front Sight would go to all the cost and expense of setting up such a facility, and then turn away customers.

So far, nobody has offered a reason that makes any actual, real-world sense as to why.

So, 444, why do you think Front Sight would go to the trouble of setting up "Front Sight Alaska" with all these cool-sounding courses, with a website that advertises these courses, and actually invites people to come to the facility and take the courses, only to be rude to potential customers, and apparently only accept the business of folks who apparently belong to some sort of Front Sight "cool kids club?"

hillbilly

cracked butt
June 23, 2005, 12:26 AM
You have to be a member of the 'headspace pistols with a piece of fired brass' religeon to use the facilities :neener:

TarpleyG
June 23, 2005, 12:32 AM
Nah...if 444 was Piazza, he would have threatened to sue us all by now for slander. Seems to be his standard MO that can be attested to by a friend of mine. Think we found a sore spot for 444. Sorry. Geez, we'll move along and find something else to talk about.

Greg

444
June 23, 2005, 12:35 AM
Ok, just for the record I realize I am wasting my time but it is too late for me to get into anything else before I go to bed.

I am a member of a local gun club here in Las Vegas named Desert Sportsman's. If I want to use their facility, I have to be a member. I had to be a member of the NRA to join and had to pay a fee to become a member. I don't really see anything wrong with this. This isn't a public range. It is a private range. I can shoot on that range and you can't. The reason isn't because of your religion. It isn't because you live in a state we don't like. It isn't because it is a "cool kids club". It is because I am a member and you are not. You want to become a member ? Go right ahead, there is nothing stopping you. But until you join, you won't get the combination to the lock on the gate.
Ok, Frontsight opens a facility in Alaska. They don't advertise it to the public unless you go to their webpage. They offer classes and other stuff there to their members. You can't go because you are not a member. Do you want to become a member ? Go right ahead, there is nothing stopping you. But until you join, you won't be able to go. They arn't excluding anyone willing to pay for their membership. It doesn't matter if you live in Alaska. It doesn't matter what religion you are. It doesn't matter what your sexual preference is. All you have to do is pay.
I am not sure what is so weird about this :confused:


I think I covered my answer to your question in an earlier post:
"Just as a guess, I think that they want to keep the classes small (limited number of instructors available) and the season there is short. So, they probably already have enough people to fill all the classes they offer. They don't have the facility or the instructors to offer more classes.
Again, I think that is the reason, but I can't swear to it.
Frontsight Nevada is a long term project with very lofty goals. In the several years they have been here they have only touched the tip of the iceberg of what they want to eventually do. I am sure that Frontsight Alaska will be the same way only it just got started.
If you buy into the sales pitch, they are paying for all this out of pocket. They are not financing any of it. So, this stuff is going to take time and a lot of money."
For all I know, Frontsight had the opportunity to buy property up there. They figured that the price was only going to go up, so they wanted to buy now. They financed the deal by charging their current members a fee that premitted them to go to Frontsight Alaska. Maybe they have big plans for it in the future but right now, they are doing all they are capable of doing and aren't seeking new business because they can't provide the service.
I don't know, this is all a guess.
I also don't know why this would result in them being flammed on the internet though.
Let's say I am right. Let me put you in their shoes. You teach CCW classes. You advertise heavily. You start getting hundreds of people every week that want to take the class. You don't have the time, the instructors, or the facility to teach that many people. Eventually you will have to turn people away. Some of them might get pissed. Some of them might post on the internet that you are a jerk. Is this true ? No, but it will be posted anyway and a lot of people will believe it.

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 12:52 AM
444--I was told I COULD NOT get a membership that would allow me to attend FSA. I have memberships at other ranges, so the concept isn't new to me. What is new to me is being told to take a hike by a company pretending to offer gun classes here. It doesn't sit well with me, and it will not be forgotten.

444
June 23, 2005, 01:00 AM
First of all, Frontsight itself is not some kind of secret organization. As far as I konw, anyone with money and the ability to pass the background check can join. By the way, you have to pass a background check and pay for a background check every year if you are taking classes every year.
Ok, again, I am just speculating on all of this.
But, again, let's say my guess is right.
They (Frontsight Alaska) have a limited number of intructors, they have a limited number of classes, they have a limited amount of time, they have a limited facility. The facility only opened recently. So they estimate how many students they can handle. They sell that many memeberships. And that is all.
Maybe it isn't a grand conspiracy. Maybe I can't buy one either (I haven't tried: I was offered one several years ago when this was first proposed but not since then). Maybe it has nothing to do with your state of residence, your religion, your sexual preference, or anything other than they just have as many people as they can handle.
Again, I don't know. BUT, I don't think they are picking on you, or Alaska residents and I don't think this is all some kind of conspiracy.

To go back to my earlier post: I have been a member of Desert Sportsmans for over 10 years. At one point they decided that they had enough members and stopped making new members. They established a waiting list. When someone didn't renew or seomeone died, they had an opening. There was no need to flame them on-line. The explanation was simple. It wasn't that they didn't want you. It was just that they were trying to ensure that the members they had, that had been members for years, that had paid and all that could enjoy the facility.

Really. Let's come down to earth here for a moment. If I was trying to go to the Steeler game and it was sold out, I would just accept that. They only have so many seats and they sold tickets for all of them. They are not selling me a ticket just because they don't have any more. It isn't because they hate me. It isn't because they don't like the cut of my gib. They just don't have any more seats.
Could it be that simple ? Or does it have to be a personal attrack on you ?

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 01:10 AM
if you tried to go to the steelers game and they said "No" and gave you no reason why you couldnt..and you noticed all the people at the park that day were lets say...Jewish. Would you suspect something might be up 444?

Akusp
June 23, 2005, 01:17 AM
Maybe they don't want Alaskans to see that they interpret our hunting and fishing laws the way many outsiders do. Any way they darn well want to. Money talks right?

444
June 23, 2005, 01:17 AM
Well, I am not sure that I could recognize that they were all Jewish by sight. But if I noticed that they all had a ticket and I didn't, it wouldn't surprise me that I couldn't get in and they could. But I guess that doesn't satisfy the tin foil hat club.

I am also not sure what this has to do with the current discussion. But since you brought up something about religious discrimination twice, please explain to the rest of us what you are talking about.

I am also really curious how you seem to know who can go and who can't. We know ONE guy that can't. Although we don't really know the reason.

I know.

Let's wildly speculate then pick the most dramatic and damaging senario and say it's true. :scrutiny:
And if it damages their credibility in the proecess, that is their problem.

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 01:20 AM
Just giving examples here 444. Religion is something folks can easily relate to.

444
June 23, 2005, 01:23 AM
Ok, it also sounds way more dramatic than simply explaining it by saying people who don't have a membership can't go. But, the truth isn't exciting or worth posting about on-line. And, if we just stuck to reality a lot of lawyers would be out of a job.

Don Gwinn
June 23, 2005, 01:24 AM
Ok, it also sounds way more dramatic than simply explaining it by saying people who don't have a membership can't go and aren't allowed to join. But, the truth isn't exciting or worth posting about on-line. And, if we just stuck to reality a lot of lawyers would be out of a job.

I fixed it for you. No need to thank me. :D

444, what's so complicated here? You keep telling him all he has to do is pay up and join Frontsight.

Frontsight's official representative, the guy they PAY to answer the phone, told him to take a hike! He asked how to join, and they told him not to bother.

So you say, "just join, what are you so worked up for?"

But Frontsight says "We aren't interested in having you join. Forget it."

And your response is what? "Just join, what are you so worked up for?"

:scrutiny:
The whole thing is surely a puzzle, but if there were no senseless drama, you couldn't really call the people involved professional shooting instructors.
"University politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so insignificant."
--Henry Kissinger



(Hey, look, I made a Pax!)

444
June 23, 2005, 01:29 AM
What makes it more complicated is the implication that this is all based on some conspiracy theory. What makes it complicated is that without any knowlege what so ever about the reason for any of this, a whole lot of people are more than willing to drag it through the mud.

As I have mentioned before, this is only the high road when we are dealing with certain subjects or certain persons. But, other people and other subjects are open game. This is one of those subjects.

As has been said many times before, if we all agreed, what would we talk about ?
How about this, you guys are right. It is discrimination. It is all a deep dark conspiracy.
Happy now ?

The truth is out there. Very little of it is on this board however.

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 01:33 AM
444 isnt happy because we dont agree that anyone should have the ability to discriminate against anyone for any reason.

What do I think as a matter of opinion? I'm thinking that frontsite has ties to Scientology, which in and of itself isnt a bad thing. However, from the information at hand it looks like the possibility that Frontsite is showing a strong preference for individuals of a specific religion. Do I have proof, naw this is merely an opinion.

444
June 23, 2005, 01:36 AM
So the fact that I have a membership there and the fact that I had the opportunity to buy into Frontsight Alaska means I am a scientologist ?
Better yet, I must have missed the part where they asked these two guys what religion they practiced before they told them they couldn't go. It seems like they would have mentioned that if it happened. But you seem to know and I don't.

Don, while you are fixing posts, please correct the spelling of Frontsight. It is that thing on the end of your barrel. A couple of the experts on the subject seem to have missed that.

Strings
June 23, 2005, 01:39 AM
444: forget about the people suggesting connections to Scientology, Dianetics, Hollow Earth, little green men, and Karl Rove. Stick to just the facts:

-FS opened a training facility in Alaska, and advertised it on their website
-a THR member in Alaska called, and asked about attending classes, only to be told "you have to be a FS member
-said THRer said "ok... how do I join FS?"
-FS's paid mouthpiece (operator) answered "you don't: no Alaska residents"

Now, if I missed something in the first post, someone correct me. But that DOES seem fishy, not to mention bad business...

spacemanspiff
June 23, 2005, 01:41 AM
444, heres my take on this, and please, correct me if i'm mistaken.

the whole thing smacks of elitism. i'm not good enough to spend my hard earned money with them because i havent been to FSN.
the alaskan attitude towards the shooting sports and 'real world training' is very simple. our ranges dont charge arms/legs to be members. the trainers that live up here offer affordable courses.
up here it is expected that shooters know what they are doing, because by and large, they do.

in looking at FSA's webpage i don't honestly get the feeling that i would learn a lot from them. for the amount of money they are talking about or has been hinted at, what figure did you mention? $2,000? and thats not counting a persons airfare, lodging, etc? for $2,000 i'll go to Jim West's lodge, fish as much as my arms can handle and get some good instruction from a renowned hunter and gunsmith.

the FSA webpage gives the idea that anyone can call them up and get on the list for their courses.
the attitude of the persons that have been spoken to by myself as well as other THR members indicates that they don't want to be bothered with helping other shooters out. were supposed to be on the same team here. i would think that if they had slots open for their courses they would be more than happy to accept the money of non-members. and in looking at their schedule they have stuff going on for the next two months. dont tell me they have all the slots filled on every one of those courses because that aint the case.

i could not care less about whether or not FS is some kind of cult. sure, its eye-brow-rising to hear about what some people say about them, but what difference does it make? i worked briefly for some door-to-door sales company that was supposedly a cult. yeah they had weird 'rules' and guidelines but whats the big deal?

as far as the use of the word 'compound' is concerned, i'd think very few people actually equate it with the mental picture of Waco's compound being torched.


btw, do you have any idea just how lucrative it would be for FS to open up a full facility here thats open to the public? if they built a lodge/restaurant on their property and just opened for the summer they'd be turning a profit by year two, not year five like most other businesses.
if they can afford to keep $500k basic properties down in FSN they can surely afford to expand operations here and be able to afford $1,000,000 basic land plots down south.

444
June 23, 2005, 01:48 AM
I realize that I am on thin ice here.
I also realize that dispite anything else on this thread I will be accused of making a personal attack.
But...................


That sounds fishy to me also and has from the beginning. The reason it sounds fishy to me is because I don't believe it. I think he misunderstood the person on the phone. I am sure there are members of Frontsight that are residents of Alaska right now. I am equally sure that if a resident of Alaska tried to join Frontsight itself they would be welcomed with open arms. It wouldn't surprise me if they said he couldn't train in Alaska. But I would bet my next paycheck that if he called and just wanted to join Frontsight he could.
I wasn't on the phone and I didn't hear what was said.
Maybe I am completely wrong and this school that is known internationally and has hosted students from all over the world told him that. It might be that out of the thousands of memberships in Frontsight that they specifically discriminate against Alaskans. Anything is possible. Dispite the fact that several hundred people every weekend attend classes there, they might have it in for this guy, I don't know. Maybe they have some kind of scanner that tells them what religion people practice when you call them on the phone ? Hey, I am probably all wet. After all, none of this sounds the least bit crazy to you guys, so I am probably wrong.
I apoligize for discussing it.
I will only agree with people from now on.
Down with the oppressors. Power to the people.

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 02:08 AM
I invited everyone here to call the number and ask if they can register for one of the listed classes at FSA. Spiff kindly did, and it appears he got the same rude response I got.

I never said I could not join Frontsight Nevada. I suppose I could, but what's the point? I will never in my life set foot in a place that hot, certainly not if I can help it. I was told that I COULD NOT join Frontsight Alaska or attend courses there, in spite of what the website implies. I was told that FSA was limited to special members, presumably from Nevada (or whatever).

Please, I invite other people to call up and ask to register for a FSA course. See what they say.

No_Brakes23
June 23, 2005, 02:11 AM
:scrutiny:
Think twice, post once. -Justin

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 02:28 AM
the whole thing smacks of elitism. i'm not good enough to spend my hard earned money with them because i havent been to FSN.

That's my feeling as well. I suspect this is something of a culture clash between the Alaskan gun culture and the far more elitist, upper-class gun culture of southern [expletive deleted]. Spiff is right--gun ownership here is much more egalitarian, both because of our liberal gun laws and long standing traditions. To the Frontsight people it may seem natural to come up here and hunker down, refusing to admit anyone they don't already know. Secrecy and elitism go hand in glove, since I suspect a fair number of their clients don't want their association with firearms widely known. With celebs coming up to Alaska for a high-priced hunting, fishing and shooting trip, FSA can't risk admitting Spiff or me. We might say hello or want to shake hands. Worse yet, we might disagree with the Outside instructor on local matters. We might even come wearing carhartts overalls and muddy boots.

The fact that 444 mentioned (several times) the outrageous value of the houses at FS Nevada and the high cost of membership as if it were a GOOD thing tells me he's operating out of a totally different playbook than shooters in this state.

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 02:30 AM
The fact that 444 mentioned (several times) the outrageous value of the houses at FS Nevada and the high cost of membership as if it were a GOOD thing tells me he's operating out of a totally different playbook than shooters in this state.


Likewise..

No_Brakes23
June 23, 2005, 02:47 AM
Think twice, post once. -Justin

I didn't realize obviously tongue-in-cheek comments were verboten here.

Lame.

This thread has already turned into a circus anyway...

Nevertheless, point taken.

Justin
June 23, 2005, 02:55 AM
I will note a couple of things:

1)It's getting mighty hot in here, but I'm not seeing much light.

2) Ignatius Piazza and Front Site have a history of wierd behavior. A couple of years ago Glocktalk and The Firing Line were threatened with legal action (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138756&page=1&pp=25&highlight=ignatius) by lawyers affiliated with Front Site.

For the short version: The Light of Reason Blog Entry on Front Sight suing Dinah Hseih and threatening action against TFL and Glock Talk (http://www.light-of-reason.blogspot.com/2002_11_03_light-of-reason_archive.html#84128115)

c_yeager
June 23, 2005, 03:12 AM
OK, heres an easy question.

We have about 20,000 members here, most of them pretty heavily involved in the shooting sports and firearms training. We also post at other forums and know plenty of other shooters.

Has anyone here EVER set foot in this Alaska facility? Does anyone here even know a nother person who has set foot in the Alaska facility?

If noone can answere a "yes" to those questions, that is QUITE an odd circumstance, no?

Jim Diver
June 23, 2005, 03:22 AM
Just more high wierdness out of the Nevada desert....

Hokey background checks, threats of lawsuits, harassing boards....

Something stinks at FS...

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 03:52 AM
TFL had a GREAT thread on FS, Scientology and all sorts of wierdness.

TheEgg
June 23, 2005, 12:48 PM
I have never been to any FS facilities, but I do have a question of 444 or any other members.

What has actually been built out there? I hear all these stories about $500,000 lots -- has anyone actually built a house out there? I looked through the web site and the brochure, and nowhere do I find any pictures of the facilities, other than the ranges and what looks like a pre-fab or two. Maybe I just missed them?

If this operation has been going on for years, what tangible results in the way of a gated, upscale, community are there?

Honest questions -- I have no axe to grind here.

rcm
June 23, 2005, 01:02 PM
If any of you guys are interested, I recieved a DVD that explains thier whole operation. Shows training facilities, housing, mess, etc.

If this has already been offered sorry. BTW it came unsolicited in the NRA affiliate business package. I'll send it to anybody who wants.

Rick

odysseus
June 23, 2005, 02:02 PM
Aside from all this jabbing; it really should be said that the instructors there and who have been there before are high quality people. And some of the people you meet there as other students are also great. And as a student the experience and what you learn there can be invaluable.

thereisnospoon
June 23, 2005, 02:07 PM
Isn't there another weird place out there in the Nevada Dessert, like Area 51 or something??

Do you have to wear a tinfoil hat during the training classes? :neener:

Has anyone who has actually posted anything in this thread ever been to FS, because I was planning on taking some classes there in the near future, but now am worried about the whole thing??? :uhoh:

Someone who has actually been there please relate their experience. :scrutiny:

Thanks,

spacemanspiff
June 23, 2005, 02:12 PM
justin i hope this thread can remain open, at least until some simple answers are obtained. some of us sincerely want to know why our money isnt good enough for FSA. the religious aspect means little to us alaskans.

Justin
June 23, 2005, 02:15 PM
spiff-

I've got no problem leaving it open, in fact, I'd be curious to see an answer myself. That will, however, be dependent upon the general tone of the thread, which has gotten somewhat antagonistic.

pax
June 23, 2005, 02:19 PM
spoon ~

See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=135445 and http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=86604

Probably lots of others -- I used search parameters "Frontsight" and limited it to the S&T forum which is where most class reviews end up.

pax

Spreadfire Arms
June 23, 2005, 02:27 PM
444 wrote:

First of all, I love the use of the word compound. This is normally a word used by the liberal news media to describe anyone's home that owns a gun. I see now that gun owners are using the same term to describe other gun owners when they are attempting to say something dramatic.
i wouldn't call Front Sight a "country club".....but then again i've never been there.

"they have a gated community.........compound".
I haven't been there for over a year, but the last time I was there, this was not true. If your friend was there last year, I know he was mistaken. They are planning on having a gated community but that phase of construction wasn't even started the last time I was there.
you'd have to take that up with him. i've never been there, i lived in Green Valley and did not have the urge to drive there to even visit them. i once emailed Ignatius Piazza and he was apathetic to me even showing up at best. i took that as #1) i didn't have enough money or #2) they didn't want automatic weapons on their range or #3) they had a better offer or #4) i dont know.

"they encouraged him to move his family into the compound."
I am sure they did. As I recall, the lots were for the ...................... compound started somewhere in the range of 1/2 million dollars. Who knows, maybe a groundskeeper makes that kind of money ? They knew what they were paying him; right ? In any case, call Frontsight Nevada and tell them you are inquiring about a residential lot and see what they cost. Wait, make sure you tell them you want one in the compound.
they told him they would put him up in one of the trailers that was modified for living quarters for the lowly employees basically. i suppose you are going to say they didn't have those there either because you know everything there is to know about Front Sight and you didn't see them thus they didn't exist.

"they would not allow him to be armed until he took some of their courses"
So your buddy applied for a job as groundskeeper, and balked at the idea that he should be trained if he wanted to do armed security. Ok.
I have to agree that making him pay for the class is pretty lame. I know this is true because their instructors have to pay for classes also. I know they get continuing education, but if they want to just take a class for fun, they have to pay for it.
no, read what i wrote. he balked at the idea that they were doing this to basically have him work for nothing while supporting a child as a single parent. i suppose you like working for Las Vegas Fire Dept. so much you'd work for free if they gave you classes on how to put out a fire? you have bills to pay too.

What this so called compound actually is going to be is a town made up entirely of gun owners. Actually, not just gun owners, but gun owners who also dig taking classes as well as owning guns. This community is extremly high end and expensive. When you buy the lot you are actually buying their Platnum membership which entitles you to take any Frontsight course and any Frontsight course that will ever be offered as many times as you want. To give you an idea of what this membership costs, one of the details is that you can pass the membership upon your death in your will. The membership also includes a lot in the community. So, this "compound" will be inhabited by very well off professional people.
perhaps. i just don't see people forking 1/2 a million over for people who shoot so close to their houses that an accidental discharge or stray bullet could kill someone.

ClonaKilty
June 23, 2005, 02:54 PM
[takes deep breath, exhales slowly] I may kick myself for doing this, but here goes.

First the disclaimers:
I go to FS a lot. I will not defend all of FS's business practices because I believe they can be poor (though the training is outstanding). I have no other connection to FS: I do not work for them nor am I in any way compensated by them. I am certainly not any kind of spokesman for them, nor can I read the minds of the owners/operators and explain why they do what they do. Nor, again, will I defend their actions.

Cosmoline was treated very poorly, and I can attest that I -- a MEMBER -- have had the same poor treatment in the past. I have voiced my displeasure of this with the owner and will take further steps.

OK with that out of the way, let me present what I think is going on. Again, I am not defending FS, just trying to give some cool, rational thought based on my knowledge of how the membership thing works at FS:

To be a member of FS Alaska, you do indeed have to first be a member of FS Nevada (yes I realize Cosmoline was told he couldn't be a member, bear with me here). You can then "upgrade" to an Alaskan membership. And yes, I know people who have such memberships and have indeed been to FrontSight Alaska, and enjoyed it tremendously.

As to why Cosmo was told he couldn't be a member, here is my guess: FS used to offer its memberships to the public. It has since stopped doing so, but still offers memberships that existing members want to sell to anyone. It is somewhat similar to a country club that has a waiting list, but of course FS has no gender, race, or religious restrictions like country clubs have. Now, why on Earth the FS 800-number rep. didn't tell Cosmo this -- and didn't try to sell an existing membership -- I can't fathom and won't try, because it is certainly in FS's best interests to sell them.

So, as lame as it may sound, it appears to be a case of a really bad phone rep doing a disservice to his company. Feel free to call or email FS and voice your displeasure about this.

Now, as for the apparent "exclusivity" and being in Alaska where Cosmoline says the gun culture is more egalitarian: well again I am not going to defend their business decisions; they may indeed be alienating some good Alaskan customers. If you view the DVD that rcm offered, you will see that one of FS's missions is to have high profile people train there and get to know the regular American gunowner. Like I said, they may be shooting themselves in the foot with their business practices, but they really do want to do that.

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.

In summary: it is fair to criticize FS for its high prices. It is fair and worthwhile to read the history of Piazza's involvement with Scientology and the FS lawsuits with GlockTalk and any others. It may even be fair to question why I continue to go there.

But it is categorically unfair and unfounded to claim FS is some kind of religious or other extremist "cult" or "compound," or to speculate -- without having been there -- that the sites "don't exist."

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 03:03 PM
Thanks for that post. I think I'm getting a better picture of the situation now. Frankly rather than go through any more trouble I'm just going to renew my $120 yearly membership at Birchwood, where I can get a range all to myself on the weekdays and nobody worries about my carhartts.

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.

You're right about that, and it's a good point. It's well known among locals that these "lodges" are little more than a clever means of fleecing outside hunters with more bucks than brains. I really don't think that's Frontsight's goal, and I wanted to see what their courses were like. I have no interest in paying tens of thousands to have some idiot try to teach me to hunt in my own back yard, so my exclusion from those places doesn't bug me much.

Here's a good example--I actually found an outfit a few years ago that was offering a month on a trap line in the middle of winter for the mere price of $11,000. For that you'd "get" to freeze your behind off and engage in the brutal work of checking a forty mile line over and over and over again. And they weren't offering to pay YOU $11,000. No, you were supposed to pay THEM :D I don't know if anyone was crazy enough to fall for it.

Werewolf
June 23, 2005, 03:09 PM
TFL had a GREAT thread on FS, Scientology and all sorts of wierdnessYep... I just read that entire thread - like 9 pages worth. 444 was defending FS in it too.

[edit]The lawsuit against that Dana person has it seems been resolved (the LV court case web registry hasn't been updated to reflect that). Dana won.

I thought it was interesting that a couple of guys who had been trained at FS thought the training was absolutely great on the one hand but left feeling rather funny about the way it was presented on the other. They talked more about a cult of personality built around the pizza guy than scientology. One guy was even a first family member.

[dons tin foil hat] :D

Front Sight - building an army(?) made of indoctrinated members, living at FS for the coming revolution....

Muhahahaha

[removes tin foil hat] :D

EDITED: To update lawsuit status

spacemanspiff
June 23, 2005, 03:35 PM
i appreciate your input clonakilty.

you will see that one of FS's missions is to have high profile people train there and get to know the regular American gunowner
now isnt that statement just a little bit contradictary? i can understand wanting to cater to the 'high profile' peeps. but how will they get to know the nitty-gritty-american-gunowner if the NGAG is not a member of FSN?

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.
to second cosmo's comments on this, about the closest thing we have is lodges/guides that charge arms and legs because tourists will pay it. has nothing to do with excluding alaskans from it, in fact, a standing joke all around alaska whenever we encounter an 'indigenous' person selling baleen or ivory or bone or wood craftwork is 'come on now. i'm an alaskan. whats the REAL price?'

just about everything a guide/lodge provides for tourists (often uttered to sound a bit like 'terrorist') can be had experienced through friends/family of local residents. sure i could spend $5,000 to spend a week down in kodiak fishing for salmon/halibut, or i could just buy a plane ticket to kodiak and have my cousins pick me up in their skiff, and spend a week working halibut skate lines and harvesting out of their subsistence seines for at most $500. or i could pay the tens of thousands of dollars to go hunt grizzly with a guide, or hook up with some buddies and do it for the cost of the tags, and contribute to the cost of the gas/food.

so how does this relate to what FS offers? well sure i could pony up the thousands of dollars to join FSN, travel down there, take their prerequisite courses, and then come back up here and pay more thousands of dollars to attend their courses at FSA. or FSA could change their structure and start getting my money right away by opening up for membership as they hint they do on their website.

i'd feel better if FS was just simply honest and told us 'We're better than you, always have been, always will be, so go pound sand.' i can't get too offended over 100% honesty.

SteveS
June 23, 2005, 04:06 PM
just about everything a guide/lodge provides for tourists (often uttered to sound a bit like 'terrorist') can be had experienced through friends/family of local residents. sure i could spend $5,000 to spend a week down in kodiak fishing for salmon/halibut, or i could just buy a plane ticket to kodiak and have my cousins pick me up in their skiff, and spend a week working halibut skate lines and harvesting out of their subsistence seines for at most $500. or i could pay the tens of thousands of dollars to go hunt grizzly with a guide, or hook up with some buddies and do it for the cost of the tags, and contribute to the cost of the gas/food.

I really wanted to hunt Alaska, but not if I am just going to get fleeced.

TFL had a GREAT thread on FS, Scientology and all sorts of wierdness.

It took me an hour to get through it, but it was worth it. Very interesting.

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 04:22 PM
I really wanted to hunt Alaska, but not if I am just going to get fleeced.

You don't have to get fleeced. There are a few animals that must be hunted with a guide for out-of-state license holders--Brown bear, sheep and goat. Otherwise no guide is needed. There are some great flying services that will scout out a location and drop you off, then pick you up a week or so later. There are also some good deals on boat hunts where you do a combination of fishing and spotting from the boat, then get dropped off to get your bear or deer. Considering the amount of meat you can get between the game and the fish, these can be very cost effective. I remember one meat boat trip out of Seward a few years back where we all got several hundred pounds apiece in fish alone. Those waters are thick with fish.

CAPTAIN MIKE
June 23, 2005, 10:06 PM
Front Sights main facility is located near Las Vegas. I'm not a member (yet) but the classes I've attended there have been OUTSTANDING. Detailed and very specific high quality instruction was what I received both times, and I was most impressed.

Front Sight offers about 5 or 6 different layers of Memberships. The facility in Alaska, as far as I know, is restricted to members. So what? If you'd like to train at the Alaska facility, sign up for a Copper (or higher level) membership. Most members and non-members who take classes do so at the main facility near Las Vegas.

Every time I've dealt with them, they've been very professional and nobody has ever pulled any Scientology or alien horsedung on me. They are only interested in improving their facility, conducting high quality classes, and gaining new First Family members at the various levels. If they want - as a private membership organization - to restrict access to their Alaska facility to "members only" that's fine and is no different than some athletic clubs and golf country clubs.

Cosmoline
June 23, 2005, 10:20 PM
Again, I was told that getting a membership (which in itself is extremely expensive) would only get me into Nevada FS. NOT FSA.

Yes, they are allowed to be elite and seal themselves off. But they're not doing themselves or the shooting sports any favors.

CAPTAIN MIKE
June 23, 2005, 10:43 PM
Oh well, no sense trying to be logical. Some people just want to be contrary and point fingers and keep on arguing, no matter what you say and no matter how logical. I used to have an ex-wife like that once.

Cosmoline, if you want to TRAIN with Front Sight (at their main facility) you don't have to be a member. The courses are not cheap, but the quality of both the content and the close detailed precise professional instruction received is well worth the cost. I wish I could afford a lifetime membership but I can't so, just like any other non-member, I'll train in those classes I can afford.

My own hunting experiences don't require any "Steenking Memberships". There are plenty of great hunting experiences to be had both in Alaska and beyond it without being a member.

If they want to restrict access to their private property for whatever reason to just certain memberships, that's okay too. Don't worry about it. There are other more important things in life to focus on. Good Luck to you Sir, and Be Safe.

KaceCoyote
June 23, 2005, 10:49 PM
Mike, Neither cosmoline or Spiff are being allowed to attend classes at FSA irreguardless of cash.

Cosmoline
June 24, 2005, 12:13 AM
That's right--they list the courses with prices and it APPEARS as if I could just pay and attend, but I was told on the phone that only select members were allowed to go to FSA, and I COULD NOT become such a member. At most I could go to FSN.

I HAD made up my mind to attend a course, but they don't want me there so to hell with them.

Harry Tuttle
June 24, 2005, 12:14 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=104040

http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/090104/new_090104new001001.shtml

Cosmoline
June 24, 2005, 12:28 AM
Though Front Sight is a private establishment, people need not become members to receive weapons training there. But classes are not cheap. Firearms training costs $300 per day, and classes are either two or four days in length.

I remember reading this article last year. Either they were lying to the Clarion, or they were lying on the phone to me. I've just about had it with these people.

Strings
June 24, 2005, 01:33 AM
Ummm... I have to ask: are people interested in defending FS NOT reading the original post? Nothing mentioned about any kind of conspiracy there...

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