Man with grenade fatally shot at Seattle courthouse


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Cesiumsponge
June 21, 2005, 06:47 PM
Wow.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/4635208/detail.html

Anyone catch the story yesterday on how a Silverdale man had an (not known at the time) inert hand grenade at a Seattle court and was shot to death by police? I donít have any grudges with the police since they did the right thing given the situation.

However I didnít know how badly the media could spin stories until I found out the person who was shot was Perry Manley. One news story was even titled ďDeadbeat Dad Shot In Seattle CourthouseĒ even though Manley paid child support until his unemployment and wasnít a deadbeat.

I suppose they canít get the other side of the story since he is no longer alive. The news sources paint him as an obsessive psycho bad guy. However, I have heard and seen the guy talk over the years and he is one of the largest post-divorce fatherís rights activists and was against heavily gender-biased child support laws. Despite the fact that deadbeat mothers are actually HIGHER per capita than deadbeat fathers (57% of mothers ordered to pay child support actually pay while 68% of fathers who are ordered to pay, pay). He [Manley] (and other fatherís rights advocacy groups would make efforts to defend fathers who got the shaft in divorce cases.

He was at Safeco Field last year protesting with a sign that read, ďFathers are parents, not paychecksĒ. I also listen to (the highest rated) area radio show and Perry has been a regular guest for several years and spoke his passionate cause in a concise, logical, and reasonable manner. The radio show has dedicated all of today to replaying the recorded interviews and audio clips when he was a guest on the show and taking calls from men in similar positions. Also they are also inviting guests that are close personal friends of Manley, who have painted him in an entirely different light than that portrayed thusfar.

The guy has tried for 15 years to get visitation rights from his ex-wife to his own flesh-and-blood children that never panned out. They doubled his child support payments that amounted to 50% (before taxes) so he could barely live comfortably himself. Alimony and child support is supposed to ďcontinue the life the spouse was accustomed to before the divorce. However the excessively high (in terms of income by the payee) child support and alimony made sure he couldnít continue the life he was accustomed to.

Perry eventually ran out of money after 15 years as a non-custodial parent trying to see his children. Perry eventually tried to take his lawsuit to the federal level. District judge Thomas Zilly denied his lawsuit multiple times and Perry attempted to take action against Judge Zilly by calling his actions treasonous. He actually filed action against Zilly, but somehow Zilly acted as judge on his own action and dismissed his own case.

I saw the ex-wife being interviewed today after the grenade incident and she showed no signs of remorse or emotion regarding her ex-husband. She even had the audacity to claim he was selfish because his suicide by cop came shortly before sonís upcoming birthday and that his daughterís wedding. Oddly enough she, or the articles covering the event, never mentioned that the ex-wife would NOT let him see their children and the last visitation he managed to get was well over half a year ago, and that after the divorce, the mother would put much effort into telling the kids how the father was a deadbeat loser arsehole which was engrained into them at a young age. She even refused to let Perry walk his own daughter down the aisle at the wedding but it was never mentioned in interviews.

There might be one bit of light to shed though. Supposedly one of the area networks (KIRO7) is going to interview the talk show host of the aforementioned radio show and attempt to get a more well-rounded profile on Perry Manley. However from the displays of these quick-to-jump stories, it appears the guy was painted as a whacko.

Iíve heard dozens of stories where men have gotten the short end of the deal in divorce cases involving children. Sadly most of their voices and stories are never heard.

I guess not being able to properly attend the wedding and not being able to catch his sonís birthday, and ending up alone on Fatherís Day was the final straw. I wouldn't have chosen such an action but in his almost two-decade long struggle against "they system", he felt that this act of martyrdom was required as a last ditch effort to exposing his, and thousands of others who are trying to get this very serious problem into the public light. He did this at the ultimate cost of his own life. Sadly, the media has turned it into a one-sided circus.

I canít believe how much of the story isnít being told. Maybe the other side will come out in subsequent interviews and weeks gone by, but I doubt it.

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Old Dog
June 21, 2005, 06:56 PM
Hmm. Good to know some background on Manley. You're correct, the media definitely spun the story to make Manley appear to be a total nutjob. Even KZOK (our local geezer rock station) and the Bob Rivers Show talked about the case this morning; I was amazed to hear the (liberal) hosts in agreement that the cops were justified to shoot Manley. SPD's reaction appears to have been pretty restrained; that's a PD that has taken much heat over the years for some questionable shootings (and lately Taser usage) ...

Henry Bowman
June 22, 2005, 11:04 AM
Thanks for posting this information. Never, NEVER trust the (mainstream) media implicitly.

Still, it appears his last choice was a bad one. Maybe Fathers' Day pushed him over the edge. There had to be a better way to go out and make people notice. Sad. Zilly is an OK federal judge, as they go. My personal experience with him is that he jumps to a conclusion (even with less than all information) and will never reconsider, no matter how wrong he may be.

TimRB
June 22, 2005, 11:15 AM
"You're correct, the media definitely spun the story to make Manley appear to be a total nutjob."

Of course, one should not overlook the possibility that he really *was* a total nutjob. He dressed up in camo, put his will into his backpack, walked into a courthouse, and held police at bay for a half hour or so with a hand grenade until they finally shot him.

Tim

Henry Bowman
June 22, 2005, 12:59 PM
Of course, one should not overlook the possibility that he really *was* a total nutjob. True as well. I found no shortage of them when I lived there. (Some might say one fewer now that I have left. ;) )

Nazirite
June 22, 2005, 01:09 PM
After reading a story like that, it reinforces the idea that marriage ( for me at least) is too risky.
Talk about a modern day Shakespearian tragedy, polices regarding fathers rights need to change in the country. :(

Old Dog
June 22, 2005, 01:15 PM
Well, he may have totally wigged out on his last day drawing breath on this planet, but he evidently was an intelligent man who lived a cause that he (and many others) passionately believed in ...
Of course, one should not overlook the possibility that he really *was* a total nutjob.
There was a pretty balanced article on him in this morning's P-I.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/229506_manleycustody22.html

ReconTech
June 22, 2005, 01:16 PM
Another bozo gone, more Oxygen for those of us who obey the law.

spartacus2002
June 22, 2005, 01:34 PM
Recontech,

I have been thru a nasty divorce involving child custody and visitation that almost ended up as bad as this guy's. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Hopefully you will never go thru something like that -- but if you did, you would certainly change your tune.


Iíve heard dozens of stories where men have gotten the short end of the deal in divorce cases involving children. Sadly most of their voices and stories are never heard.

back in the late 1990s, Virginia decided to have a Task Force On Gender Bias In the Courts. I went to one of the 6 meetings they had where the members solicited input from the public. At my location, we had 1 guy complain that the Judicial Inquiry and Review Commission was worthless, 1 woman said a judge had told her in court she was being cranky and "must be that time of the month," and 15 men stated that they had gotten totally shafted in the family court system because they were men.

Similar testimony occurred at every one of the 6 meetings.

However, the Task Force found there was no bias against men in the family courts. Maybe the fact that the Task Force was TWO-THIRDS WOMEN might have had something to do with their findings.....

ReconTech
June 22, 2005, 02:07 PM
I understand what you are saying Sir, however, I deal with the absolute worse part of society everyday, and simply, I'm tired of people making excuses for people's actions that can hurt or do hurt others.

CentralTexas
June 22, 2005, 02:19 PM
How did they determine it was a live grenade? Why couldn't they have talked or reasoned with him? Did they try hot tea or a back rub before murdering this poor victim????

OOPS, sorry I thought I was a CNN reporter covering the GI shooting the guy acting dead on the floor of a mosque....
CT

TimRB
June 22, 2005, 02:40 PM
"I have been thru a nasty divorce involving child custody and visitation that almost ended up as bad as this guy's."

You can try to turn this into a child custody issue if you want, but it appears to me that he was shot because he threatened people's safety with a hand grenade.

Tim

grimjaw
June 22, 2005, 03:24 PM
After reading a story like that, it reinforces the idea that marriage ( for me at least) is too risky.

I don't know if the original poster's comments makes me think that marriage is risky. However, I do agree that marriage does seem to be hardly worth it nowadays.

I don't know what else could be expected of this situation. I'm actually surprised they didn't act to take him down as soon as they saw the grenade. Approaching government structures with weapons bared is not the best survival tactic in these times.

What result other than suicide by LEO did Manley have in mind? Certainly he couldn't have thought that he'd get the rights he wanted by using force.

jmm

spacemanspiff
June 22, 2005, 04:54 PM
oh my god! i need to get rid of my inert grenade before i get shot up by police!

i'll just throw it in the garbage....no wait, thats what the spooks watching me want me to do. okay, i'll drop it off at the police station.
wait, i can't enter the station armed. and if i walk in holding a 'nade they'll probably give me a few extra holes.
i know, i'll just toss the 'nade through a window or door with a note taped to it explaining myself.

that oughtta work, right?

lunaslide
June 22, 2005, 04:55 PM
My guess is that he had spent over 15 years trying to fight this system and draw attention to it's injustices and in the end, chose a really stupid and ineffective way to do it. But if there were ever a case of the system driving a man to madness, this would be it. It does not excuse his actions, but to not investigate why he was driven to it would be a mistake.
You can try to turn this into a child custody issue if you want, but it appears to me that he was shot because he threatened people's safety with a hand grenade.
Both are true and he doesn't have to turn it into anything. This was a child custody issue. It was also a man being shot for bringing a hand grenade into a public building. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Manly tried to bring the issue of father's rights into public view for years through a variety of approaches. Sadly, he will be most remembered for his last one and the message will likely be lost. It's a desperate situation here and hopefully some good will come out of the attention brought by his insane and dangerous last act.

Cesiumsponge
June 22, 2005, 06:02 PM
One note of detail--the hand grenade was inert. I think some people posting on this thread thought it was a live grenade. It doesn't change the fact there is a perceived threat there and that deadly force was required, but he (Manley) never tried to threaten peoples' lives.

Like I mentioned earlier, the police did what they have to, and it was done properly. The guy was at the end of his financial and emotional rope after a 15 year struggle and felt this was his way of making a final stand; I don't agree with it at all. I'd probably be in pretty sad shape after nearly two decades of financial and emotional ruin. The guy's children were raised by the ex-wife to hate his guts and the last few weeks with the birthdays, weddings, and Fathers Day was likely the thin red line.

I can vouch for this since I was raised in a divorced family and my mom, whom was the custodial parent, spent every spare moment telling me how my father was a worthless liar, an arshole, a deadbeat violent person that didn't want anything to do with us ...none which I believed since I was luckily old enough at the time to see this was never the case, otherwise I'd likely grow up believing this.

My main issue is this last stand he made will be his defining moment and his actions before this moment will be obscured by the public media, and the spin they've put on it is atrocious.

The supposed direct death threat against Judge Zilly was conveniently not elaborated upon. Manley filed a suit against Zilly for being treasonous and mentioned the penalty for treason was death. The result was Zilly sending two US Marshalls into his home without warrant to search it and Zilly dismissing the case against himself.

The guy lost his job and eventually found a new one at a lower salary, but he had to pay the child support payments based off his old salary because by some line of logic, the judge found that "he had the potential to make that kind of money". The articles cite he had to pay a certain amount (varies between which article you read) child support as ordered by the court but he has stated that it was more along the lines of triple those figures given all additional expenses he paid for on top of that for his children. The guy ended up living in a car for a time being since he had no residual money.

There are litterally hours of recorded audio in interviews and discussions of Manley, his friends, and cohorts with a local radio host (BJ Shea). The news stations eventually interviewed Shea and the audio recordings but it ends up as another splinter in the eye because with access to the hours of recorded audio of Manley and someone who knew him personally, the 3 second audio clip they played didn't accomplish anything. Most people will view Manley as another nutjob but anyone who is local and has heard, seen, or knew the guy saw him as someone who was trying to fix a broken system.

People will chose to remember someone's death rather than how they lived. I suppose in the end there is nothing you can do about it. People claiming he was a good man can and might be seen in the same light as those stories where the family of Little Johnny the robber-shot-dead claiming Johnny was a good boy.

DMF
June 22, 2005, 10:58 PM
One note of detail--the hand grenade was inert. I think some people posting on this thread thought it was a live grenade. It doesn't change the fact there is a perceived threat there and that deadly force was required, but he (Manley) never tried to threaten peoples' lives.That is not true that he never threatened any lives. Yes, the grenade was inert, but that was not known until AFTER the shooting. He was threatening people with that grenade, the CSOs, DUSMs, and SPD personnel on scene did try to negotiate with him, but he would not cooperate. Inert grenade or not, the officers acted on the information they knew, and they knew there was a grenade, it was possible it was a live grenade, and he was acting in a threatening manner. They acted based on what they knew at the time. If someone comes after you with a gun, are you going to wait to find out if it's loaded before you take action to save yourself or others? I think not. (reference Tennesse v. Garner, 1985)

Regardless of his background, he ran into a courthouse, tried to circumvent the security, and was threatening people by waving around a grenade. All the factors add up to a case of justified use of deadly force to stop the threat. His personal demons with child support/custody and alimony, do not in any way mitigate his criminal actions which resulted in his death.

Hawkmoon
June 22, 2005, 11:03 PM
C_sponge, I hope you will send a copy of your post as a letter to the editor of every newspaper in the vicinity that's likely to have reported on the incident itself. It does indeed sound like this was a man driven to and beyond the breaking point by an arbitrary and biased system, and it would be a terrible injustice if his death simply cancelled one voice trying to tell the story, without the story getting told.

DMF
June 22, 2005, 11:13 PM
If he wanted his story told properly, maybe he should have continued to live in a manner that would allow HIM to continue telling that story, rather than committing crimes that forced two cops to kill him.

rwc
June 23, 2005, 12:03 AM
If you want to change the law get involved. If you want to be perceived as a nut-job then rant and rave, file baseless lawsuits, and end your life in a spectacularly public and stupid way.

As for the "he been wronged" choir - sorry, tough luck boys. I've seen all sides of it as the child of divorced parents, as a divorced man, and as someone with 20+ years of experience with the legal system, including working for family law practitioners early on. People that can't act like adults often choose to fight their soon to be ex-spouse through their children. There is no "uglier" area of law than family law. And people like him are the reason. It is not a coincidence that the two fatal courthouse shootings in Seattle have been essentially family law matters.

As for the ex-wife being "bad" - sorry, but the daughter (presumably an adult) would decide who attends her wedding, not her mom. In fact, courts tend to let the kids decide the amount of visitation once they become teenagers. If your teenage kid doesn't want to see you it may be that their mom has filled their head with poison. If that is the case they will eventually come around if you are patient and persistant in expressing your unconditional love. When they really don't want to see you at all, well, it's time to look long and hard in the mirror.

While I do not pretend to know the facts of this situation, I have seen far too many men and women get fixated by hatred that they cannot let go of to fail to recognize it here.

My only hope is that he has found the peace he did not know and that his family will quickly come to terms with their grief over his cowardly choice of death.

stevelyn
June 23, 2005, 01:35 AM
At least the ex-wife, parasite offspring and the govt aren't going to be able to bleed him dry for anymore money. Guess the blood-sucking bastages will have to go find another "host".

c_yeager
June 23, 2005, 03:25 AM
I suppose they canít get the other side of the story since he is no longer alive. The news sources paint him as an obsessive psycho bad guy.

Ummm, the man walked into the court building waving a hand grenade and forced two decent people to take his life because he didnt have the guts to do it himself. That act alone negates EVERYTHING that he has ever done in his life, and the world is a better place minus one scumbag.

Seriously, if you want to decide that this guys bad-shake at life is anything even RESEMBLING justification for an act such as this, then you REALLY need to start campaigning for the release of 90% of the prison population. Does being a poor disadvantaged youth justify a mugging? Does being the target of racism and bigotry justify murder? There ISNT a justification for this, period.

lunaslide
June 23, 2005, 04:23 AM
Seriously, if you want to decide that this guys bad-shake at life is anything even RESEMBLING justification for an act such as this, then you REALLY need to start campaigning for the release of 90% of the prison population. Does being a poor disadvantaged youth justify a mugging? Does being the target of racism and bigotry justify murder? There ISNT a justification for this, period.

Oh, geez. For $%*$($ sake, no one on this thread has tried to justify his actions with his cause. Everyone has clearly differentiated between his cause and his final actions. He did something idiotic and irrational, endangered others and caused police to have to shoot him to ensure that he didn't take anyone with him.

HOWEVER, saying that his action discredits his cause is just plain stupid. He had valid gripes with the system. His crusade against that system wasn't very well thought out and wasn't very effective, but it doesn't mean that the cause is without merit. He was given a raw deal by the judge and the courts, especially when the judge on his case, in a crystal clear example of conflicted interest, dismissed a complaint lawsuit about himself. Accusing him of treason was hyperbolic and ineffective, and he should have made a more relevant charge, such as malicious prosecution or judicial misconduct. But the fact remains that he got the shaft by that judge and by the system than enabled him.

Are you really saying here that you have to be rich, hire the best lawyers and have the communication and writing skills of Thomas Jefferson in order to get justice in this country? Shouldn't the bar be higher for the accuser than the accused in a nation that explicitly mentions that among our rights are the right to due process of law and equal protection under the law?

If I hear about one more law here being enacted "for the children", I think I'm going to :barf:

Cesiumsponge
June 23, 2005, 05:09 AM
I don't think anyone on this thread has yet said "yeah Manley, you did the right thing by creating a fantastic media frenzy suicide-by-cop." so I wonder why some of the replies assumes that such a statement was made by anyone. Clearly there is a pre-BOOM situation and post-BOOM situation being discussed but some are merging them.

C_sponge, I hope you will send a copy of your post as a letter to the editor of every newspaper in the vicinity that's likely to have reported on the incident itself. It does indeed sound like this was a man driven to and beyond the breaking point by an arbitrary and biased system, and it would be a terrible injustice if his death simply cancelled one voice trying to tell the story, without the story getting told.

If you've heard the interviews and audio clips of discussions this man had (which to my knowledge has only been broadcasted on the aforementioned radio show since they originated from it), you couldn't help but feel sorry. I don't have kids of my own, but to become separated from your own children at an early age and not being able to see them, then having them grow up with a biased hate towards you is probably one of the biggest slaps in the face life can throw at you. 15 years is a long time to fight a loosing battle and (again I never justify his end means as some seem to be quick to jump the gun) the guy just snapped.

BJ Shea (one of two top rated radio shows in WA and available streaming worldwide) already tried to give "the other side" of the pre-suicide Manley (the same radio host who has logged all the audio between his program and Manley over a period of several years). He has now done interviews and made available the recordings with local newspapers (Seattle P-I) and local news broadcasting stations two days after the incident when the news found out he had information on Manley and flocked to him. The additional information did absolutely nothing in subsequent stories. The television broadcasts I caught mention BJ Shea at 5PM and 11PM broadcasts play a 3-5 second audio clip of Manley (on Fox and Kiro) that didn't really distract or further the situation.

A lot of people who knew the man have and are speaking out. I've written the P-I but no response. The news doesn't feel like changing positions albiet they are adding slightly more details to subsequent stories which I don't find surprising. I never sympathized with what he did in the end. I merely stated repeatedly that his prior attempts to change the system will be shadowed over by his last moments in life and it shouldn't necessarily unravel all he has tried to accomplish. While it would be great if people could follow a yes/no flowchart on what to do in a given situation and when to give up, no such thing exists and everyone will act a different way to a given situation. I just find the entire situation depressing and sad.

Henry Bowman
June 23, 2005, 10:54 AM
his prior attempts to change the system will be shadowed over by his last moments in life and it shouldn't necessarily unravel all he has tried to accomplish. It's too bad he wasn't able to think that through before he acted this one last time. I completely understand how that was not possible, but wish he had found a better way to make his final statement. :(

GunGoBoom
June 23, 2005, 11:03 AM
My question question is, Is there any solid verification that he was actually holding a hand grenade (inert or otherwise), or is this one of those spins by the cops with the help of the media - "oh, it looked like a hand grenade" gets turned into "it WAS a hand grenade" when in reality it was his cellphone, with some trigger-happy, near-sighted cops? I'm just askin... Upon further review, it does appear that it was clearly a grenade (inert or otherwise), as they cops tried to talk him into putting it down, apparently.

If he really was dumb enough to do that (brandish hand grenade), then one lesson here, perhaps is, if you're planning on putting yourself in a situation where the cops might shoot you, brandish a gun, not explosives, so they will possibly get you medical treatment rather than letting you lie until the bomb squad clears things up (unless of course your intent is suicide by cop).

A lot of guys DO get the shaft on child support, by either being ordered to pay an unfair amount, OR, more commonly, are ordered to pay a fair amount at the time of divorce, but upon experiencing a significant decrease in their income, are unable to afford the payments, and importantly, are unable to afford legal representation to apply to the courts for a modification (reduction) of the support payments. It is a very real problem.

Oh yeah, and can't resist, that peashooter caliber of .223 really got lucky didn't it, since it immediately disabled him and killed him either immediately or very quickly, apparently. And cutting board does not equal lev IV trauma plate. :scrutiny:

DMF
June 23, 2005, 11:20 AM
. . . Is there any solid verification that he was actually holding a hand grenade . . .Yes, the device was examined after the bomb squad cleared the area for other devices, and was determined to be an inert grenade.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8307703/
"They sent in the department's bomb squad, whose officers X-rayed the backpack but didn't find any explosives. They found the grenade to be inert. A hole had been drilled in it, Kerlikowske said."

c_yeager
June 24, 2005, 04:30 AM
Oh yeah, and can't resist, that peashooter caliber of .223 really got lucky didn't it, since it immediately disabled him and killed him either immediately or very quickly, apparently. And cutting board does not equal lev IV trauma plate.

Dont forget that he took a load from a 12 guage shotgun at the same time as the .223 to the head. I wonder which one dropped him first?

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