Paper Cartridges, step by step photos..


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timuchin
June 23, 2005, 12:23 AM
Here is everything you need. FFFg Goex in the flask, 30 grain spout. French light rolling papers, though any will do. Some just work better than others.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25743&stc=1

Place ball in paper (sprue towards front) about 3/4th of the way down.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25744&stc=1

Roll paper around ball and MOISTEN where it touches ball.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25745&stc=1

Moisten entire front end of paper and twist shut gently.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25746&stc=1

Pour in powder.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25747&stc=1

Continued...

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timuchin
June 23, 2005, 12:37 AM
Moisten the gum along the entire length of the paper. Gently press the paper together so it sticks. Overlap the end of the paper away from the ball a little bit so that the edge of the paper runs at an angle away from the ball. This will form the cartridge into a cone as you shake down the powder.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25748&stc=1

Grab the end of the paper away from the ball and shake gently to settle the powder. Moisten the entire length of the paper past the powder and begin to twist the paper closed. The powder will form the paper into a cone shape. Continue to twist and shake until the powder no longer moves. This must be done gently.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25749&stc=1

This is what it should look like when you are done.

Clip the tails off, and you have a paper cartridge.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25750&stc=1

.45 ACP boxes are perfect for storage.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25751&stc=1

This works best if you let the paper dry after each time you moisten it. If you are rolling 20 or 30 at a time, the first one is dry by the time you do the last one. Pouring the powder in, moistening the side, and twisting it closed are all done at the same time, in that order.

Any questions, give me a holler. Cheap cigarette papers will work, but are more fragile, don't burn as well, and just more difficult to deal with.

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 12:40 AM
Tim - EXCELLENT!!! I know you ''threatened'' to post this and pics and - here it is. Quite superb and I think even our esteemed Gatofeo would be proud of you too!

This is about as foolproof as it gets and I shall for sure be trying this with my pack of Zig-Zag papers before too long. It's easy really ain't it - just needs a small ''knack''.

Kudos to you and thx for taking the trouble to put this together! :)

timuchin
June 23, 2005, 12:48 AM
That's why I waited so long to do it. The most important thing to remember is to Moisten the paper, do not drool all over it. If you get the paper wet, it will tear. If it does tear, save the powder, save the ball, and grab another paper. No big deal. It happens.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25752&stc=1

Drop right in a 58 Remington. Colts are kind of a pain though, due to the rear of the frame being thicker, and all around less clearance for loading.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25753&stc=1

Once you get used to loading these at the range, it's just as fast as ejecting the empties and reloading a Single Action revolver.

mete
June 23, 2005, 12:59 AM
For a combustable cartridge I thought the paper had to be treated with nitrate ??

timuchin
June 23, 2005, 01:02 AM
but untreated paper will still burn. :banghead:

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 01:05 AM
As I see it the paper is merely a containment vehicle - and will be totally shredded and disappear on firing. It's only about a half thou thick anyways!

''Means to an end'' :)

pauli
June 23, 2005, 01:19 AM
i've only got a passing familiarity with old revolvers, so clue me in - the paper is lit by a percussion cap, or what?

P95Carry
June 23, 2005, 01:22 AM
Pauli - it is not so much that the paper is ''lit'' - it is more that this is a very convenient containment for powder and ball, which, when the flame from the cap travels down the nipple aperture, will ignite the powder - as if the paper is hardly even there!!

robert garner
June 23, 2005, 01:38 AM
Dang if I hadn't known bout this for 30 yrs an never tried it!
Y'all sure make it look easy!
Thanks

c_yeager
June 23, 2005, 03:18 AM
Wow, turns out i actually learned something usefull in highschool afterall :uhoh:

PowderBurn
June 24, 2005, 12:50 AM
Very appreciative of your effort!

No need for wad or grease?

P95Carry
June 24, 2005, 01:03 AM
PB - I'll leave timuchin to comment on this too, but reckon myself that I'd still smear some grease - Bore Butter for me these days. Some folks I know still like Crisco!

I doubt a wad needed providing the loading process still shaves that small ring off the ball to show a good seal.

timuchin
June 24, 2005, 09:34 AM
Grease wouldn't hurt though. I never had a problem with barrel leading. I encourage everyone to give this a shot and report back with their findings/results.

BHPshooter
June 24, 2005, 04:09 PM
This is quite possibly the coolest thread I've ever seen on the High Road.

I need a Single Action BP revolver. :evil:

Wes

PowderBurn
June 24, 2005, 07:15 PM
I've never bought rolling papers in my 40+ years on this earth, but tonight's the night!

Fairlane63
June 24, 2005, 11:46 PM
Just bought my first rolling papers too-- the clerk gave me that "ahhhh yeahhhhhh" sort of look. I hope mine turn out as neat as timuchin's.

-Chris W.

1911 guy
June 25, 2005, 04:10 AM
I've done this for a couple years with my squirrel rifle for hunting (I gotta tear the paper open to load-flint lock) but mine don't turn out as neat as the pics. I must need more practice. And more Zig Zags.

4v50 Gary
June 26, 2005, 02:53 PM
Great. Thank you Timunchin and I see Gatofeo has competition. :neener: Always practice safety and while the shave lead ring should preclude chainfires, grease the cylinder.

BTW, love that green plastic cartridge box. Do you think the NSSA will frown upon that on the skirmish line? :rolleyes:

Burt Blade
June 27, 2005, 12:09 AM
If you are using real black powder, the lube over the ball is very important for keeping the fouling soft. American Pioneer and Triple Seven do not seem to require lube over the ball to reduce fouling, based on my experience.

Make sure you get the ball firmly seated on the powder, so that the powder compresses to fill the entire chamber space, with no air pockets or gaps. Otherwide, you may damage the gun.

You can improve ignition by using a nipple pick after loading the cartridge. This will pierce the paper and ensure a clear path for the flame from the cap to reach the powder directly.

P95Carry
June 27, 2005, 12:13 AM
You can improve ignition by using a nipple pick after loading the cartridge. This will pierce the paper and ensure a clear path for the flame from the cap to reach the powder directly. Burt - that is a very good point - in fact a straightened out paper clip would do just fine for that.

Cortland
June 27, 2005, 12:28 AM
I make paper cartridges for my Sharps rifle. I use onion skin -- sometimes sold as airmail paper, but in either case increasingly anachronistic and hard to find -- soaked in potassium nitrate. Even with the Sharps' circuitous flash tube I've never had ignition problems, although I've never tried untreated paper. With the Sharps of course you've got to tie the paper cartridge onto the base of the bullet; I use potassium nitrate treated cotton string for that. I glue my cartridges with sodium silicate.

Regarding *compressing* the charge to avoid air pockets -- that's not possible in theory or in practice with a Sharps but they seem to do OK.

Tinker2
June 27, 2005, 03:04 PM
I used to make shot capsules that way. Shot only no powder.
Worked best if it was my first shot in my 1851 repro.
I used that as my main packing piece when out in the sticks.
I have not made paper cartridges for it since the early 60’s
When I did, I made them with flash paper. Worked the best
for me. Anyone beside me ever use flash paper??


Google for " Magic supply flash paper "

Dirty Bob
June 27, 2005, 04:27 PM
Timuchin, you rock! This is one of the coolest threads in a long time! I gotta try this! :cool:

Thanks,
Dirty Bob

Mac Attack
June 27, 2005, 05:23 PM
Way cool. Kind of makes me wish I had a old cap and ball firearm to try it out of. Thanks for posting the pics.

Mac

PowderBurn
June 27, 2005, 06:20 PM
Kind of makes me wish I had a old cap and ball firearm to try it out of.
The beauty of it is they aren't that expensive, and in most places you don't need any special permits, licenses, or waiting periods. Cabela's and many others will ship it straight to your door. It's much too easy!

TMM
June 27, 2005, 08:35 PM
damn! you know, i think i might have to try this one day...

is there still the 21-year-old age restriction?

~TMM

Third_Rail
August 16, 2005, 12:49 PM
Sticky this thread, it needs it. There've been two threads asking for how to make paper cartridges since it was posted.


TMM - depends on the state, but generally no. Not even 18 in a lot of places.

P95Carry
August 16, 2005, 01:12 PM
Third_Rail - indeed, it is a valuable reference.

I am pre-empting 4V50Gary here as it is not my forum to mod but will sticky it just so as it does not slip down again into oblivion :)

Third_Rail
August 16, 2005, 01:15 PM
Thanks much!

This, IMO, is in the same league as Gatofeo's "best usage" thread.

warbirdlover
August 31, 2005, 12:33 PM
Can you throw a lubed wad in there between ball and powder? Or isn't it necessary. I don't like to use grease over the balls.

Smokin_Gun
September 3, 2005, 11:55 PM
I thought this looked familiar when one of the guys posted your site in Voy.com ... Great job on the Pics ...I like it well done. Below is what I had stored in my files Timuchin. It surely did look familar...LoL! ;oD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I've found Zig-Zag papers to be the best. Perfect size and
durable, but any regular size paper will do. French Light papers also word very well,
as they are a bit bigger and somewhat thinner than Zig-Zags. Start with a ball, sprue
up. Wrap the paper around the ball, about a quarter of the way from the end. Moisten
the gum where it touches the ball, as well as the shorter end of the paper, and twist
the paper shut over the sprue. It is important to wrap the paper at a bit of an angle,
so that the longer end (away from the sprue) forms a cone. It doesn't have to be very
pronounced, just as long as the end farthest from the ball is of a smaller diameter
than the ball itself. Measure your powder (I use a cva flask with a 30 grain spout, it
actually throws 27 grains) and pour it into the open end of the paper. Don't worry
that the side is not sealed, the powder will expand the paper into the proper cone shape.
Grab the cartrige by the open end and give it a little shake to settle the powder.
Moisten the gum along the side of the cartrige, and give it another shake. Moisten
the entire paper past the level of the powder, and twist it shut, shaking slightle as
you go. When you are done, you should have a cone shaped cartrige with the ball on one
end, and tapering down slightly with the opposite end being flat. There will be
tightly twisted bits of paper protruding form each end, but just wait a minute or two
for the paper to dry, and snip them off with scissors. The finished product should be
tight enough that the powder will not move if you shake the cartridge. They fit
perfectly in a .45 acp cartrige box. Stored this way, I have yet to have one break on
me. With a little practice, one can load a black powder revolver as fast as one can
unload and reload a single action cartridge revolver. That's it. If you have problems
doing it, it's probably because I'm not explaining it very well."

I might add, I didn't have the best time of my life makin these. Way too much work for me ... I carry two spare cylinders with my Rem. I think I can beat the time on reloading these paper cartridges...HeHe, I will admit it's sure fun to do but I cast too many round balls to be rollin cartridges. Bad enough I gotta roll Top Cigarettes... :D

Smokin_Gun

Smokin_Gun
September 3, 2005, 11:56 PM
:cool:

Chubbo
September 4, 2005, 01:17 AM
Does any one have access to pictures of how the original packs of paper cartriges, or skins as they were called by some? I would like to see how they were packed in the brown paper wrapers. I would like to make some of the cartrige packs, for use in presentation cases for black powder revolveers. I have made fake packs, and have lables that I have made, but would like to make real ones, using the method that has been discribed in this thread. About twenty years ago, when I was gathering accessories to build a case for my Colt 1860 Army revolver and Stock, the Skins were available at the gun shows, the originals, and repos. They are not found today at the gun shows, nor are the other accessories. I will post a picture of the fake ones that I have build. They are the same size, and done with the same kind of paper that the originals were made with, but do not contain the cartridges. I could post a picture of how they look in a presintation case with the Gun & accessories if anyone is interested.
Thanks.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/320900.JPG
Chubbo

Smokin_Gun
September 4, 2005, 01:23 AM
Chubbo, Dixie Gun Works has some kits which are suppose to be like the originals.... I saw um in the catalog..get ahold of me if you need a part number... The term skins came from onion skins, what paper was made of.

Smokin_Gun
September 4, 2005, 01:46 AM
This don't need paper cartridges...
http://tinypic.com/dcd7at.jpg
http://tinypic.com/dcd7p0.jpg

Yankee John
September 4, 2005, 12:47 PM
This is the best tutorial on paper pistol cartridges that I have ever seen!

So, I went out last night and bought some Zig Zag papers and tried it myself. I pretty much followed the directions, but did one thing different; I wrapped the papers around a 7/16" wooden dowel and wetted the adhesive, to make the paper cylinders. After the paper cylinders were dry, I then inserted the .454 ball, carefully working the paper around the balls so as not to tear them. Worked great and went very quickly once I got the hang of it!

Here are a couple picks of my finished product.


John

warbirdlover
September 4, 2005, 03:22 PM
But can you put a lubed wad between ball and powder?

Old Fuff
September 4, 2005, 04:42 PM
The original paper cartridges made for revolvers used a lubricated bullet, and a paper tube was glued to the bullet below the lubricant. The tubes themselves were tapered, and slightly longer then the chamber - the idea being that the tube would rupture when the cartridge was rammed home, and spill a little powder around the back of the chamber.

I haven't tried it, but a felt wad, lubricated with wax behind the bullet might work without degrading the paper tube.

wile326
September 11, 2005, 01:27 AM
I am new to this board, though I would say hello and throw my 2 cents in. I shoot a lot of BP, cap and ball and cartridge. I have been using cigarette papers for years, I dont use any type of nipple pic and have never had a problem with them. Before I used to use the cigaretter paper I bought paper from Dixie Gun Works for my combustible cartridges, then I learned from an old time BP shooter that cigarette paper is already nitrated. Been using it ever since.

any ways Hello to all, seems like a good board

Beartracker
September 19, 2005, 03:05 PM
Smokin_Gun, I really like the "Petina" look of your gun. Thinking about doing that to my 1858 Rem.
The paper cartridges are great for some But I really don't like them or I should say my .44 Remington don't like them as I found out a few years ago. It shoots totally different , (low left) and the caps seems to jam the gun allot for some reason. Never have that problem without the paper cartridge. Had two that never went off and one hang fire out of about 24 shots.
I really liked the idea and I know they used them allot in the old days but I think I'll just load mine like I always have ( Never failed me yet) and just keep my extra cylinder loaded and in a cylinder pouch on my belt :) .

FSCJedi
September 21, 2005, 02:05 PM
Anyone try this with '51 Navy's yet? I've noticed that with the balls I use, it shaves a small ring of lead when I seat 'em. Will this be a problem since the paper will be around the ball as well?

I generally use some lube over the ball, but for more long term storage (like long hikes and whatnot), a wad between the powder and ball, then wrapped with paper seems like the way to go.

Also, someone mentioned using a dowel rod to make their papers first. What size should I use for the .36 cal. if I wanted to try this?

rlltdjpr
September 23, 2005, 06:45 PM
Tumuchin, thanks for the idea--I went to a "tobacco" (I don't think they aim to serve the tobacco crowd) shop today and rolled 36 cartridges--It will make this weekend's range trip much more enjoyable.

Chubbo
September 24, 2005, 12:54 AM
Hi, Timuchin;
Those pictures were great. You make me green with envy! All the information was great also. I would give anything to be able to take pictures like you do with my digital camera. I would love to print out the article with the pictures included, but when I try, the pictures are blank and say immage not available. How would I go about getting them along with the article?

Chubbo

Smokin_Gun
September 24, 2005, 08:41 AM
I make paper cartridges for my Sharps rifle. I use onion skin -- sometimes sold as airmail paper, but in either case increasingly anachronistic and hard to find -- soaked in potassium nitrate. Even with the Sharps' circuitous flash tube I've never had ignition problems, although I've never tried untreated paper. With the Sharps of course you've got to tie the paper cartridge onto the base of the bullet; I use potassium nitrate treated cotton string for that. I glue my cartridges with sodium silicate.

Cig papers are Nitrated paper... that's why they work so well. :cool:

Chubbo saving the pics... make a folder in My Documents/My Pictures/ Name it Cig Paper Carts... Rt. click on each pic select "Save as" label each one (example 1,2,3 ect) They'll all be in a folder together Save the verbage to a "Text File" and keep um together. I keep a Folder called "BP Notes" and this ones going in there too.
Good job Timuchin!

Can't save these pics like normal .jpegs, I don't know why. Must be a type of software only your camera uses. I have to save as then open with "Windows picture and fax viewer." But I did save them I just can't convert to use as Thumbnails.

Chubbo
September 24, 2005, 10:42 PM
Hi, SG:
Thanks for the info ,on how to save the pictures. As you have already surmised, I am prety much computer iliterate. I am sure going to try this procedure. It is somthing that I have run across every since I have used, or misused a computer, and wanted to find out how to do this. I will probably bog down on it before I master this, but am going to try.
On another subject that you helped me with, I finally found two books listed on loading black powder cartridges. One is Loading the black powder cartridge by Paul Mathews, and the other, SPG Lubricants & Black powder Cartridges- A loading Primer by Mike Venturanio & Steve Garbe. Do you know anything about those books? I am going to get one or the other, or if there is a better one out there, I will get it. In a batch of stuff that I bought a while back, I found a brand new set of lyman carbite dies for .45 Colt, and a new unused 2 piece 12" BP drop tube for a LYman classic # 55 powder measure. In some of the sifting of information that I have heard, Lyman dos not recomend using their std. #55 measure for BP. Got to find out more about this. I can not find a listing by Lyman or RCBS for sets of dies in .38 Long colt, but Lee does. One of the suppliers of BP equipment, and supplies, states that the .38 Long Colt cartridge and the.38 Short colt is basically the .38spc. cartridge shortened. That makes me wonder if the .38 Long Colt cartridge could be loaded with .38 spc./.357 Mag. dies. I also load .357 Max. in mine by using a correctly dimentioned spacer.
Thanks again.
Chubbo

Smokin_Gun
September 26, 2005, 09:02 PM
Hi, SG:
Thanks for the info ,on how to save the pictures. As you have already surmised, I am prety much computer iliterate. I am sure going to try this procedure. It is somthing that I have run across every since I have used, or misused a computer, and wanted to find out how to do this. I will probably bog down on it before I master this, but am going to try.
On another subject that you helped me with, I finally found two books listed on loading black powder cartridges. One is Loading the black powder cartridge by Paul Mathews, and the other, SPG Lubricants & Black powder Cartridges- A loading Primer by Mike Venturanio & Steve Garbe. Do you know anything about those books? I am going to get one or the other, or if there is a better one out there, I will get it. In a batch of stuff that I bought a while back, I found a brand new set of lyman carbite dies for .45 Colt, and a new unused 2 piece 12" BP drop tube for a LYman classic # 55 powder measure. In some of the sifting of information that I have heard, Lyman dos not recomend using their std. #55 measure for BP. Got to find out more about this. I can not find a listing by Lyman or RCBS for sets of dies in .38 Long colt, but Lee does. One of the suppliers of BP equipment, and supplies, states that the .38 Long Colt cartridge and the.38 Short colt is basically the .38spc. cartridge shortened. That makes me wonder if the .38 Long Colt cartridge could be loaded with .38 spc./.357 Mag. dies. I also load .357 Max. in mine by using a correctly dimentioned spacer.
Thanks again.
Chubbo


I have read excerts online from A Loading Primer, they were good. I typedyou more info but you haven't been back to Voy...I found you a .38Colt plus .38spl, and .45Colt. Lee makes .38Colt dies along with Rcbs, Lyman, ect. And as I had told you in Voy you can not use .357 in a BP Conversion only .38spl and they can not be used to load .38 Colt cases... .38 Colt is Colt, .38spl is Smith&Wesson a modern cartridge and was not used in the 19th Century. With BP you fill the case so a bullet presses against the powder, about 20gr with a .38LC. hate retyping everthing again in here. Next time you ask somethoing check back ok? See ya gotta get...

Jim101
September 27, 2005, 02:09 PM
Great post! And pictures....Thanks, and I still have some papers from the 60's somewhere around the house......... :D

Jim

Bummer
December 11, 2005, 12:06 AM
Great post, I appreciate the pictures! I'm definitely going to try this out.

mec
December 11, 2005, 12:20 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32450&stc=1&d=1134274798

georgeduz
December 11, 2005, 09:09 AM
please dont try to smoke it

Smokin_Gun
December 11, 2005, 06:14 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused: please dont try to smoke it HUNH???:confused: :confused: :confused:

armoredman
December 11, 2005, 07:06 PM
Very cool - if I ever get another BP revolver, I may try this! It would be funny to walk into a "smoke shop" in uniform, and ask for some rolling papers....:p

Niner
December 14, 2005, 09:13 PM
I just happened by this post while looking for something else... but glad I did. Really good instruction. Makes me want to give it a try.

Just one question. I would guess with this cartridge you wouldn't need either the wad or the grease seal. Chain fire is usually caused... maybe, so I've read.. by caps coming off of the nipples rather than fire transfer from the front end. But... just wondered the general opinion with this way of loading as to additional safety considerations.

JohnKSa
December 16, 2005, 11:18 PM
Anybody tried this with conicals?

Bummer
January 9, 2006, 07:08 PM
Well, I tried it and they work great. I even convinced one of my friends to try it, he was a bit skeptical at first but is a convert.

I roll the papers before inserting the ball. I just fold the paper to the gum line, fold the gum line over, gum it, and let it dry. Then I open it, push a ball down, and put the powder in. Works like a charm.

Bummer

Duncaninfrance
January 9, 2006, 07:59 PM
A friend at my club gave me a copy of the December Issue of a French mag called Action Arms & TIR which has an article on paper cartridge making. I am trying to get a translated version but in the mean time here are 2 pics from the article which might answer JohnKsa's question.
Will post more if I get a translation.
Duncan

JohnKSa
January 9, 2006, 08:46 PM
WARNING! This post is written with the express intent to inform and entertain. Due to the differences in human nature, behavior and culture, it is possible that information contained within this post may annoy the reader although that is certainly not the intent of the author. Reading past this point constitutes an agreement by the reader to waive his legal right not to be annoyed by anonymous communication on the internet.

If you do not wish to waive this right, please stop reading at this point and use the ignore feature on this forum to avoid future posts by this author. Thank you.

Interesting!

That paper looks much heavier--almost like a light cardstock.

Duncaninfrance
January 12, 2006, 05:54 AM
I have been in touch with the author of the article who is going to do a rusumé of it in English which he says I am welcome to post. If any of you guys want a copy of the French article let me have an e.mail address and I will send it. It is a PDF file of 3 pages with photographs.

Duncan

Chubbo
January 13, 2006, 11:02 AM
Hi, Duncan:
I would like to have a copy of that article.
My e-mail address is lsites@aol.com
Thanks.

Chubbo

stevekl
January 15, 2006, 01:15 AM
Ok so I don't know anything about black powder but can you use these paper cartridges in a non-revolver weapon? Can you just drop it in and ram it down or does it need a wad behind it?

Smokin_Gun
January 15, 2006, 06:06 AM
If you mean in a Muzzleloading rifle or pistol .. the answer is yes with no wad needed, BUT...I recommend you tear the end off that you stuff into the muzzle...As was done in the Civil War. Lest Ye May have trouble ifin it don't fire after a few caps or frizzins...(and it won't shoot out):eek:

Singing Bear
January 17, 2006, 03:11 AM
Aloha! Just found this forum and this thread and thought I'd share a few things, if y'all don't mind.

I've been making paper cartridges for years, but it's the tear n pour type. I use bugler rolling papers for the tube and use white glue to glue the 454 round ball in. Sorry no pics, but here's what I do.

For 44 cal. I use a 3/8 wood dowel wrapped a couple of times with 2" masking tape. It's about the right diameter for a 454 round ball to slide in. I wrap a paper around the dowel with the adhesive strip opposite the end of the dowel and on the inside of the tube. White glue the edge and seal to make a tube. Slide the tube up about 3/8", glue the inside edge and slide a ball in till it's half way. Remove the tube and let dry for about 5 minutes. Charge the tube with powder, dampen the adhesive strip and press to seal.

For 36 cal., it's the same procedure except you use just a plain 3/8" dowel. No tape.

To load, I tear the end off with my teeth, pour the powder into the chamber, bunch up the paper tube under the ball and seat the whole thang. The paper does not act as a wad. Here's the reason.

No wad or lube is used. If you have a cylinder with out of round chambers, you could get chainfires from the front. Happened to me with 2 different guns. Both shaved nice round rings of lead, but when I tested them with a mag light, they showed large gaps between the seated ball and the chamber walls. Large gaps. Plenty enough to allow sparks to set off the charge. Rolling paper being nitrated is lousy for stopping sparks.;) I load these guns with loose powder and wads. No chainfire problems.

Here's some tips. Check out online stores like esmokes for rolling papers. They sell them by the carton and you pretty much get a lifetime's supply in one carton. My buglers come 100 leaves per pack, 24 packs per carton. Buglers are about the least expensive and found them to be a little more sturdy for all the handling it goes through. ZZ being the most fragile. No more "yeah, right." looks at the convenience store. :D

Elmer's while glue works plenty good enough for glueing the ball into the tube. I "cut" mine with a few drops of water and use a toothpick to spread it. I've had to soak ruined cartridges to salvage the ball. It stuck that good.

If you're not going to use a wad or over powder lube, please check your chambers to make sure they're true. Just remove the nipples, seat the balls to the desired depth, hold the chamber up to a small flashlight and look through the nipple hole. If there're gaps, you'll see a lighted crescent, or two, to the side of the chamber. That would be a gap between the ball the chamber wall. Larger balls will not work as the chamber mouth will shave it the same as it would a slightly smaller ball, ie, 454 vs. 457. True chambers will allow no light. Just because a chamber mouth shaves a nice ring off the ball does not always mean a good seal in the chamber. There are the few cylinders out there with bad chambers. Not many, but enough that I would advise checking them first.

These "bad" cylinders are still very shootable. Just use dry or lubed wads under the ball. With tear n pour cartridges, you can still use wads. Just not in the cartridge.

The reason I use this type of cartridge is I don't have to lug around a flask, loose balls and wads. My hands travel up to the gun only once with paper cartridges. Also makes loading between stages just a little quicker at CAS matches. :)

Thanks for listening, y'all. Now I'm going to study the other type of cartridges that this thread is about and try making those. They do seem easier to make and I do have several match guns with true chambers. :D

Yankee John
January 18, 2006, 05:03 AM
I just wanted to chime in here and thank the topic starter and all contributers for this outstanding thread! These are a godsend, and save so much time at the range.

I posted a couple of pics earlier of the cartridges that I have been making. As a matter of fact I made another 100 in the last couple evenings while watching TV with the wife. Definately productive time that would otherwise be wasted!

Just an observation: I use the thin/fragile Zig Zag-brand papers and find that they burn up very well in my Remingtons & Colts, with very little paper reminants left in the cylinder after several cylinders fired at the range.

John

Duncaninfrance
January 22, 2006, 05:02 PM
Hi Guys, I have been trying all afternoon to get on but my browser woudn't open the site.
ANYWAY - the attached are 3 pages from another French Gun Mag article on making your own paper cartridges. No translation but the pictures are easy to follow.

I will be trying this later this week when a friend of mine has made me a brass mandrel because I can't get my hands on a 9.3 x 74Rmm case so will report back then.
Duncan

Duncaninfrance
February 5, 2006, 06:49 PM
Well, I went to the range today and shot 36 paper cartridges that I made yesterday while I watched England trash Wales in the Rugby ( so it’s been a good weekend!! ).
(See first attached picture. The bones in the background are all that is left of the last postman!!!).

LOADING THE CARTRIDGES.
I made them as per the information given in the 3 pages I posted earlier.

Because I couldn’t get my hands on a 9,3X74 R cartridge a friend of mine turned me a brass mandrill which was great for making the paper cases. I loaded them with 1.2 grams of powder followed by pollenta and then a 10mm dry card wad stamped from picture mounting card. This was followed by another card wad which had a small smear of Bore Butter on one side which was sandwiched between the 2 wads. Lastly I loaded the .457 ball and twisted the cartridge closed.

Observations:-

Rolling the paper was quite easy but every now and again it would slip and produce an oversize tube which when loaded looked too large for the chamber. I had to throw away 2 such cartridges after taking the ball out.

I had to take care when loading the ball as it was fairly easy to tear the paper if any pressure was applied or the end was over twisted. The instructions are for a .451 or .454 ball so I assume that these will make it easier next time.

AT THE RANGE.
First off, there was a lot of interest in the cartridges and quite a lot of discussion in French about the way they were made. I found them very easy to load in my Remington and quite consistent when fired using Vorderlander-Zündhütchen caps. ( See second picture of target shot at 25 mtrs / 27 yards ).

Observations:

I had 3 miss-fires which might have been down to old caps but I think more likely it was the small twist of paper at the base of the cartridge that was jammed into the nipple hole. I poked the nipple hole and reset another cap and they all fired second time.

One or two shots were slightly delayed, I think for the same reason.

There was paper residue in all chambers after firing and this had to be removed but was not a problem.

I pulled the barrel through after each 6 shots using a rag soaked in auto screen wash which kept it 100% clean.

Overall the gun seemed to stay cleaner than when using a conventional powder/pollenta/felt lube wad/ball load and was easier to clean afterwards.

Next Time:

I will load .451 and/or .454 balls.
I will buy some new caps.
I will put less twist in the base of the paper.
I will use nail clippers to cut the twisted paper rather than scissors.
I will try pricking the cartridge through the nipple hole.

The young son of one of the members was spellbound by the whole thing. He must be about 10 or 11. I let him fire my last round off and the look of sheer ecstasy on his face said it all!! A great day.
Duncan

Manyirons
February 5, 2006, 07:24 PM
Hi Guys, I have been trying all afternoon to get on but my browser woudn't open the site.
ANYWAY - the attached are 3 pages from another French Gun Mag article on making your own paper cartridges. No translation but the pictures are easy to follow.

I will be trying this later this week when a friend of mine has made me a brass mandrel because I can't get my hands on a 9.3 x 74Rmm case so will report back then.
Duncan


WHY am i hearing Peter Sellers doing Closeau when i'm reading this? "You have for me the Poudre?"

Many thanks Duncan! I've been putting my paper on granite plate for machine measuring and spraying them first with potassium nitrate solution, trying next potassium chlorate.

I've ordered small quantities of both nitric and sulfuric acids, with 100% cotton paper to make flash paper.

Going after this with a vengence with the cold and snow here! Three minutes outside and you look like snowman, i AINT shooting in this weather!

Oh yes, reading title, "Confection de cartouches combustibles cal. .44 poudre noir" or "The cartridges combustible caliber .44 powder black" I take it "Confection" is construction? Not candy one hopes!

Yankee John
February 5, 2006, 09:19 PM
I've been busy too! Here are the cartridges that I have made over the last month while watching TV with the wife.

John

Duncaninfrance
February 6, 2006, 06:03 PM
I've been busy too! Here are the cartridges that I have made over the last month while watching TV with the wife.

John

Impressed John but aren't you supposed to shoot them not store them :rolleyes:
What kind of trays are you using to store them in?
Duncan

Duncaninfrance
February 6, 2006, 06:14 PM
I will load .451 and/or .454 balls.
I will buy some new caps.
I will put less twist in the base of the paper.
I will use nail clippers to cut the twisted paper rather than scissors.
I will try pricking the cartridge through the nipple hole.
Duncan

Hey Manyirons, "Du yu ave zee leesance fur zat poodur? "

I went to the range this morning and had a talk with the guy I got the Remington from.
He said that a .451 ball is not big enough to give a good seal so it looks like a .454. Then I got to thinking about it and I think that if I just make the paper cartridge with the powder, pollenta and wad it will be quicker because I can drop the cartridge into the cylinder and then load my .457 ball as before on top. I still think I will buy some new caps as those are looking a bit old.

Will keep you posted.
Duncan

Manyirons
February 6, 2006, 06:43 PM
Hey Manyirons, "Du yu ave zee leesance fur zat poodur? "

I went to the range this morning and had a talk with the guy I got the Remington from.
He said that a .451 ball is not big enough to give a good seal so it looks like a .454. Then I got to thinking about it and I think that if I just make the paper cartridge with the powder, pollenta and wad it will be quicker because I can drop the cartridge into the cylinder and then load my .457 ball as before on top. I still think I will buy some new caps as those are looking a bit old.

Will keep you posted.
Duncan

"Leesance?! We don' need no steenkin' leesance!!!!!!"

Why not up the poodur, and omit the pollenta? Poodur (Oh HELL, Now i'm stuck on this!) wads, paper.

Duncaninfrance
February 6, 2006, 06:59 PM
"Leesance?! We don' need no steenkin' leesance!!!!!!"

Why not up the poodur, and omit the pollenta? Poodur (Oh HELL, Now i'm stuck on this!) wads, paper.

"Ar but zat is wher yoo ar roong monsieur, the leiu must be obaid yu nouw"!

I was thinking of uping the load to 1.4 grams (21.6 grains I think) and reducing the pollenta but keeping the card wads and lube then loading the ball separatey.


Duncan

Manyirons
February 6, 2006, 07:52 PM
"Ar but zat is wher yoo ar roong monsieur, the leiu must be obaid yu nouw"!

I was thinking of uping the load to 1.4 grams (21.6 grains I think) and reducing the pollenta but keeping the card wads and lube then loading the ball separatey.


Duncan

"Inspeeector....Click-CLICK!! Talk to the muzzle cause the ears aint hearing!!"

I'd go for the 2.0 grams, 21.6 (To me) WAY-light.

Yankee John
February 6, 2006, 08:32 PM
Duncan- I know I am supposed to shoot them, but it is winter and cold here in Minnesota right now. I have to have something to do since I can't go outside and shoot!

I use the trays that come in the boxes with my regular .45 colt ammunition (I own a couple of cartridge pistols too). They work great for storage.


John

Manyirons
February 6, 2006, 10:39 PM
Duncan- I know I am supposed to shoot them, but it is winter and cold here in Minnesota right now. I have to have something to do since I can't go outside and shoot!

I use the trays that come in the boxes with my regular .45 colt ammunition (I own a couple of cartridge pistols too). They work great for storage.


John

John!

Know EXACTLY how you feel! Aint a snowman and don't wanna become one! COLD out there!

cidirkona
February 16, 2006, 09:44 AM
Hey, I might actually get that weird looking black thing out of the back of my safe now - that actually looks decently straightforward.

On second thought, I still don't have the guts or know-how to actually shoot that thing.... :uhoh:

-Colin

Duncaninfrance
February 17, 2006, 06:18 AM
Hey, I might actually get that weird looking black thing out of the back of my safe now - that actually looks decently straightforward.

On second thought, I still don't have the guts or know-how to actually shoot that thing.... :uhoh:

-Colin

Go On Colin be a little :evil: You never know till you try and then BOOM! you wonder why it took you so long :rolleyes:
Duncan

cidirkona
February 17, 2006, 10:39 AM
Oh, the concept of 'boom' seems very nice - but the concept of 'kaboom' seems a little less appetizing.

Does anyone want to buy her? I can get pictures later if anyone wants. Brass framed remmy .45 cal with a 10-12 inch barrel.

-Colin

georgeduz
February 25, 2006, 08:41 AM
i try these at the range,and could not keep a tight group,and too much lube over the ball does the same.i might just try to roll up only the powder charge next time.

sundance44s
March 28, 2006, 05:46 PM
Nice job with the rolling paper .. i never could roll like that ..had to use a pipe . but hey i got a brother in law that can roll like that .. i`ll get him to roll me some when he gets out of prision ! :D

Gewehr98
March 28, 2006, 06:15 PM
Shoot me a PM. I've become addicted to BP cap & ball revolvers, but unfortunately, the first two I obtained are now the cherished property of my stepsons. :(

The Sicilian
April 2, 2006, 02:11 PM
Awesome!

I'd been reading about how to make these cartriges for the past day or so, pictures sure are worth a thousand words. I've even got a pack of papers lying around...I think I'll give it a try. Thanks brother.

The Sicilian.:what:

quiknot
April 16, 2006, 10:49 AM
now that i see it (a picture is worth 1000 words) it seems so natural....always liked shoooting my BP's...but hated the time it took to reload and then how quickily it shot out all those six shooters....now i can load a few in paper and havew a field day shooting....

one note / question....read where they were made to shot accurate at 75 yds....shooting at 25 / 50 yds...do i use "kentucky windage " or file down the high front sight?

timuchin
May 17, 2006, 12:32 AM
Hard to explain, but easy to do once you get the hang of it.

Tallyman541
July 16, 2006, 02:13 AM
Seems nice and easy I also had an idea I wanted to throw around if you took a block of something short enough to hold the cartraige and the top would stick out so you could twist off the extra paper(wood, plastic, aluminum, styrofoam) then drill how ever many holes you could fit all the size of the bullet you would use and put the ball in the rolling papers like the first example then plop the ball and paper into one of the holes and fill with powder and then seal it off. you would have a little case(heavy!!!) or just something to make the cartraiges in. I would like to take full credit for this design....a little fine tuning help from 4v50 Gary

Tallyman541
July 16, 2006, 02:30 AM
I had an idea I wanted to throw around if you took a block of something short enough to hold the cartraige and the top would stick out so you could twist off the extra paper(wood, plastic, aluminum, styrofoam) then drill how ever many holes you could fit all the size of the bullet you would use and put the ball in the rolling papers like the first example then plop the ball and paper into one of the holes and fill with powder and then seal it off. you would have a little case(heavy!!!) or just something to make the cartraiges in. I would like to take full credit for this design....a little fine tuning help from 4v50 Gary

TMM
July 16, 2006, 10:56 AM
sounds like a good idea, no messing around with it freehand - can probably increase speed too.

~tmm

armedandsafe
July 16, 2006, 04:53 PM
hmmmm...send me dimensions. Hole diameter, hole depth, rifle or revolver.

Pops

armedandsafe
July 16, 2006, 05:51 PM
I'd like to play with that one. I have a little black locust left. Might finish out right nicely. :D

Pops

Tallyman541
July 16, 2006, 07:13 PM
Honestly it was just an idea that popped into my head don't have anything to make cartraiges for yet

Tallyman541
July 17, 2006, 01:56 AM
BTW what size nipples do the 1858 remingtons on Cabela's have? I am looking for a nipple wrench

Duncaninfrance
July 17, 2006, 04:52 AM
:( Since I got my bench loader I have to admit that I have stopped making paper cartridges. I find the loader produces better consistancy with no paper residue.
I know - BigIron paper for better booms!! Trouble is I need the fomula so I can make my own. Can't import stuff like that :cool: :cool:
Duncan

4v50 Gary
July 17, 2006, 10:20 AM
Armed & Safe: Dimensions depends on what caliber gun you're loading for. The block should be drilled out to fit the ball and paper without breaking the paper. That's a trial & error routine with scrap wood.

pascalp
July 17, 2006, 08:08 PM
45ACP brass work well for Paper 44PN.
One hand only touch brass, other slide bullet then both twist the paper.

http://pascalp2.free.fr/images/PN/cartouche_papier_IMG_2291_cut_800.jpg

For transport, I kept brass protection and use a 45ACP box.

I've stop twisting paper for the bottom (too many misfires) and now i fold the paper, just glued with saliva. Even if more fragile than twist, the 45brass prevent paper to tear.
Now, when i clean chamber i get a peace of paper with a clean hole in the bottom.

Tallyman541
July 18, 2006, 01:16 AM
That seems pretty close to my idea but my idea was using the holes in the box itself

armedandsafe
July 18, 2006, 01:54 AM
I've seen one with the holes drilled through the block. You just place the block on the muzzle and ram the whole thing home. I'm perking some ideas around. More for rifle/shotgun than for revolver, though.

Of course, if you remove the cylinder from the gun, you could drill your hole pattern to match the cylinder and... hmmmm

Pops

Warren
July 18, 2006, 01:57 AM
pascalp, those look awesome.

You can get .45 brass in France it is not regulated out of reach?

Is that cornstarch as the filler?

Tallyman541
July 18, 2006, 02:13 AM
All very interesting just post em up here when you got an idea

pascalp
July 18, 2006, 06:21 AM
Tallyman,
A loading block may not be so easy. You will need enough clearance between holes to work on each cartridge without disturbing other.

For your loading block, try to get taper holes. If you use a conical mandrel to form the jacket, it will give a better support to paper wall while reloading operations. It don't bother if paper tear in chamber under pressure, in loadin block that's an other story!.


Individual armor facilitate manipulations, I think to coat upper part of cartridge with hot grease.
Unprimed .45 brass are really convenients.Due to inside taper of case wall. When you fill the jacket it tighten against wall without slippery while squeezing paper, pushing the bullet. So you can handle, rotate firmly the cartridge.

Don't know if a .380acp or shortened .38spe will fit so well for 36 caliber. I say a shortened 38spe, as a try with a .45Colt wasn't successfull, paper jacket wasn't enough supported!.



Warren,
You are right, .45 brass are regulated items. But I'm also a legal, "modern" caster/metallic reloader/shooter, owning .45ACP wheelgun and 1911. As filler I use couscous, semolina not far from cornstarch, I suppose.

Tallyman541
July 18, 2006, 11:59 AM
Oh I never took into consideration the disturbing the others but I guess that puts a thwart to my plans ain't it

pascalp
July 18, 2006, 01:21 PM
My feeling with loading block came from metallic reloading. Where we have a lot of manipulations, each case/cartridge is move individually from a hole to another one (eventually another loading block) at each step (single stage press).

That's why I don't see an easy way (for in fact a quite different process), which don't mean that there isn't one.

Tallyman541
July 18, 2006, 03:15 PM
Well I guess you could do many diffrent things with this idea

Tallyman541
July 19, 2006, 06:35 PM
I think I am going insane with trying to think of another idea

grislyatoms
August 20, 2006, 04:26 PM
Timuchin:

Thank you very, very much. I never realized (but it makes sense now) that paper cartridges could be loaded in this manner. I did know about the "rip, pour, stuff the paper, ram the ball" type of cartridges, but not these.

You have added a completely new dimension to bp shooting for me.

My 1851 Navy repro is really excited about these!:D

Tallyman541
August 20, 2006, 04:56 PM
Hey anyway we can help just ask:)

gsthreeeight
September 17, 2006, 09:23 AM
Timuchin-

Cigarette papers are certainly a heck of a lot easier than simmering paper in a potassium nitrate solution! And even then I have to brush the cylinders clean of paper residue after about 36 shots. Paper is probably too thick.

And your method is much simpler than mine. I use a template to cut the paper to shape then form it over a shaped wooden dowel before gluing with sodium silicate. The result is a truncated cone, open on the large end. I use a dab of sodium silicate to attach the ball or conical projectile to the paper.

For those interested in a BP revolver, the Ruger is hard to beat. Perhaps not too "authentic" in design or appearance, but sturdy, well made and, in my examples, accurate. One of my favorite loads is a 230gr. cast RN for the .45ACP over 30gr. of FFFg. I have "opened up" the frame ahead of the cylinder to facilitate loading the longer RN projectiles.

Great Forum. Lots of good info.
New member

JediJJJ
September 22, 2006, 07:51 AM
Don't know if this applies but I just received an order from possibleshop.com. On the included flyer is a listing for "Paper Cartridge Reloading Sets" for Sharps rifles. Don't know exactly what this entails or if it could be adapted to pistol cartridges but I thought I'd mention it and let the experts here have at it.

BoomBoom2
October 23, 2006, 02:28 PM
I was thinking of a simular idea but not as suffisticated as your genous idea.

Dithsoer
October 29, 2006, 02:16 AM
I've been making paper cartridges for years but an additional step that I take is to "paint" each finished cartridge with nitrocellulose shellac. This can be easily made by dissolving a spoonful of regular smokeless powder in several spoonfuls of acetone (fingernail polish remover). Depending on the powder used it may take more or less acetone. Once I have a thin syrup I store it in a sealed glass container (the acetone evaporates quickly). Using a small childrens paintbrush I just paint each cartridge with a thin coat of it. Not only does this ensure reliable ignition without the use of a nipple pick, the paper is completely consumed. As an added benefit it also waterproofs them. I have been doing this for years and have never had a failure to fire.

Duncaninfrance
November 5, 2006, 10:22 AM
This was sent as a PM to me by steveb, a new member. Steven said he couldn't seem to post it so here it is. Thanks Steven.

Regarding french paper cartridge article
Heres a translation if you can post it . I tried but it wouldnt let me. Maybe because its a sticky I dont know. Heres is the translation......Steve.

A couple of disclaimers. My wife is not a native French speaker. Her expertise is 17th - 18th century written French. It is much more different from modern French than English of the same period is from modern English. Also, this guy thinks he's funny so, some of the wording and sentence structure wasn't adjusted.

Ta Da!

"Making .44 caliber black-powder Combustible Cartridges"

One day I went to see a movie. It was “Glory”. The war and battle scenes were Spielberg’s ahead of his time! The realism of “Saving Private Ryan” during the war of Secession!
I particularly remember the young colonel, commander of the Northern regiment of black volunteers, loading his 1860 Colt as fast as he could through the hail of .58 bullets, shot by the boy opposite him. This gave me ideas, because, frankly, he had quickened the devil! (slang)

On a much more peaceful note, what percussion revolver marksman doesn’t wipe out the pitying looks of his neighbors, by shooting the beautiful, shiny cartridges inserted by hand in the end of the cylinder? (Frankly, the scoundrels want to keep us, the “powder lovers” from “smoking”.)
Enough said! We have to be able to charge as quickly as on the field of battle, and the marksmen of tin cans (metal cartridges) will have to wait and see!

We will also start to make cartridges like others and we will not have to spend any more time in the shop than the reloaders (lit. “rechargers”)and with more time for shooting. Well, let’s get to it!

MATERIALS NEEDED:

Cigarette paper, as thin as possible, type OCB Premium, Slim, large model.

A mandrel to make a holder, to roll the cigarette paper. A 9.3X 74R case (lit. socket) is perfect for the cartridge holder meant for a .44 caliber. Take care to cut the collar about 1 mm above the shoulder in order to give a loose conical shape to the holder at the end of the paper. (Or, make a mandrel) of metal or wood 60mm long and having 10.20 mm diameter at one end, and 11.70 mm at the other.
The precision of these dimensions and therefore the conical shape, are very important for the proper development of the loading operation and especially of the bullets.

(Use) a little funnel to pour the powder. I use a very fine lightweight aluminum one that can be placed on he holder without crushing it.

All other types allowing the powder to spill can suit, but it is important not to crush the holder.

Discs (rounds, slices, circles) and wads of 10 mm diameter.

Fine semolina flour, if possible.

A little hand drill, (spiral). (The pic. is of an old hand auger.-ed)

Angled pliers, (tweezers).

Round lead bullets.

Of course, these basic materials can be adapted to each function and level of expertise.

1. MAKING THE HOLDER

(1) Place the cigarette-paper on the mandrel, glue side on top and toward you. Hold between the thumb and forefinger of each hand, begin to roll with a rotation movement of the index fingers toward you above the thumbs and moisten the glue with your tongue along the length of the paper.
(2) Finish rolling , twist the paper.
(3) Cut immediately the excess flush, (close, short cropped) with the bore of the mandarin, with the aid of the angled pliers.
Next, remove the mandarin. The 9.3X74R socket non-percussion cap (primer pocket flash hole) presenting the advantage of withdrawing without making the (it a) piston as it would by a full, (full, continuous, unbroken) mandrel. This will have the effect of inhaling (lit.) and therefore, deform the bottom of the holder paper.
4. Let it dry and go on to making the next holder.


2. LOADING THE POWDER

5. Each cap and ball marksman has his own favorite powder and loading method and there is no reason to load what is marketed. As far as I am concerned, I load my cartridges with 0.95 grams of PNF1. Furthermore, what counts, as you will see, is to get the optimum length, (life) out of a cartridge, and this, strictly speaking, applies to the whole batch.

6. Put over the powder a little disc, to separate it from the wad that is to come. This disc will be cut with the aid of a 10 mm punch out of approximately 1 mm thick cardboard, (calendar, or beer case).
Use the little hand-drill for its positioning. (See photo). Screw on loosely over the disc, without crossing, (forcing); everything should slip down the tube; once you made contact with the powder, unscrew and withdraw the drill; the tube, (tower) should be loose, (have play, or the turn is played???).

If the holder is correctly twisted around the mandarin, without slack during the preparation, the 10 mm disc will descend with nice, (great/good) friction.

(8 to 11) In order to secure the cardboard disc and compact the assembly tightly, we will use the mandarin as a stuffer.

3. WADDING

The wadding will be, of common sandstone, (stoneware—grès) made of fine semolina or felt. The height should be about 5 mm.

7). In case of a felt wad, or several cardboard wads, use the drill and mandrel as in step 2. The gas pressure will load itself to compress them sufficiently to attain the barrel diameter

4. POSITIONING THE BULLET

In a 1860 Colt (Uberti) and in a 1858 Remington (Euroarms) I use a .451 bullet. In a Rogers and Spencer (Euroarms), a .454 bullet. In this last diameter the bullet is a little too fragile in descending, because the friction is greater in the partitions of the holder. It takes more practice in loading it. The principle of positioning is illustrated on the previous page.

5. COMPLETED CARTRIDGE

Our cartridge is getting there, now, but we must still refine it. All the same, check is length. This should be 34 to 35 mm. Evidently, this dimension should be refined for each weapon, but it should suffice for all and be compatible with the barrels, (cylinders) of the 1860 Army Colt, 1858 Remington, Rogers and Spencer.

Once the cartridge is driven back, (forced back) into the chamber, the bullet should retract about 2 mm from the edge ahead, (before, in front) of the cylinder. After a few tests, each will adapt to the length of the cartridge to the respective weapon.
Next, get on to the greasing operation. As far as I’m concerned, I use a historical mix: tallow, (75%) and yellow beeswax, (25%) melted in a double-boiler, in which I (lit. “throw/soak”) the bullet and only to a little more than its diameter.

AND NOW, WE SHOOT WHEN?

Evidently, your cartridges are so beautiful, you will love them, and will want to sit up late and curl up in a corner by the fire; you will have only one desire: to be in plain view of those who charge their barrels from behind!

Very well, then, let’s keep going! And you will see that after a little practice you will load your barrel almost once and a half faster than they do. Therefore, you must insert every cartridge in a barrel chamber even those who’s bullets arrive in support of the chamber’s boundaries (sit on top). Then place the cartridge under (lit. on) the ram (lit. wadding), push (lit. wad) gently, (moderately) and steadily throughout. You have to prime again but with a flexible (lit, adaptable) primer; you will gain a little more time this way, (our Northern Colonel had one). It is useless to grease the barrel ahead of time, as the cartridge is perfectly waterproof.

A little advise: before you prime, insert a fine pin into each funnel in order to puncture, (burst, break) the bottom of the cartridge. Without being indispensable, this improves the firing adjustment. This happens, because the more powerful primers render this pinning useless.

AND THEN?

Sadly, some residue of cigarette-paper remains in the chamber, but I recommend to blow well into each chamber to clear them before reloading. As a result, the carefully made cartridges give as good a result as the classical ones, charged without any care. On the contrary, the cartridges assembled in hell give the result of a classical sloppy charge.

The firing of 13 cartridges to a target was against being realized on January 23, 2005, off-hand (lit. with open arms) at 25 m, with a 1858 Remington, in a snow-storm , in order not to put out a Confederate. (??? I have no idea what this means, sorry!).
__________________
www.reloadingandlevergunning.blogspot.com
Cheers
Duncan

stevenb
November 5, 2006, 06:24 PM
Duncan, I posted those pics over on www.leverguns.com forum and another forum members wife translated that. SO the credit goes to her. I am new here but have been reading all the info I can get my hands on for cap and ball pistols. I have much info saved from you, Gatofeo, Mecc, Old fluff, the list goes on. I have a Pietta 1860 Army on the way and cant wait to try it out. I feel as though I'm hooked and dont even have it in my hands yet. I have already casted some round balls and plan on making those lubricated wads per Gatofeo instructions. Anyway thought I would introduce my self as I'm normally hanging over at the leverguns.com forum. Hope to learn something here and maybe have something to contribute my self.:) ....Steve.

P.S., does anyone know how to get an avatar under your username? I have looked but cant find the option.Thanks.....Steve.

P95Carry
November 5, 2006, 06:29 PM
P.S., does anyone know how to get an avatar under your username? I have looked but cant find the option.Thanks.....Steve.

Steve - avatars are not enabled on THR - thus why you won't see any here ;)

The Deer Hunter
November 8, 2006, 09:25 PM
Can you use that for rifles too?

cdm15
November 12, 2006, 10:29 PM
Maybe this is a dum question, but does the paper jam-up with the ball on the way out or effect the ball at all? My colt repo would be hard to see down the cylinder for reminents, with out taking the cylinder off. Does this paper counter act the bore-butter? Is there no need for a wad if you get a good shaving on the ball? Don-:uhoh:

Desert Scorpion
November 15, 2006, 09:32 PM
I have been shootin BP GUNS for a while and didnt even know that you could paper your lead and powder. Were can I get this rolling paper, give me a web site and a recommendation on what paper to use. Thanks:)

Yankee John
November 15, 2006, 11:19 PM
Des Scorp- If you live in the USA, just about every gas station or grocery store sells cigarette papers. Just go to the counter that sells cigarettes.

I have the best results with Zig-Zag brand papers. They are cheap too!


John

dstorm1911
November 25, 2006, 11:18 AM
been doing these for years, but with one small change. For those concerned about chainfires etc... add 5 grns of cream of wheat under the ball plus this places the ball higher in the chamber. I load 32 grns of 3F goex my Lyman and Euroarms 1858s will take a total 45 grns of 3F so with 32 grns powder + 5 grns of CW it sets the ball about 3/16" into the chamber or right at the end of the rammers stroke

Works great and never any misfires, here in Arizona grease doesn't work out very well it last a few seconds then just runs outa the cylenders. Instead I'll put some bore butter in 3 chambers in front of the balls when I first start shooting it keeps the gun well lubed for 60 rnds or so then do it again when I start to feel any stiffness in the action etc..

when compressed the cream of wheat makes a wad that combined with the tight fitting (shaved ring) .545 balls prevents any chainfire

CLB
January 1, 2007, 09:38 PM
I've noticed from some of the pictures previously posted that most have a filler added above their powder beneath the bullet. Some look to be almost equal to the powder charge in volume. Is there some reason for this? I've been shooting my Remington '58 for a few years now and I've always loaded my powder, a wonder wad (felt wad permeated with lube) then the ball. The wad protects against chain fires. Is all the extra filler I see being used done just to gain a lighter load or for facing the bullet closer to the cylinder face?

Duncaninfrance
January 2, 2007, 04:45 AM
Is all the extra filler I see being used done just to gain a lighter load or for facing the bullet closer to the cylinder face?

With the cartridge idea you are still going to have to ram the ball and there is the chance that the powder/wad would distort and so not compress in the chamber, leaving a void and thus a hang or misfire. By adding filler you reduce that possibility. That's my thoughts not a statement of pure fact :)

I have found, since making paper cartridges, that there is always some paper left in the chamber and that can be dangerous if it is smoldering so make sure that the chambers are clear BEFORE loading the next 6 cartridges.
I must admit that with my 1858 I now load out of the gun using pre-measured charges and a bench loader it's MUCH quicker:cool:

Afy
January 2, 2007, 06:11 PM
Using a compressed air can... like those sold to us geeks for cleaning out the crumbs from the keyboards, is very effective in ensuring that the chanbers are clear of any debris... IMHO.

However those cans arent the cheapest things around here in France....

CLB
January 3, 2007, 11:36 PM
How can loading your '58 out of the gun on a bench press be quicker than using paper cartridges? Unless you only shoot 6 shots and go home :what:

Duncaninfrance
January 4, 2007, 04:55 AM
Nothing to tear, no residual paper to remove from the chambers, better access to the chambers, more even pressure on the ball and easier fitting of the caps. Works for me and I shoot 36-54 rounds per range visit :D

CLB
January 5, 2007, 10:14 PM
Anyone here have something good to say about the Sharps paper cartridge carbines? I'm wondering if they have too many problems to bother with. I like the idea of a breech loading shooter that doesn't require brass cleaning, priming and resizing or buying. Seems like it can be a low overhead shooter as bullet and powder is about all there is to deal with. Making the paper cartridges would be easy enough to do and the paper is LOT cheaper than brass. I am concerned with the breech leaking that someone says develops after a couple hundred shots. Is the brass insert a solution to this? Mabey a replaceable shim on the bolt face to curtail the corrosion caused by the powder burn? Finally and most important, what is the accuracy expectation? I hope a satisfied user steps up and a disgruntled one too. I like to look at both sides of a coin :scrutiny:

Wwalstrom
February 6, 2007, 09:14 AM
Here are the materials needed ... note the sharpie marker.

Wrap a rolling paper around the marker shaft. In my case, the papers are gummed, wet the adhesive, and roll tightly around the marker.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/PaperCart/070203_PaperCartridges1.jpg

Pinch the end hanging over the bullet tip, using 3 fingers. Dab a bit of glue into each depression made by a finger, and then gently twist the end closed.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/PaperCart/070203_PaperCartridges2.jpg

Once you have a half dozen or so made, the first one should be dry.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/PaperCart/070203_PaperCartridges3.jpg

Pour in your powder charge, while holding the paper tube by the twisted end. I then drop in a ball, and tamp it down onto the powder with my measure.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/PaperCart/070203_PaperCartridges4.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/PaperCart/070203_PaperCartridges5.jpg

Twist off the ball end of the cartridge, with a bit more of glue. When they are dry, I snip off the ball end tail with a scissors, and place the completed cartridges in a plastic ammo box (.45ACP works well).

LubeckTech
February 6, 2007, 01:35 PM
For those wishing a lubricated bullet would it work to dip the bullet in to melted lube pill receipe either full immersion or half way and allow to cool before putting in the cartridge?

bigbore442001
March 20, 2007, 10:51 PM
I found this thread to be really fascinating. I do believe that tommorrow morning, I will head out and pick up a package of Zig Zag rolling papers and make up a bunch of pre-loaded rounds for the Ruger Old Army.

6_gunner
March 20, 2007, 11:02 PM
Well, I already converted my Rem' New Army to .45 colt and it'd be a shame to neglect that nice conversion cylinder.

I guess that means I'll have to go buy a Colt 1860 or a Walker so I can utilize this new information. Darn you all for making me spend more money! :-)

losoj30@yahoo.com
March 20, 2007, 11:36 PM
very interesting !! those papers come in packs of 32 i think what do you do with the leftovers? dont load black powder, but it was interesting!

TnRebel
March 25, 2007, 01:26 PM
does one brand of rolling paper do better then the rest ?

DuncanSA
April 1, 2007, 04:33 PM
A great thread which reflects how these weapons were probably used during the US civil disagreement.

I can't find cigarette papers wide enough to wrap the .45 ball of a 1860 Colt replica. Do you get wider papers in the US or were you using a .36 ball?

Duncaninfrance
April 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
I can't find cigarette papers wide enough to wrap the .45 ball of a 1860 Colt replica.

If you can't get any papers the right size either stick 2 together or PM me your address and I will mail you some packs of OCB Slim which are 4.25" x 1.75"

DuncanSA
April 2, 2007, 05:34 PM
Thanks. Here in Cape Town, South Africa, we only seem to have one size of cigarette papers. It was a kind thought, but posting cig. papers from France to Cape Town does not seem a practical long term proposition.

What I have been doing, and which speeds up the reloading process quite a bit, is making paper cartridges for the powder only. These load quickly, then I put one of Gateofeo's lube pills and a ball on top, ram and cap and am back in business much faster than with a powder flask.

If we are not careful we are going to re-invent fixed ammunition!!

Warren
April 2, 2007, 06:40 PM
And then if we do invent fixed ammo maybe we could invent some sort of tube like thing that would take the fixed ammo and load each piece one-by-one into a firing chamber.

This is a favorite thread of mine and I do not yet own any BP stuff.

I'd really love it if one of you guys could post a video of your shooting..reloading..shooting sequence.

Duncaninfrance
April 3, 2007, 04:35 AM
..but posting cig. papers from France to Cape Town does not seem a practical long term proposition.

It's no problem. At lease you would have a couple of packs to try and also match to if you could.
PM your address and I will be happy to send you a couple of packs.

Ed Gallop
April 6, 2007, 11:22 PM
I have been shooting a lot lately and experimented with the cigarette paper. I should have tested them before rolling so darn many of them (over 100 for 3 different revolvers). I concluded cigarette paper is not the paper to use. It is designed to burn slowly and that is a problem. I'll be looking for a thin, soft but tough paper that burns faster. The concept is great.

I found that large chunks of cigarette paper remains in the bottom of the cylinders about half the time, or more. I also found bits in various areas between the cylinder and frame or barrel but that wasn't a problem. Paper in the bottom had to be picked out though. It sometimes will block ignition if another paper cartridge is loaded on top of it. I had misfires I believe was caused by the paper, but after popping more caps it fired. Except for one occassion when a small hard packed piece (likely the twisted part) was lodged in the nipple. It was jammed so hard that I thought I was going to break the pick pushing on it.

I made a tapered wooden dowell perfect for wrapping cartridges. I wrapped the paper on the dowell, sealed it with a lick as if it was a joint ;-) and then twisted off the small end as I slid it off the dowell. I poured in the powder then dropped in the ball, seating itself in the cone. After twisting up against the ball tightly I tapped it on the table to move the powder to the ball and then twisted the small end tight enough that the twist could be cut almost completely off. Worked great, looked great, and loaded easily.

My son was shooting with me today and he came to the same conclusion. I'm interested in the opinions of others that have tried it. If I can find the right paper this method should work nicely, but I will not wrap so many next time. Ed.

Duncaninfrance
April 7, 2007, 04:31 AM
I'm interested in the opinions of others that have tried it...........

I have had the same experience as you Ed. You need to add a good combustible to the cartridge base so that it fires faster.
I must admit that I have gone back to loading a measured charge from a plastic container. Maybe I'll post a sequence of shots on a new thread if anyone is interested.

arcticap
April 7, 2007, 04:57 AM
I've been making paper cartridges for years but an additional step that I take is to "paint" each finished cartridge with nitrocellulose shellac. This can be easily made by dissolving a spoonful of regular smokeless powder in several spoonfuls of acetone (fingernail polish remover). Depending on the powder used it may take more or less acetone. Once I have a thin syrup I store it in a sealed glass container (the acetone evaporates quickly). Using a small childrens paintbrush I just paint each cartridge with a thin coat of it. Not only does this ensure reliable ignition without the use of a nipple pick, the paper is completely consumed. As an added benefit it also waterproofs them. I have been doing this for years and have never had a failure to fire.


http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2810616&postcount=109

Buy the cheapest box of .22 LR rounds at Walmart, pull the bullets with some pliers and that should give you enough smokeless powder to try this out. :)

Duncaninfrance
April 7, 2007, 01:46 PM
Pardon the pun!!
Must try that out, thanks arcticap. I suppose any re-loading smokeless powder would do? Might make some cartridges for my Baker Rifle as well now that I have some balls of the right size. :rolleyes:

Ed Gallop
April 8, 2007, 11:50 AM
Very interesting, Arcticap. I'll have to try it. Have you been using cigarette paper? If not, whay paper have you been using? Ed.

HammerBite
April 8, 2007, 05:59 PM
I just wanted everyone to know that while I was researching the development of the Dreyse needle guns I Googled "paper cartridge" and this thread came up numbers 1 and 2.

arcticap
April 8, 2007, 08:33 PM
Ed,
I don't have any BP revolvers yet, but here's some .22 LR powder collected from misfires. :)
The thickness of the paper used is probably limited by the diameter of the chamber and ball being loaded, although I've read that typewriter (or copy) paper works for making paper rifle cartridges.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56248&stc=1&d=1176075094

Ed Gallop
April 9, 2007, 12:34 AM
Guess I didn't understand. I thought you were making paper cartridges for black powder shooting and using smokeless for the solution used to coat the paper only. Never had any amount of smokeless in a black powder gun.

There is a big difference in loading cartridges in the front and the back of a cylinder that is made to accept cartridges. I'd have to remove the cylinder and load on a stand with hard paper that doesn't give way. That would not be practical.

When loading paper cartridges, the ramrod packs the paper, tearing it open as the ball is forced in, exposing the powder to the vent. I've had to use 2 caps sometimes, and it may have been needed to burn through the paper if blocking the powder. I may give the solution method (using black powder instead) and see if the paper burns away.

Actually, I like the idea of paper cartridges for black powder but it is easy to load a revolver the traditional way. It would be nice to have the convenience of premeasured powder on hand (with ball or not), and it is a fun project, but not likely will it be my normal loading method. Ed.

arcticap
April 9, 2007, 03:21 AM
Guess I didn't understand. I thought you were making paper cartridges for black powder shooting and using smokeless for the solution used to coat the paper only. Never had any amount of smokeless in a black powder gun.

I never used smokeless powder in a blackpowder gun either. I simply quoted post # 109 from this thread and posted a picture of what smokeless .22 powder looks like in response to a problem you experienced with paper cartidges that led you to say:
I concluded cigarette paper is not the paper to use.

There is a big difference in loading cartridges in the front and the back of a cylinder that is made to accept cartridges. I'd have to remove the cylinder and load on a stand with hard paper that doesn't give way. That would not be practical.


The heavier paper and procedures that I mentioned others use for loading paper rifle cartridges into the bore of muzzle loading rifles is described here:

http://webpages.charter.net/fam-strick/web/PaperPatch.htm

pascalp
April 9, 2007, 05:31 PM
Ed,
I've stopped twisting the bottom, now I only fold and glu with saliva. Three thickness of parer aren't a problem. No more missfire.
Fold is maybe less strong than twist, but I use 45acp case to protect paper during manufacturing and carrying.
I've also some unburned papers in the chamber, need a quick cleaning. Amazingly when I got a quite complete bottom, there is a nice burned hole in the center due to cap ignition.

J.T. Gerrity
April 9, 2007, 08:32 PM
These cartridges (loaded as target rounds with twenty grains of powder and fifteen grains of instant grits for filler) are made with cigarette paper. They work perfectly; never had a mis-fire, and load much faster than filling from a flask. The cig papers are pre-nitrated and need no other enhancement. I've tried them both ways... with and without the ball attached, and prefer not rolling the ball together with the powder; it's just faster to roll up several hundred of these without the ball, then add it at the range as I'm loading the cylinder. Just my own laziness, I guess. :) I twist the powder end shut sort of like a shotgun shell closure. Works great!


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56308&stc=1&d=1176160814

Duncaninfrance
April 10, 2007, 04:31 AM
That's interesting JT, what gun are you loading?

DrLaw
April 10, 2007, 10:24 PM
Well, so far, I have one done. Went to the local gas station/convenience store, got the strange looks and smiles, even after explaining what it was for.

Did the one in my car just before heading out to my kids' track meet.

This is interesting to try. I'll stop by again here after a few days when I shoot some of them to let you all know how they worked.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

DrLaw
April 11, 2007, 12:42 AM
18 done. Boy does this take some doing. I'm hoping this will be worth it. Unlike most of my contemporaries, I have not had to work with cigarette papers before. :rolleyes:

The Doc is going to bed now. :cool: Night all.

J.T. Gerrity
April 11, 2007, 12:46 AM
That's interesting JT, what gun are you loading?

I use these in the brass-framed '51 .44 Navy. It's easy to vary the "recipe" for my larger pistols: '60 Army (25gr BP, 10gr grits), Dragoon (40gr BP, 10gr grits) and the Walker (45gr BP, 15gr grits). I use a tube to make these rather than a dowel; easier to pour the filler and powder. :)

DrLaw
April 13, 2007, 08:16 PM
I've figured out an easier way to wrap the paper. I use a 7.62 x 54R Russian cartridge. Wrap the paper around it and lick the gum about where the ball will go. The brass forms a taper and the ball falls in about the same position as shown on those photos on the first page of this thread. I can do a lot of tubes in a short time this way, and have already filled up an empty Speer
Bullet box with the cartridges.

By the way, this is for .44's. I'll have to figure out what would work for a .36, and if I really get crazy about this, a .31! :what:

The Doc is out and happily loading now. :cool:

Ed Gallop
April 15, 2007, 01:57 PM
I folded, instead of twisting, as pascalp sugested and it helped a lot as far as not clogging nipples and less paper in the cylinder. Still looking for paper not designed to burn slowly, as is cigarette paper. I'm sure that the problem of paper left in the cylinder would be solved.

I carved and sanded a wooden dowel to fit all calibers and it is very easy to handle. Ed.

DrLaw
April 19, 2007, 12:34 AM
Took my 1860 Uberti with the cartridges I loaded to the range this evening for our club's .22 Rotten Egg Shoot (eggs hung from a string at 25 and 50 yards). :D

The cartridges worked well without a misfire for any of them. ;) I did have some problem getting all the powder into the chamber when some of the paper bunched up at the lip of the chamber when loading. I figure the answer for that is to shape the powder section into a smaller than the ball cone.

I did have some paper left in the chamber on several of the shots, but none of it was burning by the time I was reloading, and I was able to blow or pick out the remnants. I figure the problem here was from using a paper size that was bigger than what was used at the start of this thread. I used a 1.5 size paper since I got two sizes of paper having never made these paper cartridges before until I saw this thread a week or so back.

So all in all, I would call this a success. :D

The Doc is out now. :cool:

PS. I did nail one of the eggs from the 25 yard line. Those little suckers were blowing pretty good in the wind we had there tonight! :D :what: :eek: :D

Yankee John
April 19, 2007, 03:56 AM
Just wondering why this thread isn't a sticky any more? Invaluable information here moderators!

John

Steve499
April 19, 2007, 06:40 AM
It is, John, under Black Powder Essentials. Gary combined all the stickies under that heading but they are all still there.

Steve

DoDo
April 24, 2007, 10:19 PM
Hi all. This is my first post in this forum, my english is not very good so be patient with my misspelling.

I just wat to show how i made the paper cartridges, hope the photos do the work cause the text must be escarce.

Used materials:

The wood dovel is 10 mm diam. and has a film rolled to fix the paper in the proper point .
I use rice paper, fine and stronger than cellulose paper.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/376/cargasea5.jpg

First roll the paper in the dovel and gum only half lenght cause we need to work on the free end.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7254/cargas1gd8.jpg

I use to let about 6.5 mm of free paper, enough to close the cartridge without letting too much paper that may produce misfires.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1241/cargas2zn8.jpg

To close the cartridge we must fold the paper in three steps.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2121/cargas4ol4.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4779/cargas5zz5.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8937/cargas7ph7.jpg

The gumed side must be the last and rest in top. Finally gum this end and the full lengh in the side, the cartridge is almost done.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/126/cargas9dv5.jpg

Now we can fill with powder and semoline:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3088/cargas11hy4.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9733/cargas12cb4.jpg

The cartridge is strong enough to compress the carge shaking it , and dont need special care in its manipulation (but remenber is only paper).

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3916/cargas13hu4.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/363/cargas15he3.jpg

Some finised cartridges in a 9 mm Para box, used for storage and transport.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4995/cargas16ur5.jpg

And a shooting test at 25 m (better shooter, better results, but is fine for me):

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8134/cimg1156yl4.jpg

The last step could be to treat with the acetone-nitropowder i have read in this thread, a teammate did it and shoot till the revolver is completely fouled with no misfires (Just tell what he said to me).

This is all i can contribute to this interesting thread, hope it can help someone. Cya guys.

Yankee John
April 25, 2007, 01:47 AM
Excellent pictorial- and WELCOME!!

John

E-4forever
April 28, 2007, 05:14 PM
What about doing some sort of of buckshot or buck and ball load like this. I know that civil war loads such as that existed. Any idea's?

Duncaninfrance
April 29, 2007, 04:36 AM
Very good post DoDo and good photos. Thanks and enjoy your stay.

Boom-stick
August 24, 2007, 06:39 AM
I made some of these last night for my ROA, the first 7 went wrong, when I tried to load them the paper bunched up and split, I had made them too short and fat.

For the next batch I tapered them using my Mil-Tac TD pen as a former for the paper cones and it worked a treat.:D

They are a bit long but compress nicely under the rammer.

40gns of 777 and no filler.

CLB
August 25, 2007, 01:26 PM
What's an ROA ? hmmmm? You guys need to post a "sticky" for all the abbrev. you use. KWIM? It's ok if you can't spell real gud!

Steve499
August 25, 2007, 03:36 PM
What's an ROA ?

Ruger Old Army.

KWIM? Beats me.

KevininPa
August 25, 2007, 06:48 PM
There actually is a reason for me to need ZigZags again! After all these years of abstaining from rolling my own j.....er........um......cigs; yea...cigarettes! That's what I mean!
BTW, wouldn't the paper tear when you ram it anyway? Thus not needing any special paper for ignition? Just a thought.


Have a great weekend!

Kevin in Pa

Aries-
August 26, 2007, 06:25 PM
would these be good to use with a rifle ? (70 grains of 2 or 3f). wouldent need a wad as its a flat bottomed bullet.

would make it faster and easyer to reload while hunting. have a few of them packed up in little plastic tubes so i could just drop them down the barrel. and will musket caps perforate the paper on the end ? (also would it work on a flintlock)

TnRebel
August 26, 2007, 09:21 PM
what kind of semoline do you use DoDo and where do you get it ?:confused:

barman
August 27, 2007, 03:33 AM
It looks like normal medium grain semoline you can find in any grocery store.

DoDo
August 28, 2007, 08:19 PM
Barman is correct. Is normal semoline bought in a supermarket near my house. The cashier must think that I am a great fan of the soup of semoline.

Best regards.

DoDo
August 28, 2007, 08:48 PM
Aries, the musket caps sure will perforate the paper (Though it can cause delays in the shot, I have not tried it). There are other things that you have to consider.

First, has your rifle the same inside diameter in the whole barrel? Or it is narrower in the botton. In the last case the paper cartridge was leaving an empty space that can originate overpressure , very dangerous.

Second, if the paper is not trated to be self-combustible, remains will stay in the interior that they can prevent the ignition in the following shot, in addition they are more complicated to extract in a long barrel.

Hope yu can understan me, this online translator is terrible.

Best regards.

Aries-
August 29, 2007, 12:24 AM
barrel is the same size all the way down.

with the ammount of powder used in a rifle it should burn up the thin rollies fairly easy.


your easy enough to understand. (other than rifle coming off as cannon )

Pulp
August 31, 2007, 12:36 AM
Hello to all. I just joined the forum, primarily because of this thread. It has been very informative. I've tried a few paper cartridges, haven't had much luck, but I may try again. Dixie Gun Works used to sell a little book about making paper cartridges, don't know if they still do.

I think my biggest problem was fat cartridges, like others have posted. In the Dixie book, they said to turn a dowel rod down on one end so it is tapered. I didn't do that, I reckon I ought to follow instructions.

CLB
September 1, 2007, 12:52 AM
KWIM = "Know what I mean?"

chad1043
September 7, 2007, 11:35 PM
OK, I'm just learning and this might sound like a stupid question, but do you still use the plunger on the round to seat everything when you use paper wraps?

Chad

dstorm1911
September 8, 2007, 02:19 AM
yep as ya still have to press that ball in tight ovr the powder..... your simply wrappin everything up in paper to make loading faster and simpler as well as safer...... Myself I make my own felt wads from heavy felt I simmer lube into em then drop em in straight parafin real fast just to get a light coating I then load em under the ball with a card stock wad between the lubed wad and the powder the wax coating keeps the lube from soakin into the paper or the powder makes for real fast reloads and still have my lubed wad in the mix.....

can't use lube pills or grease out here in the AZ heat it just melts. However the wads squish out the lube when fired as they are compressed between the card stock and the ball....... some people say they can't load paper cartridges in colts very well but I have no problem with any of my Remmies or Colts loading these at 35 grns 3F +card stock wad + 1/8" thick felt wad + .454 round ball all twisted tight at each end then excess paper trimmed off, I spin the bottom open as I drop em into the chambers to insure fast ignition everytime with Remington #11 caps , twisting the ends makes assembly much faster and it only takes a flick of finger/thumb to open the end as ya drop em in

4v50 Gary
September 15, 2007, 01:28 PM
DoDo - your photo essay is outstanding. The cornmeal filler is a trick that some modern rifle users also use. It keeps the blackpowder up around the nipple and from spilling around in an otherwise void in the cylinder. This means more consistent burning and more consistent internal ballistics.

szabotom
September 16, 2007, 04:17 PM
Hi DoDo! I see your excelent pictures. You allow it that let me steal them for a Hungarian black powder e-magazine?

Best regards.

Tamás Szabó

Budapest Hungary

TheGunslinger
September 16, 2007, 11:52 PM
I rolled a bunch today with 30 grains of BP using a sharpie and Zig Zags that just happened to be around:)

They worked GREAT in my 1860 Army model, no problems of any kind, and no left over paper in the cylinder. I fired 24 of them. I would say that reload time is cut almost in half. Thanks for the informative post!!!

FSCJedi
October 29, 2007, 06:50 AM
I can't help but notice this thread is very .44 cal. friendly. Has anyone found a good tapered dowel or other tool to use for making .36 cal. paper cartridges? I don't exactly have access to a lathe.

FSCJedi
October 29, 2007, 06:59 AM
Oh, and since it was asked about/mentioned, here's (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1759) the book that Dixie Gun Works has about making paper cartridges.

Millwright
October 29, 2007, 08:04 PM
Great Post !! I'll have to try this on.....

Right now, though, I'm more in need of the right way to 'roll y'r own' for a .58 Springfield...... Seeking suggestions on paper, lube, etc. >MW

Chubbo
October 29, 2007, 08:29 PM
Hi, FSCJedi:
If you don't have a lathe, as I do not anymore, take the right size dowell, that you can get at any Home Depot, or like store, and chuck the dowell in a drill press, or hand drill, fastened down. then using a file and sand paper taper the dowell with the file ,and sand paper. This is not as good a method as using a lathe, but it works in a pinch.
Thanks for the heads up on the paper cartridge book from Dixie.
I sure would like to see some of the old original cartridges, and their packaging, as I would like to make some of them to use in the presintation cases that I build for my Colt revolvers. I have made some lables and fake combustable cartridge packages, but I would like to make real ones.
Chubbo

FSCJedi
November 3, 2007, 11:39 AM
Thanks Chubbo! That sounds like something I can actually do! And no prob about the Dixie book. Share and share alike, I say! :)

Norseman_01
November 6, 2007, 08:22 PM
"Ask, and ye shall recieve..."

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/wrappers_primer.htm

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/images/wrap-lift-top-2.jpg

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/images/wrap-lift-top-1.jpg

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/images/wrap-split.jpg

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/images/wrap-sage.jpg

The 7th hole in the blocks (since it only says SIX cartridges and not SEVEN) is to hold the percussion caps.

Chubbo
November 7, 2007, 08:34 AM
Hi, Norseman:
Thanks for the pictures. They show me how they were put into wooden blocks with holes in them. I am going to try to make some of them, some time along with the many other things that i will never find time to do.
Chubbo

Kimber1911_06238
November 7, 2007, 08:44 AM
Excuse my ignorant question. When putting the paper cartridge in the cylinder, isn't it going to be a tight fit? Is it tight enough to break the paper where it is wrapped around the ball? I can see myself trying to jam the paper cartridge in and ripping the paper, spilling bp everywhere.

Docinfrance
November 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
Hi kimber.
I've been reading this thread from pge one (it was my introduction to this forum) and the way I see it the tolerances don't have to be too 'tight'.

Would not a slightly longer and thinner cartridge with the right load in it 'deform' slightly in the chamber when rammed home to take up the correct dimensions?
This would cause slight 'rippling' to the paper walls inside the chamber but not so much that I could see it effecting powder combustion.

Please tell me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty much a novice with BP.

Shureshot
November 14, 2007, 07:13 PM
I use a .53 wooden dowell and double-wide Zig-Zags or J & B papers. 115 grains fills the chamber on my Sharpes perfectly.

.44walkersabot
November 14, 2007, 10:08 PM
That's pretty cool. Good photographs of the procedure to. I don't know if I could do it or not with my old blunt and awkward fingers but sometime within the next 2 weeks I'm going to give it a shot..

bigbadgun
November 15, 2007, 01:18 PM
I have been trying different things and for my Walker I have done this and it works well.
Take a 7/16th dowl and dish out one end this is where the ball sits while rolling J&B papers are perfect sit the ball in the dish and roll paper around dowl pull paper off dowl ball is where it needs to be holds 50gr with room to spare and top it off with a wonder wad after loading works good and fast.

fatmanforprez
January 10, 2008, 12:35 PM
I have been experimenting on getting my cartridge making skills down and i have found that the best form for me was an obvious and nearby one.

I took the thumbscrew off my little brass powder measure, it fits in the chamber perfectly and ensures I glue the right amount of zigzag. I make a tube with it a little loose on the measure (as it allows the ball to fit better but I still get the benefit of a solid form). i then take the last inch or so and I drop my ball in (measure still in tube) and adjust the position of the measure until the ball is just barely covered. I then wet and wrap the paper around the ball and remove the measure. I then put a twisted seal between the ball and powder. Fill with powder and grits and twist close.

With this method my cartridges slide smoothly in the cylinder, but do not extend above it and appear to seat the ball perfectly.

I now have a little .45ACP loading box filled with a few different variations of my paper cartridges awaiting a range trials with my 1851 Colt replica this weekend. I will post range results of course.

*** Range Report - I made 4 types of paper cartridges, one with ball grits and powder charge, one with ball and powder charge, one with just grits and powder charge, one with just the powder charge.

I found that the accuracy was not noticeably effected and loading the paper cartridges was dead simple. There was no problem with debris in the cylinder, however there was a noticeable amount of flaming paper blow back. I found that the loads with grits to ensure a fully packed cylinder did not differ noticeably from the loads without grits. There were very few (like 2 out of 24) hang fires with the balled cartridges, and the hang was just barely noticeable. The non-balled cartridges (which had a folded flat instead of twisted base) all had hang fires (I only tried 6 due to this).

In the future it will be balled cartridges only and i will try the nitro-laquer method to ensure lack of hang fires. I am also going to look into getting some better nitrated paper, perhaps making my own.

Smoke Stick by Five
January 26, 2008, 08:37 PM
Try a AAA battery to roll papers on. insert ball or bullet. pour powder after dryin' in holder box. pack tight, pinch end and glue shut with Elmers white School glue. Load pointed end towards back, pick thru nipple before cappin' and bang goes the drum no hang fires with DWS caps (hotter spark)

scalper
March 21, 2008, 03:24 PM
Ditto. This is the greatest thread I have read anywhere in a long time.

Gonna get some cigarette papers now. Just need to figure out where to buy them since I really don't want to go to the local "Song and Bong" :D

DrLaw
March 21, 2008, 03:59 PM
Try any convenience store gas station.

And for an answer to a couple posts ago, the answer is no, tight fit aside, you will not have powder falling everywhere. Remember to taper the part of the paper where the powder is in. Ramming it into the cylinder will split the paper to expose the powder.

I've tried this with success in .44 and .36 so far. No real problems except for an occaisional bang --- BOOM as the cap ignites something, that then sets off the powder a fraction of a second later. Nothing that bothers accuracy, just something to notice because it is - unusual.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

oldelm
March 21, 2008, 07:09 PM
I've had fun making paper cartridges, and fashioned some matchbook type boxes to store them in, such as this original box made by Merrill....

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/images/wrap-merrill.jpg

...that photo is on the same page of that Thomaspublications link which Norseman_01 posted (thanks :))

These are a few of the boxes I've made to hold the paper cartridges....

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image15b-1.jpg

The matchbook style is great, because you don't have to tear it open to use it, and they serve as carrying boxes for the cartridges into the field or the range, or can be used in the display case,...looking just like the originals using various copies of original labels.

I made my own nitrated paper for the cartridges, using Bugler cig. paper soaked in solution of Potassium Nitrate bought on eBay. I used tapered dowels making them , following Sgt.John Chapman's instructions in his tutorial on this webpage....

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=326.0

That's on the Open Range site, Blackpowder Reference Library. There's some good info there , which will add to all the input which has been brought to this great thread.:D

dmb3006
March 21, 2008, 11:36 PM
I just had to try to make some of these paper cartridges.Looking around the shed for something to roll the tissure paper I was using.I pulled the rod out of my powder trickler;and used it.Had kids school glue.and made 12 I can't wait to try them out

scalper
March 29, 2008, 12:41 AM
I just found a guy on EBay selling French Light rolling papers in a huge box of 24 packages (30+ papers) $17 with free shipping. Heck of deal, and even saved the embarassment of explaining the reason for my purchase to a live clerk. :-) LOL

OLDELM - those little boxes you made are really cool. Did you photocopy an old label or something? They look like a conversation generator at the range, that is for sure!

Mike Weber
April 28, 2008, 06:23 AM
Great Thread!
I'm in the process of making some nitrated paper cartridges for my .58 Cal. guns. I'm using Onionskin typing paper otherwise known as tracing paper. I'm currently awaiting delivery of my potasium nitrate. I made an aluminum dowell for forming the cartridges on one of the lathes at work. I really like those cartridge boxes. Where did you find a copy of the original labels? I might like to try making some cartridge boxes for my .44 Percussion revolvers. Those boxes look great.

scalper
April 28, 2008, 11:11 AM
I have attached several of the labels that I am using on my paper cartridge boxes since I don't have copies of the real thing. If you do use them, try printing them on an specialty paper that is tinted brown for an older appearance. I have 31 cal, 36 cal, and 44 cal. Let me know if you want any other calibers as I can easily change the text and then reprint the PDF. They may not be authentic, but it was as good as I could do. Enjoy!

Mike Weber
April 28, 2008, 06:04 PM
Scalper:
Thanks for the labels. I'll see what I can come up with for specialty paper to produce an antique look.

loboloco
April 29, 2008, 01:00 AM
Howdy to all. Just joined this forum, mostly for the info I'm finding about bp shooting.

I found a brass frame Pietta Rem 1858 at a pawn shop in Arizona last year, but the derned local shop didn't carry any supplies for it. Recently, here in Denver, I have been putting things together piece by piece, and I was wondering if a wonder wad is a good idea in these here cartridges.

While I'm wonderin' about supplies, is Shockey's Gold FFFg a suitable powder, or should I get some pyrodex? And has anyone here tried the 30 grn pellets? Are they worth the money, or should I just roll my own, er..."lead doobies" - (fatmanforprez) One more thing...does a sharpie marker make a better taper than a 7/16" in dowel rod?

Any and all responses are greatly appreciated - Lobo Loco

scrat
April 29, 2008, 11:48 PM
i guess i have to give this a shot again. last time i thought they looked great. but when i went to load them. the powder bunched up and would not load correctly. too thick i believe

stevekl
May 29, 2008, 11:22 PM
Okay so I bought some rolling papers, the Tops brand.

Is this a good brand? It's all I could find, although I only went to one store (Walgreen's)

Would a 3/8" dowl make a good 'former' for .457 roundballs?

Chubbo
June 25, 2008, 07:39 PM
Hi, All:
I have been going over some of the pictures of old combustable paper cartridg packes. Oldelm posted pictures of the lables of some of his cartridge packs, in post#192.
Norseman 01 posted pictures of old oridginal packs in post #181. could I get you guys or anyone else to send me pictures of these packs, and the outside dimentions of the original packs? I can not download pictures from this forum. I would like to make some of the Packs to put in cases that I build for my BP revolvers. I have been able to make lables for the Eley/Colt cap tins, but need lables for the cartridge packs, or Skins, as some call them.
Thanks.
Chubbo

1858rem
August 29, 2008, 11:46 AM
howdy! i have loaded these for about a year the way was mentioned in the first page... but lately i found if you cut a zig zag in half along the crease you can roll 2 cartridges with 25 grains of 777 and a rb or conical. you roll around the dowel with about 3/8 of the tip of the ball showing and wet the paper and gummed edge to hold it all together. by the time you have this done there is barely enough room for more then 25 grains 777 which is a decant load for prolonged shooting with no jams. but you very carefully twist the end of the powder side with your fingernails and wet it a little to make it stay, but also making it very fragile. if you have the 45 acp box it will not break.... except for when you load it, then it will unravel at the powder end spilling the powder into the cylinder and having no chance of blocking the flame from the primer :evil:

kungfuhippie
November 16, 2008, 09:43 PM
Just found this thread. Got a Remington Army replica on Friday and couldn't get out to shoot it Saturday. Now I know how I'll be spending my evenings this week, preparing for next weekend...

The attractive girl at the gas station is gonna think I'm a stoner, that goes to work really early every day...

BPR
November 18, 2008, 02:03 PM
Here's a link to an article and video on making paper cartridges for revolvers.

http://www.blackpowderrevolver.net/page3.html

gotgcoalman
November 19, 2008, 03:41 PM
Been using same thing for a rifle(use the king size papers)

B00SS
November 20, 2008, 04:54 PM
This would make a good "sticky."

scrat
November 20, 2008, 05:09 PM
there already is. close this and look at the top first post. says black powder essentials. its right there.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769

riverdog
January 2, 2009, 07:01 PM
Very new to black powder firearms (Uberti Rem 1858 inbound as I type) and Zig-Zag/French light rolling papers are an unfamiliar item to me. However, making up paper cartridges seems to make a lot of sense and should make handling reloads in the field much easier.

That said, what is the best source for the papers? Amazon sells Zig Zag 1.25 Cigarette Rolling Papers (http://www.amazon.com/1-25-Cigarette-Rolling-Papers-24-Pack/dp/B000TR9SJS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1230936071&sr=8-2) as well as ZIG ZAG 1.0 ROLLING PAPERS (http://www.amazon.com/ZIG-ZAG-ROLLING-PAPERS-BOOKLETS/dp/B000VFPM7U/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1230936071&sr=8-1). They've also got ZIG ZAG 1 1/4 ORANGE SLOW BURNING (http://www.amazon.com/ZIG-ZAG-ORANGE-BURNING-BOOKLETS/dp/B000VFOH3K/ref=pd_sbs_misc?ie=UTF8&qid=1230936071&sr=8-1) but I'd guess those are the wrong ones to get as a faster burn would probably be better. What's teh difference between 1.0 and 1.25? Assuming that's a size, is bigger better or what?

Any problems with using the papers with Goex Pinnacle FFFG powder?

TIA, great thread.

BlackNet
January 2, 2009, 08:19 PM
http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge1.html
http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge2.html

This is a very similar method. I use cigarette paper with little problems at all.

jeffsenpai
January 4, 2009, 04:51 AM
great thread. lots of good info!

jmaubin
January 4, 2009, 06:53 AM
Question, Have any of you made these with a "felt wad" ( I perfer to use these over lard), and if so how did it work out?

1858rem
January 4, 2009, 10:41 AM
i haven't tried it with felt wads, but if you will be shooting soon after you make the cartridges, lube pills seem to work fine but over time turned my paper clearish like the melted a little so i did not shoot em.....took about a summer week~80-90f i think to melti-sh em

Dr. Strangelove
February 26, 2009, 12:00 AM
Thanks for this great thread, I'll be shooting my Remington much more now, and finally using up all those papers I had lying around from days gone by...

By the way, I found that my AAA size Mini-Maglight© makes a perfect rolling form. (I tried my old rolling machine, just wouldn't do the job!) 1.5's seem to work the best for my purposes.

husker
February 26, 2009, 02:18 AM
chiech-n-chong would be very proud. moma allways said i looked like a tree hugin hipey with those zig zags on the dash board of my old f-150

Smokin_Gun
February 26, 2009, 03:20 AM
Looks can be decieving, it's what's inside that counts :O)
Either way it's about up in smoke...

Boom-stick
June 4, 2009, 11:51 AM
FWIW, I roll my papers round the end of a Mil-tac TDP Pen, seal up the thin end drop in the powder and then drop the ball in. The taper on the pen lets me insert the rolled "cartridges" a bit easier into the cylinder.

oam
June 4, 2009, 06:29 PM
hello,

very interesting thread.

i have nearly the same method than DODO but i cut the paper before. I just let the part whith glue as you see here:
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0329.jpg
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0330.jpg
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0331.jpg
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0332.jpg
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0335.jpg
http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier/IMGP0341.jpg

my tutorial was posted originnaly here : http://urrp.free.fr/poudre_noire/cartouches_papier

i'm french, i hope you'll understand my english :)

alemonkey
June 6, 2009, 02:14 AM
Question, Have any of you made these with a "felt wad"

I just rolled up my first ever 12 paper cartridges and I used felt wads under the balls. Wads are 1/8" felt, soaked in a 50/50 paraffin/crisco mix. I used nitrated phone book paper.

I used a punch that happened to have a handle the same size as a .380 ball. I used a paint brush to first apply a little thinned Elmer's glue to the edge of the paper, then wrapped it around the punch. I then inserted a felt wad with a ball on top, then twisted shut the ball end.

Then I charged with 20 grains of powder. On the last 4 or 5 I started just folding the powder end over and holding it down with a little dab of glue, rather than twisting it shut. I feel like this will end up with a thinner layer of paper on the powder end than if it's twisted shut. Hopefully this will lead to more reliable ignition. Plus, it was a lot quicker and less likely to tear. I'll be sure to post my results both with the wads and the folded vs. twisted ends.

Tango2
October 22, 2009, 03:13 AM
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/39613798aac29fbaf650f226ac633a26.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/656f30139b5e3e7597fb5c56a12c332f.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/55bf5dff7aa38febf20867492811e3e2.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/e809d96f65ffdd10a3c6e1fae16ba148.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/c696168b61377d34d25263c08aad7791.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/676654b00a04d2c4991769bd246fe222.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/40a3df5a0f4db0d311c7cd1754da8824.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/35438428de09a01ffdb17026739bc827.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/f53a190a21d51fa410a2928960b9e808.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/5078bae06d05740d701cfd764a85f958.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/c94344bc95e60eeea43046b799dad138.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/646a0eea55521d7dad2a67fa258bfe85.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/2944522a855624b212df1f20d932e658.JPG
http://www.blackpowder.lt/data/storage/attachments/84308b4a973a5901dc0b439239485376.JPG:)

Oyeboten
October 22, 2009, 11:34 PM
They look like Pupae..!


Well...I'm going to go try rolling some myself...


Later Edit:


http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/43510/2556122470067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2556122470067835264ZkgAqM)


Atually, have 12 rounds made up...30 grain, 'Grease-Pill', & Ball...

Oyeboten
October 23, 2009, 10:32 PM
Well...went out to the Range and tried them out.


They worked good, but, the Twisted Ends seemed to impair effeciant combustion, so, I'm going to try a one-layer folded end, and, a thinner forming 'tube', so the Cartridge will slip in to the Cylinder Bore easier, and, so the Paper will tear when the Cartridge is compressed in the Cylinder Bore.

Smokin_Gun
October 23, 2009, 11:30 PM
Bring a homemade nipple pick ... (smaller paperclip filed to a point) poke each flashole before cappin'.
Usually does the trick...

Oyeboten
October 23, 2009, 11:39 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...good idea..!

WALKERs210
February 1, 2010, 11:15 PM
I found this tread and was amazed at how easy it was. I started experimenting with different dowels sizes and wound up taking a FELT TIP Marker pen apart and used the barrel which worked out to a perfect size for my 44cal. Then I went through my collection of retractable pens with mics and found one that was .490 outside diam. Cut both ends off and just left a tube. Now I just roll the paper around leaving it every so slightly loose when the glue dries I push the tube back enough to put the ball in and twist the end. Then from the open end of tube I pour in the measured powder and slowly pull the paper off and then twist the end. So far works great.

zaboomafoozarg
February 4, 2010, 08:29 PM
Quick question: would this work for a muzzle loading pistol?

Like a kentucky traditions??

TomADC
February 4, 2010, 09:00 PM
I'd still like to try this using flash paper. Magic shops carry it.

arcticap
February 5, 2010, 01:09 AM
Quick question: would this work for a muzzle loading pistol?

Like a kentucky traditions??

No, it's not intended to work in single shot muzzle loaders especially those having a drum ignition system. Generally the paper cartridge needs to be opened up and then the powder would need to be poured into the barrel.
The right size balls can then be paper patched or the paper can be rammed and used as an over powder wad.

If the design of the flash channel of a single shot gun allowed for a wire to be inserted to pierce the paper cartridge, and/or if a few grains of powder were to be placed under the nipple to enhance ignition, then it's possible that the percussion cap flame could be strong enough to reliably ignite a powder charge. But even that method would make for a more tedious loading process which is in opposition to the purpose of preparing paper cartridges in advance in the first place.
Even having a delayed ignition after loading a paper cartridge is not optimal so it's not recommended to load them into single shot muzzle loaders because of that distinct possibly. :)

TheRodDoc
February 21, 2010, 01:45 PM
I only have 36 cal. ball and cap revolvers but this should work for many other cal's.

I don't use a paper cartridge for its not near as easy as this method. To me the paper cartridge isn't worth the effort.
I would show you the real thing but all my gun stuff is packed away from the 70's. So I drew a 3d drawing of the method I used to use.

This is how I do it.

I don't use a grease wad under the ball ever. Only on top of the ball.

I made some boxes like the drawing with a sliding lid. inside is a block of wood with holes drilled for 38 mag. cases to fit into. leave plenty of the case above the block to get a hold of to pull them out. Also enough room between the rows to get your thumb and forefinger around each one. 6 to a row.

Make sure they are fired cases.... With the spent primer still in them.

Load your charge into each case.

A 36 cal. ball will sit right on top of the case. The lid slides right over the ball it can't fall off. Make sure your lid fits right almost on the balls. If the lid fits right the powder can't get out of the cases.

If you want to weather proof them then all you have to do is dip each ball into melted paraffin. let harden then set the ball down on each case.


slide the lid on. Now to use just slide the lid back to get at the first row. pull a case out with the ball on it. bring the case and ball up to the muzzle. push the ball off on to the muzzle with your thumb to hold it. Then dump the powder into the cylinder. drop the case and grab the ball of the muzzle and set it on cylinder mouth. ram it home. All done with one hand. Other holding gun barrel up.
With practice you will get fast at it.

116168

jgray
August 28, 2010, 10:30 PM
Hi guys,
Been fooling around with these paper cartridges since I got my b & c revolvers this spring.
Probably have shot around three hundred of them so far. Had a few delayed rounds in the beginning, and a few that required a second hit with a fresh cap to set them off, but I found it was because the cap was not fully seated on the nipple or the paper tail of the cartridge had been left too long and it blocked the hole of the nipple. Used regular primers in the the first few firings; have since switched to mag caps since then and have had no ignition problems after the switch to the mag caps which seem to burn right through the paper no problem. I noticed that if I used regular caps, and I pricked the end of the cartridge with a nipple pick that it eliminated any of the aforementioned problems too. Making the cartridges does take a little preparation time, but it saves time for me at the range, as I simply drop them into the chambers, ram them down, cap, and then fire away: really quicker than pouring powder from the flask, dropping a wad and ball (or just a ball), and then ramming it down. I like them and they work for me.

Regards,

jgray

jgray
August 28, 2010, 10:31 PM
Hi guys,
Been fooling around with these paper cartridges since I got my b & c revolvers this spring.
Probably have shot around three hundred of them so far. Had a few delayed rounds in the beginning, and a few that required a second hit with a fresh cap to set them off, but I found it was because the cap was not fully seated on the nipple or the paper tail of the cartridge had been left too long and it blocked the hole of the nipple. Used regular primers in the the first few firings; have since switched to mag caps since then and have had no ignition problems after the switch to the mag caps which seem to burn right through the paper no problem. I noticed that if I used regular caps, and I pricked the end of the cartridge with a nipple pick that it eliminated any of the aforementioned problems too. Making the cartridges does take a little preparation time, but it saves time for me at the range, as I simply drop them into the chambers, ram them down, cap, and then fire away: really quicker than pouring powder from the flask, dropping a wad and ball (or just a ball), and then ramming it down. I like them and they work for me.

Regards,

jgray

Bluehawk
August 29, 2010, 03:29 AM
with holes drilled for 38 mag. cases

ya do mean .357 magnum cases ...correct??

I would show you the real thing but all my gun stuff is packed away from the 70's.

Doc, ya saying ya haven't shot BP since the 1970's???????

the Black Spot
August 29, 2010, 06:20 PM
i have rolled some with a felt wad inside between powder and ball, works ok for me. just my 2 pennies.

Hezekiah
August 31, 2010, 03:08 PM
I am grateful you mad e the effort and posted this training. I know it was alot of work. I tried this last night, and cannot wait to put fire to the cartridges I made. Thank you!

timuchin
October 13, 2010, 11:18 PM
I can't believe this thread is still going. I never have problems with the tail clogging the nipples on my 58 remington. I would think that if you are having problems with this you are probably not clipping them short enough. I have found that a nail clipper is actually more of a precise tool for this than scissors. You can clip the tail amazingly short without compromising the structural integrity of the cartridge. If you have rolled it tight enough the paper will split and expose the powder when you ram the ball down. I used to do this with a .36 navy also. Same technique, but it helped to trim the paper a little with scissors so that there wasn't a huge overlap. You can preshape the paper with a mandrel if you want, but I found that I could go just as fast without one. I thought the guy using the sharpie was pretty clever though. I guess there is really no one way to do this, everyone has their own technique that works best for them. Anyway, it's good to see people trying this and having success with it.

Fokker Triplane
June 27, 2011, 10:52 PM
Hey guys I''m the new kid on the block: SO hello all!! How I call this very good information. I never heard of this before. I really like that way of loading a cap & ball revolver. I just sent the wife out to pick up some rolling papers. When Jackie gets back I'm going to make about 24/30 rds. Thank you for the idea. Mike

ElvinWarrior
June 28, 2011, 05:52 PM
What???

No little bright red and gold cigar type band to tease it all up???

Shux....

LOL !!!

Beautiful job !!! They look very professionally done !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

CharlesK80
July 1, 2011, 10:26 PM
FOKKER, do you have a Dr1? Or just a fan, like me?

TheWall
August 25, 2011, 06:28 PM
Has anyone used the paper cartridges for the Pietta 1851 Colt Navy in .36 caliber?

What load do you use?

Thanks. I am getting the rolling papers this weekend and will try to make some...

black_powder_Rob
August 25, 2011, 11:01 PM
@ Thewall, I use them all the time in mine. I usually use about 20 grs of BP with no wad. I find that instead of folding them over like some do I just twist the ends and wet them a little bit. just enough to get the paper to stick together. I l8r then snip a little off of the tip. at the range the paper just goes into chamber up to the ball and when you compress it tears the paper car. open (at least I think it does.) and she goes bang every time. keep in mind the 36 is pretty narrow so you will want a some what conical shape to the paper, tapered from the ball down. good luck and have fun.:D

TheWall
August 29, 2011, 06:13 PM
Okay -- I finally got around to doing this for my Pietta Colt Navy. I was able to roll 36 cartridges. I used a .376 round ball, about 17 grains of Goex 3FG and french rolling papers. I found it easier to use a small pencil as a dowel, then gently push the bullet in. As I twisted the end with the powder I tapered it a little. I messed about 7 or 8, but toward the end got the hang of it. They ain't that purty, but I think they will work. I am going to test them out tomorrow at the range with my son. I am sure he will appreciate the quicker re-load time...

black_powder_Rob
August 31, 2011, 12:27 AM
good luck hope it goes well.

TheWall
August 31, 2011, 08:01 PM
Took my 9 yr old son to the range today to have him shoot my Pietta 1851 Colt Navy using my homemade cartridges.

He fired 42 rounds with no misfires! The cartridges worked great. The few early ones I made were a little "chubby" and did not fit well (too big). But most of them fit perfectly and all fired no problem, no delays.

And the kid shot well again! Not bad for only the 4th time he ever shot (see pics below). You may not be able to see in the pic, but he almost got a bullseye. All shots were from 25 yds, seated.

The cartridges held 17 grains of Goex 3fg w/.375 round ball. I used Crisco over the balls to prevent chain fire and for lubrication. Worked great -- never had to clean the gun between loading.

I am hooked on cartridges! Makes loading at the range a lot easier.

alsaqr
August 31, 2011, 08:15 PM
Thanks to the OP for this fine thread.

skidder
October 4, 2011, 07:52 PM
thanks! timuchin.

I told both my boys I would get him an 1851 navy if they got on the honor roll. I've never loaded BP before and stumbled on your thread, we are all looking forward to the upcoming event.

:)

PrivateerEn96
October 23, 2011, 09:52 PM
I did a cross between what DoDo and Oam did, without the ball (like DoDo's method). I found it easier for me to work without the ball, and the paper "held" better with Oam's little "tab" folding under the bottom. I tried making it with the ball, they came out OK, but the ones without the ball came out far better.

Making these things was surprisingly easy. Either way you go, you will go through the learning curve very quickly. The hardest part was finding the papers! Tried several places and couldn't find them. Went to a drug store that carries "loose" tobacco supplies, asked the clerk for the papers, and she didn't even know what I was talking about! As I walked out the store, a guy who over-heard the conversation directed me to the only place on our side of town that carries them, a small gas station that I never go to. Sure enough, they had 'em. I used the Zig-Zag 1.25's that were mentioned in earlier post.

Also, found (by accident) that six cartridges fit perfectly in a mini Altoids tin. Place 4 on bottom row, and stack 2 on top. The lid kind of compresses them slightly, but doesn't damage them. Will "field test" next weekend....

This is a very cool thread!! Thanks to all posters for sharing your info!!

151421

Tinpan58
October 25, 2011, 12:17 AM
The thing I do different is after I cut the ends down on the cartridges, I dip the ends in some rubber cement works great and have had no ignition problems or fouling problems and the cartridges are very durable and never leak powder.

Foto Joe
October 25, 2011, 11:56 AM
I've been "Rolling My Own" for a while now. It's got nothing to do with historical accuracy and a lot to do with making life easier when going out to shoot. There are times when I like to take the bike out to shoot and carting around a heavy shooting box on the back of a motorcycle is a pain. Pre-made paper cartridges mean less "stuff" has to go with me when I shoot.

When I first started making paper cartridges, I included the round ball in the cartridge. What I found out was that there are two issues, niether of which is insurmountable but I am a fan of the K.I.S.S. system. The first issue is the paper shearing when you ram the ball into the chamber and leaving a ring of paper which if you forget to grab it, will be pulled into the cylinder gap. Not a big deal but it's just one of those things you need to remember to clear before you rotate the cylinder past the forcing cone.

Making paper cartridges with the ball included for a 2nd Model Dragoon Video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8CF3h1PkMk)

The second issue is a little more irritating and really has nothing to do with having the ball pre-loaded in the paper cartridge. If you're just using cheap cigarette paper you will eventually wind up with paper fouling the flash hole in the nipples. Normally I run a nipple pick through the flash holes after each firing no matter what. But I've found that the cigarette paper will really blast itself into that hole. So much so that a nipple pick can't punch it out. When this happens I just cap the nipple and fire a cap through it clearing the problem. Unfortunately this wastes caps and I'm thrifty (cheap). To avoid this problem I simply tear the end off of the paper cartridge and pour a few grains of powder into the cylinder "before" I stuff the cartridge in the hole.

Loading a '51 Fake Navy with Powder Only paper cartridges - Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G2zFzaDXxc)

Any way you decide to do this, you'll find that you save a lot of time on the range. You can make these things as historically accurate as you like or as simply as possible.

arcticap
October 28, 2011, 01:55 PM
The appendix of the Army's manual of Cavalry Tactics from 1860 contains "A Manual for Colt's Revolver" that specifies that the paper cartridge be torn open and the powder poured into the chamber before ramming.

The trooper being mounted, holding the reins as presecribed in Cavalry Tactics, the pistol either in the holster or pistol-case, the instructor will command:

Draw-Pistol

2 times.

1. At the first command, unbuckle the holster or pistol-case, seize the pistol by the handle with the right hand, holding it between the palm of the hand and the three last fingers, the forefinger resting on the guard, the thumb on the handle.

2. At the second command, draw out the pistol and elevate it, the guard to the front, the wrist at the height of, and 6 inches from the right shoulder.

Six times

1. Load.

1 time and 1 motion.

1. Place the pistol in the bridle-hand, holding it by the handle in front of the body, the hammer between the thumb and fore-finger, and turned to the left, the muzzle pointing upwards. Carry the right hand to the cartridge-box and open it.

2. Handle-Cartridge.

1 time, 1 motion.

Seize the cartridge with the thumb and the first two fingers, and carry it to the mouth.

3. Tear-Cartridge.

Bite off the end and carry the cartridge opposite the chamber nearest the lever.

4. Charge-Cartridge.

1 time and 2 motions.

1. Empty the powder into the chamber, and insert the ball, pressing it down as far as possible with the thumb and fore-finger.
2. Turn the pistol with the left hand, bringing the hammer towards the body, and cock it with the thumb of the right hand.

5. Ram-Cartridge.

1 time, 2 motions.

1. Seize the lever at the catch wit hthe thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, ram down the ball, and replace the lever.
2. Let down the hammer with the right hand, and carry the hand to the cartridge-box.
Repeat as above until all the chambers are loaded.

6. Prime.

1 time, 2 motions.

1. Lower the muzzle towards the right side by turning the wrist of the bridle-hand, the muzzle pointing downwards, the hammer to the front, the left wrist resting against the stomach; half-cock the pistol with the left thumb, turn the cylinder with the thumb and forefinger of the right hand until it clicks. Take a cap and press it on the exposed cone. Turn again the cylinder until it clicks, and so on until all the cones are capped, the hammer resting on the safety notch.
2. Seize the pistol at the handle with the right hand, and bring it to the position of draw pistol.
The instructor wishing to fire, will command:

Ready.

1 time, 2 motions.

1. Place the pistol in the left hand, the little finger touching the key, the barrel nearly vertical, the muzzle a little inclined to the left and front, the guard to the front, the thumb on the head of the hammer, the fore-finger along the guard.
2. Cock the pistol, and bring it to the position of draw pistol.

Aim.

1 time.

Lower the pistol, the arm half extended, and place the fore-finger lightly on the trigger, the muzzle directed to the height of the man's waist.

Fire.

1 time.

Press the fore-finger steadily on the trigger, fire and retake the position of draw pistol.
The men being at a ready, and the instructor wishing to fire all the barrels in quick succession, will give an intimation to that effect, and then command:

1. Aim-2. Fire.

The men will fire, then take the first position of ready, cock, aim, and fire again, and so continue until the pistol is discharged; then take the position of draw pistol.
The instructor wishing to reload, will command:

Load at will.

Load.

1 time.

Load the six chambers as heretofore prescribed, and take the position of draw pistol.

Return Pistol.

1 time.

Lower the muzzle of the pistol, and return it to the holster or pistol-case.
When the troopers become well instructed in the use of the pistol, the following mode of coming to a ready will be substituted for the above.

Ready.

Incline the muzzle of the pistol to the front, the wrist remaining six inches from the shoulder; place the first joint of the thumb on the head of the hammer, and cock it by an extension of the thumb, and resume the position of draw pistol.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DhGAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Busyhands94
October 28, 2011, 07:22 PM
i twisted up a bunch of em today. i used flax papers, they worked well last time i tried them for cartridges. they are rather thin too, but strong enough to handle being manipulated and filled with powder and balls. i screwed up about three of em, but go the rest made into cartridges. i found the perfect way to store them too, i used a Remington tin i got from a garage sale. that's perfect because they will be set off with Remington percussion caps in an 1858 Remington. hehe!

this did take less time than i would expect. i used a wooden dowel i tapered with a belt sander as my form, rolled a bunch of tubes all at once, filled them with my standard load of powder, put balls in all of them at once, then twisted the end shut, then trimmed off the excess paper at the end. it's a little different than the method described here, but it does yield essentially the same results. i like paper cartridges, they are very fast to load at the range, i don't like having to reload for other people. if Pa gets trigger happy i can use my loading stand for my revolver and those paper cartridges for a real fast reload. i don't really do it for the historical part, i like saving time at the range, it means i get to shoot more.

PrivateerEn96
October 29, 2011, 10:14 AM
Tried rolling with the ball, got through the learning curve, and they came out great!

My opinion - this paper cartridge thing is the way to go. I haven't figured out the "time benefit" of wrapping cartridges on my workbench as opposed to loading loose at the range. But do I feel like it takes longer to make the cartridges - only because I'm at my liesure and comfort. I enjoy that. And certainly reloading at the range would be quicker. I've been to "pay-by-the-hour" ranges and I can see how this is a benefit in that respest..

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