Durbin, Nazis and gun control.


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cuchulainn
June 23, 2005, 01:33 AM
If Mr. Durbin was out of line (and I agree that he was) for comparing U.S. handling of POWs to Nazis and other totalitarian regimes ...

... are pro-gunners who play the Nazi card just as out of line?

Discuss among yourselves.

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2nd Amendment
June 23, 2005, 01:56 AM
Whether the comparison is out of line or not depends on whether the comparison is accurate or not, correct? Are our troops and centers Nazi-like? Are gun-grabbers Nazi-like in their methodology and within historical context?

I assume you can guess my view.

chaim
June 23, 2005, 02:24 AM
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If Mr. Durbin was out of line (and I agree that he was) for comparing U.S. handling of POWs to Nazis and other totalitarian regimes ...

... are pro-gunners who play the Nazi card just as out of line?

It would depend upon the specific details.

Durban's implication (well, I guess if it is expressed it is not implied, thus implication isn't quite the right word) was that what a few US soldiers are doing is the same as the Nazis. He implied that providing some discomfort to prisoners is similar to murdering millions through gassings, beatings, and shootings in death camps or even before sending them to camps or to starving and working them to death in the work camps.

That is reprehensible and greatly diminishes the memory of the crimes of the Nazis by saying some US soldiers embarrassing or making uncomfortable some prisoners is the same.

Usually when pro-gun people use the Nazis to describe gun-grabbers it isn't done in a way that diminishes the crimes, but simply points out the Nazi gun control laws and makes a political analogy. However, while not at the same level I will say it is usually a bit overblown and unnecessary. That said, I've rarely seen it done in a way that was nearly as offensive as Durban's (or offensive at all) nor in a way that minimizes the Nazi's crimes or the memories of the victims.

c_yeager
June 23, 2005, 03:44 AM
Comparisons to "THE NAZIS!!!!!" is probably the single biggest copout in the history of arguments. Its the grownup equivalent of ending an argument by calling someone a poopyhead.

For further insight please refer to "Godwin's Law".

peacefuljeffrey
June 23, 2005, 06:26 AM
People are making a big strawman out of this.

I am a gun-owning libertarian-leaning anti-democratwhiner but I don't agree in the slightest with the way Republicans are characterizing Durbin's comments.

Assuming that the treatment of the prisoners he is describing actually took place at the hands of American forces... he did not compare the acts, or the people committing them, to Nazis or Nazi atrocities. He simply said something that is FACTUAL: namely, that if someone described these acts to you, you would not expect they had been committed by American soldiers but instead by the soldiers of a dictatorship that has no regard for human rights.

How is there any inaccuracy in what he said. He did NOT say, "These American troops are as bad as Nazis," or "These American troops are Nazis." He also did NOT say, "What they did here was as bad as Nazi atrocities." OBVIOUSLY it is not, but he never said it was! He simply said that this is the kind of thing you'd expect of Nazis, not of Americans.

People need to get a grip and start addressing things that someone actually said, instead of adulterating what they said and then attacking that as a strawman!

-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
June 23, 2005, 06:33 AM
Durban's implication (well, I guess if it is expressed it is not implied, thus implication isn't quite the right word) was that what a few US soldiers are doing is the same as the Nazis. He implied that providing some discomfort to prisoners is similar to murdering millions through gassings, beatings, and shootings in death camps or even before sending them to camps or to starving and working them to death in the work camps.

Uh, NO, he did not imply that providing some discomfort was similar to those things. He stated that if you did not know who did the discomfort-providing, you would fairly assume that it was something that would be done by Nazis and not by Americans.

Try to argue this thing honestly, people. Don't twist the words; address the words.

That is reprehensible and greatly diminishes the memory of the crimes of the Nazis by saying some US soldiers embarrassing or making uncomfortable some prisoners is the same.

Whine whine whine. No one ever said that "the memory of the crimes of the Nazis" was sacrosanct and no one was to ever be permitted to make comparisons to it for fear of diminishing it.

And you appear to be one of the people who is twisting what was said into something else.

Just because one says that Action A is something you would expect of Nazis does not mean that Action A is being said to be just as bad as anything Nazis ever did! To suggest that this is what Durbin was saying is extremely disingenuous.

If police were going door-to-door tomorrow rounding up any guns you had because they had passed a law that banned their ownership outright, you would not be wrong to say, "That's something you'd expect Nazis to do." And it would not be fair to say that you were implying that banning and confiscating your guns was just as bad as sending millions to gas chambers to be murdered. The statement simply says, "This is something you'd expect from Nazis."


-Jeffrey

4570Rick
June 23, 2005, 06:39 AM
If Mr. Durbin was out of line (and I agree that he was) for comparing U.S. handling of POWs to Nazis and other totalitarian regimes ...
They're treated as well as our troops. Ask them.

are pro-gunners who play the Nazi card just as out of line?
The Nazis disarmed the citizenry. Dustbin wants to do likewise. Hmm...What do you think?

peacefuljeffrey
June 23, 2005, 06:39 AM
Think about this, Yeager:

We are supposed to learn from history, right? Nazi atrocities are part of what we are supposed to have learned from.

Now, say someone comes along and gets himself put in power and starts doing stuff like Hitler did, and has his troops do stuff like the Nazis did.

You're saying it would never been appropriate or fair to say, "Hey, he's being as bad as Hitler! We've got to stop him or we'll repeat that horrific part of our history!"??

That doesn't make sense. You're acting as though it will never be appropriate to warn against the encroachment of loss of human rights by signaling that Nazis got up to the same kinds of behavior.

The only thing more tired and hackneyed than making comparisons to Nazis is this mindless, disingenuous attempt to claim that doing so automatically loses one the debate.


-Jeffrey

Art Eatman
June 23, 2005, 10:24 AM
Two separate factors to Nazi-ism: First was the total control over the whole civilian population. Total, including what people said about anything to do with politics. Control over all businesses as to what and how much they produced. This is what is commonly meant when pro-gun folks talk about parallels to "the Nazis": The total control.

The second factor was the *common* treatment of prisoners of the Gestapo/SS. Physical torture was commonplace. Pulling out of fingernails, for instance. Beating with clubs. One SS officer in France wrote at length about how pigskin gloves were best for the right amount of friction when striking a cheekbone so the eye would pop out. These are the implications of Durbin's comments.

Gitmo is no Bergen-Belsen. It's not even a Dachau...

Art

cuchulainn
June 23, 2005, 10:25 AM
Are gun-grabbers Nazi-like in their methodology and within historical context? Are they? They're dispicable, deceitful and wrong, no doubt. But are they really using the same methods as the Nazis? If so, please give specific examples.

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