[lee n. field]

A couple weeks back I picked up my first Mosin-Nagant, a pretty looking 1942 Russian M38 carbine. I also picked up a couple random 20 round bundles of surplus Russian 7.62x54 (one copper washed with a yellow tip, the other, I don't know what).

I finally got out to shoot it this past Monday. At 100 yards, out of 15 shots to 3 different targets, I barely had 3 widely seperated hits on paper. Dropping back to 50 yards was only slightly better.

By comparison, best with my Enfield No 4 in similar conditions at 100 yards is about 4 inches at 100 yards. So, I am capable. I assume it's the Mosin at fault.

Are Mosins ammo sensitive -- will it help (as one guy at the range suggested) to search out various different types of surplus ammo, to try and find one it likes? Someone else suggested possibly oversized bore.

I'm willing, of course, to get dies, brass and bullets, and roll my own, if I can determine it's an ammunition issue.

I guess I'm just venting some frustration. :banghead: Thank you-all for listening. :rolleyes:

[pcf]

Have you checked the some of the more obvious problems?
Broken/damaged/lose sights
Damaged crown
Damaged bore

[30Cal]

I'm not an expert on mosins, but IME, if a rifle can't get 5 shots on a target, the barrel's got big problems. You might be able to make it better by re-crowning.
*nevermind--coffeeless post. you've got a lot of stuff to check before you can draw that conclusion*
Ty

[TC66]

I can hit an 8 inch steel taarget at 200 yards with mine (1942 M38). I would try the Czech Silvertip if I were you. I have had very good luck with it in mine. Then again you may want to try Wolf 148 Grain I have heard it is pretty good.

[Kalashnikov]

Well it could be the mosin, most are accurate but there are always a few lemons made. Most likely it's the ammo however. From what I've heard, the yellow tip stuff (174gr hungarian i think) isnt the best. Try the silver tip 148 czech stuff, that's supposidly very good, I have some being shipped right now.

[mattw]

Check to make sure the front sight post is not bent and that the rear sight does not have chips or chunks missing around the "U" part. That was the case with mine.. It is pretty accurate, I just have to aim about 3 feet low and to the left at 100 meters.

[slowworm]

Check the action screws. I had left the action screws loose after I cleaned it prior to its first range trip and it shot all over the place.

It was only after I got home and started to strip the rifle down to parts to look for the problem that I noticed the action was loose in the stock.

I checked another M-44 I had left in the safe that I haven't done anything with yet and the screws were loose from the arsenal.

[.45&TKD]

Check the action screws

Stupid queston-which are the action screws?

[WayneConrad]

This is good, I've been meaning to ask this same question. I've got an M38 that shoots like a shotgun (8" group at 25 yards). I can't check the crown because the danged thing has been counterbored and I just can't see in there.

Thanks for the question and the answers. Now I'm going to check the action screws when I get home tonight.

(Added): I think the action screws are what hold the action firmly (hopefully) in the stock. I don't know where they are on the M38 (I'll know tonight), but they might be fore and aft of the trigger guard.

[Steelcore]

Its probably the action screws.The commies loosend them up for storage,so the stock wouldn't crack.Due to temprature changes.Remember how cold it can get in Europe and Russia.Always try diffeent types of ammo to see which is more accurate.

[George S.]

Ammo can definitely make a difference. Some 7.62x54R is close to 200gr and some is 147gr. The heavier bullets are typically de-linked MG ammo. I use the Czech silver-tip rounds (comes in a leight green box with a siver bar on the side and the bullet tips are silver. It's as good as some of the Albanian stuff.

If your carbine is not counterbored, it might be worth doing. Years of cleaning with a metal rod from the muzzle can destroy the lands at the crown and accuracy will suffer. My 1944 M38 has been recrowned to about 1" in the barrel and is fairly accurate. My 1931 Izzy 91/30 has not been recrowned and it will shoot 6-8" groups at 100 yards.

One of the things about the Mosin's is that they were never really designed for very accurate shooting. Even the 91/30 was only supposed to shoot 8" groups at 200 meters. That was good enough for "minute-of-Nazi" and that was all the Russians cared about in the Great Patriotic War.

The M38 was issued to rear area troops who were really not expected to do any fighting and if they did, the chances are that it would be from enemy troops that infiltrated behind the lines and the combat would be close in.

[lee n. field]

Check the action screws. I had left the action screws loose after I cleaned it prior to its first range trip and it shot all over the place.

Come to think of it, they weren't very tight when I went do some exploratory tinkering. I guess I'll have to pick up some ammo this weekend and try again.

[blfuller]

Stupid queston-which are the action screws?

These are the screws that hold the action to the stock. These are located infront of the magazine and behind the trigger guard. Just make sure they are tight.

[longrifleman]

I've had some luck cleaning the barrels on a couple of old bolties. I mean CLEAN. I've had to soak, scrub, soak some more and try different cleaners to get all the crud out. It seems to layer in and I thought they were clean until I tried different cleaners. I've alternated copper cleaners with powder cleaners even though it sounds crazy. I'm too cheap to buy an electronic cleaner. And too lazy to make one.

Even after that I would guess it is either a shot out barrel or the action is loose in the stock. The screws are the first place to start but it might take some more work with shims or bedding to tighten it up.

[Cosmoline]

M-38's often have horrible stock/receiver fit. The screws are often very loose. If that doesn't help, or if you notice the wood give way when you tighten the screws, I'd suggest moving it to a sporter stock for better accuracy. The Russian wood, esp. from the war years, is often soft and pithy. The Finns would routinely ditch Russian stocks on captured Mosins and put the rifle in a new birchwood stock.

[MilsurpShooter]

I know it's redundant and I'll get called a noob for even bothering to ask it but how is the cosmolene situation on the rifle you purchased and what does the bore look like when you take the bolt out and look into it?

[armoredman]

My M38 shoots 3.5 inch with Wolf, and about 6 inches with Czech Silvertip, counterbored, M44 stock, beautifully rearsenalled. I went to the bed room after reading the screw comments, and sure as dogsnot - the lower screw was quite loose.
...These are the screws that hold the action to the stock. These are located infront of the magazine and behind the trigger guard....

M38 - one screw underneath in front of the magazine, and the other topside, right behind the bolt. My upper one was very tight. Wonder if the groups will tighten up a little. She is my HDR, too, due to lack o' fundage...

[jefnvk]

If all else fails, buy a new one. The who;e gun will probably be cheaper than any gunsmithing required to fix it, and you'll always have the old one for parts.

[Cosmoline]

In my experience the best shooting M-38's are the ones that have NOT been counterbored. The counterbored ones often seem to have way oversized bores and even if they look crisp the bullets seem to fly out of them like shotgun slugs. The best M-38 I've had had lands and groves all the way out to the crown and would give 2" groups at fifty yards with Wolf 200 grainers.

These are far from the best of the Mosins, but they're good close-range thwappers.

[chunk]

my m-44 shoots paint cans at 200 yards( if i do my part) with any ammo i feed it-silver tip,wolf,silver bear, s&b it has not been counter bored...i love this weapon :evil:

[WayneConrad]

slowworm and Steelcore, you were spot on. My action screws were all loosey goosey. I tightened 'em up; now I'll load some ammo and take it to the range. The groups will have to tighten up now, I'm sure of it. Lee, I hope your M38 shoots better. Thanks again for asking this question.

Do you suppose I should have done a more thorough inspection of this milsurp before taking it to the range ;)? Naaaaaah. That's just what they're expecting.

[lee n. field]

By the way, is there a right way to get the barrel bands on and off?

[WayneConrad]

By the way, is there a right way to get the barrel bands on and off?

Lee, have you been here?: Disassembly and Reassembly of the Mosin 7.62 Carbine (http://surplusrifle.com/mosincarbine/rifledisassembly/index.asp) (surplusrifle.com).

[armoredman]

And here - speaker warning http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/ Great Mosin site.

[rockstar.esq]

Jay_Anderson I know it's redundant and I'll get called a noob for even bothering to ask it but how is the cosmolene situation on the rifle you purchased and what does the bore look like when you take the bolt out and look into it?

Generally, they aren't soaked to the gills in cosmo like many Turk mausers, but they are pretty greasy. I haven't seen too many of them with pitted barrels. The bore on mine is chrome lined and it has held up really well. I spent a lot of time looking for one that had a decent muzzle and didn't have the front sight drifted severely ( a sign that it's either very loose or potentially a rifle that an armorer had to monkey with to approximate point of aim. The M44's show some obvious tooling marks and the stocks show signs of honest wear. The main problem as I have experienced it is that the chamber is coated with laquer from when they did their preserving. Firing about 100 rnds will leave you with a bolt that takes a crazy amount of force to open. I found that using a pair of bent nose hemostats and a sopping wet patch allows me to get into the lug surfaces. I have found that if you leave a healthy dose of Hoppes no 9, in the chamber for a while, the laquer breaks down into nitro smelling gummi bear like junk that comes out pretty easy.

[armoredman]

I have heard this one many many times - there was never a chrome lined bore on a Mosin. Chrome lining didn't hit vogue until the M16, and that was loooong after the Mosin's day. They were just taken care of when rearsenaled.
The Mosin is still one of the greatest deals around, and another poster was right - if it won't shoot straightm buy another just like it, and keep the first for parts...not that these rifles break that often, either.

[444]

The first thing I would do is slug the bore.
I own two.
The first one I got had a bore that measures .318"
At 500 yards shots would strike 10 YARDS on either side of the target.

"Chrome lining didn't hit vogue until the M16, and that was loooong after the Mosin's day. "
That isn't true of US arms.

[MilsurpShooter]

I just figured I'd throw out the thing about the cosmo because I've seen some of them that... Well it looks like a shape of the gun but you really wonder if a guns under it or if it has deteriorated away lol.

[The_Antibubba]

I was going to say what 444 said. ;)

So I'll ask a few questions instead. What is counterboring and what does it do? And how would I be able to tell if it had been done to my rifle?

[lee n. field]

The first thing I would do is slug the bore.
I own two.
The first one I got had a bore that measures .318"
At 500 yards shots would strike 10 YARDS on either side of the target.


Are there special kits made for slugging a bore, or do you just hammer a bullet down the barrel with a dowel?

I don't have anything in a .30 lead bullet -- closest is .38.

[444]

Go to a store that sells fishing tackle: Wal-Mart as an example.
Get a package of egg sinkers. The ones that have a hole going clear through the center of the sinker from end to end.
Guess which one will provide a good fit for the bore.
The point of getting the ones with the hole for the line is so there is minimal spring back so it will give you a more accurate measurement.

[WayneConrad]

I think counterboring is a quick fix for a worn-out crown. The arsenal bores a hole in the muzzle, of a diameter much larger than the bore, an inch or two deep. Well, there's your recessed target crown, I guess.

If you try to slug a counterbored barrel, don't pick an egg that just fits in the end of the muzzle. When it hits the secret, hidden muzzle at the end of the counterbore, it will stick real good :cuss:.

[lee n. field]

Go to a store that sells fishing tackle: Wal-Mart as an example.
Get a package of egg sinkers. The ones that have a hole going clear through the center of the sinker from end to end.
Guess which one will provide a good fit for the bore.
The point of getting the ones with the hole for the line is so there is minimal spring back so it will give you a more accurate measurement.

Good suggestion. I did that (hints -- don't bother with a wood dowel. Pick up a 1/4" brass rod to drive it through. If the sinker is slightly too small for the bore, a couple raps with a hammer will widen it out enough to get a decent impression.).

Should I be measuring lands or grooves? I measure .304 across lands, .314 across grooves.

[Cosmoline]

The first one I got had a bore that measures .318"

LOL It's the world's first 8x54JR