Weapons on Submarines?


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Jmurman
June 24, 2005, 06:21 PM
Do our Sub crews carry weapons on board? I'm not talking about the SSGN's or the Special Service sub's that carry SEAL's but fast attack boats or boomers?


By the way, I really need to talk with someone that has served on either a fast attack or Ohio class sub. I am writing a book and I have some questions regarding them...nothing TS or anything like that.

Feel free to contact me either here or by email.

Thanks!
Jerry

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30Cal
June 24, 2005, 06:39 PM
I was an officer on an Ohio Class boomer up until 2000. The ship had a small arms locker to provide pierside and topside security and for repell boarder's situations. Pier security was a mossberg pump shotgun w/ 00 buck and the other guy carried a beretta. Certain watchstanders in the missile compartment were armed with nightsticks in port and at sea. We had M14's as well, but they didn't see the sun very often. A fast boat would have M16's instead of the M14. The locker also had a pile of flak vests (one of which was supposed to float but due to it's international orange color, it was wildly unpopular during the weekly commando drills) and MKU2P assault masks.

Everyone who was part of the security force (made up of the off-going watchsection) had to qualify on the 9mm I think annually--it ended up being a good portion of the crew. Maybe every two years. The number of guys qualified on the shotgun and M14 was very low because the squadron didn't like spending money on ammo.

You can PM me if you need more info. There isn't much about how a sub operates that I don't know. I was qualified as everything except Navigator and Captain (which were things department heads and XO's had to work on).

xdoctor
June 24, 2005, 06:40 PM
I have an old friend that works on one of the Seawolf class subs. Don't know if he can help but I'd be happy to ask him if he minds chatting with you about it. You likely won't get much info, most everything on a sub (in my experience talking with him) is super hush hush.

Send a pm if that might help.

Jmurman
June 24, 2005, 07:30 PM
Xdoctor,

Thanks for the offer...Seawolf subs are pretty dag-gone hush hush, so I don;t think you're friend would be much help.


30Cal...PM sent.

mete
June 24, 2005, 07:34 PM
Yes . I have photos of submarines in the arctic, with polar bears on them !! They have M14s for that and they also carry snowmobiles ! On one of the subs there were pictures of a bear chewing on the rudder.

ETCss Phil McCrackin
June 24, 2005, 07:37 PM
I am an ET1 (E-6) and my first boat was the Ohio class USS Tennessee (SSBN734G), I am scheduled to report to the USS Kentucky in July, and I was the small arms PO on shore duty. The Tennessee had M9's, Mossberg and Remington shotguns, M16's and a MK 46 mod 0. That was pre-911 so they have probably armed up a little more since then.

priv8ter
June 24, 2005, 07:59 PM
I am on and off Tridents every day. There are usually a few guys on watch topside, with a wide variety of weapons.

Usually, each topside watchstander carries an M-9, one will also have a Shotgun(either Mossbergs or Remingtons), the other will have an M-16. The M-14's have been phased out, the USS Parche being the last boat I know of that carried them for the topside watch.

In the past year or so, due to OPSEC issues, the below decks watch, as well as at LEAST two engineroom watch standers have started carrying M-9's also.

I'm afraid I can't help you as far as total number of weapons on board. I can tell you they take it seriously. I was trapped on board for 45 minutes day because following a security drill, they came up 1 shotgun shell short. Access to and from the ship was secured until some poor sailor found the shell in his pocket.

Phil...you going to the Gold or Blue crew?

If you are ever bored, swing back by the RC Control Point, and there is a chance you can find me...just ask the RadCon guys which one the 'Gun Nut' is.

greg

Hkmp5sd
June 24, 2005, 08:17 PM
One thing I always wondered about was the firearms and ammunition we carried. We used to run your basic repel boarders drills as well as nuclear weapons security drills. Being the off-going watch, I was one of those that was handed a firearm, generally a M16A1 and three full magazines, but on occassion, I'd get the Remington 870 or a 1911.

Now, being as a submarine's hull is round and made of steel, and most of the walls inside the boat are made of steel and there are generally lots of people in close quarters, what happens to all of those FMJ bullets should someone actually fire a weapon in the boat?

It reminds me of the scene from Undersiege where Casey grabs two SMGs. crosses his forearms and runs down a passageway with the subguns going full blast. With real bullets, in addition to killing the BGs in front of him, he'd have shot himself and everyone behind him too.

ETCss Phil McCrackin
June 24, 2005, 09:02 PM
Priv8ter, I'm going to the Blue crew.

twency
June 24, 2005, 09:35 PM
It reminds me of the scene from Undersiege where Casey grabs two SMGs. crosses his forearms and runs down a passageway with the subguns going full blast. With real bullets, in addition to killing the BGs in front of him, he'd have shot himself and everyone behind him too.
Reminds me of the scene from The Hunt for Red October.
Our Hero Jack Ryan is about to go after the KGB secret agent in the missile room, armed with a handgun. (Paraphrasing from memory)

Cpt. Ramius: "Ryan, be careful. There are things in here that don't take too well to bullets."

Of course, the safety mechanisms presumably would prevent a disaster even if a nuclear weapon was hit by a bullet, but it's probably not a bad idea to know your backstop when shooting in the missile room, just like any other time. :)

-twency

Plumber576
June 24, 2005, 09:42 PM
Yes . I have photos of submarines in the arctic, with polar bears on them !! They have M14s for that and they also carry snowmobiles ! On one of the subs there were pictures of a bear chewing on the rudder.

Mete, is there any way I can get a look at those pictures? Are they digital?

Malamute
June 24, 2005, 11:56 PM
i think there was a National Geographic article that had some similar pictures in the last year or two. A search may turn them up. The pic showed a guy on watch with an M-14.

Navy joe
June 25, 2005, 12:39 AM
Last time I saw a boomer get underway the topside party had an AT-4 among other goodies, probably not the right boat to bring your pleasure yacht too close to. :evil:

Hkmp5sd
June 25, 2005, 01:27 AM
In the past year or so, due to OPSEC issues, the below decks watch, as well as at LEAST two engineroom watch standers have started carrying M-9's also.

I can't imagine standing 6-hour SRO watches at night with a M-9 to play with. Probably a good thing they didn't arm us back when I was in. :)

Matt G
June 25, 2005, 01:40 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25802&stc=1

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25803&stc=1 from:
http://www.ecophotoexplorers.com/miscgallery.asp

I didn't find anything in my (admittedly brief) Google search on rifles onboard submarines (although I've read plenty here and on www.thefiringline.com about the topic), but I did find this interesting story about hiking and biking in northern Norway, and how you can rent a rifle for the polar bears. (http://website.lineone.net/~polar.publishing/svalbardfirstencounterorlast.htm) The author was horrified. :)

cslinger
June 25, 2005, 01:52 AM
Now a question. When the Government moves nuclear material/weapons cross country it is with VERY heavily armed folks who are reasonably well trained in the judicious use of violence.

Now what you guys are saying is that the average submarine has a few guys with 9mm handguns, 12 bores and maybe a real combat rifle or three and that none of these folks is all that well trained in this type of fighting. Now is this because your average sub is either out to sea and just about completely inaccessable or they are in a friendly well locked down port?

It just seems to me like a sub with possible nuclear weapons, not even a full bird boomer, would make a rather juicy target to any number of criminals, terrorists or other nogoodnicks who I would think would have the capability to both outgun and be better trained in close quarters combat and small team assault tactics. I realize I am making this out to be far easier then it really is but when you look at the Air Force and the teams they use to guard their silo's and other nuclear material, they are very well trained and very very well armed.

Just an observation for the idiot in the back of the peanut gallery.

Chris

cslinger
June 25, 2005, 01:55 AM
Navy guys, please don't take my above post as a flame or rude comment in anyway. I am just curious and going by what was posted above and by some other info I have been given. Just seems like if I was in charge of something with the raw power of a modern submarine I would make darn sure all the folks on board could do some serious boarder repelling.

Chris

Sunray
June 25, 2005, 02:26 AM
Jmurman, read ''Submarine". One of Tom Clancy's non-fiction books.
Matt G. Geezuz, those pictures are slick. Silly ass bears. And it's very refreshing to hear from somebody else who understands the research value of the Internet. Thanks. I thought it was just me.
"...the idiot in the back of the peanut gallery..." "...I am just curious..." cslinger, that says it all. If curiosity made any of us 'idiots', we'd all be idiots. The real idiot, is the one who doesn't ask questions. Take note of my comments to Matt.

Drizzt
June 25, 2005, 02:35 AM
cslinger....

It's a lot easier to find the silos..... ;)

Things may have changed since I played the game, but boomers generally didn't spend a whole lot of time in port.

Phil, maybe I've asked you this before, but my mind is going so.... are you a Nuc ET? I still can't figure out how I wound up as a Nuc ET when I went in.

mete
June 25, 2005, 05:04 AM
Plumber, The photos that Matt G posted are the ones ! I used to have more on my computer but they were lost. My brother met an admiral that had been on one of those boats .He wanted to take a ride around on the snow mobile .They stopped him, explaining that polar bears would have him for lunch !!

Hkmp5sd
June 25, 2005, 09:43 AM
cslinger,

It's been a while since I did the submarine thing and at that time, and probably even today, I think a handful of trained guys could actually steal a fast attack submarine (not fimiliar with boomers).

In port, there is usually about 1/3 to 1/4 of the crew aboard. At night, there would be one topside watch armed with an unloaded handgun, one non-nuke on watch in the forward half of the boat and two nukes on watch in the engine room.

Simply board the boat by shooting the topside watch and then the crew with suppressed weapons. Even if they heard you, since you know where they keep their guns, it's simple to block them.

Have a couple of guys start up the diesel generator, a couple disconnect shore power and maybe 4 or 5 nuclear trained guys start up the reactor plant and engine room. Have two guys man the helm/planes, one on the bridge and one to navigate. Once shore power is disconnected, head out on the diesel. Skipping a few procedures, you can have the reactor up and running by the time you are out far enough to dive. Shut down the diesel, pull the plug and vanish.

As Richard Marcinko states in Rogue Warrior, security on submarines is/was very poor.

BTR
June 25, 2005, 11:37 AM
I had a friend who was on the backup security detail of a nuke sub (don't know when)... said they had shotguns and .45s.

priv8ter
June 25, 2005, 12:10 PM
I'm trying to see how I can address csslinger's question without getting myself in any trouble.

Where I work, to get on a boat, you have to make it past 4 sets of guards: Main Gate, OA Gate, Water Front Gate, and then the ships topside watch.

To inspire your confidence even more, these first three sets of guards are usually the best GS-5's the government can buy/rent from Johnson Controls.

Once upon a time, there was usually one guy at each of these check points, but now there are at least three at each, with at least one guy being armed with a long gun(Usually an M-14 at the front gate).

But, to address your main point, a dedicated team would find little resistance to getting on the boat.

Now, the good news.

When a ship comes in, the weapons come off, and they don't go back on until right before the ship goes to sea. When nuclear weapons are involved, at least of Platoon of Heavily Armed, not very sociable Marines are on guard around the boat.

The other good news, is uaually these ships start getting taken apart for major maintence as soon as they hit the pier, so even bad guys did get on one, they would more than likely find it with half of the drain system sitting on the pier with bubbas working on it. A broken sub does no one any good.

Finally...even if they get on a boat that is put together and has a few torpedos...so what? They aren't exactly the easiest things to drive. The power plant takes at least 2-3 hours to fire up. Even using Hkmp5sd's plan, let's say you do get some disgruntled nukes who are thrilled at the opportunity to start-up with out using procedures...well, you still have two hours or so the boat is vulnerable, limited to 4 knots on the EPM on the surface, while planes from Whidby Island an McCord AFB are looking for you. That would be as good of a way as commiting suicide as any, I guess.

And to address the FMJ inside a metal tube question...all we ever issued below decks were Shotgun's, but I was a fast attack guy while I was still in. SSN-21, the fast, deepest diving, quitest boat to sit next to the pier :evil:

greg

Hkmp5sd
June 25, 2005, 05:38 PM
Where I work, to get on a boat, you have to make it past 4 sets of guards: Main Gate, OA Gate, Water Front Gate, and then the ships topside watch.
Unless you come in on the water side, of course.

you still have two hours or so the boat is vulnerable, limited to 4 knots on the EPM on the surface, while planes from Whidby Island an McCord AFB are looking for you.
Unless you take over the boat during a port visit at a non-military location. You could easily have 5-6 hours of darkness plus several more hours after sunrise with no one knowing what's going on. With the reactor in hot standby, which it always is whenever in visiting ports, you can be making steam in around 30 minutes. Even if it took longer, you can always dive and snorkel if needed.

You could even sit at the pier and let the entire crew come aboard, subduing them as they arrive, and take the boat out as scheduled with no one in the world knowing it wasn't under the Captain's control.

I spent several years starting up the reactor plant and engine room prior to getting underway. We were extremely proficient and fast at it.

But hopefully, there is much more security in place in the post 9-11 world to prevent anyone even attempting to gain access to a boat.

rbmcmjr
June 25, 2005, 06:25 PM
...blow off the pre-crit, latch and snatch, you can be critical in the power range in about 15 minutes, depending on the platform. Give it another hour to warm up the engine room and you're golden.

On the other hand, it would be trivial for a "partisan" to make it impossible to operate the plant. Take an axe to the scram breakers, throw a handful of nuts into the reduction gears, vent off the hydraulic accumulators and air flasks, etc.

I think you guys are underestimating just how hard it would be.

Rick - ex-nuke (S1W, CVN-65), one time civilian instructor at MTS-635, general nuclear guy

priv8ter
June 25, 2005, 08:01 PM
No, please don't think I'm underestimating it. I was trying to address csslingers questing regarding someone running off with a boat. I don't think that would be all that easy, nor do I think they would get much use out of it if they did.

Now, the sabatoge thing that you are talking about..almost painfully easy.

Heck..I think about three years ago, an RC-div guy on the USS Alaska went in and cut and rewired some of the CRDM cables...the ship was laid up for over two months while ALL the Reactor Instrumentation was rechecked. They caught the kid, and I guarentee you his punishment was not severe enough(Since it wasn't a time of war).

Unless you come in on the water side, of course

Well, at Bangor, that would be a bit tough. There is a floating chain link fence that runs the length of the base. You haven't seen a government boondoggle until you've seen a two-mile long chain length fence on bouys floating in the middle of Hood Canel.

Greg ex-EWS/EDPO qualified LELT(S6W) and still a general nuclear guy because I didn't look hard enough for a real job so I'm stuck as a RadCon Tech. :(

GEM
June 26, 2005, 01:56 PM
What happens when a giant squid tries to eat the boat and you surface to fight it? Do you run a charge through the hull?

Oh, that was Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea? :D

Hkmp5sd
June 26, 2005, 04:34 PM
Do you run a charge through the hull?
Nah. We just stop on the bottom and connect a huge gator clip to the underwater telephone line and phone home for help. :)

MillCreek
June 26, 2005, 05:28 PM
Huh. And here I thought that only the USS Parche (now retired) could do that. Shades of Ivy Bells. :)

Edited to add that I see Benjamin has also read Blind Man's Bluff, which is where I lifted the Ivy Bells reference from. My wife, a retired HMC (SW), was married previously to a QMC (SS) who spent some time on the boomers out of Bangor and the Parche. She occasionally went out on sub shakedown cruises as the IDC when they were carrying female tech reps or guests.

Eightball
June 26, 2005, 05:47 PM
I am not/have not been in the Navy, so I'm not quite so proficient at knowing security drills. I would guess that if you manage to neutralize basically every guard at the port, get in the sub, and get it moving without getting blown into next week--i would assume someone would know about it and have called in some help, and that you would not make it out of port. If you did, there's other US ships to deal with. And, odds are the "high-priority" stuff would be gone, so no nukes. And if you were well enough trained to execute such an activity, odds are you're in the US Spec. ops anyhow :D .....but, if you could do it, you'd die shortly thereafter, or spend a looong time in the slammer. And make an interesting subject for numerous movies from now until the end of time.

mete
June 26, 2005, 05:57 PM
GEM, there have been ships attacked by giant squid.!!! There was an excellent photo of that with damage to the rubber cover of the sonar dome in the bow . They identified it as a squid since some teeth were imbedded in the rubber . They're not just tall tales !

PromptCritical
June 26, 2005, 06:42 PM
I heard that a shutdown watch section performed an unauthorized startup late one night just to see if they could do it. They got caught because the instruments read higher activity in the core the next morning.

My boat had M9's, M16's, a couple M203's, a couple Mk43's (shortened M-60), and a bunch or shotguns. Nukes were not required to qualify. :( I did get to do force on force simunitions training. :D

I figure a USS Cole type incident would be a waste of time as several inches of high strength steel would preclude most damage to the ship. Look at the USS San Francisco: She hit a MOUNTAIN at full speed (>25 kts) and the pressure hull remained intact.

It would take, in my estimation, about a dozen trained people to steal a submarine with a lot of planning. Even if they did, what would they do with it then? The US Navy WOULD find them shortly.

As a side note: Disgruntled Nukes are not too difficult to find. Easy way: When returning to port, find an Electrician rigging shore power and ask him how he feels watching the Coners go on liberty. If he says something negative, tell him "That's why you get Pro-Pay." Duck.

Benjamin
June 26, 2005, 06:45 PM
I figure a USS Cole type incident would be a waste of time as several inches of high strength steel would preclude most damage to the ship.

'_ _ _ _ YOU, GOD! Nothing gets through HY-80!!'

-Blind Man's Bluff



Edit - remembered the book.

Eightball
June 26, 2005, 07:06 PM
Lmao! :D

Hkmp5sd
June 26, 2005, 07:16 PM
When returning to port, find an Electrician rigging shore power and ask him how he feels watching the Coners go on liberty.
You gotta reenlist to get pro-pay!

If you have a good E-Div and EOOW, you can have shore power on and the plant shutdown in 20-25 minutes. We used to have lots of help because the Engineer required all nukes to stay until the plant was down.

There were ways to get even the coners though, like not signing off their electric plant checkout until they had come back and helped drag the shore power cables once.

ETCss Phil McCrackin
June 26, 2005, 08:03 PM
Ohh maaaan, here we go with the cryin nuc's, "Why are we last to go on libs?", "Life sucks, I'm so disgruntled!", "What am I going to do with a $60,000 SRB?"...... oh wait, I've never heard the last one. :evil: You guys only come foreward long enough to eat and pick crappy flicks, then you leave before its over!!! :cuss: :)

priv8ter
June 26, 2005, 10:01 PM
Last I heard, the Zone B bonus was up to 100K, with a Career Cap not to exceed 200K.

Heck Phil, someone's got to make the water for your shower and fix the ice cream machine. :evil:

To keep this gun related, I am somtimes jealous of the shotguns the topside watches carry. Most of them are normal pump guns, but at least two of the boats have folding stock pistol grip pump guns..and to my calibrated eye, they certainly look less than 26-inches over all length.

Greg, who's glad he works on submarines so he can see reminders every day of why he got out.

geekWithA.45
June 26, 2005, 11:43 PM
So, lemme get this straight:


-The average sub's armory looks more or less like the average THR denizen's _spare_ gunsafe.

-I've seen zodiacs more heavily armed than that patroling the potomac.

Capt Kirk: Scotty! Fire up the engines so we can steal the half decommissioned Enterprise to go save Spock!

Scotty: No problem keptin! We'll just sneak around on impulse power for 3-4 hours, and then we'll have righteous warp, alright!

Pilgrim
June 27, 2005, 12:48 AM
I'm dating myself, but the diesel-electric boat I did a summer midshipman cruise on had two M2 Browning .50 calibers. The captain scrounged up a M-79 grenade launcher. There was an assortment of M1 rifles, sub-guns, and pistols.

The captain was an avid shooter, so a number of the crew had their personal weapons stowed away in their bunks.

Pilgrim

jkswiss
June 27, 2005, 01:59 AM
No, you don't have to re-enlist to get pro-pay. You get that $100 regardless. And yes it makes up for the crappy hours.

Hi, everyone. I was just browsing through and had to say hi when I found a surprising number of submariners on this thread, not to mention nuke submariners.

I'm a six and out guy. I just got done with my service in May. Served on the good old Hyman G. Rickover, SSN-709 as a nuke MM.

MARK TIME, ITS SEVEN OH NINE!! YEAAAAAAAA!!!! Sorry private joke.

Oh yeah, being a nuke really blew. You coners have it easy, you just don't know. And don't let me even get started on my carrier brethren, you pampered babies.

Just so you know, the month I left, Squadron 8 implemented the whole SRW carrying a 9mm pistol. I know me and my buddies where shaking our heads, wondering whos going to be the first guy to shoot themselves. We have to go to some awkward places (awkward enough without a gun strapped to your legs) for logs, not to mention we have to vacuum, pick up debris in bilges/outboard, wipe up oil, pump FBCT to ABCT, then ABCT overboard. Yeah..and not to mention most of us are real bad shots, seeing as we shoot once a year to qualify.

The reason why the fast attack submarine crew is not a bunch of Delta Force rambo's is that we simply do not have the time. On top of workups, upkeeps, training, and qualifications, we hardly had time to sleep.

Man, I do not miss those days at all. Civilian life is a dream come true.
Yes, yes, I was the quintessential disgruntled nuke. I just loved to hate it.

Hkmp5sd
June 27, 2005, 06:03 AM
we simply do not have the time. On top of workups, upkeeps, training, and qualifications, we hardly had time to sleep.
Do they still do ORSE boards on subs? I was in back when Rickover was alive and you can be we did them.

jkswiss
June 28, 2005, 01:54 AM
Yeah, we still do them. I think as long as there is nuclear power aboard a Navy ship there's gonna be ORSES...man those sucked. :mad:

oweno
June 28, 2005, 06:24 AM
Long, long ago on the diesel boats, we had 4 or 5 1911A1s, a couple of M-1s, a couple of BARs, and a couple of Thompsons.

In port, the topside watch carried a 1911 with an empty magazine inserted and a coupe of full mags on his guard belt.

Did a 'repel boarders' drill once in port - the duty officer (Mr. Morrison) charged topside with his sword drawn. No, really.

Onliest time I ever saw the BAR in use is when we had swim call in the middle of the Atlantic. Wayne, a torpedoman, was up on the sail step with the BAR in case a shark arrived on scene. Given that he'd never fired one before, we told him that if he saw a shark fire the BAR into the air and we'd get out of the water in a hurry.

Back then, us submarine sailors didn't know much about things that fired anything with a bore size less than 21 inches.

Dr.Rob
June 28, 2005, 07:55 PM
One of my uncles did time in Fast Attacks and Boomers in the early to mid sixties... someplace I've seen a picture of him and his buddies taking "target practice" with a one of the two Navy Issued Thompson Submachine Guns on his boat (I think it was USS Dogfish at the time)... more or less a pic of motly beared sailors shooting trash/debris while standing on the hull.

I was suprised to say the least... but boarding small vessels was pretty common at the end of WW2, so small arms were SOP.

Shark watch with a BAR.. that's a redneck fisherman's dream!

raghorn
June 28, 2005, 08:02 PM
I spent four years (84-88) on a Sturgeon-class SSN, and another five years as a civilian working on them after I left active duty.

In the 1980s we carried Colt 1911s, M-14 carbines and 12 gauge pump shotguns (I think they were Win model 12s).

Back in the engineering spaces we were trained to use "weapons of opportunity" as well. :uhoh:

sixandout
June 28, 2005, 10:01 PM
speaking of the san fran ssn 711 glad i'm not on board that sub anymore

Moonclip
June 29, 2005, 04:02 AM
While in the USN, I remember observing folding stock 870's being deployed by sailors on guard duty topside on a SSN. I remember the guns had quite a bit of rust on them! My surface ship still deployed m14's(mostly for line launching but also deployed by security teams,most guns deployed were Mossberg 500's and 1911's though) and M60's into the 1990's, we even still had 1911's, Berettas did not appear until like the late 1990's.

PromptCritical
June 29, 2005, 05:27 AM
$45,000 SRB wasn't enough. I think I started counting the days at about 900. Long live the SNOB!

SRW carrying? God, what a dumb idea. I asked if I could carry my G21 as SRO. I would even provide my own holster and ammo. They said no. :(

c_yeager
June 30, 2005, 05:52 AM
Unless you take over the boat during a port visit at a non-military location. You could easily have 5-6 hours of darkness plus several more hours after sunrise with no one knowing what's going on. With the reactor in hot standby, which it always is whenever in visiting ports, you can be making steam in around 30 minutes. Even if it took longer, you can always dive and snorkel if needed.

I dont think our missle boats EVER tie up anywhere but their home port. In fact, im not even sure that our attack boards even visit non-military locations.

I think the only time your ever going to have a chance to hit a missle boat is when they are ferrying their way out to see on the surface. THis is a very short period of time, and they are moving pretty fast. Despite the fact that they are generally unescorted or very lightly escorted during this time, they are not even close to a soft-target, and bear in mind that this only happens around their home port.

m1kecope
June 30, 2005, 09:45 AM
There were a few posts there that replied. I liked the one near the end that showed just how easy it would have been to steal one. When I was a nuke(85-95) onboard security, was pretty poor IMHO, when we were in home port. The topside watch had an unloaded 1911 and maybe a shotgun. Ammo was held in a separate pouch on the belt. All the other firearms were kept locked up. Security drills were a joke also. We stood around the smalls arms locker in a cramped passageway waiting for the person with the key. It was pretty stupid.
We talked about this a lot when on watch late at night. We concluded that if we did not get sufficient warning, there was no way to isolate the engine room in time. We would only have to shut two hatches but getting to the forward one would have involved running down a passageway that ran the length of the reactor compartment on the stbd side. This would be a long "fatal funnel".
The lower hatch that went topside would have been easier to shut and closer too unless it was fouled by temp services like welding cables etc. The bad guys would have had to get past the shore power cables, or just drop a gas grenade.
I hope security has been upgraded a little in the past ten years.

Mike formerly EM1/SS (SSN-697 & 721)

bbgun
June 30, 2005, 03:46 PM
in the early 70's, I can tell you from personal experience, and give you phone numbers of dozens of other men who saw the same thing. :-) We were not allowed to seat a mag, and we didn't even get the dogs out of the kennel, much less walk them around the MSA (max security area).

odysseus
June 30, 2005, 04:55 PM
An uncle of mine did a lot of time on subs in Vietnam following and "playing" with the russians. He loves to talk about goofing off with the Thompson .45's they stocked on board during some down time. I also seem to recall that they used .50 cal's guarding when docked. He also learned the 1911 from this experience and collected them after the war.

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