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Jmurman
June 24, 2005, 08:53 PM
I am writing a couple of books. Now, in one of my books the main character uses a .22 pistol (Ruger Mk2) and he builds a silencer for it.

Ok, so if I buy a book from an online book source that details how to build a silencer...do you think that would send out red flags?

I certailny don't want to use this material to help me with a book, and then face JBT's in the middle of the night.

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pax
June 24, 2005, 09:00 PM
That is the saddest post I've read this week.

pax

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to my conscience, above all liberties. -- John Milton

TrybalRage
June 24, 2005, 09:01 PM
You could contact the atf, but either way you are gonna send up a red flag for further review.

Alex45ACP
June 24, 2005, 09:02 PM
Disgusting that people now have to worry about being visited by the gestapo for reading a book the government doesn't approve of :(

Standing Wolf
June 24, 2005, 09:50 PM
...if I buy a book from an online book source that details how to build a silencer...do you think that would send out red flags?

People who are afraid to exercise their civil rights don't still have them.

fjolnirsson
June 24, 2005, 09:52 PM
...if I buy a book from an online book source that details how to build a silencer...do you think that would send out red flags?

Some of those online sources still take phone orders. Might be worth looking into.

That is the saddest post I've read this week.

Indeed.....

Nehemiah Scudder
June 24, 2005, 09:54 PM
Speaking of silencers...

I've read/picked up from somewhere that a so-so method of making a silencer would involve tape and a plastic bottle.

Is this realistic, or BS?

Jmurman
June 24, 2005, 10:06 PM
That is the saddest post I've read this week.

Tell me about it...this week with SCOTUS and all of that, the 1st Amendment will likely go down the same road.

So, do you think I'm just being overly paranoid?

fjolnirsson
June 24, 2005, 10:08 PM
So, do you think I'm just being overly paranoid?

NOPE.

Nehemiah Scudder
June 24, 2005, 10:10 PM
In the first Mr. Clark book, Tom Clancy detailed him machining a silencer. I don't see what the big deal is.

rick_reno
June 24, 2005, 10:13 PM
Send up flags? No way, this is America - not Russia under Stalin where tinfoil was difficult to find. You'll be fine as long as you have your tinfoil hat on. Do the ordering, opening and reading with the hat on - and you should be ok. As a precaution, start daily soakings in sunscreen. It'll save your skin when the ship you off to Gitmo.

pax
June 24, 2005, 10:19 PM
So, do you think I'm just being overly paranoid?
No.

Too bad you're not in Portland -- this sort of thing necessitates an excursion to Powells Books, with a pocketful of cash.

Even if you don't find what you're looking for, you still come home broke and carrying a pile of books ...

pax

Art Eatman
June 24, 2005, 11:33 PM
I'd contact the US Patent Office. Odds are, none of the agencies check that. It's too obvious.

:D, Art

fjolnirsson
June 24, 2005, 11:47 PM
I checked. According to Loompanics website, you can order via phone.

P95Carry
June 25, 2005, 12:03 AM
How far away might we be from the ''thought police'' I wonder sometimes. :(

CAS700850
June 25, 2005, 12:32 AM
Depends on where you are, re: the thought police. A guy in Columbus was prosecuted at the state level on kiddie porn charges for stories he wrote in a notebook for his own "entertainment." the guy was a convicted child molestor, whoch is how he got caught (on parole, and the parole officer actually looked in the notebooks during a house check.) He was convicted, though it was overturned on appeal.

As to the silencer information, ditto going to a bookstore, where cash cannot (yet) be traced back to you.

GRB
June 25, 2005, 12:39 AM
I certailny don't want to use this material to help me with a book, and then face JBT's in the middle of the night.Not only is this, in my opinion, the most ridiculous thing I have read all week, this is one of the most insulting things I have read all week. Who in Hades are you kidding with, what in my opinion, is no more than a flaming troll like that.

JohnKSa
June 25, 2005, 12:49 AM
Buy Tom Clancy's book "Without Remorse" There's a section where one of the characters makes a silencer and you can probably get what you need from there. Plus it's a great book--one of Clancy's best, IMO.

Jmurman
June 25, 2005, 06:20 AM
Not only is this, in my opinion, the most ridiculous thing I have read all week, this is one of the most insulting things I have read all week. Who in Hades are you kidding with, what in my opinion, is no more than a flaming troll like that.

I assure you it isn't troll but a question I had. Too bad if you don't think that it's important or has merit, but I do. I don't know WHY you would be insulted...all I asked was for an opinion.

Jmurman
June 25, 2005, 06:29 AM
In the first Mr. Clark book, Tom Clancy detailed him machining a silencer. I don't see what the big deal is.

I read his book and really liked it as well. In my book the character doesn;t have access to a milling machine, lathe or drill press...so I am looking for expedient tools.

Thanks!

Jmurman
June 25, 2005, 06:33 AM
How far away might we be from the ''thought police'' I wonder sometimes.

Thats the point. I read UC and John Ross went through some real issues with ATF and others after he wrote that piece, which was well before 9/11 and the Patriot Act came into play.

Greg M
June 25, 2005, 08:29 AM
There's a gun show this weekend at the Frederick Fairgrounds.http://www.silveradogunshow.com/silver.html

I'm pretty sure (not 100% certain) I've seen books on silencers at the gun shows and you can pay cash! I don't think you're paranoid.

Greg :uhoh:

dfaugh
June 25, 2005, 08:30 AM
Now, that doesn't mean they can't trace it, but may be better, maybe use the computer at the public library....I can understand your concern...I was reading a book about WWII, which mentioned that the Germans invented sarin, tabun, and yet another poison gas that I can't remember the name of....Wasn't sure how true this was,so I went on the web to verify(its true)... Wonder how many governement lists that got ME on :what:

(Note:some, but only SOME sarcasm involved....It really is kinda sad that we even have to THINK about this stuff)

GRB
June 25, 2005, 10:19 AM
I don't know WHY you would be insulted...Still trolling, well I'll bite again, how is this for insulting:

JBT's in the middle of the night. Of course if you do not see the insult within those words let me make it a little bit simpler for you to see:

JBT's

Greg M
June 25, 2005, 10:32 AM
Yeah, I agree with Glenn Bartley. It should be "JBTs" -- the apostrophe indicates possessive as if you're implying that the JBTs will have their nightsticks out.

Greg

Jmurman
June 25, 2005, 10:32 AM
Still trolling, well I'll bite again, how is this for insulting:

Glenn, sorry that you are so thin skinned that you are insulted over the initials JBT, or their meaning which is Jack Booted Thugs. Now, maybe you are one of those types and if you are, you should be insulted over that term. If you are not, then WHY would you be offended?

Maybe instead of starting with the names you should just ignore the thread. I asked a legitimate question and received legitimate answers, enough said.

Biker
June 25, 2005, 10:32 AM
Glenn
In all honesty, unless one "is" a JBT, there is no reason to feel insulted. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but mountains and molehills come to mind.
I too get nervous at times about raising red flags with alphabet agencies over innocent actions.
Biker

Derek Zeanah
June 25, 2005, 10:33 AM
Sorry you're insulted, Glenn. I understand where his concern is coming from, though.

Not long ago I purchased a few books on Amazon by an "Uncle Fester" (pseudonym). They dealt with creating explosives, "war gasses," and making bullets that are a bit more likely to penetrate armor, all using readily availably materials.

Now that they're expanding police powers a bit, "they" will be able to find those records on Amazon, along with books on guerilla warfare, small-unit tactics, computer security, shooting and sniping, a copy of the Qur'an and some related theological material, and some random "right-wing" stuff (think John Ross, Claire Wolf, Vin Supernowicz, and the like).

I don't doubt that there's a chance that some day someone's gonna go :what: when they see that and possibly correlate it with my posting here and in other places.

These are all legitimate purchases of legal material, and were purchased for no reason other than education, entertainment, and curiosity. The problem though: we're quickly becoming a society where it's reasonable to worry whether the results of Amazon purchases, internet posts (via CARNIVORE or whatever they're calling it this week), credit reports, and property ownership won't be on the next set of CD-ROMs the TSA illegally keeps on-file.

I honestly believe that my book purchases may someday limit my ability to fly on a commercial aircraft -- my interests are too outside the norm, and someone's gonna freak when all this data is compiled in an easy-to-read manner.

I understand the original poster's desire to keep a lower profile. I really do...

sssteinkamp
June 25, 2005, 10:40 AM
You see, when you posted here:

Ok, so if I buy a book from an online book source that details how to build a silencer...do you think that would send out red flags?

Your IP address was tracked, and you instantly went on a list. That list becomes part of your permanent file. So, you may as well order the book since you're on the list now anyway.

I'm on the list too. I'm on all the lists...

I'd love to see my file one day. Must take up a whole drawer...

Shane

GRB
June 25, 2005, 10:42 AM
The thickness of the skin does not make an insult any less insulting. An insult is an insult no matter how I take it. As for having to be one to be insulted by the term that is preposterous. The person who would be most insulted by the term would be the person who is called a JBT and who is not one (get it that is what makes it insulting - when it is untrue and derogatory). The great majority of BATFE agents, federal agents, state and local police are not even anything close to being a JBT. A person who is actually a JBT should in fact not be insulted by the term, if the shoe fits wear it - you brought it onto yourself if you are one. The thing is it does not fit in the context in which you used it; not at all.

So please, cut the fancy backpeddling. JBT is a quite offensive term. You did not have to be an ATF Agent to have been insulted when the NRA called them such. Any federal agent, local or state law enforcement officer should be insulted when such terminology is used to imply that police of any type in this country are akin to the Nazis when in fact that is far from the truth (the original Jack Booted Thugs -or do you not understand the reference). You should never have used it in your original post period. The post is a flame and a troll as far as I can tell. It is also a sad commentary on a cop hating mentality in that you even ponder that you will be visited by JBTs iin the middle of the night simply for buying a book. To think that the federal government or any other police agency in general is monitoring the sales of such books is, in my opinion, ludicrous and a bit paranoid. No one is coming to your house in the middle of the night, not the ATF, not another federal agency, nor the state or local police just because you simply have purchased a book on how to construct a silencer.

HonorsDaddy
June 25, 2005, 10:50 AM
Sorry glenn, but if you're offended by the term, thats just too damn bad. As long as law enforcement continues to refer to the people it serves as civilians and maintain an adversarial posture towards them, the term will continue to be applied. Sorry, thats just how its going to be.

GRB
June 25, 2005, 11:03 AM
So the term civilians gets you upset, and its use by police equates as making them akin to Nazis? Man some of you on this site are truly some sort of paranoid. Time to say goodbye and I amsure you may say good riddance to me and that does not insult me, it makes me feel pretty good that you see me as the enemy because all of my career I have striven to be upright and good in my delaings with the civilians I have met, including all of the other CIVIL Servants I have met. You see we are all civilians, but sorry if that word civilians may be insulting to you in some twisted manner.

As far as adversarial goes, tell that to the cops and federal agents who dug through the World Trade Center. Tell that to the cop who pulled the young kid out of the burning wreck on the interstate, tell that to the cop who delivered the baby on the streets the other day, tell that to the cop who was shot to death trying to prevent a bank robbery. Sure there are some bad cops and that needs to be addressed. But in general the police in this country are not oppressive at all, that is unless you are in violation of the law. If you find the laws oppressive, then vote your candidates into office and have them write and vote in new legislation. If you cannot do that it is because you are in the minority and as you said it will be just too bad. Maybe if you ideals were more acceptable to the rest of the civilians (myself included) in this country, your ideas would be accepted.

As for me, and as for the great majority of Americans, JBTs is seen as a rather offensive term when applied in general to any agency.
Sincerely,
Glenn B

Jmurman
June 25, 2005, 11:11 AM
So please, cut the fancy backpeddling. JBT is a quite offensive term.

No back peddling here Glenn.

You did not have to be an ATF Agent to have been insulted when the NRA called them such.

Take it up with the NRA and G. Gordon Liddy

The great majority of BATFE agents, federal agents, state and local police are not even anything close to being a JBT.

I never said that they were, I simply said JBT. It is YOU that are saying that I have a hate police mentality, which I don't at all. I have a HATE JBT mentality.

The post is a flame and a troll as far as I can tell.

It seems that you are the only one that feels that way. Again I asked what I felt was a legitimate question and received legitimate answers.

To think that the federal government or any other police agency in general is monitoring the sales of such books is, in my opinion, ludicrous and a bit paranoid. No one is coming to your house in the middle of the night, not the ATF, not another federal agency, nor the state or local police just because you simply have purchased a book on how to construct a silencer.

I'll sleep better at night knowing that Glenn, thanks for your assurances.

HonorsDaddy
June 25, 2005, 11:23 AM
Sorry you dont like it Glenn, but it is as I said.

As long as so many police officers maintain an adversarial posture towards those they serve, they will continue to be referred to as JBTs. If you dont like it, rather than suggesting that everyone ELSE adapt to the attitude of the police, why dont you advocate that the police try to be what the people expect you to be?

I dont personally hate cops at all glenn. Not one bit. I recognize that most of them are good men doing their jobs - and doing I job I, for one, could never do. For this they have my respect.

I will freely admit that the increasing militarization of even the smallest law enforcement agencies is disturbing - and frankly most good cops should be bothered by this as well.

The term "JBT" applies to a small subset of law enforcement. If you cannot see this, the problem is your own.

Art Eatman
June 25, 2005, 11:28 AM
The NRA did not coin the term "Jack Booted Thug".

That term originated in Congress during the floor debate on the Gun Control Act of 1968; Rep John Dingell, D-Mich. Something to the effect, "If this bill passes, there will be jack-booted thugs knocking down doors of American homes."

The fact that the majority of BATFE agents are honest people and are highly qualified does not in any way obviate the fact that BATF agents in para-military costume did indeed knock down some doors in American homes. I see it as a by-product of the Congressional public hearings on Ruby Ridge and Waco that this methodology is notably reduced.

The "however" in all this is that we are now in a period where there is extreme sensitivity and suspicion directed at people who appear to be somehow "out of the mainstream"--as defined by those in positions of authority.

Art

GRB
June 25, 2005, 11:43 AM
The NRA did not coin the term "Jack Booted Thug".No one said or even implied that they did. The NRA however did apply the term to ATF agents in a very specific incident and splashed it in their publications. When speaking about sound suppressors for firearms and saying you don't want the JBTs to come to you in the middle of the night the implication that this means the ATF or other police agencies is obvious.

As for who coined this term, you know little of history if you think it was new termioniolgy in the late 1960s. I remember discussions about nazi germany from my very young days, and the term wa used to refer to storm troopers and the SS quite often. "Jack Booted" refers to a certain type of footwear worn by German military types in WWII.

thereisnospoon
June 25, 2005, 12:11 PM
Recently, I had need to contact the local BATF(E) regarding a matter involving the sale of firearms and fraudulent funding (but that is a whole different issue). I must tell you that the thought of inviting the "enemy" into my home was tortuous, but at last I had to do something.

The Agent arrived in a very old, beat up Ford Taurus (not what I expected) and she was absolutely drop dead gorgeous...I am sure I looked like a cartoon with my eyes bugged out (Again, not what I expected). :evil:

She was very professional and also very funny, and if she wanted to come in the middle of the night wearing high heeled black boots, well....

BTW, sssteinkamp, you have been awarded sergant stripes in the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, unless you want to be a lt. or col. or something like that...I like your thinking. I start every telephone conversation (especially on my cell phone) by saying "shoot the president, what?":D

pax
June 25, 2005, 12:44 PM
Glenn ~

If you don't have any plans to join in the raid and help knock over the door of some private citizen just because your agency is (secretly & without warrants) keeping tabs on private business records (including book store sales), then the JBT label doesn't apply to you and you don't have any business taking offense that the label was used.

On the other hand, if you proudly work for one of the many government agencies which are lobbying for that very thing or something like it, and if you think it's just stupid, tin-foil hat stuff that any citizen would be concerned about it ... well, you can wear the shoe.

pax

It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once. -- David Hume

Art Eatman
June 25, 2005, 07:30 PM
Glenn, look: I think your comment is out of context with respect to this particular reference to ATF.

At age 71, I'm quite conversant with much of the history of the Nazi era.

Cong. Dingell might well have had that in mind when he applied the term to the ATF, of course. SFAIK, however, it was the first time it had been used about any US law enforcement entity. That such a pejorative is perceived to be appropriate strikes me as truly regrettable.

If one followed the events of Ruby Ridge and Waco during those periods, and also watched all of the public hearings televised on C-Span, the NRA's quite specific usage was correct. One can add to this Pate's excellent articles in Soldier of Fortune magazine, giving names, dates and places of ATF behavior and problems.

What's sad is that the misbehavior of a relative few reflects so badly upon the respectable many.

Art

insidious_calm
June 25, 2005, 07:49 PM
What PAX said. +1


I.C.

DMF
June 25, 2005, 08:27 PM
Just exactly how would any "JBTs," "the boogeyman," "swamp thing," or any other mythical entity you have created in your mind, know about a purchase of a particular book on Amazon? :rolleyes:

Now if your wife ends up dead with a .22 slug in her head, your friends tell the cops you have a .22 pistol, and when the cops search your house looking for the pistol they find a book on making silencers, and the materials necessary, well in that very specific situation the purchase of that book might "raise some red flags."

R.H. Lee
June 25, 2005, 08:47 PM
Your IP address was tracked, and you instantly went on a list. That list becomes part of your permanent file. So, you may as well order the book since you're on the list now anyway.
HAHAHAHAHA! You're giving them WAAAAY too much credit. :p

Jeff
June 27, 2005, 01:41 AM
In his zealous defensiveness, Glenn Bartley comes across as someone with either a comprehension problem, a reading problem, or both.
Or maybe he is just being over-zealous.

The original poster, whose comment(s) Glenn takes offense to, said this: "I certailny don't want to use this material to help me with a book, and then face JBT's in the middle of the night."

This means that if some law enforcement/military organization decides to confront Jmurman in the middle of the night because of a book he purchased (no laws broken), they are to be labeled as "JBTs."

Jmurman assigned a definition by example to the the term JBT, and that example is an unambiguously negative one. So if the example is negative, the term itself is negative by association to its definition. By logic, JBT can only describe something negative and nothing ambiguous, since the example used is a negative one. Jmurman did not say, "Those JBTs at the BATF offices are a bunch of ruthless Nazis...."

Why the hell did I need to explain this in such ridiculous detail? A little defensive, Glenn?

Flyboy
June 27, 2005, 03:20 AM
Your IP address was tracked, and you instantly went on a list.
Just out of curiosity, Derek, what is THR's log-retention policy?

Jmurman
June 27, 2005, 05:41 AM
Why the hell did I need to explain this in such ridiculous detail?

I dont know, but you did a great job of it! Thanks!

Derek Zeanah
June 27, 2005, 06:17 AM
Just out of curiosity, Derek, what is THR's log-retention policy?You don't need to be worrying about us -- you should be worrying about a black box at your ISP gathering God-knows-what about your Internet usage patterns (carnivore/omnivore/whatever, though I've heard they haven't worked out as well as planned...)

Basically, our records here show the IP any particular post was made from, and it's possible to do a search on any IP and see which users have posted from there. Makes it really easy to identify "habitual transgrassors" like Hardin/Gunkid/Latest Reincarnation.

There're the standard httpd logs as well, which are compiled into stats in webalizer as well.

Flyboy
June 27, 2005, 11:32 AM
Yeah, I know what's in Apache's logs, I was just wondering how long you keep them.

And yes, I heard Bush & Pals are trying to get a law through requiring ISPs to keep logs of where their customers go. Matter of fact, one article even quoted some mucketymuck as saying that if ISPs don't cooperate, they're "going to be viewed as being soft on child porn." Way to demonize, there!

Bet the Federales will want those logs on an administrative (fake) subpoena, too.

:barf:

sssteinkamp
June 27, 2005, 11:37 AM
BTW, sssteinkamp, you have been awarded sergant stripes in the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, unless you want to be a lt. or col. or something like that...I like your thinking. I start every telephone conversation (especially on my cell phone) by saying "shoot the president, what?"

LOL! I'll take Sergeant. When Homeland Security put up their 'call and report suspicious characters' hotline, I called and reported myself. That way I didn't have to wonder if I was on the list.

Shane

Nick1911
June 29, 2005, 11:28 AM
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