How long before Americans say *Enough*


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The Grand Inquisitor
June 24, 2005, 10:27 PM
It seems that every time something comes along that either rapes the Constitution or increasingly invalidates it (like the new Compulsory Property Aquisition ruling, the invasion of Iraq, or the "War" on drugs...ect ect) people keyed into the political process and those of us here on THR say "well, this will end with lives lost", and, invariably, we are proven wrong.

What I am wondering is how far things will go before there will be massive protest movements (the protests opposing the Iraq war were great, especially the ones with 25,000 plus people, but there were only a few, and because of that, NOTHING happened) and large scale civil disobediance movements (including violence) here in the US.

It seems to me that the elite classes have tested the waters and are quickly realizing that the average citizen is so scared of be viewed as "unpatriotic" that no matter how far things go, the elite can do as they please at the expense of the peasant classes.

Opinions?

Lastly, Noam Chomsky relates that young people in the US constantly approach him at his speaking functions and ask him, "well, what can I do to help things get better", whereas in Turkey and other places in the developing world, young people *tell* him, "this is what I did to make things better". As a University student, I see people ages 18-30 in their natural enviornment (politically speaking), and while they talk a good game, most of them do jack sh|t to actually change the politcal process they rail against; case in point: most University students wet themselves for four years screaming how horrible a president GW Bush was, and they wailed and wailed about voting him out of office, but when November came around, people ages 18-24 were mostly absent from the polls. They were too "busy" to show up, and because of them, we're plagued with four more years.

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Barbara
June 24, 2005, 10:33 PM
I see those same traits on gun boards. :)

Jeff
June 24, 2005, 10:40 PM
Americans have become complacent, indolent slobs.

Nothing would change unless the gov't took away cable or dish TV.

beerslurpy
June 24, 2005, 10:59 PM
I've been trying hard to change that one person at a time, but a huge majority of americans doesnt want to trouble themselves with thinking. Most are just concentrating on paying all their bills.

Our country has fallen a long way when most of the public will not only endure servitude, but eagerly forge themselves a chain made of credit.

armoredman
June 24, 2005, 11:04 PM
Bread and circuses, or in our case, food bank and cable TV...

bamawrx
June 24, 2005, 11:05 PM
Do you really think it was any different before the Revolutionary War?

Standing Wolf
June 24, 2005, 11:08 PM
Do you really think it was any different before the Revolutionary War?

Human nature was the same then as now; I suspect, however, the colonists had considerably less leisure time, and internet access was probably a lot more expensive in terms of real dollars.

Vernal45
June 24, 2005, 11:08 PM
Nothing would change unless the gov't took away cable or dish TV.

Sad but very true.

2nd Amendment
June 25, 2005, 12:00 AM
I've said this is the biggest issue of our time. I really believe that, and so far nobody has tried to correct me on it. This one really does hit everyone where it hurts most. The big thing is to make certain enough people understand this fact and don't brush it aside or even ignore it because of a lack of understanding. If there are no repercussions from it then those of us who are active in these things have failed to make certain Joe Schmo really understands, for once, exactly what is going on.

That or America truly is content to watch the tube, suck the suds and wait for the welfare check...and that is too depressing to contemplate for long.

jefnvk
June 25, 2005, 12:05 AM
we're plauged with four more years.

No, we are plagued with four more years, because we have locked ourselves into a system where every four years, we get to choose between an idiot and an elitist.

BTW, the breakaing point is very different for everyone. America has grown too big to be governed by one set of ideals, too big to get a good amount of people to get fed up and decide to split. 300 million people will never agree on anything.

joab
June 25, 2005, 12:13 AM
It seems that every time something comes along that either rapes the Constitution or increasingly invalidates it (like the new Compulsory Property Aquisition ruling, the invasion of Iraq, or the "War" on drugs...ect ect) people keyed into the political process and those of us here on THR say "well, this will end with lives lost", and, invariably, we are proven wrong. I don't totally disagree with you on the innate inaction of the masses, but.
There is a huge difference between this and the other issues you point out There is no agreement or uniform repulsion of one side or the other on the Iraq or drug issue. The imminent domain ruling is almost unanimously viewed as a vile repugnant act and a piss stain on the Constitution.

To answer your question How long before Americans say enough? If not real damn soon, I give up and will concede the fact that we are worthless and weak and deserve everything that we reap from now on.

I too predict that this ruling will lead to some very unpleasant actions in the very near future.

The big mistake this time was that they revoked the fifth amendment before they successfully revoked the second

bjbarron
June 25, 2005, 01:47 AM
This one really does hit everyone where it hurts most.

I would be interested to know what the percentage of the adult population really cares about the 1st or 2nd amendment...as compared to the percentage of the population who own property.

When McCain-Feingold got past the court, I was amazed to see that the right wingers, DUs, and Kos kids were all on the same side. But even with that, the general population didn't even notice the 1st amendment being shredded.

The comments I am reading about this eminent domain ruling has everyone on the same side again (except the hard-core socialists) with the added fillup of breaching the mental block of those who own property or might want to someday. I've got totally non-aware guys at work coming up to me asking *** is this eminent domain thingie.

Do you really think it was any different before the Revolutionary War?

A third pro-rebel, a third pro-crown, and a third didn't care one way or the other. Out of that mix we got a country. If history is any judge, it doesn't take a majority to make a country.

There is going to be tragedy out of this...blown up in all it's glory on the cable news. It is apparent to me that our ruling class has as little knowledge of history as does the current crop of high school students. Watch the news...history might just show that Timothy McVeigh was only the first. Imagine what the survival types out on the Snake River are thinking now.

There is at least a third of the country that doesn't want to live in fear of losing their homes. Americans (at least in the free states) don't like living in fear very much. From my ancient perspective it seems to me that this stuff is happening faster and faster.

There is a saying that the American style of government can be described as "...a system where you can pass any law, but your worst enemy will enforce it." The pace at which Americans are coming to realize who their worst enemy is seems to be accelerating.

KriegHund
June 25, 2005, 01:58 AM
We can talk all we want and alot of us do.

But noithign has come of it..yet...

In a secondary revolutionary war citizens would be sqaushed, going up agaisnt armored vehicles and aircraft with small arms and hommemade expolsives.

kal
June 25, 2005, 02:11 AM
"In a secondary revolutionary war citizens would be sqaushed, going up agaisnt armored vehicles and aircraft with small arms and hommemade expolsives."

Hey insurgents in Iraq tend to do a great job killing our troops so what makes you think we Americans cant do the same? Do you know that if civies were to go up against the government, many soldiers that are to face us would join our side or just desert the military to go take care of thier families. Civies have one of the many great advantages, they can kidnap family members of officials in office and force change. If any civilian population is brave and tough enough to say "Hey we dont like whats going on", the civies will ALWAYS win.

Oh yeah and we outnumber them. :cool:

cslinger
June 25, 2005, 02:11 AM
1st, folks have been bitching about the current state of affairs since the dawn of time.

2nd, our state of affairs, although not nearly perfect and far from the way it should be is not yet to a point where we need to be shooting anybody.

3rd, I would much rather everybody take the time to write one letter or donate 10 bucks or just simply cast one vote then "lock and load" preparing for impending doom.

4th, if the time ever comes where the populace feels the need to rise up against the government then it will not be a stand up, pitched battle. It will be lots of little "terrorist" actions. Car bombs, IEDs etc. See Iraq.

5th, The unfortunite thing about living in a country such as ours is we are at the WILL OF THE PEOPLE and like other posters have said as long as we have cable TV, cold beer, NASCAR and Playstations then we are just fine. We here may not agree with that but if this group becomes the majority and freely votes to further this then technically we as a minority are obliged to follow are we not. I realize we are a republic, but even a republic can change drastically due to the will of the people.

6th, My guess is that there are more people who feel the same way as most of us and that when things snap it will be less violence and more cultural we're just not gonna take it (PC, Judicial Activism etc.) anymore. Some of this has already started happening and I believe the current trend of "extreme" conservatism is part of that backlash.

My 2 cents which is worth exactly well it's worth jack, cuz I am just some idiot sipping his whiskey banging away on his keyboard.

All that being said VOTE. VOTE IN YOUR PRIMARIES. VOTE IN YOUR LOCALS. VOTE IN THE BIG ONEs. We are a powerful block and we wield more power in the ballot box then with the ammo box, for the time being anyway.

Chris

cslinger
June 25, 2005, 02:15 AM
Oh and buy a Barret Light .50 so we can have a chance against their tanks, and shoot their planes from the sky and knock out their satalite surveillance. :rolleyes: :scrutiny:

jefnvk
June 25, 2005, 02:16 AM
When McCain-Feingold got past the court, I was amazed to see that the right wingers, DUs, and Kos kids were all on the same side.

The problem is, that even when they get united against something, they just spend time blaming the other side. The whole property thing, no one likes. The DUers blame the conservatives, we sit here blaming the liberals. I try to blame the 5 geniuses on the SC. I don't know which sde they were affiliated with, but their position was wrong.

Refirignis
June 25, 2005, 02:17 AM
Martial Law, suspension of all rights (err...privileges, I mean), and house-to-house searches and arrests might do it.

rick_reno
June 25, 2005, 02:58 AM
The only way massive protests will happen is if McDonalds starts serving cold Big Macs. As long as the fast food is cheap and warm, the masses are happy. These horrible crimes that have been mentioned impact such a small number of people that it's statistically noise.

I would be interested to know what the percentage of the adult population really cares about the 1st or 2nd amendment...as compared to the percentage of the population who own property.

I'd be more interested to know what percentage of the population even knows there is a 1st or 2nd Amendment. I think we might be shocked by the results of that sample.

fjolnirsson
June 25, 2005, 03:02 AM
In a secondary revolutionary war citizens would be sqaushed, going up agaisnt armored vehicles and aircraft with small arms and hommemade expolsives.

Guerillas tend to win conflicts. Add in video cameras on every corner. If it happens, it will be long, and ugly. Look at the trouble we've had with Iraq.
Who was it with that quote about a rifle behind every blade of grass?

KriegHund
June 25, 2005, 03:05 AM
Truth.

We could carry on the fight for 100 yeasra nd still not win that way though. Harras yes, win, not really. Unless it would get to a point where they just give up, but with those kind of tactics it would be a very very long time to wear them down.

only1asterisk
June 25, 2005, 03:20 AM
How long before Americans say *Enough*

Never. It makes me sad to say, but that's the answer. Individuals will, but never people in any number.

David

Crosshair
June 25, 2005, 03:25 AM
I think the houseing bubble will pop and that will be the point that many people are going to look around and say *** happened. With the ecomomy going the way it is I am afraid that things can get MUCH worse than they are right now. I think we are about due for another 1929.

Feanaro
June 25, 2005, 03:52 AM
Got kids? A job, a business, a house, dog, car, land, and accessories for all that? Are those things dear to you? Why would Joe Public risk losing all that when "it's not so bad", he thinks? The average person does not give a spit about most things as long as they don't affect him. Most people aren't really feeling the pinch. You and I might see it but even we are most likely used to many, many little invasions that would have outraged people 100 years ago, had they been suddenly thrust upon them. But we are gradually acclimated to more. More taxes, more paperwork, more red-tape, more pointless spending, more restrictions, more and more.

We are not doing anything because most of us need to be told what to do. The average citizen alive during the Revolution was likely no better. Everyone didn't decide as one "Well, the Brits are right buggers, let's off 'em". Some of them decided on this course of action and pulled the rest along with them. I am reminded of the end of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein(spoilers along the starboard, matey).



The people have overthrown their jailers. These are a people who lived in anarchy, or close to it. And they found their new government. Of the people, by the people, all that good stuff. And this government slowly starts to regulate everything that moves. The revolution is only just finished, the ink isn't even dry yet. As Daltrey wailed, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

gc70
June 25, 2005, 08:39 AM
The prospects of massive armed action are remote in the extreme. Change will occur, but don't expect a replay of 1776 - instead, think of 1933. We had a revolution in this country when FDR took office and not a shot was fired. I agree with cslinger that when enough people are tired enough of what's going on, we will have another silent revolution - at the ballot box.

wingman
June 25, 2005, 08:47 AM
Our public schools along with the media have spent the past 30 years turning out blind consumers. Everything has an end and I believe greed on the part
of corporations will do it.

Mongo the Mutterer
June 25, 2005, 09:57 AM
My old man told me once something that made a hell of lot of sense. He says the US's political view swings in 50 to 60 year cycles.

We were liberal for the last 50, now we are going conservative. Makes sense to me. At least the Communists and Socialists haven't conquered the American people (in the RED states).

It doesn't happen in one LOUD BANG. It happens when the people get PO'd. Get enough people PO'd and government changes. If government doesn't change, the people change the government.

Yep, we are dumb, fat, and happy. Me too. But to STAY dfh, we have to be vigilant. The people on this forum are. We have to expand our membership. Talk to our friends about ideas.

The American Revolution was successful with 30% of the American People participating, and giving us the longest standing government in existance today. Get used to the 70% who either are against you or who don't care.

fletcher
June 25, 2005, 11:02 AM
How long before Americans say *Enough*

Short answer - too long.

Johnnybgood
June 25, 2005, 11:20 AM
All of my Senators, Congressmen. I told them it's time to impeach, remove, and Defrock those who would trample on the constitution. Next comes phone calls and letters. If their is enough of a stink, maybe someone will notice. Oh yeah, I am going to make sure that everyone I know understands just how bad this really is.

NIGHTWATCH
June 25, 2005, 11:33 AM
A possible scenario...

A: Major increase in the cost of fuel.
B: Power outages lasting weeks if not months ( desperation caused by no air-conditioning, sitcoms and nowhere to escape from reality).
C: Food & water shortages ( darkness, hunger and thirst will drive some to the brink) .
D: Mass unemployment - cant afford to pay the bills yet they persist.


At that point I think the response will be severe against government and corporate America.

thereisnospoon
June 25, 2005, 11:50 AM
First of all, the Moderators of this site would ban me for life if I posted what I thought should happen RIGHT NOW, because tlike the people in the movie "The Village", those are the "things we don't speak of". :cuss:

Unfortunately, since we can't discuss them, we can not conceive of them in reality and they are therefore pushed to the recesses of our mind. :banghead:

It really wouldn't take a "mass uprising" just a small well thought out plan of action to get some of the politcocritters to remeber WHO IS IN CONTROL...

Alas, until we do SOMETHING, they are!!!!!!!! :cuss: :banghead: :barf:

wolf
June 25, 2005, 12:45 PM
they take your $ away via taxes..well we need roads schools etc..so they take your guns away..many feel this is a good thing.. THEN..they take your house away..many feel,"well its for the good of all, the govt knows best"..they take your car away..some feel "well..it was causing pollution and global warming"..they take your food away.."well..it was full of fat and chemicals..this new green cookie isn't that bad" .. they take your mind away.."well..i hardly ever used it..now ill just follow the instructions and not have to worry about making a mistake"..

uprising..revolution..where??..not in happy meal city..not now not ever..we can all see out the window..lets just be happy they dont take the dame window away

wolf

ravinraven
June 25, 2005, 01:00 PM
We said "Enough" back in 1776.

It is being said now in more and more places. But I too doubt a frontal attact on a nuclear power will take place.

Remember. Some of those jet jockeys and tank commanders and a lot of cops are saying "Enough!" too. The trick is to organize the people who have "had it up to here," and quietly do non THR approved activities to those people who are putting it to us. That way we can preserve what is good about the country and surgically remove the rotten spots.

For example, suppose the main men behind the New London land grab suddenly disappeared never to be heard from again. Who would be eager to restart that grab? Who would be comfortable starting a grab somewhere else? "Not I," said The Little Red Hen.

rr

ps. Let's create a new acronym. Non THR approved activity = NONTHRAA

example: "Let's go and NONTHRAA those five judges."

rr

BeLikeTrey
June 25, 2005, 01:07 PM
I will either be one of those that says "enough" or start voting conscience like libertarian (though I think some of them are a bit wacko)

I stand corrected in my opinion in previous posts. I no longer look at who can get elected but now I will vote my conscience. I admit it I was wrong. If Bush was against it he would have come out and said so. I hope to God we can have a groundswelling in the ranks of libertarian or other strict constitutional party...

Derby FALs
June 25, 2005, 01:59 PM
The problem is, that even when they get united against something, they just spend time blaming the other side. The whole property thing, no one likes. The DUers blame the conservatives, we sit here blaming the liberals. I try to blame the 5 geniuses on the SC. I don't know which sde they were affiliated with, but their position was wrong.

John Paul Stevens - Republican
Anthony Kennedy - Republican
David H. Souter - Republican
Ruth Bader Ginsburg - Democrat
Stephen G. Breyer - Democrat


We were liberal for the last 50, now we are going conservative. Makes sense to me. At least the Communists and Socialists haven't conquered the American people (in the RED states).

Conservatives? MUHAHAHAHA!

I stand corrected in my opinion in previous posts. I no longer look at who can get elected but now I will vote my conscience. I admit it I was wrong. If Bush was against it he would have come out and said so. I hope to God we can have a groundswelling in the ranks of libertarian or other strict constitutional party...

Why would Bush come out against it? The same practice is the only way he ever made a profit in a business venture...

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 02:09 PM
The government is run by those who show up. Start showing up.

Show up for elections, show up to work campaigns, run for government yourself, heck, if you don't like what kids are being taught in schools, run for the school board. Go to your Legislative committee hearings and testify on whatever freedom related piece of legislation is up there.

This battle can be won, but we all have to stop expecting others to do the hard work for us.

fjolnirsson
June 25, 2005, 02:27 PM
The government is run by those who show up. Start showing up.

Show up for elections, show up to work campaigns, run for government yourself, heck, if you don't like what kids are being taught in schools, run for the school board. Go to your Legislative committee hearings and testify on whatever freedom related piece of legislation is up there.

This battle can be won, but we all have to stop expecting others to do the hard work for us.

AHA! Somebody else who "gets it".

thereisnospoon
June 25, 2005, 02:49 PM
BWahahahahahahahaha!

You really believe that crap????

These people take our money (taxes) and our land (ED) because they can based on the "biggest Stick" principle (i.e. at the end of a gun). They believe that since Americans have allowed them to take our money at the end of a gun for years and years, and we have allowed them to waste it...now they believe (and rightfully so) that they can just start taking the property they want as well. BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE BIGGEST STICK.

I heard a radio talking head (I love this guy and listen to him every day) speaking after this announcement and couldn't believe my ears. Ha began calling for civil disobedience and when asked what he meant, he said we should all be willing to get arrested for standing up to the land grabbers? Get arrested????? And then there should be more of us waiting to be arrested and eventually we would win???????? Huh?! How is someone getting arrested going to help???

The ONLY thing that will stop this crap is a NONTHRAA as one poster put it. We have already lost the "softwar" most of you write about...

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 03:59 PM
This week, we had three pro-gun bills being debated in the state legislature..about a total of 6 people showed up to testify on these bills, besides members of government agencies. You know why freedom doesn't win? Because no one wants to blow off a vacation day to go up to their Capitol and make sure its Legislators are doing their job. Because we spend money on guns, while anti-gunners are spending money on candidates and advertising.

Good luck trying to get a good showing at a revolution, though.

(But you know what? Because of those 6 people, the legislation passed out of committee, and in one case, with an amendment that made a huge improvement. Thank goodness for people willing to be there.)

jefnvk
June 25, 2005, 04:04 PM
One ohter thing I thought about. Think long and hard before getting fed up and resorting to violence. It may well change the gov't, but will it change it for the better? It could easily go in any direction at any speed once you get it rolling.

New Federalist
June 25, 2005, 04:05 PM
cslinger wrote:

"2nd, our state of affairs, although not nearly perfect and far from the way it should be is not yet to a point where we need to be shooting anybody...
All that being said VOTE. VOTE IN YOUR PRIMARIES. VOTE IN YOUR LOCALS. VOTE IN THE BIG ONEs. We are a powerful block and we wield more power in the ballot box then with the ammo box, for the time being anyway."

The problem with America today is that mentality quoted above. Things are to the point where unrest must take place. It's time for pitchforks and torches!!! Voting does absolutely nothing...except make you believe you have a voice in the current system of govenment. If voting makes a difference then why do the current party hacks and "business-as-usual" so-called "conservatives have almost a 90% re-election rate. If your vote truly meant something then your disapproval and vote should remove them from office. It doesn't beacuse of the current liberal/socialist system of government that we have allowed to happen. Special interests and the blocs of voting that they control (i.e. Welfare and Social Security recipents) vote for who ever will continure their handouts. The average citizen is no longer represented...this is called mobocracy/democracy. This country was founded as a Republic but has been ever so slowly turned into the broken system we have today. The system is broke because we were to lazy or not courageous enough to say no. Ben Franlin told a woman after the creation of the U.S. Constitution that they had created "a Republic, if you can keep it." Well we failed. The government has trampled on every ideal and value this country was founded on: Life, Liberty, and with the current Supreme Court decision ...Property Rights. When is enough? NOW. Stop taking the "high road" and quit wasting all your time posting hundreds of posts! Do something, be willing to lose your homes and finances, be willing to lose your life for the cause of Freedom. Then you will be Free and have nothing left to lose, then you will be productive and active. The Government will be scared of you and seek to destroy you...that should be every liberty loving patriots goal in life. The tipping point has come and gone...time to catch up. The time has come and true patriots know that to which I refer, and to those I salute you. May God Bless you. Let it begin with me.

P.S. Some of you will take issue with me and thats fine, you don't deserve to be free because you are content with being a slave or too cowardly to fight for your freedom. I also will not be responding to any challenges to my comments, not because I can't logically and intelligently defend them, but because there are Enemies foreign and domestic to deal with. This is what I will be utilizing my energizes and time taking care of. Not bitching and moaning on this site, like most of you. I only registered to post this and to let the world know I chose Action. Come Hell or high Water!

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 04:05 PM
You're a very wise young man.

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 04:08 PM
Um, that was directed at Jeff.

Gung-Ho
June 25, 2005, 04:31 PM
I cannot begin to imagine the number of people that this "property rights" ruling by the suppremes has well and truly PO'ed. Now comes the part when they start killing the eighty year olds that won't leave the houses they were born in. (Well, maybe not kill them. I'm sure a few flashbangs and a little CS will bring them around.) Yup, I'm proud to be an American alright....it's just my government that disgusts me.

Gung-Ho
June 25, 2005, 04:33 PM
Um, that was directed at Jeff.

I thought it was directed at the New Fed....I was about to agree.

Pointman
June 25, 2005, 04:44 PM
“If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

— Samuel Adams

Turkey Creek
June 25, 2005, 04:52 PM
H G Wells wrote, "if you make men sufficiently fearful or angry, the hot red eyes of cavemen will glare out at you"- until the government finally over reaches and has taken or puts in serious jeopardy all those things that we are afraid of loosing, ie house, money, job etc, no one will do anything- we will have to be finally put in the situation of "nothing left to loose" before we grow the big brass ones our Founding Fathers had- as long as the government is smart enough to leave us with something we are afraid of loosing they are safe- but history tells us that governments always eventually hang themselves- it will be awhile but it will happen- my generation has doomed our grandchildren and great grandchildren to do what we should have done for them- but an interesting scenario might save them- suppose one homeowner refuses to relinquish his property to the Feds acting under the recent SCOTUS decision, and puts out a call for help- and suppose just one individual arrives first, and then maybe three more, and then maybe ten and one hundred and finally one thousand "militia" are there to say no to the Feds- are the Federales' going to start a firefight with 1000 citizens, not on your life- the political fallout alone would be disasterous- and perhaps the original spark is enough to galvanize thousands-won't happen but it's nice to think it could-

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 05:17 PM
Uh, yeah, comfort and all that..I'm entering my 12th straight hour today working on a pro-gun project. Been at it literally since 5:30 am, with only a break to cook lunch for the kids. I expect I'll be at it again until 11:00 tonight, like I was last night. I spend about 20 hours a week outside of my day job doing this stuff. Any idea how frustrating it is that more people won't spend an hour a week? Any idea how much could be accomplished if they did?

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 05:56 PM
Just found this and thought it was appropriately offensive. :)

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." -- Isaac Asimov

Pointman
June 25, 2005, 06:09 PM
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." -- Isaac Asimov

Asimov also thought we should live as one big happy global utopia. Obviously he would be opposed to anything that would stand in the way of that goal, of which violent opposition was surely at the top of the list.

Otherguy Overby
June 25, 2005, 06:20 PM
Your vote counts?

Okay, Pavlov got dogs to salivate when a bell was rung. Someone else got rats to push a lever to get food. It was soon found that the rats would keep pushing the lever even though the food reward came rarely or not at all.

Now, supposedly we a motivated for more than just food. Better than rats we are?

So riddle me this, how come we keep pushing the vote button when we get such dismal results?

thereisnospoon
June 25, 2005, 06:28 PM
Barabara, if you would be so kind as to delegate some of that pro-gun project to me I nwould gladly help as best I can, whatever the project.

That being said...

I am willing to bet that nothing will come of this anyway, but carping and moaning. Most lack the will to act, others know not what to do. Here is what I propose:

We have a very large body here at THR. Surely, together, we can think of something to do to make the people understand that we will no longer be pushed around...

Any ideas?

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 06:40 PM
Oh, man..are you serious?? Cause I can do that..right this minute, I'm doing some research and it might even be something you'd enjoy doing!

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 06:41 PM
Heh..I didn't say it was a great quote..in fact I found it in rather unseemly location. :)

HonorsDaddy
June 25, 2005, 06:47 PM
I dont know if he was serious - but i'd be happy to help :)

Yeah - some of us actually LIKE research...

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 06:50 PM
I just sent him an email. I could use another set of eyes, though. :)

Thank you guys..seriously!

HonorsDaddy
June 25, 2005, 06:51 PM
Barbara,

You can send me an email through my profile if you want. :)

--Eric

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 06:52 PM
Just did..its kind of long, though. :(

fjolnirsson
June 25, 2005, 07:14 PM
Barbara, I'm also willing to help, if I can. I'm still waiting to hear back on the guns/kids day thing.

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 07:32 PM
I know, I know..I was just thinking of that the other day, but I got waylaid by another project that sucking up my life, plus my sister dropped another two kids in my lap (hopefully for a month and not 18 years like that last one!) I'll get it done, I promise!

:)

The other two are helping out, too but I'll shoot you some details and see if you're interested.

Barbara
June 25, 2005, 07:37 PM
Ok, email sent to your gmail account.

jefnvk
June 25, 2005, 11:48 PM
You're a very wise young man.

Thank you much!

I'd be glad to help out with you project, if I wern't heading for Florida tomorrow :D

If you are still looking for help in two weeks or so, shoot me an e-mail or PM.

Barbara
June 26, 2005, 12:37 PM
There is No Spoon is a genius. I just want to say that.

He found exactly what I was looking for..perfect!

:D

Hey, Jeff..if you have any time August 1st-6th, I could use some help then. Would be down in SE Michigan, so you'd have to travel a bit. I promise it'll be fun and very worth while! Great location, too, heh.

Derek Zeanah
June 26, 2005, 12:49 PM
We have a very large body here at THR. Surely, together, we can think of something to do to make the people understand that we will no longer be pushed around...

Any ideas?The only thing I can think of is starting another forum that deals with discussion of this particular hypothetical. I see a number of potential Smith Act issues involved in that, however, and have no desire to see my server cluster impounded as part of some "investigation." ;)

Monkeyleg
June 26, 2005, 06:50 PM
Barbara isn't being Pollyanna-ish about this at all.

There are actually people who want to run for public office because they believe in our Constitution. Unfortunately, neither party likes these people very much.

With enough help, though, such people can be elected.

WI state Senator Tom Reynolds is one such person. I met him for the first time in 1994, when I was steaming about the AWB. He was an unknown running against a liberal incumbent congressman. He attracted enough attention to get ~46% of the vote.

For the next three election cycles, committed volunteers went out and did the stuff that 99% of the population doesn't want to spend time doing: distributing literature door to door, dropping off yard signs, organizing fund-raisers, etc.

In 2002, Reynolds decided to run for state senate against an incumbent Republican. The Republican Party tried to axe him, but his volunteer base persevered, and he won both the primary and the general election.

He's now a thorn in the side of the powers-that-be in the party in Madison because he votes his conscience and his principles. I doubt there's even one vote he's cast that the majority of THR members would disagree with.

But it took hundreds of volunteers to get one such man into office. People who spent their weekends working on a campaign rather than shooting or playing golf.

As anyone who's tried to organize volunteers will attest, getting good ones is an excrutiatingly difficult exercise. But, once you have them, they're good as gold.

Back to the original question, though: I don't think the majority of Americans will ever say "enough." Few people know more about the real news than what they see in a few minutes of "happy talk" on the local news. Newspaper readership is at an all-time low.

Go out on the street and ask people to name at least two SC justices.

The good news for us is that such ignorance can play into our hands if we work for the right candidate. The bad news is that the majority of the public doesn't vote based on principles or the Constitution. It votes based on what's in it for them.

Even more frightening is that the public votes based on the candidate's appearance. A recent study analyzed the appearance of winners versus losers in scores of nationwide campaigns, and found common physical characteristics. I guess ol' Abe Lincoln would be out of the question today.

With the aging of the Baby Boomers and the surprisingly conservative positions taken by many younger voters, we're seeing a turn toward more traditional values. Whether that continues, who knows?

But I'm not ready to count out the political process just yet.

richyoung
June 27, 2005, 02:01 PM
We here may not agree with that but if this group becomes the majority and freely votes to further this then technically we as a minority are obliged to follow are we not.

NO! Our forefathers instituted a republic, not MOB RULE. This very contingency is WHY we have seperated powers and a written constitution that puts certain things "off limits". Unfortunately, the system is fatally broke - I fear on ly brave men with arms can restore it.

DRZinn
June 27, 2005, 06:29 PM
ps. Let's create a new acronym. Non THR approved activity = NONTHRAA

example: "Let's go and NONTHRAA those five judges."I like it!

I stand corrected in my opinion in previous posts. I no longer look at who can get elected but now I will vote my conscience. I admit it I was wrong.Welcome!

Johnnybgood
June 27, 2005, 09:55 PM
I called them today. Next they are getting letters. I talked with Congressman Shimkus office. I had heard a rumor that he was going to run for Governer of Illinois. He is the kind of man we want in office. I phoned him, Thanked him for his standing for our constitutional rights, Asked him to help remove the liberal 5 from the Supreme court, then volunteered my services/money should he run for governer. Barbara. I not much on research but If I can help I will give it a try.

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