Very close call


PDA






chaim
June 26, 2005, 01:07 PM
On Friday night I had a close call. One more example of why we need CCW in MD.

On the sabbath, as an Orthodox Jew, I do not drive. We walk on the sabbath. I was walking back with a friend from one of my rabbis' homes where I had the sabbath evening meal when we detoured from the route I usually take to where I usually spend the sabbath. There was a loose dog that was acting in a threatening manner towards us and I didn't have my pepper spray with me so we decided to take an alternate route back.

Well, when I got up to the main road near the intersection with the road I usually walk, I ran into two Orthodox guys trying to flag down passing cars so they could borrow a cell phone (very unusual since outside life and death situations we can't make phone calls on the sabbath). Apparently, they had just been accosted on the road I usually walk by three thugs at gunpoint. Now, to put the danger in perspective, Orthodox Jews don't carry cash on the sabbath, and you really don't want to frustrate someone pointing a gun at you by telling them you don't have what they are asking for. Luckily, they didn't get shot, only a little roughed up. Had my friend and I walked my usual route we would have been joining these two gentlemen.

Anyway, to let you have the rest of the story, my other rabbi came by as they were trying to flag down cars. They told him what happened and he took them to his home to call the police from there (three guys running around pointing guns at people and demanding money is life and death enough for us to be allowed to make a phone call to the police to try to stop them). I don't think the thugs have been found yet.

I must say, after running into those guys, I really didn't feel very good about being without my guns. Since I stay at a friend's home on the sabbath and didn't have any of my guns at his apartment I didn't have any guns available even after the incident (I don't live in the community and I need to be in walking distance from synagogue so I stay with a friend on the sabbath). After that situation, if I had one with me I would definately have ignored MD's laws against carry and I would have carried on Sat. We must have MD's CCW laws changed to shall-issue.

If you enjoyed reading about "Very close call" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
carebear
June 26, 2005, 01:26 PM
Let me preface by saying I'm not Jewish , but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, and I do read a lot. Also, I have gone round and round with some of my friends from church over the Christian morality of carrying weapons, in and out of church, so the topic of "religion and guns" is near and dear to my heart. I got that one settled to my satisfaction through study and a pastorial opinion.

So, it immediately popped into my head after reading your report whether there is consistent understanding within Talmudic Law, at least in your area, on carrying a weapon for protection on the Sabbath, as it is a "burden" though not usually CCW'd, "in the hand" so to speak.

I found this essay http://www.gunownersalliance.com/Rabbi_0001.htm which is kind of equivocal.

I guess my question is, if you care to share, how did your beliefs as a apparently practicing, devout Jewish gun owner, evolve?

dasmi
June 26, 2005, 01:33 PM
Your life is more prescious than following MD's unconstitutional laws. Not that I'm suggesting you break them, just a thinking out loud.

Preacherman
June 26, 2005, 02:01 PM
From an Orthodox perspective, would carrying a gun on the Sabbath be considered "work"?

chaim
June 26, 2005, 02:24 PM
Carebear and Preacherman, carrying on the sabbath (along with many things in Orthodox Judaism) is something that is strongly dependent upon circumstances.

The discussion carebear links to is about carrying without something called an eruv (which is a complicated subject, so lets just stick with "with an eruv" and "without an eruv" instead of getting off track on getting into the details of an eruv- an entire tractate of both the Gemora and Mishnah are dedicated to the concept of an eruv). Without an eruv we cannot carry even our house keys or push a baby carriage- we cannot carry any item between a public or private domain. The discussion linked discussed weather a weapon can be considered a worn item- anything that is basically an item of clothing or a normally worn body ornament can be worn on the sabbath. Also, even on the (likely) event that a gun wouldn't qualify as an ornament there are many exceptions in cases of real danger to life and limb (but before anyone should carry on that they need to speak with a rabbi knowlegable in such matters who will then look at the specific circumstances before making a decision- few people are experts in every area and one needs to consult an expert).

In an area with an eruv (like Baltimore and many major US Jewish communties) things are simpler. We can carry anything we can generally use on the sabbath (however, we cannot carry or handle items, such as car keys, that we can't use on the sabbath). Generally, shooting a gun on the sabbath (recreationally) would be forbidden, so guns would be items we can't handle. However, at this level (not carrying what you can't use is rabbinical while not carrying without an eruv is from G-d) the "danger to life" threshold is a lot lower and I would venture to guess that the crime levels in most US cities would be great enough to count. I do know that there are people in Baltimore who carry to synagogue on the sabbath (mostly former law enforcement) at the request of their rabbis so Baltimore is definately at that level.

There is a third consideration for me however. We are generally required to follow the law of the land. So long as it doesn't require us to violate the requirements of our religion, even if the law of the land is stricter (such as no CCW), we are usually required to follow the law and if we don't we are just as much in violation of our religion as if our religion itself banned something. MD does not allow CCW. Of course, the danger to life consideration is always a consideration when it comes to any restriction so it is possible we could break the law if following it put us in danger (I don't know if MD, and Baltimore specifically, is bad enough to allow carry without a CCW).

chaim
June 26, 2005, 02:49 PM
I guess my question is, if you care to share, how did your beliefs as a apparently practicing, devout Jewish gun owner, evolve?

Carebear, you seem to have three questions. The express one above, the question you and Preacherman essentially had that I just answered, plus you allude to a question about carry in a synagogue (based on your short discussion about carry in a church).

Let me start (as I should have in my previous post) with I am not a Rabbi and thus not expert in all aspects of Jewish Law (Halacha) on these issues. However, I am a fairly educated layman.

My understanding of carrying a weapon in a synagogue is that you can't carry openly. It is considered disrespectful to take a weapon into a holy place (remember, various items in the Temple had to be made of whole stone, and not hewn stone, because it would be disrespectful to take a bladed impliment to the stone when bladed impliments were impliments of war and the finished product was to be used for a holy purpose). Something about the weapon being meant to kill (weather offensively or defensively) while prayer and worship is about life (loosely speaking).

However, again there is the danger to self and others that allows exeptions to many restrictions. Also, so far as I know the above paragraph only references a ban on carrying openly. I'm pretty sure in general, and certain in the case of some danger to self, that concealed carry is just fine.


Now as for how I got to where I am, both becoming a gunowner and pro-gun rights and becoming an Orthodox Jew (I wasn't raised Orthodox) came from a similar evolution.

I started out very far left-wing both religiously and politically. I was actually raised as a Unitarian (despite being Jewish) which is a far left wing religion that basically takes humanism and far left politics and makes those a religion (any Unitarian Universalists out there who disagree, I do apologize for a rather harsh view there, but as a former UU that is the impression I came away with). Until my early 20s I was an agnostic, and while against outright gun bans I was for strong gun control.

As I got older I slowly became more conservative politically and religiously. Additionally, I always liked shooting guns (I shot for the first time in Army basic training and loved it) and planned to own some. By my mid-20s I definately believed in G-d* and I could not continue to pretend to be a Unitarian, and by then I was a conservative Democrat. I knew I was Jewish (mom is Jewish) and I "felt" Jewish so I started researching the Jewish "movements" and found that only Orthodox Judaism really worked. Today I am a religious Orthodox Jew, tending to the right wing religiously of Orthodox Judaism (I am "borderline" Chassidic), and I am now a registered Republican as well. Both my far-left father and a couple far-right friends think I no longer fit the moderate label I use for myself politically, but I am not yet emotionally ready to identify as right-wing (despite having people on both the right and left telling me I am now pretty far right).

As for guns specifically I bought my first 5-6 years ago. The more I learned about guns the more I learned some of my "reasonable" gun controls I supported were anything but "reasonable" and I'm now a strong 2nd Amendment purist.

So, while I guess I left out quite a few details (for brevity), my growth both politically and religiously were fairly in tandem and probably related.




* To preempt a likely question I write "G-d" instead of writting it out because we consider it to be disrespectful to throw away or mistreat any piece of paper with any name of G-d written on it (if it had an actual name of G-d and not just the English word it would be more than disrespectful but a grave sin) and I don't know if anyone will print this post out and if so I don't know how they'll treat it. I don't want to contribute to someone else doing something they shouldn't.

carebear
June 26, 2005, 04:12 PM
Thank you chaim.

It's always interesting to hear where folks who essentially believe in the same things (on guns anyway) are coming from.

Really points up the universality and applicability of the concepts.

Standing Wolf
June 26, 2005, 04:23 PM
Let me preface by saying I'm not Jewish , but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...

I'm not Jewish, either, but I use both a mouse and a track ball.

Seriously: I wasn't legally able to carry a gun when I was a subject of the People's Republic of California. I carried a knife. In due time, realizing a knife wouldn't likely do me an awful lot of good against a gun-toting illegal alien, of which there were a great many, I returned to the United States.

Not coincidentally, I discovered there's a great deal less violent crime in Colorado than the P.R.C.

Clean97GTI
June 26, 2005, 04:28 PM
My Bible-thumping Christian mother put it well.

"It's hard to do god's work when you are dead."

chaim
June 26, 2005, 04:48 PM
Seriously: I wasn't legally able to carry a gun when I was a subject of the People's Republic of California. I carried a knife. In due time, realizing a knife wouldn't likely do me an awful lot of good against a gun-toting illegal alien

When I realized what almost happened I must say I was very thankful not to have either the pepper spray or the knife I usually have on me (I don't know why I choose the leave them at home that night). Both guys were searched when they said they had no money (before they were roughed up) and I can just imagine what would have happened if they found the pepper spray and knife, and I seriously doubt I'd have drawn either on 3 guys with a gun (I don't know if they all had guns or only one of them but either way I'd have likely left the knife and spray in my pocket).

Standing Wolf
June 26, 2005, 08:33 PM
When I realized what almost happened I must say I was very thankful not to have either the pepper spray or the knife I usually have on me...

I understand. If 'twere me, I'd move to Virginia—or any other state where my right to defend my life isn't negated by government.

Old Fuff
June 26, 2005, 09:53 PM
Well I consider this to be an interesting and informative education ... :)

I think If I were in your particular situation I would discuss what happen and the possible consequences with the Rabbi of the Temple you attend. If his views were totally negative I would consider finding another Temple, even if it was in a nearby ajoining state.

You can replace many things, but not your life.

K-Romulus
June 27, 2005, 09:01 AM
Chaim, I think that you may have the workings of a valid CCW application, even in MD.

You described being harassed by some neo-Nazi type a few months ago, and now three of your friends were held up at gun point. Was there anything said during the holdup to indicate some sort of anti-Semitic sentiment?

If so, I think you may have a good chance at getting a MD CCW based on documented ethnic/religious harassment. (Yes, even in the Stepford State of MD) :uhoh:

Glad you guys are OK.

The Rabbi
June 27, 2005, 09:37 AM
Here in the liberated state of TN we do have shall-issue and I do have a CCW.
There definitely seem to be opinions that permit carrying guns on Sabbath in cases of danger. I walk as well and it is about 1 mile on a very busy street. I dont have any fear (OK, not a lot) of being accosted or anything like that.
But one time I did have a slightly unusual incident and I was perfectly comfortable carrying a gun well concealed. If I had incidents like Chaim describes happen to me I would doubtless do it all the time, although I would carry it in some unusual way and avoid any severe prohibition.
I recall when the riots happened in LA a number of years ago we had a fellow here who's in-laws lived in LA. He told me all the men who had guns carried them that day to synagogue.

M2 Carbine
June 27, 2005, 10:42 AM
My Wife and I were born and raised in Baltimore, Maryland in 1938.
We left MD in the mid 60's when I went to the Army flight school.

Through out the early 60's I constantly illegally carried a GI 45 in my car.
Before we were married I gave my future Wife a P38 for home protection.
After we were married my Wife carried a 22 pistol, especially to work. She was a supervisor at the phone company in a steadily deteriorating Baltimore.

As a Baltimore policeman I knew of people that worked in very bad neighborhoods that illegally carried pistols.
I even sold a pistol to a Priest. :D

In Texas for many years before we finally got the concealed carry, we each carried a Colt 1903 in our cars.

I am normally an easy going, honest, law abiding person but I refused to allow myself and especially my Wife to be unable to protect ourselves.
The anti gun politicians and bleeding heart liberals can all go :cuss:

What you do, of course, is up to you.

Baba Louie
June 27, 2005, 11:43 AM
Never one to cast aspersion to another or about anothers religious belief...

I would hate to read or hear about someone being hurt, maimed or killed due to their religious dogma stopping them from self defense; but then, to some, faith is more important than all else. While that is good for them, I do have a tough time thinking about some barbarian types committing acts of evil on a man (or men or women) while these same good, religious people do nothing to protect g-d's gift of life due to... to anything, be it laws of man or laws of g-d (as interpretted by religious leaders).

I easily rationalize self defense as being one of nature's prime laws.

Once I am past my prime and my children are grown, my grandchildren well on their life's path, and I have no immediate value to my family's well being, then perhaps I can live the life of a pure & perfect human, one who hears no evil, sees no evil, speaks no evil, commits no evil and thus receives no evil....

NAAAAHHHH, never happen. Evil must be beat down by good men on a regular basis. Fortunately (or is it unfortunate?) I was taught that lesson as a mere lad (see Cain v. Abel)

chaim, glad you made it home safe and sound, glad your friends were (relatively) OK. Check your six often my friend.

Harry Tuttle
June 27, 2005, 12:12 PM
sounds like theres a job for a shabbes goy with a gun

mountain_cowboy
June 27, 2005, 01:42 PM
I'm a Christian, but I greatly sympathize with those of the Jewish faith and life. With all of the persecution and harassment that Jews have endured over the centuries and today, even at the hands of those who would call themselves Christian, it just puts a big ol' grin on my face to think of an Orthodox Jew packing heat in order to protect himself or his brethren. I believe that the G-d we both share is pained by the worldly condition that necessitates it, but does not disapprove of the protection of one of His chosen people. May you find the answer and reassurance you need to protect G-d's gift of life, and the fortune to never need it.

Khaotic
June 27, 2005, 03:49 PM
Wow, +1 guys.

While having an entirely different set of beliefs, knowing and understanding someone elses helps one properly respect them, so I very much appreciate the insight into this belief and how it relates to this issue.

Very educational.

Also, I grew up in the nastiest sections of south Baltimore - most of the folks who DID carry (illegal or not) are still around, and most of those who didn't, well, you can guess where they are.

Baltimore is hands-down the *worst* place I've ever seen in all my life and travels when it comes to armed self-defense, they have this attitude legally that NOTHING justifies a self-defense shooting, and have repeatedly jailed folk for even the most righteous acts of self-defense.

So keep in mind that self-defense is considered as horrible, if not worse, than any other 'crime' in the city of Baltimore.... be careful, k ?

-K

dhoomonyou
June 27, 2005, 08:35 PM
Check out the website http://www.jpfo.org/
"jews for the preservation of firearms ownership."
A very infamous anti gunner was Hitler.
The preservation of life takes precedence even over the Sabbath.
Thank G-D no one was killed.

glockenstein
June 27, 2005, 09:08 PM
This is one of the better threads that I have read on a gun forum in a long time... positive and constructive without the pettiness and pointless arguments I see sometimes. Let's keep it up!

BrokenPaw
June 28, 2005, 11:08 AM
Chaim,

I don't pretend to understand the laws of your faith, but the following occured to me: you've said that you're not allowed to carry money on the Sabbath. Given that you're also not supposed to break the laws of the land, would it be within the grey area of "permissible for reasons of safety" to carry some money on your person on the Sabbath for the sole purpose of having it as a way to appease a mugger?

It really grates upon me to even suggest it, because I'm personally disinclined to back down and reward a criminal. But it's not illegal in MD to carry cash, so you'd only be dealing with the Talmudic law about not carrying money. Whereas to carry a gun you'd have to be bending Talmudic law and breaking MD law. Or something.

Or you could (as others have posted above) move to a gun-friendly state, and then you at least won't have the laws of man to contend with as you decide what's best to do...

Fortunately for my own peace of mind, my path does not have any explicit restrictions on the carry of weapons for any particular purpose, and since my Circle meets in the Grove on my property, I don't have any legal entanglements to prevent me from protecting myself and my family.

Good luck figuring out your course.

Namaste,
-BP

The Rabbi
June 28, 2005, 11:31 AM
I don't pretend to understand the laws of your faith, but the following occured to me: you've said that you're not allowed to carry money on the Sabbath. Given that you're also not supposed to break the laws of the land, would it be within the grey area of "permissible for reasons of safety" to carry some money on your person on the Sabbath for the sole purpose of having it as a way to appease a mugger?

There is no difference is carrying money or a gun. They would be considered the same in regard to carrying.
There were periods in the '60s and '70s in NYC where rabbis suggested this. I think Meir Kahane (not one of my favorite guys btw) opposed this and suggested instead "every Jew a .22".
It would personally be intolerable to me to carry money in essence to pay for proteksia.

BrokenPaw
June 28, 2005, 11:45 AM
There is no difference is carrying money or a gun. I understood that part. The reason I suggested it as a possibility was because, (as I understand it) for Chaim to carry a gun on the Sabbath, he's breaking the Talmudic law about carrying things that are not regular clothing, plus he's breaking the Maryland handgun laws, and is therefore also breaking the Talmudic law about obeying the laws of the land. But if he were carrying throw-down cash, he'd only be contending with the first part, about carrying something superfluous on the Sabbath.

As I said, I don't understand Talmudic law in any way at all other than what's been explained in this thread by others; some faiths count multiple violations of the rules as "worse", and some count all violations related to one incident as part of the same violation. So I figured I'd throw out the idea for Chaim's consideration.

-BP, who knows less and less every day.

chaim
June 28, 2005, 12:43 PM
Ok, let me clear up a few things.

I was not carrying because MD law doesn't allow it. As for the discussion about carrying things on the sabbath, I live in an area with what is called an eruv so I can carry things that I can use on the sabbath (without an eruv I couldn't carry anything and thus the discussion would be more complicated). Items like a gun, which under normal circumstances one couldn't use on the sabbath, one normally can't carry or even touch on the sabbath. However, where there is a risk to self or others there are exceptions, and it is very likely that the crime rates in most US cities is high enough to count since we tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to danger to life.

The only reason I wasn't carrying is because MD law doesn't allow it. If there was CCW here I might have. The only reason I didn't carry illegally after running into the two victims was because I stay at a friend's house on the sabbath (since I don't live in the Baltimore community) and I don't bring a gun with me when I stay there (most of the time).

As for moving, I very well may in the next year or two, however gun laws will only be one of the criteria. I am going to be going to grad school afterall, I am prepping now and plan to go in about a year. My number one criteria for a masters program will be quality of the program and how well it will prepare me for a Ph.D. program (along with the success rate of graduates in being accepted by Ph.D. programs), followed by cost of the program (and related, availability of assistantships), followed by whether or not there is at least a small Orthodox community (it is a very community oriented religion and it is hard if not impossible to follow it properly without at least one synagogue and some Orthodox Jews to pray and learn with), followed by cost of living (I may not be working while in grad school, and if I am I doubt I'll be working many hours), and only last will be gun laws. The Ph.D. program will be selected on similar criteria (with the first criteria changing to quality of the program and success rate of graduates for getting the type of position I want and how quickly they get hired). If the best school for me is in CA, MD, NYC or NJ (and several top choices are) that is where I'll be. That said, my first choice for my MA, if I can get in, is The College of William and Mary in Williamsburg VA (compared to MD, VA has great gun laws). However, many of my top Ph.D. choices are in NY and CA. Now as for where I'll settle perminantly after grad school is done, my first choices are Pittsburgh, Richmond, Minneapolis, Denver, and Norfolk. I'll strongly consider Phily, Cleveland, Milwaulkee, and Miami. Other than small to medium Orthodox populations the one other thing they all have in common is decent gun laws and CCW (well, Milwaulkee doesn't have CCW, but by the time I have my Ph.D. in 5-6 years it probably will).

As for carrying some money to have something to give the muggers (and thus be a little safer than having nothing to give), I've thought about checking into that. A few years ago when there were a rash of mugging attempts on the Chassidic Jews of Brooklyn the rabbis there told people to sew a $20 bill onto their clothing loosely enough that they wouldn't have to handle it and someone could easily rip it off. I think sewing it in is a bit much, if I was to do it I'd just carry it in a pocket of my suit coat. However, like The Rabbi said, it really wouldn't "feel" right to do it. Even if allowed, it wouldn't really feel like the sabbath if I was carrying around $20. But, like I said, I am considering it.

You described being harassed by some neo-Nazi type a few months ago, and now three of your friends were held up at gun point. Was there anything said during the holdup to indicate some sort of anti-Semitic sentiment?

Well, the two acquaintances who were accosted were probably not targeted due to their religion. The Baltimore Jewish community is in Greenspring (a good neighborhood) and Upper Park Heights (not bad, but changing and very near some of the worst neighborhoods in Baltimore). This happened in Upper Park Heights, only about 5 blocks from the "border" of where the bad neighborhood starts. Property crime year round, and muggings when the weather is good are unfortunately pretty common. I'm pretty sure the only motivation was money (though the Lower Park Heights neighborhood does have a strong Nation of Islam presence, not exactly known for being friendly to Jews, and there is some tension between the two communities).



If so, I think you may have a good chance at getting a MD CCW based on documented ethnic/religious harassment. (Yes, even in the Stepford State of MD

I never did report the Nazi guy to the police, and this robbery attempt (even if it was motivated by anti-semetism, which I doubt) didn't happen to me. Had I taken my usual route I would have been a victim as well, but it happened to two other people. MD specifically lists "self-defense" as not being sufficient reason for a CCW, the only exception being if you have documented death threats. Too unlikely to be worth the $100 some it would cost to just apply.

crofrog
June 28, 2005, 02:11 PM
For those of you who know maryland. I had a friend who was verbally assulted in his car by some neo-nazi / skinhead types for being jewish, on MD RT2 by the Marley Station mall. It's becoming a real issue here. DC has the highest murder rate baltimore isn't far behind. Every person must ask himself do "I want to be tried by 12 or carried by 6"

Here is the relvant maryland penial code:

§ 4-203



(c) (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to the penalties provided in this subsection.

(2) If the person has not previously been convicted under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title:

(i) except as provided in item (ii) of this paragraph, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 30 days and not exceeding 3 years or a fine of not less than $250 and not exceeding $2,500 or both; but

(ii) if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, the person shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not less than 90 days.

(3) (i) If the person has previously been convicted once under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title, the person shall be sentenced:

1. to imprisonment for not less than 1 year and not exceeding 10 years; but

2. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

(4) (i) If the person has previously been convicted more than once under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title, or of any combination of these crimes, the person shall be sentenced:

1. to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years; but

2. A. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years; or

B. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another person, to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.


The full text can be found here at MILS (http://mlis.state.md.us/cgi-win/web_statutes.exe?gcr&4-203)

Chris

Tall Man
June 28, 2005, 04:06 PM
sounds like theres a job for a shabbes goy with a gun
Be careful, Mr. Tuttle. Some of us find such references to be unpalatable. It's no better than suggesting that Christians who keep the Sabbath should solicit Harry the Hebe to run their Sunday errands for them.

TM

The Rabbi
June 28, 2005, 04:38 PM
Tall Man must be a MOT. I have never heard a non-Jew object to the term. I wouldnt use it myself, btw.

Tall Man
June 29, 2005, 08:34 AM
I don't know what the "MOT" reference stands for. I suppose I am in unfamiliar territory since I don't have the peculiar habit of abbreviating every other word or phrase in my posts - save for my user name at the end of each post, which I consider innocuous.

And, consider me the first non-Jew (in your sphere of experience) to object to the term shabbos goy. I know what it means, and I don't like it.

chaim - I have great respect for the discipline you exhibit in keeping the Sabbath. More than once have I looked to Orthodox customs as a model for my own behavior on Sundays.

TM

Old Fuff
June 29, 2005, 09:34 AM
chaim:

I had a thought ...

By prearrangement, could you and others walk together in relatively large rather then small groups to discourage these kinds of attacks? There is strength in numbers.

1911 guy
June 29, 2005, 09:59 AM
I'll give my two cents (worth that or less) for two reasons. First, it's not good to have folks accosted by would be robbers while walking home from a place of worship or anywhere else. Second, I consider Judaism to be the foundation of my faith and have respect for it. Now my second rate opinion. You are walking home from the synagogue (sp?) and have been harrassed once and missed being harrassed another time only by changing your normal route. As the thugs have a higher presence in the area than the law, your chances of needing said handgun are higher than the chances of needing to explain yourself to an officer.

DorGunR
June 29, 2005, 10:34 AM
Chaim I'm glad to hear that you're OK.........this surprises me as I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

I don't have any suggestions other than...........do what you have to do to stay safe.

Tinker
June 29, 2005, 10:37 AM
Chaim,

You said: " I can just imagine what would have happened if they found the pepper spray and knife." And you also made mention of not being able to carry an item that would not be used during Sabbath.

Is a sheath type knife something that could be used on the Sabbath? If so, then I'd suggest a slim "neck knife". These hang from a lanyard like a necklace, under your clothes. Not near the protection of a gun in your pocket, but better than nothing. A person trained in the combat use of knife can be very effective in self preservation.

Also, I liked reading your posts. Very informative. Real interesting was your evolution to your present beliefs. Thanks for sharing and I wish you well.

Andrew Rothman
June 29, 2005, 11:32 AM
FYI, FWIW: "MOT" is "Member Of (the) Tribe" -- an inside joke among Jews.

---

Matt Payne
Heeled Hebe

Harry Tuttle
June 29, 2005, 02:14 PM
I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

Columbia Maryland, a town so nice, they had to import the criminals.

chaim
June 29, 2005, 05:29 PM
Chaim I'm glad to hear that you're OK.........this surprises me as I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

Columbia isn't bad (though as Harry Tuttle says, we did import some criminals- when Baltimore knocked down the projects about a decade ago and gave them vouchers for housing in the burbs, many ended up in Columbia....today there is also a lot, comparatively speaking, of crime against and from the large number of illegal aliens who seem to have settled here). However, on the sabbath I usually stay with friends in the Baltimore community.

You said: " I can just imagine what would have happened if they found the pepper spray and knife." And you also made mention of not being able to carry an item that would not be used during Sabbath.

Is a sheath type knife something that could be used on the Sabbath?

A knife isn't something that could normally be used (with the exception of silverware and kitchen knives used for food) on the sabbath. However, again for self-defense often times exceptions could be made. But again, against three guys at least one who was armed with a gun, I don't think a knife and pepper spray would have done much good and if they searched me (as they did the victims of this crime) I suspect having those items found may have made matters worse.

In fact this situation has me rethinking my regular carry of a defensive pocket knife and pepper spray as long as I'm in MD. In a CCW state where you have a gun on you it is prudent to carry pepper spray and a knife for situations that don't call for a gun. However, in MD and other non-CCW states, having a knife or pepper spray won't do much good if facing a BG with a gun and I never really thought about the possibility of being searched by the BG in the past. At minimum I would expect their finding a weapon would make them a bit more agitated and likely to at least use the found weapon on you, and possibly shooting you. So, I'm rethinking whether it is smart to carry anything in a state where I can't carry armament equivelent to what the BGs will have.

Norton
June 29, 2005, 06:31 PM
Chaim,

Glad to hear that you escaped any confrontation. It's a darned shame that Baltimore is continuing to get worse and worse with regards to crime. It's scary that it's become so brazen. Glad I made my escape to the south......

Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target?

Hawken50
June 29, 2005, 08:52 PM
care bear-

I have gone round and round with some of my friends from church over the Christian morality of carrying weapons, in and out of church

sorry if this makes me sound ignorant, i'm not religious by any stretch, but doesn't it say somewhere in the bible, "let he who does not have a sword sell his clothes and buy one." or something along those lines? maybe it's not the bible but something else?

DorGunR
June 29, 2005, 09:58 PM
Not trying to hi-jack this thread but............
Norton posted:
Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target?

Is this the On Target near Fort Meade?? If so I'll be there as I have a new pistol I've never shot.

chaim
June 29, 2005, 10:40 PM
Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target? Probably, though I can't say for sure. My last day at my job was last Friday, and the job I thought I had lined up ended up not coming through (they told me they thought they had the budget for 2 positions but only got the budget for one and there was supposedly one person more qualified than I). Anyway, it depends upon my schedule (whether I have a new position lined up, if I have an interview that gets in the way, or if I'm out of state since I'm also looking for work in Pittsburgh, Phily, and the NYC area).

Burt Blade
June 29, 2005, 10:55 PM
Are shoes clothing or tool? Both shoes and handguns are for protection from the hazards of the road. A hard shoe is also a weapon when the desperate man kicks.

If life is to be preserved, how would you reasonably aid another from an attacker on the Sabbath if you left the sidearm at home? If thugs were Sabbath keepers, this would make more sense to me.

I suppose there is some religious explanation for all that, but to me it seems that life on Thursday afternoon is just as valuable as on any other day. I would feel derelict in what I believe is my own duty were I to deliberately handicap my ability to help someone on one day each week.

The nice thing about the USA is that we are free to disagree on such topics, and, more importantly, differ in our implementation of our differing viewpoints.

carebear
June 29, 2005, 11:33 PM
Hawken,

As my pastor told me, we have to be careful going into Scripture looking for justification for something we want to do anyway.

The disagreement isn't about the morality of self-defense per se, Scripture, both Judaic and Christian is pretty clear it's a-ok.

The question revolves around whether one who goes armed all the time is being sensibly proactive, a good steward of his and others safety (my position) OR if by arming myself regularly I am somehow denying the L--d's ability to protect me if that is His will. Which could be a symptom of a lack of surrendered heart and faith.

I think that is a specious position, and shows a lack of using the good sense G-d gave a goose. If it's my time, all the training and hardware won't avail me anyway. If it isn't, then whether I am armed or not is again irrelevent and being armed is just good planning.

However, I view it as my responsibility to do my part. As the punchline says, "Honey, do me a favor. Buy a TICKET."

Norton
June 30, 2005, 06:44 AM
DorGunR,

On Target is the range on Rt 175 near Ft. Meade, as you said.

Chaim,
If you decide on Pittsburgh, let me know. Wife did one of her degrees at Duquesne and I know the city pretty well.

280PLUS
June 30, 2005, 07:07 AM
Just a side thought to this very interesting thread. My knowledge of the Jewish faith is very limited. I couldn't even tell you which holiday is which or what they represent. Well, except for Channuka. All I know is you guys got those days off from school AND the Christian holidays as well :cuss: It just didn't seem fair...

:D

Anyhow, it seems to me that if you live or operate in a rough neighborhood and all the criminals know that the Jews walking to Sabbath on Saturday are most likely completely unarmed, you are placed at a distinct disadvantage.

Of course, if you look at it another way, they should also know you have no money either. :rolleyes:

Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple?

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 09:27 AM
Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple?

It was only dumb before you asked it. Now that you've asked it it is a good question.
Either you leave a key hidden by the door somewhere. Or people have developed a special belt where the key is an integral part of the belt, and doubles as a key too.

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:09 AM
It is reasonable for me to fear that if I speak too much on this subject, I will either insult or alienate religious people here on this forum, and as I don't wish to do this, so I must keep this terse.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand or agree with the limitations that religious people of certain persuasions impose upon themselves -- particularly under the notion that God requires such behavior of them.

This is why I live a completely areligious life. Some say that atheists like me cannot have any morality, cannot be "good people," etc., to which I say, "Nuts!" I am just as good and moral as the next person, even though I don't have a God, because anyone can be taught what is good and kind. I was taught what is good and kind. I respect and understand the inherent benefits of being good to my fellow man, and living within reasonable social constructs of good/evil, right/wrong. What's more, I think that my own morality is a bit better developed than that of the average religious person's, because it is based on the recognition that in order to have a peaceful life here on earth, we have to abide by certain rules and agreements; the religious person does it because he's expecting a reward later on from God -- and who knows what he would do, or consider himself free to do, on earth if it were not for fear of punishment.

But it appears that the rules of Judaism that Chaim lays out for us here, as they are interpreted and applied by him to his own life, cause great potential for difficulty, and even danger. I just don't see the point in living by rules that say you have to be essentially sedentary on the "sabbath." Why would God require of people to essentially shut down their lives for a day, once a week? I swear, it seems every Orthodox Jew I have ever known twisted the rules of Judaism in whatever way they saw fit, and somehow managed to convince him/herself that they were doing it God's way, and they had it all right. One guy I knew in college would put his t.v. on before sundown on Friday, so that it would be on like he wanted all through the sabbath day. Sure, according to the rules, he couldn't "use" the t.v. -- couldn't turn it on or off, or change channels -- but he was doing a clever little circumventing of God's rules in order to pacify his desire for human comfort and entertainment.

Trying to play-off a technicality on God... Unwise, I would imagine... :uhoh:

-Jeffrey

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 10:16 AM
I cannot, for the life of me, understand or agree with the limitations that religious people of certain persuasions impose upon themselves -- particularly under the notion that God requires such behavior of them.

You are right. You cannot understand it and probably never will. Thus you really can't add anything to this discussion, which assumes the underlying legitimacy of one's religious practices and beliefs.

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:19 AM
FYI, FWIW: "MOT" is "Member Of (the) Tribe" -- an inside joke among Jews.

---

Matt Payne
Heeled Hebe

In that case, it should just be, "MT". Articles do not get capitalized and represented in acronyms, so why would the "of" be included any more than the "t" of "the"?


As an aside, Matt (and others): to some of us, the reflexive use of the word "Hebe," which if it came from a non-Jew would be considered derogatory--an epithet, is similar in annoyance to the way blacks refer to themselves with the term "n***er" but claim that it is derogatory and offensive when anyone else uses it.

I mean, would it be acceptable if the Jews on this forum jokingly referred to themselves as "kikes"? :scrutiny: I imagine if a "goy" like me used the same term, he'd run into trouble for it.

-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:27 AM
A knife isn't something that could normally be used (with the exception of silverware and kitchen knives used for food) on the sabbath. However, again for self-defense often times exceptions could be made. But again, against three guys at least one who was armed with a gun, I don't think a knife and pepper spray would have done much good and if they searched me (as they did the victims of this crime) I suspect having those items found may have made matters worse.

In fact this situation has me rethinking my regular carry of a defensive pocket knife and pepper spray as long as I'm in MD. In a CCW state where you have a gun on you it is prudent to carry pepper spray and a knife for situations that don't call for a gun. However, in MD and other non-CCW states, having a knife or pepper spray won't do much good if facing a BG with a gun and I never really thought about the possibility of being searched by the BG in the past. At minimum I would expect their finding a weapon would make them a bit more agitated and likely to at least use the found weapon on you, and possibly shooting you. So, I'm rethinking whether it is smart to carry anything in a state where I can't carry armament equivelent to what the BGs will have.

My impression, from this, is that you are thinking more and more like a victim.
"If I can't carry a gun, I shouldn't carry anything that could be used as a lesser defensive implement."

Well, what about the fact that pepper spray could be effective if you were accosted by a couple of 16-year-old non-armed thugs? Why are you locking on to the idea that the only thing you might have to defend against would be some dude with a gun?

The resignation in your post is kind of troubling. That's why I say you are thinking like a victim. There is an element of appeasement in your post that I find disturbing. Like you're afraid of angering or bothering the guy who's robbing you. Like you're prepared to just accede to being searched for weapons by some lowlife degenerate thug, and you feel you had better not do anything to annoy him or he might just hurt you. Well, DO SOMETHING to keep him from hurting you. This hoping-he-decides-of-his-own-accord-to-leave-you-robbed-but-unharmed thing is for the dogs... :rolleyes:

-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:30 AM
It was only dumb before you asked it. Now that you've asked it it is a good question.
Either you leave a key hidden by the door somewhere. Or people have developed a special belt where the key is an integral part of the belt, and doubles as a key too.

Once again, like my example of the friend of mine who would leave his t.v. "conveniently" on through the sabbath, this seems to me like an obvious attempt at catching God on a technicality -- something I'm confident he would not appreciate.

If the key is carried, or worn on a belt, or left under the mat, what is the difference?? :rolleyes: It's still gonna be used to open the door, right? Where is the line drawn, anyway? And more importantly, WHY?

-Jeffrey

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 10:37 AM
If the key is carried, or worn on a belt, or left under the mat, what is the difference?? It's still gonna be used to open the door, right? Where is the line drawn, anyway? And more importantly, WHY?

PeacefulJeffrey,
You have already voiced your views that you think the entire enterprise is stupid and pointless and subject to hypocrisy. You are entitled to that belief. But once you voice it you should expect that people will take your questions merely as hostilities and not as requests for information. And I do take your question as hostile and demeaning.

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:39 AM
The question revolves around whether one who goes armed all the time is being sensibly proactive, a good steward of his and others safety (my position) OR if by arming myself regularly I am somehow denying the L--d's ability to protect me if that is His will. Which could be a symptom of a lack of surrendered heart and faith.

I think that is a specious position, and shows a lack of using the good sense G-d gave a goose. If it's my time, all the training and hardware won't avail me anyway. If it isn't, then whether I am armed or not is again irrelevent and being armed is just good planning.

Wait a minute. I can't figure out what you are getting at,and with your final "all the training and hardware" comment seems to indicate that preparation is futile because of predestiny. It seems to me that you are saying that arming yourself won't help you "if it's your time."

But that "if it's your time" argument can be used ad nauseum to cover just about anything. Why arm yourself ever, at any time, in any place, since obviously if the Lord has it in for you, "all the training and hardware won't avail [you] anyway"? :rolleyes:

I don't think that the Lord micromanages people's lives to the point of blocking bullets or sending robbers along a different street so that we don't cross paths with them. Self protection is up to us -- or are you telling us that you don't wear eye and ear protection at the range, don't wear a helmet on a motorcycle, don't wear a flotation vest while waterskiing...?

How could self-preservation tactics be an affront to God?! :banghead:


-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 10:43 AM
No, Rabbi, it's not meant to be hostile, although it may be taken as intended to be thought-provoking.

Some who are religious endeavor to turn the non-religious around. It is just as fair for those who are non-religious to believe that there is noble purpose in attempting to get others to see the paradox, illogic, and futility that is epitomized in religion.

Suffice it to say that I really am interested in hearing from people who can explain the things I asked questions about. Why is that so hard? Do you find logical challenges to your faith troublesome or disconcerting? If so, why? And if not, then what's the problem?


edit: Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't call anyone or their faith stupid, now did I? And I find it unpleasant that rather than answer my good-faith questions, you ignored them and instead engaged in an ad hominem attack on my motivation and intent. You chose to attempt to divine, interpret, and attack them, and you presume too much, without justification.

Do you realize that your signature could be taken as an insult by Jesus-followers, as it lampoons and trivializes the familiar "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets and stickers? I certainly hope that you are not of the ilk that wants protection for his own religion but doesn't mind allowing others to suffer indignities based on their faith. That would be hypocritical.

-Jeffrey

Byron Quick
June 30, 2005, 11:12 AM
peacefuljeffrey and The Rabbi...please take this side discussion to PM or email. It's hijacking Chaim's thread for one. It's verging on being hijacked into a divisive topic instead of a unifying one.

And to take my own I advice, I will now PM my take on the matter to peacefuljeffrey.

slzy
June 30, 2005, 11:16 AM
what would Joshua do?

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 11:43 AM
Thanks, Byron Quick.

Chaim, it's going to come down to: is there any way to avoid the situation to begin with that would minimize change to what you're doing now?
Is there a way to increase your odds of not getting targeted, e.g. moving in larger groups, as someone suggested.
Is there a way to increase your security without carrying at all? With carrying things in a way that might be permissable (you mentioned the eiruv so I mean something that isnt necessariy muktza)?
I would say taking the gun as a next-to-last resort. The last resort is using it.

entropy
June 30, 2005, 11:44 AM
I have a legitimate and non-hostile question. What do Orthodox Jews in the Army do on the Sabbath? (US or Israeli Army) I realize many of of soldiers in the Isreali Army are not Orthodox, but surely some are, as well as some in the US Army. In a foxhole, I'd imagine, they would be able to carry their weapons, but how about in garrison? On an RDF force, (Mike Force)? If the answer is they would be able to carry because of the potential for combat, how does this differ from walking on a street in Baltimore where there have been many attacks? Or the streets of Jerusalem?
Or the streets of Laredo? ;) (Sorry, the pun was just sitting there) But seriously, the reference to 'Meet me halfway; buy a ticket' reminds me of another: 'What do you mean I didn't try to save you?; I sent a fire truck, a boat, and a helicopter!'

Does 'Never Again!' mean to the Orthodox the 'Tribe' as a whole, but not being able to defend yourself as an individual one day a week is what's demanded?
Oh, BTW, Minneapolis' suburbs would be an excellent choice for a place to live. Active Jewish community, CCW, Excellent grad school (U of M [Go Gophers!]) and 10,000 lakes! :)

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 11:49 AM
Entropy,
there is an idea called "pikuach nefesh" that when there is a danger to life you put aside Sabbath restrictions and do what you need to do. The Israeli army relies on this, legitimately so, but at the same time probably tries to minimize areas where it would be necessary. Obviously a situation like the 1973 war will demand an all-out effort. But other situations might get handled differently.
There are certainly religious soldiers in the US army as well and they rely on the same thing. I would guess in some cases their commanders are sensitive to the issue and try not to assign them detail that would conflict.

entropy
June 30, 2005, 12:12 PM
I see. I am curious as to the degree of potential danger. Obviously a busy Jerusalem intersection might be dangerous anytime, but woudn't a street in Baltimore that is known for muggings be no less dangerous? My wife and I go around about this all the time. I maintain that since you never know when you'll need it, it makes sense to carry 24/7. She maintains that you should only need it going into questionable neighborhoods. I maintain it is better then to avoid said neighborhoods, but certainly to carry there. If knew I was going into an area known for muggings and could not avoid it, I believe that would satisfy the 'pikauch nefesh' requirements, wouldn't it? I am not Jewish, nor do I play one on TV. But I am curious about chiam's predicament; Chiam means life, and I would think he wouldn't want to lose it to some punk who was angry that he didn't have any dead prezs on him.

The Rabbi
June 30, 2005, 12:25 PM
You make a good point. Where do you draw the line between legitimate fear and mere paranoia? I dont think there is a cut and dried answer. As I said in a earlier post, I have never been accosted or robbed on Saturday in my neighborhood, which is a pretty safe place. that doesnt mean it couldnt happen. If I noticed gangs or undesirables hanging around, or read news reports about people being robbed on my normal route I would re-think my situation.
In Chaim's case he is working with several factors, including the illegality of carry in his area. There are different claims being made for his action and they all need to be weighed carefully. Fortunately he doesnt have to do this all by himself. This is what rabbis do, weigh and decide issues like this. His challenge will be to find a rabbi who is gun-friendly and/or sensitive to his needs and the topic and ask him. (The shorthand for that btw is CYLOR--consult your local orthodox rabbi).

peacefuljeffrey
June 30, 2005, 12:40 PM
<mod note>
If you want to have a religious debate about how one chooses to worship God, go somewhere else. The framework of this discussion is within Chaim's chosen faith. Trying to badger Chaim, or anyone else, into questioning their faith is both outside the scope of this thread and the rules of this forum, and ultimately not going to bear any fruitful answers.

-Justin

chaim
June 30, 2005, 03:01 PM
As my pastor told me, we have to be careful going into Scripture looking for justification for something we want to do anyway. Your pastor is a wise man. If you want to know if something is allowed or not, you have to have an open mind and not look for something that looks like it might work and grab onto it.

If you decide on Pittsburgh, let me know. Wife did one of her degrees at DuquesneWill do, Duquesne is one of the schools I am considering at the Ph.D. level (the masters is a bit less likely that I'd do it there). As for the city, I know where I'd live if I move there (the Orthodox community is in Squirrel Hill) and I do know the city fairly well. My dad is from the Pittsburgh area (anyone here know Greene County?, Waynesburg?) and growing up we'd visit Pittsburgh periodically (sometimes generally to go to the city, other times just for a Pirates game).

Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple? In an area without an eruv there are a couple options. In addition to what The Rabbi said, I know people who have bought Realtor style lock boxes (combination lock boxes that fit on your door knob and securely hold your house keys). Some people leave a door unlocked (a bad idea). It is preferable, not a requirement (at least in many situations), to pray in a group so one spouse may stay home and pray alone in order to be able to let the other in (or with older children a kid may stay home to let the parents in). Most people though who live without an eruv use the solutions The Rabbi pointed out and either hide the key or get special belts (or tie clips) where their key is an intergral part of it.

Chaim, it's going to come down to: is there any way to avoid the situation to begin with that would minimize change to what you're doing now... The Rabbi, I am leaning towards one of two solutions (week long, not only on shabbos). Either quit carrying anything since the knife and pepper spray would be useful against BGs without guns, but if facing BGs with guns who decide to search me (again, searching being something I had never considered before this) it could easily make my situation worse (pepper spray and knives are certainly no match for a gun). The other option I'm considering just as strongly (since I don't like the idea of surrender) is to carry illegally. Needless to say, I will probably not announce publicly, on this board or elsewhere, which of the two I decide (I might PM you if you want me to though since that would be relatively private).

I have a legitimate and non-hostile question. Entropy, I don't think you needed that introduction to your question. Your post clearly was non-hostile. Sometimes you can tell, even written, when someone is being hostile, and you were not.

As for the questions, The Rabbi did a pretty good job explaining it. When life is at stake there are quite a few exceptions that are allowed.

Certainly in the wartime military many normal sabbath restrictions are eased. Even in peacetime training, life in the military is different than out of the military. You do your best. For routine non-essential tasks you hope you have an understanding CO who won't require that you break the tenents of your religion. When your CO won't be accomodating you simply do your best (your actions while in the military aren't completely yours to choose).

For self-defense considerations, it varies. Some cities' crime rates are bad enough to break sabbath restrictions to carry self-defense impliments, some aren't. As The Rabbi states, in these situations you check with an expert (a rabbi who is knowlegable in both the Jewish Law pertaining to this area, guns, and crime rates).

280PLUS
June 30, 2005, 03:36 PM
Thanks for the answers! Having worked for the Quakers on a project once, I find the parallels of usage of mechanical things on the repective Sabbaths quite interesting. I find it equally interesting that devout Muslims also lead what amounts to a Kosher lifestyle.


I may have missed the point of Chaim's original post. It was not his religious convictions that prevented hiscarrying but in fact the State of Maryland's restrictions. Correct?

chaim
June 30, 2005, 03:48 PM
It was not his religious convictions that prevented hiscarrying but in fact the State of Maryland's restrictions. Correct?

That is correct. And the reason I didn't have a gun with me to carry after the incident was because I was staying with a friend and hadn't brought a gun with me (not forseeing something would happen in close enough proximity to me to cause me to consider illegally carrying).

Byron Quick
July 1, 2005, 12:30 PM
chaim,

I'm not in your circumstances as I reside in a CCW state and am non-Jewish. However, I would like for you to consider something: it's difficult to predict when you will need to be armed. Things happen without warning. With me, I can guarantee what the outcome would be of picking times to have a weapon availabe...I'd be unarmed when I needed to be armed.

John Ross stated in "Unintended Consequences" that if you go armed 24/7 without a carry permit that you will be arrested for such eventually. I can attest to the truth of that statement. I've been arrested once in my life...guess what the charges were :rolleyes:

Therefore, I no longer visit places where I can't carry legally.

BeLikeTrey
July 1, 2005, 01:54 PM
There have already been two encounters, schedule/prepay for a taxi or have police escort you or patrol area more frequently. specifically if they know your route/ schedule they could drive up and down it until all are home safely. I would consider that a more than reasonable accomodation if they are going to have citizens unable to be responsible for their own safety... then safety must be provided. I honestly prefer to use the police since they are the excuse used for why you don't need a weapon... (despite yet another USSC decision to the contrary)

peacefuljeffrey
July 1, 2005, 09:02 PM
Byron, you were arrested for carrying a firearm without the proper or adequate CCW qualification?! Would you please tell us how that turned out, whether there was a trial, conviction, dismissal, bribe, etc.? And how it is that you had the situation work out to where you were not prohibited from again getting a CCW license.

Post or PM. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

-Jeffrey

Byron Quick
July 1, 2005, 09:58 PM
peacefuljeffrey,

Sure. I was in downtown Augusta planning to stop by the Augusta Sporting Goods Store for something...seven years ago, I forget. Parallel parking with one open space. Right next to the stote's loading zone which had a car parked illegally in two particulars: a)parked in a loading zone and b) parked against the flow of traffic. While I was trying to back my longbed pickup into the slot, I felt a bump and the truck gently rocked. There was no sound of a collision. I looked behind me and there was a larger plastic garbage container right at my back bumper. Wrong. The front edge of my right wheel well had caught the front right quarter panel of the illegally parked undercover narcotics agent car. Unbeknownst to me. He was watching this from inside Augusta Sporting Goods. I looked over at his car and said to self,"I don't think I have enough room to get into this space, thanks to doofus there." So, I drove off to circle the block to find another parking space. Undercover narcotic agent is hurrying to his vehicle meanwhile, in order to pursue the fleeing miscreant, yours truly. I get about halfway around the block when I see the unmarked car with the lights in the grill behind me. I don't make the connection between him and illegally parked car. I pull over. He gets out and immediately handcuffs me. Finds a Seecamp .25 in my right front pocket and a Buck folder in my left front pocket. He asks me if I have a carry permit and I tell him that I've applied for it but have not received it yet. He throws my knife into the bed of my pickup. It looks like it might rain soon. Thanks, officer.

Other officers are arriving by now. The arresting officer is searching my vehicle and pulling out guns and ammunition. I've just purchased a handgun. He gets it. I've got a FN HP under the seat. A couple of cases of 7.62X39. One of the other officers keeps telling the arresting officer that all my handguns are in holsters. Over and over. I have no clue why. Months later I come across a magazine article in some gun rag that states that LEO's rarely find BG's with holsters. Maybe the holster guy was trying to tell the officer arresting me that I was a good guy...let me go. I don't know. During this time, I had foolishly leaned back against a tree. The cuffs weren't double locked so they tightened right down on my wrists. I could no longer feel my right hand and no one would loosen the damns cuffs I wasn't cuff knowledgeable at the time.

I was taken to the Law Enforcement Center and booked. And they finally took off the handcuffs. It was twenty four hours before feeling returned to my right hand. I was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, carry a pistol without a license, improper backing, and failure of duty upon striking (leaving the scene of an accident). Bond was set at $6000(!). I called a bail bondsman, gave him a check, picked up my belt, wallet, keys, and the receipt for my seized weapons. Got a buddy to pick me up and went around to the wrecker service that had my pickup. When I got it back; I searched the bed for my Buck knife. It wasn't there. I checked my receipt and it wasn't listed. I shrugged; figuring that one of the cops needed it more than I did.

I'm a registered nurse. I didn't know how the State Board of Nursing would feel about a misdemeanor conviction on a weapons charge...so I lawyered up. Big time. I hired the best criminal attorey in eastern central Georgia. Three thousand bucks. The ironic thing about this whole situation is that my CCW was sitting signed and approved on the probate judge's desk. He just hadn't mailed it yet

I went to court on December 2. Charges were made in August. Watching the judge; I got a bad feeling. He was putting people on a year's probation for running a stop sign. First offense. Everyone. I pled guilty to improper backing and failure of duty upon striking. The weapons charges were dropped. I was put on two years probation and fined for the traffic charges. I left court in Richmond County and drove to the Burke County Courthouse with my papers. Showed them to the Probate Court Judge and he gave me my CCW which he had been holding while the charges were pending. It cost me about four thousand dollars between bail bondsman, attorney, fines, and probation.

When I picked up my seized weapons, lo and behold!...there was my Buck folder. Turns out that the arresting officer; when he found out that my CCW was approved and waiting on the judge's desk; had retrieved the knife and turned it into evidence. That was the concealed weapon charge. The lack of CCW is carrying a pistol without a license here in Georgia.

Bainx
July 1, 2005, 10:55 PM
"jews for the preservation of firearms ownership."

I wonder why a jew would be so antimate about having a gun?

Byron Quick
July 2, 2005, 12:19 AM
Clarification. My carrying without permission charge was dropped. However, unless I don't clearly understand the laws involved-conviction of carrying a pistol without a license would not bar you from applying and receiving a license in the future in Georgia. You have to be clear of any supervision of any misdemeanor conviction and a second offense is a felony. Which is another reason that I brought out the big guns for a misdemeanor.

peacefuljeffrey
July 2, 2005, 12:58 AM
I wonder why a jew would be so antimate about having a gun?

So... what about having a gun?

-Jeffrey

280PLUS
July 2, 2005, 07:31 AM
I wonder why a jew would be so antimate about having a gun?

For reasons of clarification only, Do you mean adamant?

If you enjoyed reading about "Very close call" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!