Faxing FFL Paperwork???


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firesafety3
June 27, 2005, 12:18 PM
Guys, maybe I'm way behind on this one but it's news to me.

I'm currently buying a gun out of state and I contacted my FFL for the normal "please mail your paperwork". He told me they had just attended a seminar/convention and were told that it is now ok to fax paperwork between FFLs.

I'm still under the impression the the "signed in ink" requirement was still in place. Anyone else hear about the change?

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Preacherman
June 27, 2005, 12:21 PM
I'll go with a faxed FFL when the dealer accepts my faxed check... Unless and until the ATF puts the new policy on their Web site, don't trust your dealer!

logical
June 27, 2005, 12:30 PM
I agree a dealer should wait for the actual ATF site OK on this, but it makes sense to change the rule.

1) EZ-check lets you verify online if a deales license is valid in the ATF database.

2) Any 7th grader with a scanner and PC could make up a fake FFL and buy a blue bic pen.

If i recall the conclusion last time this oddly emotional topic came up it was also pointed out that the "signed copy" only applies to FFLs sending guns. Do any of you get a FFL from Ruger before you send your gun in for work? No, because you know they are a valid FFL. I say send me your FFL # by fax, Email or whatever...I'll check the ATF site and know you are a valid dealer. I don't need some copy of a copy of a copy of a license that might have been revoked last month. And having it signed in non-black ink gives way too many a false sense of security. Maybe when color copiers were only a pipe dream...I can only immagine how many guns get shipped to fake FFLs.

spacemanspiff
June 27, 2005, 12:46 PM
for that matter any 7th grader with a color scanner, color laser printer, and pc can make multiple copies of ffl's. that is, until the ffl expires.

Tejas Gunwerks
June 27, 2005, 12:57 PM
Current BATF regulation permit a faxed copy of your FFL. You must have the intent of sending an original signature copy when you fax it. I got this straight from a seminar I attended last week.

JLGILBERT
June 27, 2005, 01:00 PM
Hey Folks,

I am new to the forum, but have been a licensed dealer for a couple of decades, and after viewing the forum I decided to call my local ATF agent. She said faxing is now OK, but she strongly suggested some type of follow up verification like the FFL EZ Check System. She said the memo was circulated internally ( I guess that means throughout the ATF ) and should be posted on the web-site within a days.

The change was way overdue, so hopefully this will benefit all of us. Just thought this was help

spacemanspiff
June 27, 2005, 01:02 PM
okay, lets see if the ATF will take that a step further. if a fax is okay, why not a scanned image of the signed ffl emailed?
an electronic transmission is an electronic transmission is an electronic transmission, right?

JLGILBERT
June 27, 2005, 01:10 PM
I did ask about scanning and e-mailing an FFL, which would make sense, but I did not receive a response one way or the other. I would assume that since something is coming over fax or thru your printer they shouldn't have a big issue ~ particularly if you run a double check thru the FFL EZ Check System.
I put a call into another agent just to see if he would have the same reponse. I'll let you know

Spreadfire Arms
June 27, 2005, 01:22 PM
i was at an ATF meeting last Tuesday in Round Rock, Texas the same one Tejas Gunwerks and Waterhouse attended:

straight out of the ATF's mouth:

Dealer A can accept Dealer B's faxed FFL if:

1. Dealer B signs the FFL and faxes it to Dealer A.
2. Dealer A intended the ink-signed FFL to be for Dealer B.

FFL # and expiration date must be legible.

spacemanspiff, in response to your question, ATF specifically stated "Fax," so I wouldn't go exploring and using email to send a .jpeg of a scanned FFL. besides they said the "ink signed FFL was intended" for Dealer B. that may preclude an FFL from just being sent over as a .jpg image since the signature wasn't really "fresh" before you faxed it over. i think they were fairly specific with a faxed copy and not any other form of transmission.

relatively new ruling that ATF had stated was in effect since the SHOT Show.

Standing Wolf
June 27, 2005, 04:10 PM
Oh, yeah? Where's it say all that in the Second Amendment?

spacemanspiff
June 27, 2005, 05:05 PM
thanks for the info spreadfire.
i can understand the atf not wanting dealers to keep older copies of their scanned ffl and keep emailing them, but really, is it a whole lot different than the dirty photocopies dealers have? its obvious that most ffl's make copies of copies of copies, and thats not good.

i do think it would be feasible for the atf to write up a small program that would scrutinize and accept jpg images of scanned signed ffl's, so long as the creator of the scanned image filled in some image encoding attributes.

with a scanned image its darn near guaranteed you'll be able to read all the info. can't really guarantee that much with dirty copies that are currently being sent around.

Spreadfire Arms
June 27, 2005, 07:49 PM
all i know is that they said specifically faxes were okay. they did not say anything else was approved, so i'm not going to be the one to make case law. :D

deker
June 27, 2005, 07:58 PM
I'm just glad to hear this. If I can arrange to buy a HOUSE with faxed signatures (done it!), then my FFL sure should be able to fax his paperwork.

Too bad it'll likely be a year or more before a lot of FFLs believe the new rule and agree to send stuff out based on a fax...

-d

logical
June 29, 2005, 06:44 PM
All that a fax is..is me scanning an image and sending it to your printer....if they do say FAX yes and Emailed image no...they are goofy.

waterhouse
June 29, 2005, 11:38 PM
Too bad it'll likely be a year or more before a lot of FFLs believe the new rule and agree to send stuff out based on a fax...

Ain't that the truth. I was at the ATF seminar, and when the ATF inspector said it was ok to now use fax most of the FFLs in the room (myself included) didn't seem to know about it. Then some other ATF people in the back said "Oh, we sent a letter out a couple months ago."

I've gotten some mail and email from the ATF concerning some things (NICS being down, etc.) and certainly never got the letter concerning the Fax.

So far I've spoken to about 3 other FFLs in other states in the past week when doing a transfer for the customer, and I've asked each for their fax number so I can just fax them a copy. I was told by all 3 that the ATF requires an original copy that must be mailed. I encouraged all of them to call the ATF and check . . .I'm not sure if they did or not, but they still all wanted me to mail them a copy.

Not that I blame them. There are so many regulations and misinformation in this business about what is and isn't legal that I'd be hesitant to accept a fax if I hadn't heard it straight from the horses mouth with about 100 witnesses.

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