Grizzly kills couple at Alaska campsite


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cookekdjr
June 27, 2005, 10:22 AM
I don't know what "unused firearm" they had with them, or how close it was to them, so having a big handgun next to them may not have made a difference. But this story should remind us that the first rule of firearm protection is...to have a gun ready.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8371132/

-David

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sturmruger
June 27, 2005, 10:44 AM
What a sad story. They were just sitting in their tent when Mr. Grizzly jumped on their tent. You would have thought they heard him coming into camp.

CentralTexas
June 27, 2005, 11:30 AM
If I realized two people were sitting in my backyard at night.
CT

Pilgrim
June 27, 2005, 11:37 AM
You would have thought they heard him coming into camp.

A good alert dog is invaluable in situations like this.

Pilgrim

spacemanspiff
June 27, 2005, 11:50 AM
You would have thought they heard him coming into camp.
when a bear doesnt want to be heard, no one will hear it.

black bear
June 27, 2005, 12:41 PM
I wonder what the firearm was and how much time, if any they have to repel the attack, it is my theory that there should have been some time while the bear is killing one person for the other to shoot at the bear.

The case of Timothy Treadwell (author of Among Grizzlies) and Amie Huguenard that were killed and eaten by a Grizzly in October 2003 in Alaska’s Kaflia Bay demonstrated that there was plenty of time for a gun to have been used (no gun was available) thanks to a video camera left on that recorded the panic struggle of both people (on sound only) and the subsequent feeding noises that the bear was making.

Bears, being nocturnal, mostly attack when people are sleeping and secured in their bags. I always advocate the use of an early prevention system, and a kit capable to repel an attacking bear.

In the picture you can see my kit, consisting of a screaming siren that is attached with Para-cord to the perimeter of the campsite. Also the newer addition of the Driveway Patrol Infrared Sensor, available thru Heartland catalogue and in the $30.00 range.

The Colt Anaconda in .44 Magnum will be okay to repel an attacking black bear. If I were camping in Alaska I will want to upgrade to a .45 Casull or one of the Bowen Custom revolvers.
Also I think that having a Marlin 450 or 45-70 with custom loads will not be too much out of line when camping and hiking in Grizzly territory.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/bearkit.jpg

The flashlight is not the regular Maglite 3 “D” that output 39 lumens but a special modification I do that outputs 951 lumens, making it the most powerful flashlight in the world. (I am selling my modifications to members of this Forum) and I am also running a contest giving one for free in the Contest and Group Buys Forum.

I have camped in the wild for many years and I have had a few encounters with black bears. They can be very unpredictable and you never will know when they will decide to make trouble for you.

Better be prepared.

Best regards,
Black bear

KAR120C
June 27, 2005, 01:19 PM
So Treadwell is dead, eaten by a bear. Ironic. I just finished reading his book this past weeken, notice it was written in 1996, and wondered if he had kept up his "living with the bears" ways, and if so whether he was still alive.

Crosshair
June 27, 2005, 01:40 PM
Some cotton string and empty cans with rocks in them make a good early warning system. Did they keep their food in the tent? Don't bears usualy go for that first?

Standing Wolf
June 27, 2005, 04:09 PM
You would have thought they heard him coming into camp.

Eh? What? Speak up, would you? Stop mumbling, for heaven's sake!

Seriously: I might well not have heard a bear, especially if it happened to be in a quiet mood.

Malone LaVeigh
June 27, 2005, 04:39 PM
Absence of standard gratuitous "Bliss ninnies should have had more firepower" drivel gratefully noted.

Blackbear:

That's a ridiculous amount of overkill for camping in black bear country. I'd have thought you were camping among dinosaurs or something. Why don't you just pack along a gunsafe and sleep in it? :rolleyes:

El Tejon
June 27, 2005, 04:51 PM
Malone, blissninnies should not have ANY firepower.

Blissninnies, it's what's for dinner. :D

spacemanspiff
June 27, 2005, 04:57 PM
Absence of standard gratuitous "Bliss ninnies should have had more firepower" drivel gratefully noted.
amount of firepower only applies when the persons have the time to utilize it.

out of a dead sleep, who among us could honestly say they could 1. find the weapon; 2. zero in on the threat; 3. get adequate hits on the threat to stop it?

and furthermore, i dont recall ever hearing any campers/hunters/fishers standing watch throughout the night.

i would hope that this tragedy does help others strive to be more diligent. but what else could they have done? they followed all the suggestions for camping in bear territory.

black bear
June 27, 2005, 05:17 PM
That's a ridiculous amount of overkill for camping in black bear country. I'd have thought you were camping among dinosaurs or something. Why don't you just pack along a gunsafe and sleep in it?

My kit is composed of the early warning system (to wake me up) and the MAG 951 flashlight and the .44 Magnum revolver (to deal with the thread)
If a .44 Magnum is too much for you what you use for defence in bear country, a Beretta .22???
Or you plan to wrestle them down?
Gun safe don't fit my holster and I back pack into bear country.

I also use these!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/Glacierbearand742.jpg

cheers
black bear

Wayne D
June 27, 2005, 08:24 PM
out of a dead sleep, who among us could honestly say they could 1. find the weapon; 2. zero in on the threat; 3. get adequate hits on the threat to stop it?

Add to that the fact that you're still in your sleeping bag and the tent has collapsed on you too. From what I've read of bear attacks, bears like to swat with their paws which would further entangle you in the bag and tent. It's dark, you're rolled up in a tent and sleeping bag, you're in severe pain, you're disoriented, even if you managed to get your hand on the gun could you point it and fire it, would you even be able to tell which direction to point it?

I think the best early warning defense would be a dog. The barking would wake you up, and you would have plenty of time to shoot the bear while it was eating the dog.

Tag
June 27, 2005, 09:01 PM
A good dog and a rifle thanks.

I've seen village dogs that will pester/annoy/run-off a big bear. There is nothing better for camping, or walking down a dark path after sunset in grizzley/kodiak territory, then a good dog.

A shotgun or other long gun in 30-06 or better is a good bet also.

PS. As to being jumped in your sleep by one of these monsters... :what:

slim chance you could do anything.

Selfdfenz
June 27, 2005, 09:41 PM
Perhaps one could do this...
Maybe that....
Have a gun....have enough gun.....etc etc

To me the best thing they could have done is not been in big bear county in a tent....

S-


S-

birddog
June 27, 2005, 09:55 PM
When I was bear hunting in Maine last year, we were remote-camping deep in bear country. Twice, I heard animals in camp (second night we spotted two coyotes that were likely the culprits). When I heard sniffing outside my tent the first night, I had NO trouble locating the 629 .44 mag under my cot. It was in my hand so fast you would have thought I had it on a string. If that was grizzly country and one suddenly ripped into my tent, I think I would have at least had a fighting chance.

pezo
June 27, 2005, 10:47 PM
That Tim treadwell and his girlfriend should have won an "idiot" award.

Akusp
June 27, 2005, 11:23 PM
Black Bear... those are some nice looking pups on the wall. Ever shoot a real bear?? :neener:

MICHAEL T
June 28, 2005, 12:10 AM
Don't play in their yard and you won't get hurt. We don't want them in our cities and they don't want us in their woods.

stevelyn
June 28, 2005, 12:41 AM
You would thought they would hear him approach the camp.

The incident took place in the ANWR. For those of you unfamiliar with tundra, it's like a giant green shag carpet that you sink up over your ankles in. It's primarily made of moss and peat. The entire state is covered with it to one degree or another. Consider the fact that the people inside the tent were all snug in their sleeping bags, and you won't hear anything or anybody approach. It's very likely that once the attack commenced no one had the presence of mind to go after the gun.


"Nocturnal" is pretty meaningless when the sun dosen't go below the horizon from April-August.

To me the best thing they could have done is not be in big bear country in a tent.

The entire state is big bear country. Polar bears along the Arctic coast, grizzlies and black bears in the interior, grizzlies on the arctic slope and Brooks Range, coastal brown and black bears in Southeast, coastal browns on the AK Pen, Kodiak and the Aleutians. They even show up in urban areas like the Anchorage hillside. It's not practical or possible to drag a cabin or motor home to all the places one would wish to visit. To enjoy this place you have to take some risks ............... risks that could get you injured or killed. There are things you can do to minimize those risks, but you can still do everything right and still get your arse killed.
Personally I prefer to takes my chances and enjoy what this place has to offer and not be a slave to any fears of what might happen. If I get whacked while enjoying those pursuits oh well, maybe I'll be rich in my next life and not have to work for a living.

Malone LaVeigh
June 28, 2005, 03:58 AM
what you use for defence in bear country I've worked in "bear country" for the last 14 years, which has included daily field work in all seasons and occasional camping. I have also hiked, hunted, rafted and backpacked all over the California Sierras for recreation.

I have never felt a need to carry anything specifically for bear protection. Occasionally, I have camped with firearms, but it wasn't because I thought black bears are a threat. One of my favorite camping spots on the Mendocino NF is within 100 yards of a bear wallow where I saw the biggest bear I have ever seen in the wild. Last time I camped there, I thought I'd stroll down to the bear wallow to see what was there about dusk. Scared the aforementioned large bear, which ran away from me as fast as it could.

I have seen scores of bear in the woods, usually during my work, and see scat almost every single time I go out in my current position on the Mendocino. Every bear I have ever seen in the wild was traveling in the opposite direction as fast as it could.

I usually carry something metalic for making noise if I'm backpacking, but on the job, nothing more than a notebook, pencil, binocs, tape measure, water bottle and a clinometer.

None of the above applies to grizzly bears, of course.

trapperjohn
June 28, 2005, 07:54 AM
Don't play in their yard and you won't get hurt. We don't want them in our cities and they don't want us in their woods :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :barf:

scotjute
June 28, 2005, 09:05 AM
The interesting problem as I see it, is the design of a tent that is at least resistant to grizzly bear penetration and yet is still light enough to be portable.
It should be resistant to determined bear efforts to get in for at a couple of minutes, given the occupants time to wake-up and apply counter-measures if they have any.
Given the power of a grizzly, this won't be easy.

Another observation is that perhaps one should not zip up in a sleeping bag in bear country, but simply unzip the bag and place it on top of you. Getting out of a zipped up bag can be a hassle for 2-3 minutes even if a bear is not trying to eat you.

KAR120C
June 28, 2005, 09:33 AM
Many of you are missing the point/off track. They weren't killed in their tent. Treadwell got out of the tent. Tried to scare the bear off by yelling, then the bear attacked. The attack lasted several minutes. His companion was uninjured for the first part of it and could easilly have retrieved and fired a gun, if they'd had one. Or she could have used bear mace. Treadwell himself successfully used bear mace at this same location (the maze) years earlier, against a bear he named Deamon. For some reason he gave up carrying bear mace after that.

Also, they weren't just camping "in the woods" where a bear might wander by every few days or so. The were intentionally camping in a prime fishing area for bears, to observe them. Teadwell sought out areas of intense bear concentration so he could watch them. They would see 10's of bears every day. Bears would frequently sleep around them, as in 10's of feet away. Treadwell would talk and sing to the bears, to establish "relationships" with them.

auschip
June 28, 2005, 09:46 AM
Many of you are missing the point/off track. They weren't killed in their tent. Treadwell got out of the tent. Tried to scare the bear off by yelling, then the bear attacked. The attack lasted several minutes. His companion was uninjured for the first part of it and could easilly have retrieved and fired a gun, if they'd had one. Or she could have used bear mace. Treadwell himself successfully used bear mace at this same location (the maze) years earlier, against a bear he named Deamon. For some reason he gave up carrying bear mace after that.

Also, they weren't just camping "in the woods" where a bear might wander by every few days or so. The were intentionally camping in a prime fishing area for bears, to observe them. Teadwell sought out areas of intense bear concentration so he could watch them. They would see 10's of bears every day. Bears would frequently sleep around them, as in 10's of feet away. Treadwell would talk and sing to the bears, to establish "relationships" with them.

The OP wasn't discussing Treadwell. It was discussing a couple who were killed in their tent by a predatory bear.

WT
June 28, 2005, 10:00 AM
LtCol Jeff Cooper once said that, when in grizzly bear country, he sleeps with a .44 magnum attached to his wrist with a 1 meter lanyard. Easier to find at night.

Another gunwriter said that he sleeps with a .44 magnum in a shoulder holster whilst in the wilds of Alaska.

The combat soldiers I know never zip up their sleeping bags. Long time habit.

THE BLUE PRESS had an article about a year ago of some guys in Arizona being attacked in their tent by a large black bear. BB is now deceased compliments of a handload from a .44 magnum.

Tokugawa
June 28, 2005, 10:58 AM
I have rafted those rivers in the anwr several times, never had a bear problem, did have a bear solution- 12gauge shortbarrel 870 with hot brennke slugs. Still, the weapon seemed a bit light in the presence of momma griz and baby griz.

cookekdjr
June 28, 2005, 11:09 AM
A follow-up from yesterday...

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/6656053p-6542899c.html

-David

Justin
June 28, 2005, 11:42 AM
Threads merged.

Father Knows Best
June 28, 2005, 12:12 PM
Malone LaVeigh wrote:I have never felt a need to carry anything specifically for bear protection. Occasionally, I have camped with firearms, but it wasn't because I thought black bears are a threat. One of my favorite camping spots on the Mendocino NF is within 100 yards of a bear wallow where I saw the biggest bear I have ever seen in the wild. Last time I camped there, I thought I'd stroll down to the bear wallow to see what was there about dusk. Scared the aforementioned large bear, which ran away from me as fast as it could.

I have seen scores of bear in the woods, usually during my work, and see scat almost every single time I go out in my current position on the Mendocino. Every bear I have ever seen in the wild was traveling in the opposite direction as fast as it could.

I usually carry something metalic for making noise if I'm backpacking, but on the job, nothing more than a notebook, pencil, binocs, tape measure, water bottle and a clinometer.

None of the above applies to grizzly bears, of course.

That last bit qualifies for the "Understatement of the Year" award. Black bears are about as different from the dangerous bears (Grizzly, Alaskan Brown, Polar) as your average house cats are from lions and tigers. I don't feel a need to carry a firearm for bear protection in most of the lower 48, but that's because it's extremely unlikely I will encounter anything other than black bears. I've seen more of those than I can count. If I'm going to be in Grizzly or Brown country, though, you better believe I'm packing serious firepower. And I simply don't go where Polar bears are expected to be. I value my hide too much.

Ryder
June 28, 2005, 01:18 PM
Black bears killed nearly three dozen people across the whole of North America last century
(http://www.bearsmart.com/coexistence/TruthAboutBears.html) while grizzlies have killed 18 people in the western United States alone over the same period of time (http://www.conservationnw.org/wildlife/grizzly/press_poll_1_04.html).

Definately nothing to worry about there?

I spent much of 30 years in the woods and have never seen a bear. Doesn't matter, I still wouldn't go into the woods without a gun if for nothing more than just because I can.

Father Knows Best
June 28, 2005, 02:26 PM
Definately nothing to worry about there?

I don't worry about attacks by black bears, but I always take basic precautions when I am in bear country -- even black bear country. I just don't feel the need for a firearm to defend myself against black bears. The likelihood of a dangerous attack by a black bear is so remote that the extra weight and complexity (legal) of carrying a firearm doesn't make sense.

I do often carry a handgun in the woods for protection against the kind of predator that walks on two feet. It may also be useful against black bears, but that's not why I carry it.

medmo
June 28, 2005, 03:57 PM
Never ever zip your sleeping bag. Snaps only. In an emergency you can bust out of the bag. This is USMC doctrine called a "Wild Mummy Bag Ride". The lesson was taught to many a Buck Private who zipped up there bag. One NCO rolls closed the top of the bag sealing the victim inside while two other NCO's lift the bag and victim. After a 300 to 400 yard ride the victim is then given a "heave, ho" and launched. You only make the mistake once and I know based on personal experience. Nothing like unzipping your bag in complete darkness, totally disoriented and with no boots.....

Bears have been eating people since the beginning of mankind. I think no matter how much planning is done occasionally the bears win.

Libertyteeth
June 28, 2005, 07:15 PM
It is true black bears will usually (but not always) do everything they can to avoid you. (So, actually, will grizzly bears.) From what I have read, if a black bear is breaking into your tent, figure it plans on eating you. It happens, if only rarely.

I always sleep with at least a .44 magnum in wild country - usually a pistol-gripped Mossburg 500 12 gauge shotgun with attached light, particularly in grizzly country. I have not had serious encounters, except being briefly chased by a black bear in West Yellowstone, Montana, when I was a kid, and something came into camp once, but it might have been a large dog. It was gone by the time I was able to check.

Out hiking or fishing, I usually carry the .44 magnum because not only do we have black bears and grizzlies in Montana, we also have moose (more of a concern than bears), mountain lions, range bulls, and now wolves. And the occasional two-legged crazie. I also carry pepper spray.

Malone LaVeigh
June 29, 2005, 01:17 AM
Black bears killed nearly three dozen people across the whole of North America last century
(http://www.bearsmart.com/coexistenc...AboutBears.html) while grizzlies have killed 18 people in the western United States alone over the same period of time (http://www.conservationnw.org/wildl...poll_1_04.html).

Definately nothing to worry about there? You're worried about something that killed less than 36 people over a land mass of millions of square miles over 100 years? Jeez, housecats have probably killed more people.

Ryder
June 29, 2005, 11:48 AM
No, I am not worried about bears. Like I said, never seen one in the woods and I have enough confidence in myself to handle anything one on one. If you must know my biggest worry in the woods around here is a pack of feral dogs. I've not seen them yet, only their tracks, large tracks and many of them. Sneaky buggers.

Looking at those numbers I supplied shows the two types af bear attacks to be relatively equal so it shouldn't make sense to fear one type of bear more than the other. Yet it seems most do. Guess that's the point I was trying to make.

black bear
June 29, 2005, 03:30 PM
I don’t think that we should consider the experience of only one man to evaluate the dangers of camping and hiking in the wilderness in bear country.
We should look at the records for that evaluation, and the records have proven that the Grizzly and Brown Bears are dangerous and very capable of inflicting death on humans.

The black bear with its widest distribution, more numbers, and somehow not earning sufficient respect, is the most prolific killer. But the killing is a drop in the ocean compared with the mauling that they inflict every year.
Those mauling by black bears have left scores of people mutilated and disfigured. It is a poor consolation when you save your life from an encounter with a black bear but are left disfigured and impaired for life.

Now, I have been roaming the wilderness for 34 years and have had a few encounters with bears that will have ended badly for me not I have been able to apply deadly force. But I don’t want to talk about my experiences but what the experts say or write.

As a hunter and enthusiast admirer of the black bear, I have read many books on them, many of them I have in my own bookshelf.
So, I know which experts have made a field of study in the attacks of bears.
As Bean East used to say, black bears are very unpredictable, maybe one out of one hundred will decide to make trouble for you, but you don’t know if the number one hundred will be the first that you will encounter.

Aside from my experiences, when you encounter one of those “dominant” bears in a narrow trail at night, you probably will be confronted by a bear that will not want to leave the trail, it will growl or puff or click his teeth and will break the foliage and small trees around his area. The display is designed to get you out of there quick and leave him to go on his way. When your car is beyond the bear and you can not retreat by trail but go into the woods to avoid a confrontation, even if you have with you a 30-06 in your hands as my wife had that night, you will be scared out of your pants. (My wife has two bears under her belt; still one thing is to get them during the day and another encounter then at night).
My son, ten at the time was with her in that occasion; to this day he has found heightened enthusiasm for hunting or roaming wild places at night and the thrill of what dangerous encounter the darkness can hold.(crazy kid)

I took the big one with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/bearruger.jpg

Some books to read when the computer is down.

Stephen Herrero’s Bear Attacks “Their causes and avoidance,” a very well research book that should be read by anyone considering camping in the wild.

Killer Bears by Mike Cramond (1981)
All about bears by Don DeHart (1971)
Bears by Ben East
Bear by Clyde Ormond
All about Bears by Duncan Gilchrist


Or the classic ones dealing with Grizzlies:
The Kodiak Bear by Jim Woodworth (1958)
The Grizzly Bear by Bessie and Edgar Haynes
The Grizzlies of Glacier by Warren Leonard Hanna
True Bear Stories by Joaquin Miller
Man Mets Grizzly by F. M. Young
Tales of Alaska’s Big Bears by Jim Rearden
The Grizzly Bear by William H. Wright
The Beast that walk like a man by Harold Mc Craken



One thing is for certain, if you have an encounter with a black bear in less than propitious conditions (read: at night) it will leave you with an unforgettable experience if you are lucky, if you are not.....

Black bear

Cosmoline
June 29, 2005, 05:17 PM
My own experiences with coastal brownies has been that they are typically a lot more afraid of me than the other way around. They are also very well fed on salmon and are FAR more tolerant of humans and other bears than griz. The fact that the bears at Treadwell's site tolerated a Malibu hippy poking them, messing with their turf and calling them goo-goo names for several years before finally eating him is a testimony to their fundamental nature. I would have lost my patience with Treadwell a lot sooner if he'd been bothering me and calling me goo-goo names while camping out in my place. The only brownies who pose a real threat are boars guarding kills and sows protecting cubs.

Around here, black bears give me a lot more concern. Many times while hiking I've run across them at close range, and their behavior has been disturbing. They don't run off until they've taken a good look at me. And I know enough to know they're not trying to be cute. A hungry black bear will generally attack anything that's smaller than he is. Up here we have black bear well into the 300 lb. range. Granted a small child or woman is at greater risk, but I don't want to get slashed either.

The griz, who don't live around here but further north, are a different story. They have a mean streak a mile wide. I remember a few years back how one angry griz had gotten fed up with rafters floating down his piece of the Yukon. He ran a batch of them off their boats and into the water and charged at several subsequent rafters. The pilot of a plane flying over the area some time later noticed the same griz, JUMPING UP AND DOWN ON THE REMNANTS OF A RAFT in a display of pure rage that was still going on DAYS after the humans had left!!

I'm also a bit fatalistic about brown bear and griz. If one of those guys wants to kill you, you're dead meat. The last really bad brownie attack around Anchorage was at McHugh back in 95 IIRC. The boar was guarding a fresh moose kill when three joggers ran right in front of him. The first went by, then the bear charged the second. It broke the woman's back and killed her instantly--just like a car hitting her. The third jogger--an adult male, was hit by a single claw swipe that SENT HIM FLYING SEVERAL YARDS into the underbrush. The bear then left the area. The man lingered a while longer, but rescuers could not figure out what was wrong with him. They though maybe a moose had kicked him. He hadn't been mauled, but the bear's claws had penetratd into his chest and ruptured his heart/lung area. The thing to note there is that the brownie boar didn't even need to maul his victims. A charge and a swipe killed two people in a matter of seconds. The coastal brown bear could, if he wanted, be the most fearsome maneater on the planet. He can charge at over 30 MPH and can weigh in excess of 1,000 lbs. Such a beast could break an African lion in half. But they like the fish and the moose a lot more than humans, and generally just want to be left alone.

Given the near-zero visibility on the trails in these parts due to dense vegetation, you're just as well off keeping a snub nose .357 with four for the bear and one for you. I figure I might be able to do something to persuade a black bear from getting fresh with me, but against a brownie I just try not to get crosswise with them. I keep my ears open and if I see sign of the big guys I get out of the area.

bbgun
June 30, 2005, 10:00 AM
neither one of them approaches the power of a 12 ga, and 100 lb deer run off with 12 ga slugs thru their chests, often enough to make any sensible man realize that 1-2 such chest hits will stop a grizzly only with a lot of luck.

Len
June 30, 2005, 10:17 AM
I'm no expert on bears...I see a few from time to time on the farm up North...

But something Cosmoline said reminded me of what an old-timer told me...

He would agree that all bears are at their worst when guarding kills, cubs, and during mating season...he would also say that's it's incredible how quietly they can move around...

"Problem is," he told me, "you very rarely know when there's a kill or a cub around! You may see the bear, you may not be attacked, you may survive an attack, or wind up killing the bear if necessary...but you might not ever see the reason it decided to get agressive with you!"

As far as the Treadwell story...."familiarity breeds contempt."

thrifty7
June 30, 2005, 12:56 PM
All bears are known for bluff charging. Unfortunately, this gives some people the false impression that they have "scared off" the bear if they yelled or made noise and the bear turned and ran. Rest assured that if the bear really wants you for lunch, the biggest gun you can carry only improves your odds of survival. Nothing guarantees it.

middy
June 30, 2005, 01:30 PM
The fact that the bears at Treadwell's site tolerated a Malibu hippy poking them, messing with their turf and calling them goo-goo names for several years before finally eating him is a testimony to their fundamental nature.
Bwahahaha! ROFL

Double Naught Spy
June 30, 2005, 02:02 PM
You're worried about something that killed less than 36 people over a land mass of millions of square miles over 100 years? Jeez, housecats have probably killed more people.

I can't believe that some of you are taking for granted that the information from Dr. Lynn Rogers is 100% accurate. http://www.bearsmart.com/coexistence/TruthAboutBears.html
Did y'all even bother to read the page? The guy guy sounds like Timothy Treadwell, proclaiming how he is "trusted" by certain bear and bear families.

Apparently, human kills by black bears are about 11 times what is claimed by Dr. Lynn Rogers, http://outdoors.coloradosprings.com/wildlife/fullStory.jsp?id=1549 has the number at 4 per year, multiplied by 100 years and you get 400, not 36

I like the notes here on protection as they ring true of the accounts I studied before working survey in Alaska one summer http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/forest_facts/safety/bearfacts.htm "Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."

black bear
July 2, 2005, 10:22 AM
They were doing almost everything right; cooking and eating in one place then traveling and sleeping in another, having food stored in bear-proof containers and having a gun for defense.
I don’t think that they had a perimeter alarm, maybe because in the Tundra there are no trees to attach the cord, and I consider that the first priority. I have two: the first one being the Para cord and the screaming siren and the second is the Driveway alert.
And if I were camping in Alaska I will probably have one more Driveway Alert.
I cannot say enough good things about this unit; I have tested it in my backyard, in rain and snow, and it always worked.
I got mine through Heartland catalogue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/drivewaypatrol.jpg

Why is it so important to be warned of an intrusion in your campsite? Well, I just woke up and went to the computer, and my eyes don’t focus properly. My legs and arms are painful from the arthritis and from getting the humid air the entire night, my responses are sluggish, and I need a little time and a cup of coffee to just get going (I am 60, the age of the lawyer that got killed).

I imagine that after paddling a canoe or hiking for several hours your body responses will be at an all time low. Awakened from profound sleep by an attacking bear, what are your chances even if you have a gun nearby?

I am going to implement in my camping routine two more things that I have learned on this Forum. My.44 Magnum or the S&W 500 (if I can get one) is going to be attached by a lanyard to my wrist, and my sleeping bag will be unzipped.

If I throw 951 lumens of light in the face of a bear whose eyes are conditioned to the dark, IT WILL BE BLINDED.
My powerful flashlight (The MAG 951 for 951 lumens that I modify and also sell to members of this Forum) will be attached to my pants by the Maglite holder that you see in the picture. And as usual I will have a light going on the entire night; for that purpose I use an Infinity Ultra hanging from the ceiling of the tent.

In Alaska I also will have one of the new Marlin Guide carbines in 450 Marlin or hot 45-70 and the revolver will be a 454 Casull or an S&W 500.
If I could not buy those revolvers it will have to be my Ruger Redhawk with 7 ˝ inches barrel and a very hot handload with the 300 grains Hornady XTP.

I would like to have a hiking staff made into a short spear, something like the Zulus used, with a cover for the blade to use while hiking and uncovered and lying next to me while sleeping..
Something similar to what is shown in my picture
So, the kit I showed before a couple pages up is the one I used for camping in N. Y. in black bear country.
This picture shows what it is going to be for Grizzly if I made my many times postponed trip to Alaska.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/grizzlybearkit.jpg

If all this precautions sound a little extreme to you, just consider what happened to this couple.

Regards,
Black bear

bearmgc
July 2, 2005, 12:59 PM
Heard so many "they will run from you" stories by others on bears and cats before moving to bear and cat country 14 years ago, glad I didn't listen. Maced a black bear that instantly tried to bully me on a game trail during hunting season. No sound , there he was. Waaay too close for comfort. Didn't need to fire a shot that time. Don't want to ever experience that again. Cougar visited my supper on a river bank after a great day of fishing, came within 50yds, waay too close for comfort. Did not back off when I yelled. He was properly dispensed. Poor guy had no decent teeth. In the woods with predatory animals, I will be ready. In Alaska with BIG predatory animals, you bet double ready. Anything less would be stupid. Any prewarning devices, including dogs, when tent camping , need to be seriously considered. I do not tent camp in bear country, and will not ever consider it.

culleniii
July 2, 2005, 01:16 PM
If you are ever going to need a firearm then its gonna be in the woods.

I cant beleive all the people that go hiking and not carrry the basics. Firearm--at least a 22wmr, a fixed blade at least 6inches and a multi tool not to mention a SAK --thats a given.

Black Bear---glad to see someone else is using what i been using for many years---I have used those perimeter alarms--usually 3 for about 10 years now---work really good---mine are a bit smaller though and use motion rather than trip

I also use that cold steel knife for my hiking staff.

I have only hiked in lower 48 from washington state to maine to montana and down south here.

I usually carry a Glock in .357 sig caliber--most encounters i have had were with 2 legged varmints. But also carry a Model 720 Rossi with Cor Bon/Buffalo Bore for bigger threats and will be getting a Taurus .45acp tracker and loading with .45 super loads.

I have always slept with sleeping bag unzipped myself and always have lanyard with cold steel recon tanto and gun holster lanyarded to hand.

How can i get one of those Maglite conversions?

black bear
July 2, 2005, 05:09 PM
culleniii

Thanks for your appreciation, and I also agree with you. I don't know how some people can ignore the probabilities of getting hurt in the woods by wild animals.
Witness all the cougar attacks lately and even wild dogs attacks to people even close to civilized areas.

With respect to my modification called the MAG 951, I have been selling them for a few months here and many members are using them.
I have a thread in Buy/Sell/Trade Accessories that is already quite long: here is a link to the third page with the latest information.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=125447&page=3

I am also running a contest and giving one for free, as a way to thank the good people of this Forum and my many friends here. The winner is to be picked as a number out of a hat on July 23.
Go to this thread and post your entry (no charge) and good luck! Everybody is welcome to try.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144130

I have to say that I value human life too much to let a wild animal take it, especially when it is my life that is in jeopardy.
I am here to tell the tale because one day I was able, prepared and willing to defend myself against such an attack by a bear.
If some people that go into the wood will drop the Disney mentality on entering and face the reality of life in the wild, and take precautions accordingly, we will be seeing less tragedy.

All this in my humble opinion.

Respectfully,

black bear

Rockstar
July 2, 2005, 05:59 PM
McVeigh: I'm sure the family members of those folks killed by black bears over the past few years would find your ignorance about black bears amusing! Google is your friend.

Cosmoline
July 3, 2005, 05:59 PM
I don't see anything wrong with packing a hand cannon IF you really will pack it and IF you really can fire six shots out of it in a single, rapid and accurate volley. Practicing with .45 Colt all day out of a Casull means NOTHING. When a bear comes charging, it comes in fast. Very, very fast. In a real attack, you have at most a number of seconds before the bear is on top of you. You need to be able to fire a volley of full-power shots using the same rounds you'll use on the trail into a 6" circle at ten yards. The problem I always had with the SRH Casull was that the recoil with powerhouse loads was so overpowering I couldn't get followup shots quickly enough and I developed a nasty flinch. I like the .357 because I can pump five rounds into a 3" circle at ten yards in the same amount of time it took me to get one Casull out the barrel. You want to get as much lead into the bear as possible, since you're trying to hit a shoulder joint or the brain pan, and neither is an easy target to hit. The .357 or .44 Magnum hardcast slugs will give you as much penetration as you could possibly need, so you're not really gaining much by moving up to an ultra-magnum.

Also, I'd suggest using an Alaska Sportsman style belly holster as it distributes the weight of a big boomer a lot better than a belt holster and is easier to deal with while pushing through thick cover.

Tokugawa
July 3, 2005, 09:29 PM
The guys I have known in Alaska were prone to laughing at handguns for bears. Hell, they even laughed at my shotgun, and those 1 3/8 oz Brennke slugs were the hardest kicking rounds I have ever fired. Made a .375 H+H mag seem like a popgun by comparison.

Cosmoline
July 3, 2005, 09:44 PM
A shotgun loaded with Brennke magnums is the ballistic equivalent of a hot .45-70, with nearly 3,000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. If they laughed at that, they're idiots. The myth that shotguns are inadequate for bear comes from experiences using weak soft lead slugs and buckshot. Modern European style hardcast magnum slugs are a completely different class of slug--as your shoulder will tell you.

Certainly any long gun is going to be a better bet than a handgun if you have it with you and if you have time to load it and if you have time to aim it. But there's something to be said for a fast, ready-to-shoot revolver in a pinch. It's better than nothing. And it's also better than a rifle with nothing in the chamber slug over your back.

There are guide services up here that tell outsiders you need a minimum of a .375 H&H for bear, and encourage .458 Win Mag!! This is complete bravo sierra. I suspect they spin these yarns because they're worried about their outside customers being crappy shots. I just got through watching the DVD put out by one of these places, and frankly the black and brown coastal bears their clients shot with their howitzers didn't seem to notice the difference between the massive slugs and a .30'06.

waterhouse
July 3, 2005, 10:15 PM
When a bear comes charging, it comes in fast. Very, very fast. In a real attack, you have at most a number of seconds before the bear is on top of you.

This can't be stressed enough.

I posted this in another thread, but it bears (ha, no pun intented) repeating:

I went through a drive through animal park once in Indonesia. This was an animal park where it was quite clear that I was very close to many animals. I had the front window open and was looking through the viewfinder on a camera at something when everyone in the backseat started yelling "bear!" I looked up just in time to see the (relatively small) charging bear and dive for cover in the driver's lap (which turned out to be a bad idea since the car wasn't in gear and I was now covering the gear shift as the bear chewed on my seatbelt.) I screamed like a little girl which was unfortuanetly caught on video tape and now makes an appearance at most family functions. If I had been walking around in the wild with a gun on my hip there is no way I would have had time to get to it. This bear was super quick, and I can only assume that its relatives have similar speed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/waterhouse/bear.jpg

I used to be afraid of sharks and being someone's girlfriend if I ever ended up in prison. A couple years ago I added bears to the list.

Cosmoline
July 3, 2005, 10:46 PM
Even the fat coastal brown bears with bellies so big they have to dig holes for their guts in order to lie down can sprint faster than the fastest human alive. They're amazing animals.

Like I said earlier, if the Alaska coastal brown bear wanted to eat people, it would be the most fearsome man eater on the planet. Just contemplate the physics of a creature weighing over 1,000 lbs. moving at 35 MPH, and add to it five inch claws and jaws big enough to grab a human head and crush it like a peanut. An African leopard weighs less than 150 lbs, a large lion 400 lbs., and a large Bengal tiger perhaps 500 lbs. A male Alaska coastal brown bear can weigh up to 1,200 lbs. in the fall. That's three times the size of a typical lion. You're only real hope if facing the business end of such a creature is to get some bullets into the brain or the shoulder joints. A heart/lung shot with anything less than a 30mm cannon will not stop a genuine charge in time. Going with a big boomer because you think the extra ft. lbs. will make that much difference is nuts. An animal of that magnitude won't even notice the difference between an elephant gun and a .30'06. You have to get the bullets in the right place.

Thankfully, they don't have much of a taste for manflesh and generally keep to themselves.

DonNikmare
July 4, 2005, 01:46 AM
Well, almost all of the lessons I learned from "The Edge" movie (Alec Bouldwin & Anthony Hopkins) have gone to hell as a result of this thread. ;)

I appriciated the detailed tips and posts.

Nik

black bear
July 4, 2005, 12:08 PM
Don Nickmare,

I also saw the movie, Bart (the Bear) was 1400 pounds (according to my review book) when he acted in the movie.
He died from cancer not long ago.

Here is a picture of him and Doug the trainer that raised him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/BartandDoug.jpg

black bear

Rovi
July 4, 2005, 12:33 PM
Hey, Bart (the Bear) has an entry on www.imdb.com (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1075976/)!

It would appear he suffered from terrible type-casting :D


Hmmmmmmmmm.......................... he's also to be found on www.findagrave.com (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6740051&PIgrid=6740051&PIcrid=1543305&PIpi=319556&pt=+Bart+the+Bear&)
Ooooookay :scrutiny:
They have another picture of him-
http://216.15.204.50/findagrave_2/2002/265/6740051_1032810263.jpg

Holy carp! :eek: :eek: :eek:
We don't got no (wild) bears here in Ireland, but we do have cattle, and that bear's head looks to me to be about the same size as a Hereford/Charalois bull's!
:eek: (again!)
His claws are longer and thicker than the man's fingers!!!

The biggest wild carnivore we've got is the badger, and he prefers slugs and such. Perhaps boring old Ireland isn't so bad after all :)

carebear
July 4, 2005, 01:28 PM
I thought the biggest wild carnivore you had was Irishmen. :scrutiny:

:D

Gewehr98
July 4, 2005, 01:55 PM
Do you sell 951 Lumen MagLite conversions?

The flashlight is not the regular Maglite 3 “D” that output 39 lumens but a special modification I do that outputs 951 lumens, making it the most powerful flashlight in the world. (I am selling my modifications to members of this Forum)

If I throw 951 lumens of light in the face of a bear whose eyes are conditioned to the dark, IT WILL BE BLINDED. My powerful flashlight (The MAG 951 for 951 lumens that I modify and also sell to members of this Forum)


Thought for a second I was browsing the "Buy, Sell, and Trade Accessories" forum. :rolleyes:

Doesn't mean I won't order one in the near future, but, c'mon, this is a bear thread, right?

Rovi
July 4, 2005, 02:24 PM
I thought the biggest wild carnivore you had was Irishmen.Nah, that would be Irish women-
http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/HollywoodCowboys/leading_ladies/MAUREEN%20O'HARA.jpg


:D :D

Cosmoline
July 4, 2005, 02:39 PM
LOL

IIRC she bagged some really big game in "The Quiet Man"

As far as blinding bear--I've never heard of that as a defense. It might be useful to startle them, but a bear's eyesight is at best equal to our own. They hunt with their noses, which are among the most sensitive in nature. They can smell a human many miles away, and can even smell if a person has merely walked through an area within the past few weeks. That's why it's so silly to think that a bear nosing into a person's tent is just trying to figure out what the tent is. Its nose has already told it, miles back, that there were humans in the area. I knows perfectly well that there are humans in the tent. It can probably tell what the humans ate for the past week and if they have cancer or other disease. It just doesn't care.

black bear
July 4, 2005, 03:22 PM
Cosmoline,
When you are talking about a massive output of lumens into dark adapted eyes, it will work on bears as well as they do on humans.

It is the same as when you approach a deer in the road in your car, and they stay put and don't move, it is because they are blinded and because they can not see they don't move.
It is the same technique than the poachers use, to blind them with a spotlight so they can shoot at leisure.

I have spotlighted a lot of black bears when the dumps of Minerva and Newcomb in the Adirondacks were open at night (years ago) I was doing research and observing trends. I knew they could not see even when appeared that they were looking at the light, because my assistant could move close to then by flanking.
If the wind was proper my assistant could get close to them, two senses were negated to them, one the sight and another was the scent, (as the wind didn't help them) of course we had to be careful as they could still hear very well.

So a very strong light will help to blind them and for you to see your sights and your target.
It will not help you during the day :D

black bear

snowtigger
July 4, 2005, 03:50 PM
The only person I know who has been attacked by a Grizzly was asleep with his now ex-wife in a double sleeping bag. The first sign of the bear was when she grabbed his wife by her face and dragged her out of the bag.
He jumped up, half asleep and attacked the bear, not realizing it WAS a bear. It managed to rip his scalp off and fracture his skull. before turning her attention to another camper and with one swipe, lacerating his leg to the bone with all four claws.
She then grabbed my friend in her mouth and his wife with one paw and RANOFF wwith them both. As she ran down a trail, she jumped over a log, dropped them both, and kept going.
I have always said "the only thing you can say for sure about bears is you can't say anything sure about bears". They do what they do.
I know I never go very far in the woods without a good .44 mag. There are bigger guns, but I can hit with this one.
If circumstances permit, the 45/70 is right there too.
Try reading "Alaska Bear Tales", both volums. Most of these stories are from the time I have lived in Alaska.
The particular story about my friend didn't make the book because it happened in Canada.

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