How many criminals know to use Defense/Hollow Point ammo?


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hartzpad
June 28, 2005, 08:34 PM
I was just wondering the other day....with so many stories of incredibly stupid criminals out there, about what percentage of criminals that use guns actually know they should use hollow point/expanding/defense ammo in their gun? It's only personal speculation, but I bet that more than 80% of criminals that use guns just use the cheapest FMJ ammo they can find. What do you think?

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dolanp
June 28, 2005, 09:07 PM
I think you're probably right, they probably just buy what's cheapest just like the gun itself.

Lone_Gunman
June 28, 2005, 09:38 PM
I have operated on a couple of hundred gun shot wound patients, and would say that 90% of the projectiles I have recovered were FMJ's.

Now, this does not necessarily mean that criminal use FMJ's 90% of the time, as I am only operating on people who live long enough to make it to the hospital, so my statistics may be biased in favor of FMJ's. If they were shot with hollowpoints, and if they died at the scene, obviously the coroner handles that.

Pilgrim
June 28, 2005, 09:40 PM
I think you will find that criminals run the full spectrum from incredibly stupid to very sophisticated.

Pilgrim

Preacherman
June 28, 2005, 09:47 PM
One Mafia hitman of my acquaintance was meticulous about buying the best ammo available for his intended "job", including hollowpoints, etc. In one case, he specifically bought frangible ammo because he wanted it to disintegrate inside his target to prevent ballistic identification of the gun used: normally, he disposed of the gun after every hit, but in this case, he liked the gun and wanted to keep it, hence the frangible ammo.

(He's now serving six life sentences plus about 138 years - all to run consecutively - in Federal prison. One gets the feeling the Judge didn't want him getting out again... :rolleyes: )

However, I guess he's the exception that proves the rule. Most BG's with guns (that I've encountered in prison, where I work) tend to buy the cheapest possible ammo off the Wal-Mart shelf, or buy a magazineful of whatever their supplier is offering when they buy the gun. Needless to say, an underworld supplier of a "hot" gun isn't motivated to spend extra on the good stuff!

Jim K
June 28, 2005, 09:52 PM
Some BGs are surprisingly knowledgeable about guns and ammo, but most use whatever they can buy, steal, or get on the black market.

Pretty near tops in the "dumb crook" department was the guy who pulled a stickup using a Remington Smoot .38. He had loaded it with .38 Short Colt cartridges, which would have been OK, except that no one told him that most Smoots are rimfire and this one was not one of the exceptions.

Jim

P95Carry
June 28, 2005, 09:52 PM
Lone Gunman - I am assuming from your post you are/were a surgeon. Without trying to dig too deep into the macabre, can you make any informed comments re the FMJ wound channel, damage etc. My background is medical.

If 10% were from non FMJ, so thus I assume HP and the like - again any comments for us. I am not trying to be too nosey but would value your assessment, as you see it. Comparisons if you will.

Double Naught Spy
June 28, 2005, 10:09 PM
...what percentage of criminals that use guns actually know they should use hollow point/expanding/defense ammo in their gun? It's only personal speculation, but I bet that more than 80% of criminals that use guns just use the cheapest FMJ ammo they can find. What do you think?

Why do you think criminal should use hollow point/expanding/defense ammo in their gun? The assumption that they should be using such ammo is without foundation. It assuming that the goal of criminals in shooting their opposition is the same as the goal of law abiding citizens and police.

Defensive use of hollowpoint ammo is, in part, to preclude problems of over penetration. Expansion helps to assure that bullets fired by friendlies don't over penetrate and continue down range and potentially damage other friendlies or 3rd party non-combatants. Many types of defensive or expanding ammo is used by folks to help preclude missed shots from harming folks in other rooms of a house or in adjoining apartments. These sorts of concerns are the concerns of the good guys. Are they the same as concerns for the bad guys?

Bad guys do not worry about harming 3rd party individuals. They are not concerned with over penetration and are not concerned with harming people in adjoining rooms or apartments. In fact, the more confustion, destruction, etc that they can create, the more the good guys are focussed on dealing with those problems and not dealing with the bad guys.

Good guys live with the fear that the bad guys attacking them may be on drugs or have such a mind set that they will not be easily intimidated by simple wounds and so defensive expanding ammo is thought to cause more dramatic wounds.

Bad guys are not fearful of good guys being on drugs. In fact, they pretty well know that folks other than cops will not need much convincing to stop their pursuits. Most non-leo good guys are not willing to give their life in trying to catch a criminal who isn't activily engaged in trying to harm another good guy.

And probably one of the most significant reasons bad guys probably don't want to use hollowpoint ammo is that they are going to be going against the cops. In considering pistol hollowpoint or expanding ammo and soft body armor, the hollowpoint or expanding ammo is LESS likely to penetrate body armor than ball ammo.

So, I find the assumption that criminals should be using hollowpoint/defensive/expanding ammo to be very flawed.

Do they use the cheapest FMJ they can find? I don't know. What I do know is that a lot of the 'cheap' FMJ ammo out there is very reliable and performs just as well as the much higher priced FMJ or defensive ammo in terms of velocity, accuracy, and reliability over the fairly short distances where bad guys exchange shots with good guys. My $3.86 a box Blazer 9mm FMJ 115 gr does just as well as more expensive brands such as $7 S&B ball, $6-9 varieties of Winchester, Federal, UMC, Ultramax, or $5 Wolf.

Lone_Gunman
June 28, 2005, 10:42 PM
Lone Gunman - I am assuming from your post you are/were a surgeon. Without trying to dig too deep into the macabre, can you make any informed comments re the FMJ wound channel, damage etc.

I do general and vascular surgery, and this means I am also on call for trauma.

My observations as a surgeon need to be taken in context. Remember, that if someone is killed at the scene, I never see them. Thus, I get a skewed population of GSW victims: those that live long enough to make it to the ER. Thus, I presume I see less extensive injuries than occur overall.

I have seen only a handful of people shot in the torso with 45's and 357's. I presume this is either because criminals don't use these calibers, or if they do, the victim dies at the scene before I see them. Of the ones I have seen, I would guesstimate that about half these people lived to make it out of the hospital. These calibers make impressive wounds, penetrate deep, and usually exit.

I cannot tell much (if any?) difference between a FMJ and JHP wound channel.

I have seen many 9mm, 380, 38 spec, 32, 25, and 22 wounds. The majority of these were FMJ's. Of the JHP's, I would guess that less than half expanded. Most were just deformed a little bit. 9mm usually penetrates deep and exits. 380's are more likely to not penetrate deeply enough to exit, even FMJ's.

I don't see any difference in wound channels or tissue destruction between 9mm, 380, and 38 special. 25 and 22 caliber wounds are noticably smaller, but I am not sure this would correlate with an improved rate of survival when compared to the larger rounds. For example someone gut shot with a 38 will have a bigger hole than a 22, but both can easily be fixed, and the chances of dying of infection post op are the same.

The vast majority of people shot with 9mm, 380, 38 special, 32, 25, and 22 will make it out of the hospital alive.

The bottom line impression I have is that big, deep holes are more effective at causing death than small, shallow holes, but I bet you probably already had that one figured out!

P95Carry
June 28, 2005, 10:46 PM
Thx LG - no great surprises but - good to hear from a guru!! :)

Topgun
June 28, 2005, 10:50 PM
I was robbed with plain old round nosed lead .38 specials.

I looked.

They were the deadliest rounds I ever saw. Each was about a foot in diameter. I did what I was told.

:uhoh:

Lone_Gunman
June 28, 2005, 10:52 PM
When it comes to trauma surgery, I am more of a reluctant draftee than a guru! Very few people actually want to do trauma surgery.

The employed, insured, and drug-free are rarely shot at 3 a.m.

A general rule of thumb when dealing with trauma patients is that there is no such thing as an innocent GSW victim. Obviously, this rule can occasionally be proven untrue, but that is the exception.

Still, we do our best with what we are given; I do my part, and God decides who lives.

fistful
June 28, 2005, 11:05 PM
Listen to some hip-hop music, the more crime-related kind. Those guys rap about hollow-points or "hollow-heads" frequently. Presumably, a lot of younger criminals are listening to that stuff. The better question is, how the do the MC's (who sing the songs) know about it? I would guess that JHP's, and their "greater lethality," are well-known to the general population.

00,

I think your analysis is a little over-stated. We can presume two things, I think. Some criminals want to hurt their target as much as possible, just like you or I would in a legitimate shooting. By that I mean that we want to keep our enemy from hurting us, and a criminal doesn't want his victim to be able to come back and get him. On the other hand, there are probably a lot of criminals who would rather their target survive, so they get charged with assault rather than murder.

WT
June 28, 2005, 11:08 PM
I frequently see news articles where bad guys are arrested and, among other charges, they are charged with carrying hollowpoint ammo. Carrying hollowpoints is a no-no for civilians in NJ resulting in a 3rd degree felony charge (5 to 10).

I do recall a victim WALKING into the ER in Newark with 3-9mm HP's in his chest. Very fat guy. He lived.

So I would say yes, a lot of BG's carry HP's.

walking arsenal
June 28, 2005, 11:11 PM
I read someplace once that somthing like 83% of gunshot victims hit with HP's live. I'm assuming this is do to to the fact that whoever deals with them before the medics show up has to work with only one hole, a lot more die from FMJ wounds due to through and through wounds, they bleed out faster, and less people think to plug the hole in the back.


On that note i'd be more worried that the BG has FMJ's that HP's do to the penetration factor though i'd rather not be hit with either.

Lone_Gunman
June 28, 2005, 11:16 PM
Exit wounds do nothing to enhance bleeding, from the wound per se. Plugging an exit wound will not stop bleeding. It may keep from making a mess on the carpet, but the bleeding will still occur internally.

Certainly bullets that penetrate deep enough to exit will cause more bleeding than a shallow wound, but the fact that bullet exits the skin makes no difference.

If a bullet stops goes all the way through the chest for example and stops 1 centimeter before exiting the skin of the back, it will produce no less bleeding than if it exits. The bleeding will just occur into the chest cavity.

Exit wounds and bleeding become more of an issue with high powered rifle rounds, where large exit wounds are more likely to occur, and external bleeding is desirable to help track game.

Cesiumsponge
June 28, 2005, 11:19 PM
I've seen both cheap FMJ and JHP. They'd likely grab whatever is cheapest.

Maybe someone should open up an ammunition company that sells "ammo for da streets". Make claims about how "it'll scare the homies" and they're "untracable by ballistic testing" and whatnot. The actual ammo itself would be nothing more than blanks with a thin plastic "bullet" that gives it the appearance of an actual, dangerous, functional cartridge. Said thin plastic would disintegrate upon firing, not like a shotgun's shotcup which can still kill someone . Making the claims would be true because there would be no ballistic projectile and it sure as hell would scare someone.

Problem would be getting the "ammo" to the "right people". If there was only a way to distribute it to every badguy and scumbag...and to capture the look on their face when they unload a mag of blanks on police.

Simulated scenario at gunstore:

*Gangbanger walks in, drops hand down pants and produces a dusty looking Glock 19* "yo, what kinda bullets I need for my Glock, You got bullets for this? I gots some beef to settle"
Gun store owner in best helpful tone while trying to hide smirk: "Ah I got just the thing *slides over a 50 round box of said ammo with fancy colorful extreme motiff* "newest stuff on the market, been selling like hotcakes too, can't be traced ballistically by police and guaranteed to feed reliably"
Gangbanger with stars in his eyes "how much yo?"
Gunstore owner: "ten bucks a box"
Gangbanger: "I take deuce" *reaches down into pants again and produces a large wad of $20s. Peels one off and throws it on the table*
Gunstore owner: *pulls up another box and slides them both over, Reaches for a paper towel and feigns blowing his nose, then picks up the $20 with the tissue and places into the cash register (I wouldn't touch it too if I saw where it came from)
Gangbanger: "yo man, this is gonna be dope" *somehow manages to conceal firearm, wad of cash, and two boxes of ammo and waddles haphazardly out the store*

...later on that night on the news...

News anchor: "and in tonight's news, a local group of gangbangers opened fire with nearly 100 shots on police with no casualties amazingly. Police managed to neutralize two of the suspects and chased down a third perpetrator. *queues up video clip*
*COPS cameraman chasing gangbanger with police.
Gangbanger is heard shouting "man thats whack, thats whack!" as he throws down his pistol, now devoid of ammo, into a bush while running before he is blindsided by a cop hiding behind a partition wall.

...okay unrealistic and full of legal issues, but I can dream of a better world :p

P95Carry
June 28, 2005, 11:25 PM
Cesium - we can but dream LOL! :D

TexAg
June 28, 2005, 11:28 PM
It would be interesting to know what the break down is on what criminals carry. It would also be intresting to know what regular gun-owning, law abiding civilians have in their guns. I'm sure most of the folks that post on internet boards such as this one and the ones that are subscribers to gun magazines probably have decent HP ammo on hand, but for the lay gun owner who bought a gun after 9-11 or for whatever reason (and maybe its their "Daddy's 'ol .22 or .45) we might be suprised. As a home inspector I go into folks homes that are often occupied still by the home owner and I sometimes see on their closet shelves the ammo they have on hand, and so far its been mostly FMJ. Of course this may only be their "target" ammo, but it does make me curious.
And no I don't go snooping! This is just what I've seeing sitting right there in their closets.

GunGoBoom
June 28, 2005, 11:59 PM
cesium I like that a lot!

Jay Kominek
June 29, 2005, 12:31 AM
It would be interesting to know what the break down is on what criminals carry. There was a thread, sometime in the last year and a half (I think) with anecdotal reports of what LEO members had found criminals carrying. I can't seem to find it at the moment. (UPDATE: I think this is it. (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122806))
But based on myshoddy recollection, the question to ask before "Do they know to carry JHP?" is "Do they know to carry the right caliber ammo?"

Moonclip
June 29, 2005, 04:33 AM
As mentioned previously rap music makes many refrences to guns, some quite odd you would think, I've heard of ".410 Mossberg pistol grip pump"and "so he loaded up his 32". And ammo types like "hollowtips" are metioned as well as black talons loaded in to a Calico. Why do rap songs not mention Ravens and Lorcins and for that matter S&W 38's, guns that turn up very often in crime scenes?

Living in an area with a high gang population and operating a gun range at one time that catered to many minority memebrs of our community including some "homies" and Asian gang members(no one really admits their gang affiliation to me but tattoos and clothing tell a lot if you know what to look for) I have made some interesting observations. I have met many people who have been shot with handguns and survived but only a couple with survivable long gun wounds.

One guy I met, the guy had been shot with a Mini 14 while beating a fellow inmate in state prison. He survived but barely because of substantial blood loss. Another guy I met, a Mexican drug dealer "Sinaloa Cowboy " type had been shot in the head with an AK round but it was a glancing blow it seemed.

I have never met anyone who survived a shotgun loaded with buckshot. The few survivors of shotgun wounds I've seen involved birdshot, my friends cousins still carry some in thier body, they unfortunately chose the gang path unlike my friend who didn't.

I read in a gun mag long ago that one of the writers used to correspond with a guy who was a carrer criminal. Why I don't know but the ex con said that he had been shot with most handgun calibers at one time or another and the one he most feared was .45acp!

Most criminal ammo tends to be generic stuff like American eagle and stuff you get off the bargain table at our local gun chain. A cop told my dad crimnal confiscated shotguns are always loaded with cheap birdshot. I always though if involved in criminal activity you may be better off with ball ammo anyways.

Doing drive bys and such, it's obvious you would not be concerned with overpenetration and considering the condition and type of some criminal guns I've seen, ball would be best for reliability.

Gangbangers and such can come up with some odd types of weapons. At the range we did not discriminate, if you had money and behaved yourself we did not care who you were really although it was odd to have cops and these types at the range together! Guns I have seen ranged from a Chinese Makarov, of course loaded with 380acp instead of the correct ammo in 9x18 Mak, A Haskell/High Point 45acp and even a Colt Mustang 380acp.

Blue Line
June 29, 2005, 07:37 AM
I think thier buying "Extreme Shock" ammo :scrutiny: as mentioned in another thread here. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/
Most of the BG I've come across have had the crappiest ammo they could find or steal.

bogie
June 29, 2005, 09:47 AM
Well, a bunch of 'em don't buy the correct ammo to start with... .32s or .380s in .38 specials, etc...

Then there's the folks who walk into Da Gun Store, they want to buy either a magazine full or a cylinder full. Don't need that whole box, you know.

dfaugh
June 29, 2005, 10:11 AM
Only I would also consider supplying them with double charged stuff, and nice steel bullets, painted/plated copper/gold...Surprise!..:what:

MikeIsaj
June 29, 2005, 10:16 AM
On the other hand, there are probably a lot of criminals who would rather their target survive, so they get charged with assault rather than murder.

You don't get it. Criminals aren't going to get caught. They are smarter than us and the corrupt police and courts. They know all the best ways to beat the system. Don't believe me? Just ask any criminal! (They usually tell me all about how brilliant they are while I'm booking them.)

Seriously, I don't think they give it too much thought. The average criminal isn't very smart. Don't mistake clever with intelligent. The ones that get caught usually do so because they were greedy or stupid. Usually a combination of the two. They aren't skilled shooters so they don't appreciate the differences in ammo. They rely on surprize and intimidation more than skill. If that fails them, they are in panic mode because the idea that anyone would not be afraid of them is beyond their grasp. This is when they get dangerous because they don't think from that point forward. In a level gunfight, they usually lose unless they get lucky.

Len
June 29, 2005, 11:41 AM
I think Lone Gunman has it right. [My experience is 15 years as a street/Emergency Center paramedic in Detroit.]

Of the dozens of GSW's [gun shot wounds] we saw, almost all were the result of using cheap, small caliber guns, using FMJ's. And as LG will tell you, it is very easy to spot FMJ's on x-ray, most of the time anyway.

He's also correct in stating that that's what we see most often...you don't usually see the results of lethal, "dead on the scene" cases.

One trend I have noticed...[especially since I'm still in health care, different field, but now dealing almost entirely with head trauma] is a change in the "types" of shootings.

It used to be that you'd see cases come in of gang bangers arriving with a bullet in the leg, butt, belly...and they'd usually survive. Nowdays, the vast majority of GSW's are execution style, many shots in the head, or dozens and dozens of shots everywhere. Here in Detroit, occurences of shootings are down or holding statistically, but lethality is up. Most shooting victims are now known to each other, or BG vs. BG. Why? I'm not sure...although I firmly believe that being a "shall carry" state has made the criminal element think twice about whether their potential "innocent" victims may now be carrying!

But it still holds that the guns/ammo in use by the BG's are usually as cheap as you can get.

Preacherman
June 29, 2005, 11:46 AM
A couple of posters have made the good point that one sees relatively few shooting "survivors" who were hit with .357 Magnum or .45 ACP in handguns, or with a decent shotgun or rifle round. In the prison where I work, many inmates have bullet wound scars, but few of those are from the above-mentioned weapons - most are from 9mm., .38, etc. Lesson - get a bigger gun! :D

cookekdjr
June 29, 2005, 11:54 AM
I cannot tell much (if any?) difference between a FMJ and JHP wound channel.

I have seen many 9mm, 380, 38 spec, 32, 25, and 22 wounds. The majority of these were FMJ's. Of the JHP's, I would guess that less than half expanded. Most were just deformed a little bit. 9mm usually penetrates deep and exits. 380's are more likely to not penetrate deeply enough to exit, even FMJ's.

Lonegunman's experience mirrors mine as a homicide prosecutor. Just yesterday I met with an ME and we went over the slides from a homicide victim's autopsy. I told her I had never seen a hp bullet that expanded when it only contacted human tissue. She said she had seen a perfect mushroom before, but most hp bullets merely deform a little bit. Most, in her experience, do not expand, although they may separate from their jacket the same way fmj's bullets often do.
As for what criminals usually carry, your average Atlanta thug carrys a cheap (and/or stolen) pistol he bought off the street. Usually the gun comes with a full magazine of ammo. Most crooks use cheap fmj ammo, but many do use jhp's. Alot of times it depends on what the gun's righful owner had in the gun when it was stolen... ;)
-David

33-805
June 29, 2005, 12:37 PM
I have a friend, now retired LEO, who tells the story of being rather surprised when someone was relieved of a Colt Python, nickel with 2 1/2" bbl. After the discovery of such a high-tech (for the 70's :rolleyes: ) piece, they opened the cylinder and found one .38 special, LRN and two 38 Long Colt type OLD LRN rounds. That was the total load. Economizing I guess... :p

dolanp
June 29, 2005, 12:43 PM
We have to ban "Walmart special" bullets because that's what the crooks use!

BHPshooter
June 29, 2005, 02:04 PM
I have seen only a handful of people shot in the torso with 45's and 357's. I presume this is either because criminals don't use these calibers, or if they do, the victim dies at the scene before I see them. Of the ones I have seen, I would guesstimate that about half these people lived to make it out of the hospital. These calibers make impressive wounds, penetrate deep, and usually exit...

I have seen many 9mm, 380, 38 spec, 32, 25, and 22 wounds. The majority of these were FMJ's. Of the JHP's, I would guess that less than half expanded. Most were just deformed a little bit. 9mm usually penetrates deep and exits. 380's are more likely to not penetrate deeply enough to exit, even FMJ's.

This is the first caliber "discussion" that I have ever read that has actually shed some light and firsthand knowledge on the issue. It's probably the best argument for bigger caliber that I have yet seen. It still doesn't beat placement, but it is a good argument.

I guess i have no choice but to be getting a 1911 soon. :evil:

Wes

Hawkmoon
June 29, 2005, 02:32 PM
... what percentage of criminals that use guns actually know they should use hollow point/expanding/defense ammo in their gun?
1) How did we arrive at the opening premise that criminals "should" use any kind of ammo in their guns? Or, for that matter, that criminals should use guns at all?

2) Who cares? I would prefer not to be shot by either.

jlwatts3
June 29, 2005, 03:07 PM
Seems to me like FMJs would actually work better in the smaller cal. guns that criminals seems to favor. They would give them enough penetration to actually hit something important.

pete f
June 29, 2005, 07:21 PM
years ago while working in a gun shop.
DUDE! i wanna buy some 32 for my piece.

me Ahhhh what kind of 32 is it?

DUDE! How the F do I know, its a 32!!

me, does it have a cylinder or is it an automatic?

DUDE! It's an ole timey cop gun, it has a round thing you shove the bullets inta!

Me, ahhh ok well that is probably a .32 police positive, Yeah we have ammo for that. I hand him a box of .32 S&W short.

DUDE! .32 short? *** Aint you got something stronger than this, Hey what is that 32 magnum you got?

me, That won't fit in your gun sir,

DUDE *** the gun is a 32, the box says 32 i want it.

(tosses 20 bucks on the counter.)

Me yes sir the customer is always right.....


I always hoped that he would try to pound those 32 mags into the 32 PP cylinder and maybe one would go off.

Hawkmoon
June 29, 2005, 07:45 PM
The owner of my gunshop/range recently told me that he had a pair of gang bangers come in looking for 9mm ammo for a Berreta 92. He handed them the ammo, the "owner" of the gun handed it back to him and asked him to load the "clip" for him.

So the gunshop guy pops the mag, and something doesn't look/feel right. He's turning the gun over in his hand and he sees "8mm" on the barrel.

Yes, this citizen chose to exercise his RKBA by purchasing an 8mm movie prop gun on the street corner -- unbeknownst to himself, of course.

I always wondered if he ever caught up with the dude that sold it to him.

c_yeager
June 30, 2005, 06:40 AM
Seems to me like FMJs would actually work better in the smaller cal. guns that criminals seems to favor. They would give them enough penetration to actually hit something important.

Agreed. If i HAD to carry a .32 or a .25 it would be with FMJ as hot as i could find it. Actually getting to the important bits is a heck of a lot more important than expansion. Especially in light of some of the information on this thread concerning bullet expansion in human tissue.

thorn726
June 30, 2005, 06:59 AM
this is interesting- i think we're forgetting the two groups here=

1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers wh ojsut have stuff around for defense

one of you posted a long thing about not caring who they hit, causing mass confusion, etc- exactly, for group 1, plus the cost/ ease of attainment factor
group 2- is listening to all this gangster rap, and thinks it knows about guns, so might take the time to go hollowpoint, especially since they want to kill each other.

group 3 - its a toss up, who knows.......

and althuogh most criminals do seem to think they ll never get caught, they do also seem to be aware of how much more serious murder is-
and how much harder police will look for them
PLUS- is it only in movies we see all these robberies with UNloaded guns for that reason?
doesnt that happen??

MAURICE
June 30, 2005, 07:14 AM
I work for the Arkansas Dept of Correction. Specifically, a work release center in NW AR, housing non violent offenders. A few are in on poss of drugs and firearms. From what I have learned they use cheap guns with whatever ammunition can be had cheap, scrounged up, or stolen. I should mention that our unit is located within a city jail. When the police department brings in suspects in shootings the guns are always cheap as well. An incident that ocurred a few nights ago resulted in the arrest of one male who got into a gunfight with another (over a woman, of course). The male that was arrested-the other fled the scene- was using a HiPoint 9mm. He got off three rounds before a jam. FMJ bullets, IIRC. The suspect that fled was using a beat up old Mossy or 870, and was using 7 1/2 birdshot.
A shooting about a month ago was done using a Jennings .22

Cheap and disposable is apparently the name of the game.

Edited to add:
Double Naught Spy is correct about bangers not being concerned with bystanders. One of the shooters from the other night was firing in the direction of small children. They were having to scramble to find cover.
He was charged with committing a terroristic act.

fistful
June 30, 2005, 09:36 AM
1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers wh ojsut have stuff around for defense

isn't that really the same group?

No_Brakes23
June 30, 2005, 12:29 PM
Someone mentioned that gangsta rap will often include references to hollow-points.

As a fan of gangsta rap, I have to chuckle at the Hollywood/VideoGame niavity involved in the lyrics. But then again, the basic idea is to create a rhyme, hence the interchangability of magazine with clip. Glock, Tec, (As in Intratec Tec-9), fo-five, (.45ACP) and Beretta, all make for good "cinema" as it were, and they rhyme well, so they get used a lot.

From Notorious B.I.G., this section of Gimme tha Loot is riddled with sillyness:

"...before you get your grave dug
from the main thug
.357 slug
And my ni**a Biggie got an itchy one grip
One in the chamber, 32 in the clip
Motherf**kers better strip
yeah ni**a, peel
before you find out how loose steel feel
from the Beretta
putting all the holes in your sweater
The money getter..."

And on it goes...gangsta rap has lots of references to cheap firearms, "Mercury-tipped bullets" feeding watchdogs gunpowder, Black Talons, laser sights, night vision, etc, etc, etc.

But gangsta rap is a cartoonish reflection of criminal life, not an accurate depiction of it. It is no more an indicator of what criminals do than an issue of Marvel's Punisher.

countertop
June 30, 2005, 12:39 PM
I had an uncle who was a bit of a drug addict (and petty criminal) and died a few years ago. When cleaning out his apartment after he passed away we found a box of .38S&W (which I still have). It was interesting (and solved a lot of problems) cause at one point complained to my dad that his gun wouldn't work. My father told him to bring it to him (without ammo) and so thats what he did. It was a cheap ass .38 spl (the typical Saturday Night Special) and there was nothing wrong with it though. However, knowing he was a heavy user of hard drugs (and not wanting him to be caught in some crime carrying the gun) my dad told him it was busted and that we would dispose of it.

We could never figure out what was wrong until we saw the old box of .38 S&W.

Turns out - best we can tell - he bought the gun and they sold him the wrong kind of .38. HAHAHAHA

What is frightening though is that he had a whole box of it (well, minus 6 rounds) but it was marked for the sale of individual bullets. The hand written sales sticker shows a price of $1.50 a bullet and it carries a NC tax stamp on it. He lived in Northern New Jersey and best as we can tell, never once visited North Carolina.

Its pretty touch to find a .38 S&W gun these days (mostly they are late 1800s break tops) but I keep the ammo around to both remember him and as a curisoity thing.

jason10mm
June 30, 2005, 05:21 PM
From my time at the medical examiner, I can tell you that there are WAY more factors involved in GSW homicide/suicide than caliber. Shot placement is paramount, as suicides routinely kill themselves with .22s to the head. Time to get care is also important, as internal bleeding may not kill you instantly, but will eventually. Obviously, in a self defense shooting, eventually won't cut it.

I have seen the local mexican mafia using hollow point .45acp for executions, but 9mm, .38, and 32 are the most common random shooting calibers. Most rifles are hunting calibers like .270 and 30-30. Shotguns are the same, hunting loads rather than dedicated man-killers, aside from police shootings.

I have seen folks that looked awefully similar to gang members at the range. While they are usually goofing off, trying to impress their buddies/girlfriend, the mere fact that they are there implies that they have some basic skills including reloading, ammo buying, and perhaps even marksmanship.

In a red state like Texas, I suspect that a great many gang members have some sort of military or hunting family background and probably know more than what they learn on TV or the radio. I'm sure a serious gang enforcer would be quite well trained, particularly where it counts, MINDSET!

Tom Servo
June 30, 2005, 05:42 PM
This is why the Makarov is a good "car gun." If somebody steals it, they're going to straight to Wal Mart for ammo.

"Yo dog, I need some (insert gangster lingo) ammo for my piece."

"Sure. Um...says '9x18' on the slide. I think that's 9mm. Try these."

"Homie, this says, '9x19'"

"Yeah, um, makes bigger holes, right?"

"Yo, that's straight. Thanks for helpin' a G out, bro."

Hopefully he'll shoehorn the Parabellum ammo into it, and then try to use it. Natural selection at work. Might be even more ironic if the clerk could get away with selling the doofus some .40 or 10mm for even bigger holes.

(This is loosely based on a conversation I once had with a clerk at Galyan's [now Dick's] where he told me that the .357mag would do a better job through a .357SIG barrel, saying, "it'll make bigger holes.")

fistful
July 1, 2005, 12:09 AM
No Brakes,

I agree with what you had to say. I hope you didn't think that I was implying that rap is a realistic picture of criminal behavior. I would just like to re-emphasize the point of my post. To wit; if rappers have heard of hollow-points, and try to sound like real, dangerous criminals by claiming to use them, that would imply that the community at large (America, urban centers, the hood) is also aware of the obstensible greater lethality of hollow-points.

Cesiumsponge
July 1, 2005, 12:26 AM
I have a friend who listens to hardcore rap and I'm exposed to it occasionally (not by choice :barf: ). A lot of anything weapons-related is just thrown in there for menacing measure. I've heard everything from Tec-9's to "15 teflons in my clip".

People exposed to it might be familiar if the word "hollowpoint" is brought up...perhaps even fathom that they're more dangerous...but they won't likely know how or why. Even this remedial nugget of knowledge can make it that much more dangerous.

No_Brakes23
July 1, 2005, 03:56 AM
if rappers have heard of hollow-points, and try to sound like real, dangerous criminals by claiming to use them, that would imply that the community at large (America, urban centers, the hood) is also aware of the obstensible greater lethality of hollow-points. Good point.

Gunwalker.44
July 1, 2005, 07:08 PM
My guess is that they use whatever ammo is in the "hidden" house gun that the bgs steal when you aren't home. There is no safe hiding place from bgs and children.

NMshooter
July 1, 2005, 11:59 PM
This thread brings back a few memories...

I was amazed at the number of folks who would come in to the shop looking for something that would fit in some rusty old .38 S&W revolver.

Usually when they saw the price on the box they changed their mind. :D

Even LRN .38 S&W is a bit expensive.

Once had a man try to explain to a friend of mine a problem he was having with his revolver. He could not understand why it would not work. After all, as he said, ".22 + .22 = .44, no?" :p

Definitely agree with Mike about the criminal attitude...

countertop
July 2, 2005, 03:54 AM
Following up on NMshooters and my earlier posts, here's a picture of my Colt Commando Spec in .38 Special along with a display of .38 S&W and .38 Spl rounds

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/countertop/100_1677.jpg

No_Brakes23
July 2, 2005, 11:07 PM
Thanks countertop, a pic is really worth a thousand words.

thorn726
July 3, 2005, 06:50 PM
1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers who just have stuff around for defense


isn't that really the same group?

not at aLL- gagnsteres with guns are generally drug dealers, and are shooting at each other over turf, defense, etc.

they are not the same as the guy who gets a gun to do muggings with, and i would really put thieves in a different category also- thieves steal whern you are not there, robbers steal right from you , by force if needed,

dealers/ gangbangers are running a different type of scam

fistful
July 6, 2005, 02:50 AM
1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers who just have stuff around for defense

I get what you're trying to say, but isn't an armed gang-member or "big dealer" usually a criminal who uses guns for crimes? And don't you think a lot of gang members are committing a lot of the crimes that would be in class 1?

thorn726
July 6, 2005, 04:04 AM
don't you think a lot of gang members are committing a lot of the crimes that would be in class 1?

not really. like for example- the gangs in SF- these guys are shooting at each other with AKs, over drug turf. i really doubt they are holding many people up with AKs. **there would be the exception of robbing other dealers, but then both are prepared for arms, might be concerned enough to have hollows etc if applicable
gangs are more about drug selling than anything else, it's not like the mob with robberies and stuff- maily because they are in such poor hoods, the only thing worth doing is drugs- no one is buying anything else.

i really dont think too many armed robbers last more than a few crimes either.
it is a lot harder to get away with, a lot harder to tell yourself it is OK.
(for some reason sellnig crack is not bad, they asked for it right?) duh.
but that is the logic i see on the street.

where the gang types have more time to gather ammo etc.
and more money-
armed robbers are more often than not serious addicts who are gonna spend most of that money on drugs right away- which is also the reason majority of junkies use things like clubs and knives- if they had a gun they already traded it for drugs.

jptsr1
July 11, 2005, 04:25 PM
I wouldnít think there would be any difference percentage-wise of criminals and the general public using a particular round. I donít pretend to be any sort of authority when it comes to the criminal mind but I donít think being a criminal and being ignorant are necessarily positively correlated. I guess if we are talking about some crack-head robbing old ladies after dark with a zip gun and one bullet I could see your point. I would also submit that criminals donít have any restrictions on what they carry so they might have stuff superior (in terms of ballistics) to what I might be able to buy off the shelf (being the law abiding citizen I am).

J.

Biker
July 11, 2005, 04:34 PM
Most of the scooter tramps I've ridden with (clubbed up and otherwise) are fairly gun-savy. Many are Vets. They carry whether legal or not. I did before Idaho passed it's "Shall Issue" laws-still do if I'm in a state that won't allow it. Then again, I avoid these places if feasable, all things considered.. I guess that makes us criminals.
Biker

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