Is it overreacting to buy American...


PDA






patentmike
June 29, 2005, 05:08 PM
..really American? Sure, some nice guns are assembled here by foreign companies. But where does the profit go? Back to the fatherland where it is not only cool to hate America, but they send money to the Iraqi insurgents.

http://www.antiimperialista.com/free-iraq/view.shtml?category=44&id=1067790764&keyword

another link

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050623/23euroleft.htm?track=rss

If you enjoyed reading about "Is it overreacting to buy American..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
sumpnz
June 29, 2005, 05:18 PM
:scrutiny: :rolleyes: Yeahhh, uh huh.

So I'm a traitor for buying a second hand CZ rifle and a couple of mil-surps (Swede and Turk mausers) sold to us by their respective governments?

You might want to find a source that refers for W as something other than "emperor" and that does not refer to Iraq becoming the next Vietnam. Neither such references lend any credence to the source.

Cesiumsponge
June 29, 2005, 05:19 PM
It's a nice patriotic thought to purchase "only American" but it's simply not possible to do so in today's world, or guarantee what you buy is 100% made in the US of A and that all profit made on that product will stay within our borders.

Not all American products are 100% made in America nowadays (especially true of automobiles, which also label what %age of parts come from where). I've had foreign products break on me and American products break on me. I use what works. With that said, if two items are priced comparably and one is US and the other foreign, it could go either way.

With that said, I'm pacified and happy my Bushmaster is made in the USA. I even get a sense of pride. But if Bushmaster started churning out crap, I wouldn't have a problem abandoning it altogether and going to another dependable brand, be it foreign or domestic.

Drizzt
June 29, 2005, 05:28 PM
Hey, some of those ex-Eastern Bloc countries are now some of the best friends we have on the continent. I know that I, for one, stopped making Polish jokes after hearing about the performance of the Polish Spec Ops personnel in Iraq. Several other countries in that area have also made a point of standing beside us.

patentmike
June 29, 2005, 05:58 PM
Now, who called you a traitor? And what would mil-surps have to do with anythingt?

All I know about the source is right there. Maybe someone else could shed some light on it. This is a discussion board right? F-o-r-u-m. Look it up.

I just happen to think that guns are different from cars or cheese. If foreign gun companies dominate the market while we sleep, "gun control" becomes "import control" and "regulation of foreign-owned companies".

R.H. Lee
June 29, 2005, 06:14 PM
Europe's not the problem. China is the problem. They already have some 600 billion of our dollars and are increasing that amount some 50-100 billion per year (trade deficit). What do they do with that money? They buy American, of course. American companies, American real estate, American debt (treasury notes).

Soon we will be OWNED by China, so keep shopping Walmart.

odysseus
June 29, 2005, 06:17 PM
Yes... and now a Unocal buyout bid using equity derived from "loans" at interest rates unavailable to anyone else from the Chinese Government, to a company 70% owned by the Chinese Government. Sounds real free-market to me, but that's a non P.C. opinion I guess...

BTW, I don't shop at Walmart.

sumpnz
June 29, 2005, 06:20 PM
Umm, well you kinda implyed in your post, with the link, that buying European made guns was the equivalent of supporting the terrorists in Iraq. Since the mil-surps came from Europe (the respective govt sold their surplus guns to distributers here), that would have about the same effect (according that drivel of an article) as buying a Tikka, CZ, or other European made guns.If foreign gun companies dominate the market while we sleep, "gun control" becomes "import control" and "regulation of foreign-owned companies". #1 - We'd most likely have significant import restriction (well, more than we already do) long before that would become a way to shut off our only source of new guns. #2 - Foreign companies just won't get the kind of following Springfield, Winchester, Remington, Bushmaster, etc have. Those companies are making guns of equal or better quality than most European manufacturers within their given market segment. Some EU gun companies have their own following (I'm partial to CZ rifles, but I'd also like to have Winchester M70's and Ruger #1B's) but their market share just ain't there right now (except for Glock and to a lesser extent Sig-Sauer in the Pistol market).

Besides, I figure the best way to motivate American gun (or car) companies to produce better value goods is to only buy from them when they are the best value. Blindly buying "American" even though it may be more expensive (long term) and lower quality does nothing to convice them they need to do a better job.

I'll also second Drizzt's comment.

sumpnz
June 29, 2005, 06:24 PM
Soon we will be OWNED by China Riley - 20 years ago they were saying the same thing about the Japanese. I'm not holding my breath.

R.H. Lee
June 29, 2005, 06:33 PM
Actually, the Japanese are sitting on some $1 trillion American dollars. They are benign compared to China; totally different culture. Remember, China is hardcore communist, Japan is anything but.

odysseus
June 29, 2005, 06:33 PM
Riley - 20 years ago they were saying the same thing about the Japanese. I'm not holding my breath.

Very true. I think saying "we will be owned" is being largess on the topic. However we could be in for quite an economic fight for years to come with increasing geopolitical tensions. Also their isn't a comparison with what Japan was in the 80's and what China is to us in the 2000's.

ksnecktieman
June 29, 2005, 06:37 PM
If you do not buy the best product you can for the least amount of money you can the products will not improve,, American companies that sell less than perfect products should be treated the same as foreign companies that do the same. You will get what you pay for, if you are lucky.

The capitalist system works, if you think waving a flag makes a difference maybe you should check Wall Street for who owns stock in each company, before you buy. It does not matter to me if hillbilly bubba makes gidgets in korea, or chang su makes them in podunk missouri, I want the best one I can buy for the least amount of money.

AND, YES, I think that is patriotic, because I think this country can respond, and produce the best for the least, when they decide they have to to sell them.

R.H. Lee
June 29, 2005, 06:42 PM
I can see who the Walmart shoppers are..................

China is not engaged in 'capitalism'. It is engaged in producing cheap products with slave labor; there is no way Americans can 'compete' with that. We won't work for .20 cents an hour with the threat of a bullet in the head if we make trouble.

The reason there is a trade imbalance is because some of us are hooked on that cheap crap like crack addicts.

charlesb_la
June 29, 2005, 06:44 PM
Soon we will be OWNED by China, so keep shopping Walmart.



From Walmartfacts.com (http://www.walmartfacts.com/keytopics/merchandising.aspx#a53)

Wal-Mart estimates that we purchased about $18 billion from China last year -- about $9 billion imported from direct sources and about $9 billion from indirect sources -- compared to $150 billion spent last year with all kinds of suppliers in the U.S.


Yeah it's all Walmart's fault
:rolleyes:

Lone_Gunman
June 29, 2005, 08:59 PM
It would be interesting to know how much profit made off the $18 billion of goods bought from China, compared to the $150 billion from US suppliers.

My suspicion is they make more money from selling the Chinese goods, than from selling US made goods.

odysseus
June 29, 2005, 09:01 PM
Yeah it's all Walmart's fault

That's a sensitive subject! One that doesn't accept little jabs... I simply don't like MEGA stores. I avoid them when possible.

Well I am not sure of those stats either. The US suppliers often are also dealing directly with Chinese manufacturers. I dont' have the source, but arond Christmas last year a study documented a high (maybe 90%?) of Walmart products are not US. Suffice to say that this is not just Walmart's issue - but you see they have lobbied Washington strong and hard with big $$$ anything preventing the ease and price they get for these materials, so yes - they are going to recieve jabs.

Of course the trade imbalance and us tolerating predatory tactics from a non-freemarket economy against US industries is a hard issue to address. Bottomline like Riley says, people can't survive US side on the wages and conditions the Baron's of Chinese industry supply the hand labor there. Perhaps this is something we all accept and buy products without thought. I know i have many China made goods in my place, becuase I had no alternative that made sense...

lunaslide
June 29, 2005, 09:05 PM
Honestly, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Your post doesn't seem to have much to do with the link you provided. Anyway...

The market now is far more complex and interconnected than it ever was in the past. Making clearly defined boundries about what a foreign company is versus what a domestic company is doesn't make much sense anymore. There are plenty of examples of companies like Toyota and Sigarms that have developed themselves domestically as American businesses that employ American workers, pay taxes to the States they do business in and make our economy stronger.

Instead of simply "buying American" these days, I'm more concerned with supporting freedom and free markets with my dollars, like investing in companies that are taking the risk to invest in Afganistan and Iraq, or purchasing products from companies that sell products made in countries that support human rights and free markets (such as Cambodia and it's textile industry). I think these things are more important in the long run than being economically isolationist. Supporting free trade around the world helps the societies that participate in it raise themselves to higher standards of living. Thriving economies have no room for tight-fisted, dicatorial rule or luddite notions of theocratic governments like Iran. As the level of trade rises, societies throw off the shackes of government and make way for greater personal freedoms. This is why China is facing in the very near term a massive upheaval of public sentiment from the free marketeers on the coast who want the government to keep it's hands off the booming business and from the poor peasantry of the interior who want to be able to participate in the economic boom. Doing brisk business with China may be benefitting the ruling party in the short term, but in the long term it will undermine their power and bring about changes that mere military confrontation could never make happen.

Free trade tends to make the world freer in more than just economic ways. The irony of capitalism is that it brings about what communism never managed to accomplish; raising the standard of living for everyone (yes, even the poor). The irony of communism is that it does exactly the opposite of what it claims to do, it drains the resources out of a society and degrades the quality of life for the vast majority of people under it's policies.

R.H. Lee
June 29, 2005, 09:08 PM
Wal-Mart estimates that we purchased about $18 billion from China last year -- about $9 billion imported from direct sources and about $9 billion from indirect sources -- compared to $150 billion spent last year with all kinds of suppliers in the U.S.
That's misleading. Take Black & Decker, for example. A 'supplier in the U.S.', but all its products are made in China. Bet B&D is included in the $150 billion figure.

Not slamming Walmart in particular, just using them as a recognizable example. Costco would be another major importer of Chinese products.

Cesiumsponge
June 29, 2005, 09:26 PM
I hate Black & Decker. I burnt out two of their jigsaws and went through a pack of their cheap blades. I gave up and went with a Milwaukee :D

In general, if a domestic product costs more than a comparable foreign source, it damn well better last/work/perform better.

Unless we're all millionaires with no financial worries and it is an idealistic world, we could afford the extra 25% (or whatever the average above cost of a foreign comparable product) premium for US made products over a foreign counterpart. However, speaking for myself, I am not financially well off yet and therefore I cannot always justify the (usual) premium for a US product in every consumer decision.

I try to get the most bang for our buck. Granted, I will buy US-made if it saves me in the long run or if it is an investment(ie US made power tools in my experience don't break down like the cheapos I managed to burn up; I depend on them to get me a paycheck) but if I need some oddball object that doesn't get much use like a set of micro-screwdrivers for repairing eyeglasses or a set of punches that I might use once a year to disassemble a firearm, I'll buy a set of them at the dollar store and not pay a premium for a set of Starretts.

charlesb_la
June 29, 2005, 09:28 PM
My point is that blaming Walmart or Costco or any other retailer for the trade imbalance is like blaming guns for gun violence. The problem is the people(shoppers). They vote with their wallet and Walmart and every other retailer gives them what they want. I just get sick and tired of Walmart always being the one singled out. What about BestBuy? Are their any electronics still being produced in the US?

That's misleading. Take Black & Decker, for example. A 'supplier in the U.S.', but all its products are made in China. Bet B&D is included in the $150 billion figure.

Why don't you ask them and see....

http://www.walmartfacts.com/talkwithus/


Don't get me wrong I buy American whenever I can, I just don't blame the retailers for the growing lack of choice. It's our fellow countrymen and our "gubbermint" that are the problem.

auschip
June 29, 2005, 10:11 PM
I fail to see what one person (based in Austria) trying to start a fund to help terrorists, has to do with purchasing products made in European (or more specifically Non-American) countries.

Following that logic, I shouldn't use any US internet company, because this misguided person has registered an internet address with a US based hosting company.

Selfdfenz
June 29, 2005, 10:13 PM
Is it overreacting to buy American...

Well, no.

When I buy a CZ product I help keep the light on in the home of a European family or person that may still think the US is ok.

>>BUT<< I also help keep the lights on in a home in Kansas City of certain people I think pretty highly of.

Yeah. I give it some thought.

S-

carebear
June 29, 2005, 10:32 PM
Let the Chinese corporations buy what they want. Corporations are legally private individuals. We'll just "eminent domain" the companies back later.

For the "public good" of course. :rolleyes:

Chris Rhines
June 29, 2005, 10:40 PM
I greatly prefer to buy non-American products, and do so whenever given the opportunity. I can get better quality for less money by purchasing from nations whose workforces aren't saddled with crippling neosocialist enviromental regulations and labor union thugs.

- Chris

Larry Ashcraft
June 29, 2005, 10:47 PM
I just don't blame the retailers for the growing lack of choice.
Indeed.

I'm in the retail awards business (read: trophies). Fifteen years ago the only trophy parts made outside the US were some hardware items (Japan) and some high-end copies of American parts (Japan).

Now, I am hard-pressed to buy an American made trophy part (and I do try).

Hint: if you want an American made trophy, specify to your dealer that the trophy be made from parts made by Plastic Dress Up Company only. They are the last bastions of American made parts. www.pdu.com

In other words, as said above, DON'T BLAME THE RETAILERS. We don't have much choice. PDU doesn't make everything, and the customer doesn't usually want to pay the price difference.

magsnubby
June 29, 2005, 11:22 PM
Every gun shop i frequent is owned by an American. Any time i buy any item from them, foreign or domestic, i am supporting an American business. Sure maybe some of the money i spend in their shops finds it's way overseas but i'm helping Americans feed their families.

I guess i could buy only American guns and see if that helps keep my favorite gun shop in business.

Standing Wolf
June 29, 2005, 11:38 PM
Pity Honda doesn't make firearms.

Fluffster
June 29, 2005, 11:45 PM
Actually, the Japanese are sitting on some $1 trillion American dollars. They are benign compared to China; totally different culture. Remember, China is hardcore communist, Japan is anything but.

Let's not forget that Japan knows exactly how painful it is to pick a fight with America.

Cesiumsponge
June 30, 2005, 12:17 AM
Pity Honda doesn't make firearms.

Honda makes trucks now though :what: along with everyone else now it seems.

I'm in search of a new truck but I don't think I'd consider new contenders in the truck scene.

cracked butt
June 30, 2005, 01:25 AM
I gave up and went with a Milwaukee
Which if it wasn't made in Taiwan, it will be soon. :banghead:

At least Taiwan isn't China (yet).

Khaotic
June 30, 2005, 04:02 AM
I think a lot of the problem with "Buy American" has been US manufacturers abuse of it - thinking they can create an overpriced product of shoddy quality and slap "American Made" on it and hope to sell it while laughing up their sleeves.

I specifically exempt firearms from that comment mind you, as I have never seen (i'm sure there are, but i've not seen any) an american-made firearm of grossly inferior quality - but for many other things, that comment holds true.

You think Honda making guns would be bad... if Kalishnikov ever designed a car, the US Auto industry would fall off the earth! :rolleyes:

Basically most folk will pay a couple extra bucks for something made here, sure, but if it's completely inferior to a lower priced foreign product, they probably won't buy american.

-K

If you enjoyed reading about "Is it overreacting to buy American..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!