FBI incident in Miami ??


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pfgrone
June 30, 2005, 08:30 AM
Not sure if this is the proper forum for this. If not, please suggest a better forum.
During the last month or so, I've been researching small handguns and ballistics. I have seen several references to a "shootout" or "incident" relating to the FBI and to Miami. These references always assume that everyone knows what is meant. I don't, though. Can anyone BRIEFLY explain this reference or provide a link to an explanation?
Thanks, Paul G.

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Tim Burke
June 30, 2005, 08:33 AM
The "Miami Massacre", April 11, 1986.
Click here. (http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html)

thatguy
June 30, 2005, 10:17 AM
Short version: Two hardened criminals who weren't impressed by badges. One had a Ruger Mini 14. The FBI agents were caught off-guard by the explosive response to their arrest attempt, and I think two were killed and four were wounded, one extremely severely. Much talk about the 9MM because the perp with the Ruger took a round early in the fight but didn't go down. Anti-9MM people say caliber failure, but a larger bullets probably wouldn't have made any difference. Both bad guys were eventually killed but at a terrible price to the FBI. Mostly a lack of mental preparedness on the part of FBI agents.

This incident basically proved that when a man with a rifle fights men with handguns the men with handguns have a serious problem.

Travis McGee
June 30, 2005, 10:32 AM
The Miami shootout was a watershed event in FBI history, tactical-wise. After that, revolvers were out, subguns were in and so on. The FBI blew it on many many levels in this case, and learned a lot of hard lessons which are now covered in FBI training and doctrine. There are a lot of lessons for any gunnie civilian as well about gun fights around cars.

Boats
June 30, 2005, 10:37 AM
That's the incident where the FBI concludes "9mm bad." :rolleyes:

Of course taking pistols to a rifle fight that started with a botched felony stop during which key FBI participants lost weapons or eyeglasses, had little at all to do with the outcome as did one 9mm Silvertip that didn't act like a death ray. :scrutiny:

1911 guy
June 30, 2005, 11:19 AM
Although I'm a .45 acp fan, I agree that taking a pistol into engagement with a rifle isn't my first choice no matter what caliber. When you look purely at delivered energy, even the old 30-30 gives more than a full house .44 mag.

sumpnz
June 30, 2005, 05:59 PM
Much talk about the 9MM because the perp with the Ruger took a round early in the fight but didn't go down. It wasn't a 9mm. It was a .38 special from a short barrel. It penetrated deep enough to puncture the heart. Perp bled out, but not fast enough to stop the fight.

jlwatts3
June 30, 2005, 06:17 PM
The link says the heart shot was a 115g Silvertip 9mm, fired by Dove from a S&W 459.

sumpnz
June 30, 2005, 08:14 PM
That's right. It was one of the other agents that finished them with a .38 snubbie IIRC. Got the guns mixed up.

Dr.Rob
June 30, 2005, 08:53 PM
And that silvertip went in at the elbow, through the guys arm for six inches, then into his torso... The silvertip is a deadly round with a lot of penetration. The bullet didn't hit him 'clean.'

Thus the argument for a deeper penetrating heavier bullets

czhen
June 30, 2005, 08:54 PM
Hy guys
Try this link for a complete report
www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Czhen
Fl

Mannlicher
June 30, 2005, 09:46 PM
My wife's brother was there. FBI. There is a lot more stuff, background, aftermath, and consequences on the "Suniland shootout" than is available to the casual reader.

Futuristic
July 1, 2005, 12:26 AM
If you have contacts in a LE agency they may still be able to get a copy of the FBI's video that rehashes this encounter/poochscrew. I had a Sheriff's Office firearms trainer get me the tape around 1992 and I was amazed. Both at all the mistakes that were made and at the sheer scrotal fortitude of the guys who survived. The tape has a good reenactment and commentary from the survivors, as well as an overview of what could have been done differently. It's well worth tracking down a copy. The interviews done well after the fact show the impact this event had on these guys was huge, lifelong.

However, avoid the TV Movie of the week that was made about this. Useless.

Futuristic

RevDisk
July 1, 2005, 01:01 AM
Lot of tactical mistakes. Weapon choices was only one of them, and I don't think the most important.

Platt especially was something completely out of the average cop's league. Most cops, even federal ones, are not prepared for a perp with a high degree of training, motivation and mental aptitude. Even if the feds had subguns, they likely still would have taken relatively heavy casualties.

cookhj
July 1, 2005, 08:16 AM
i got to meet the gentleman who survived after being shot a few times...the one that finished the BG's off. he talked to our unit before we deployed about combat mindset. it was a good speech; nice and informal. took him about 2 hours to describe the encounter which lasted, what, like 5 minutes. puts those things into prospective and makes you think, "am i ready for something like this?"

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