SVT40 or M1 Garand


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Kalashnikov
June 30, 2005, 12:57 PM
The M16/AK discussion on this board got me thinking. What about the SVT and the M1? IMO, that is a much closer cometition since both are highly reliable, accurate, and powerful. Both were highly regarded by those who used them. I am wondering which one you guys think is better. I know im treading in dangerous waters by saying that the immoratl M1 Garand may not be the best, but I feel that the SVT is just as capable as the Garand in every respect, and better in terms of reloading.

*flame suit on*

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TMM
June 30, 2005, 01:06 PM
1) is the SVT .30-06?
2)the SVT seems a bit less unavilible than the garand. actually, after a quick look, there is only one availible on gunsamerica, and none on gunbroker. this could be a major plus...
3)what is the mag cap and weight of the SVT, and i understand it runs off stick mags?

~TMM

BamBam-31
June 30, 2005, 02:19 PM
I had an SVT40. Badly pitted barrel, like most of them, so I sold it. It struck me as being more fragile than the M1. IIRC, I think I read somewhere that the SVT40 was prohibitively expensive to produce as well.

Regarding loading, the SVT40 has a 10 round mag, loaded with stripper clips. You can top off with it, but reloading an M1 with enblocs is faster (for me, at least).

M1's got better sights, better trigger. Makes a difference.

Hmm. If I'm going into battle, I'd like the M1 better. However, if I came across another SVT40 with a decent barrel, I'm jumping all over it.

Sunray
June 30, 2005, 02:42 PM
"...better in terms of reloading..." I'll bite. What makes you say that? There's nothing remotely difficult involved in reloading .30-06.
"...is the SVT .30-06?..." Nope. 7.62 x 54R.

MrTuffPaws
June 30, 2005, 02:49 PM
1) is the SVT .30-06?

No, it is 7.62x54r. Pretty close to the 30.06

2)the SVT seems a bit less unavilible than the garand. actually, after a quick look, there is only one availible on gunsamerica, and none on gunbroker. this could be a major plus...

Try much more unabilible. For some reason, they just don't import them any more.

3)what is the mag cap and weight of the SVT, and i understand it runs off stick mags?

10 round removable mag, but they designed it to load from stripper clips. You can load the mags seperatly, but they run $80+ each, if you can find them at all. The gun weighs around 9 pounds, but would be heavier if they did not use some form of soft pine for the stock.

Ian
June 30, 2005, 03:19 PM
The one SVT I have fired was not a happy gun. It had seriouos reliability issues. While that may not be the norm for mint SVTs, I suspect most of the ones you'll find for sale are in pretty rough shape. I would rather have an M1 simply because parts are readily available and there's lots of know-how floating around regarding fixing them, accurizing them, and reloading for them.

KaceCoyote
June 30, 2005, 03:44 PM
I've fired 3 SVTs, none of them were in terribly good condition. Let me fire one in top form, and then a Garand right after.

TMM
June 30, 2005, 04:40 PM
from the looks of it, the M1 Garand is much better...

LeonCarr
June 30, 2005, 04:53 PM
The SVT 40 was referred to as "The Russian Garand", and in many photos it was scoped and used as a sniper rifle. A WWII Re-Enactor buddy of mine has one in excellent condition, and it shoots about the same as a Garand as far as handling and recoil goes. He said that they also made a version of that rifle that was full auto :).

geojap
June 30, 2005, 04:54 PM
With all due respect, this should not take much time to reach a definitive conclusion. M1 Garand all the way. It is the best rifle ever made, in my opinion. Definitely the greatest battle rifle ever built. Rugged, accurate, reliable and made the firepower of one US GI equal to that of three German/Japanese rtiflemen.

Father Knows Best
June 30, 2005, 05:04 PM
Sunray wrote:"...better in terms of reloading..." I'll bite. What makes you say that? There's nothing remotely difficult involved in reloading .30-06.

I think what he meant was not that the Russian cartridge was easier to reload than .30-'06. Instead, he was referring to the fact that the SVT-40's detachable mag could easily be topped off via stripper clips, whereas the Garand can only be loaded 8 rounds at a time thanks to its en bloc clip design. I agree that the en bloc clip system is faster, but the inability to top off the mag can be a disadvantage. Plenty of evidence for this can be seen in the fact that no major battle rifle since the Garand has used an en bloc clip.

FWIW, my understanding is that the SVT-40 was a fine rifle. Most of its bad reputation comes from the fact that most of them in this country are in poor condition, and from an inherent bias in favor of the home-grown M1. The SVT-40's basic design is excellent, and it does have some clear advantages over the M1 (detachable mag that can be recharged with stripper clips being one, the adjustable gas system being another).

Cosmoline
June 30, 2005, 05:36 PM
I have my own set of issues with the Garand, esp. the so-so accuracy of unaltered examples. But the SVT-40 was not as good as the Garand. It is a bit fragile for the power of the cartridge, and I suspect 200 grain Wolf loads would not be good for it at all. The SVD and PSL 54R semiautos from the cold war era were superior to the SVT-40.

thereisnospoon
June 30, 2005, 05:46 PM
I can not speak for the Garand as I have never owned one (I know, I know). However, I have owned several SVT40s and only sold them when I really needed the money for something else entirely, never for another gun.

The SVT was accurate enough, powerful and fun as heck!

AZ Jeff
June 30, 2005, 05:48 PM
I have my own set of issues with the Garand, esp. the so-so accuracy of unaltered examples.
When compared to it's contemporaries, (or most newer military rifles), the M1 is as good or better than most.

The only military rifle of general issue that really stands out above the others in accuracy (in as issued condition) is the AR-15/M16 series.

Swampy
July 1, 2005, 09:32 AM
I'll be the first to admit that I've never owned an SVT-40..... but too many reports of relatively delicate construction (compared to the M1) and wartime reliability issues have never gone towards making me excited about getting one.

The M1 on the other hand.....

GREAT sights and trigger. Good accuracy for a combat rifle. Solid design with near enough 100% reliability under all conditions.

Add to this that it is the absolute FASTEST to reload battle rifle extant and and you have quite a package.

Whats not to like???

BTW, the issue of not being able to top off the M1's magazine never seemed to be too much of an issue to the GI's and Marines who carried it. If you want the mag full... just pull the trigger till it goes "PING", then reload. The process will be complete before the Kraut or Jap or Chink on the other side of the road can even think about doing anything about it.

Just my 2 bits on the issue...

Swampy

Garands forever

Aluminum makes FINE cookware
Plastic is GREAT if you want to make Barbie dolls
WOOD and STEEL are the only two materials acceptable for a battle rifle

Swampy
July 1, 2005, 09:37 AM
I'll be the first to admit that I've never owned an SVT-40..... but too many reports of relatively delicate construction (compared to the M1) and wartime reliability issues have never gone towards making me excited about getting one.

The M1 on the other hand.....

GREAT sights and trigger. Good accuracy for a combat rifle. Solid design with near enough 100% reliability under all conditions.

Add to this that it is the absolute FASTEST to reload battle rifle extant and and you have quite a package.

Whats not to like???

BTW, the issue of not being able to top off the M1's magazine never seemed to be too much of an issue to the GI's and Marines who carried it. If you want the mag full... just pull the trigger till it goes "PING", then reload. The process will be complete before the Kraut or Jap or Chink on the other side of the road can even think about doing anything about it.

Just my 2 bits on the issue...

Swampy

Garands forever

Aluminum makes FINE cookware
Plastic is GREAT if you want to make Barbie dolls
WOOD and STEEL are the only two materials acceptable for a battle rifle

Langenator
July 1, 2005, 09:39 AM
To the best of my understanding, the SVT-40 only hand reliability issues in the hands of Soviet troops, mainly because they didn't take care of them.

Captured examples used by the Germans and the Finns apparently did not have these issues. German troops apparently thought quite highly of it.

Father Knows Best
July 1, 2005, 10:55 AM
Langenator has a good point. The Finns and Germans both highly prized the SVT-40, and there are many examples of captured SVT-40s being carried back into combat by troops from those countries.

I'm not one to argue that the SVT-40 is "better" than the Garand. I will argue that it is not far behind the Garand.

MAUSER88
July 1, 2005, 12:58 PM
I've owned and both. M1 Garand wins hands down.

Langenator
July 1, 2005, 07:14 PM
Now, if the Garand had used the round John Garand originally intended (a .276, IIRC) and had put a box magazine (a la the BM 59) on the M1, this wouldn't even be a contest. Or even just the box mag.

Father Knows Best
July 1, 2005, 07:25 PM
I was in my local gun shop today and saw something interesting. It was a rifle that looked an awful lot like an SVT-40, but with a few differences. The handguard was different from the ones I'd seen before (solid steel, not ventilated). It had a bayonet that folded back along the side. The safety also worked different -- it rotated forward much like a Garand's. I couldn't make much sense of the markings on it. The receiver and stock had the same lines as an SVT-40, and it had a detachable box magazine that looked to be about 10 round capacity.

The shop owner said it was Czech, and chambered for "some odd rimmed cartridge." When I mentioned that it looked like an SVT-40, he said he thought it was a Czech copy of the SVT-40.

Anyone know what it might have been? He said he took it in on trade, and wanted $400 for it.

Rebar
July 2, 2005, 02:05 AM
There's a reason why there was no SVT41 or SVT42, and why the soviets stopped production of the rifle in favor of the Mosin-Nagant. It was not reliable under typical combat conditions, at least the way the soviets operated. The Germans took it, modified it, and produced the K43, which was a better weapon, but still not on the same level as the Garand.

armoredman
July 2, 2005, 11:03 AM
SVT 40 was a neat rifle, but the cartridge was too powerful for it. The SKS-45 was already making waves at the very end of the war, and would be the issue rifle breifly until the all new AK47 would sweep the scene, (and the world). The SVT40 would be pushed to the wayside after a very brief career in the military, and relagated to second line status. Nice rifles, but hard to find, repro mags don't work right, (from what I have heard), and jamming issues hapen all the time. If I had to choose, even with my like for 7.62x54R, I would choose the M1. Personally, I would LOVE a Romak 3 with 16" tube and no scope/iron sights for a battle rifle, if I could find 20 round mags for it....something about a cartridge good enough to serve for a 120 years....still going....

Kalashnikov
July 2, 2005, 12:59 PM
Well this is certainly and intersting, if one sided, discussion. IMO, I would be hapy with either rifle and would take either if my life depended on it. I feel the SVT40 deserved abetter fate than it recived however. I have fired one and it is a truly wonderful rifle, though it does need a heavier wood for the stock. I also like the idea of reloading with either stirpper clips OR a detachable magazine.

Now the M1 Garand I have also shot and beleive me, I do love the rifle. I plan on getting on around chrsitmas time. Every time I hear a PING! I think of the Garand. Like I said, either rifle I would trust my life with (If they're good rifles odviously) and I plan on owning both when I can.

Gewehr98
July 2, 2005, 01:32 PM
Did the rifle look like this one? (Side-folding bayonet, 10-round box magazine, Garand-style safety)

http://mauser98.com/vz52-3.jpg

If so, it's a Czech VZ-52, chambered in either 7.62x45, or later in 7.62x39. Neither are rimmed cartridges, although the earlier round is quite obscure.

Rebar, your history is missing a thing or two. Namely, the Mauser G-41 and Walther G-41(W), which was an autoloader based on the Bang system of muzzle-gas capture. Refinement of those designs, including the incorporation of the Soviet SVT-40's gas system, led to the introduction of the later G-43 and K-43 rifles.

Father Knows Best
July 2, 2005, 04:43 PM
Gewehr98 -- THAT'S IT! I know it wasn't chambered in 7.62x39, so it must have been that other cartridge.

So are those decent rifles? Was I correct in assuming it is based on the SVT 40?

Also, what's a typical price for one in good surplus condition?

slzy
July 2, 2005, 10:57 PM
the svt would have fared better if they had had non-corrosive ammo. they gave better service in southern sectors where you could work on them bare handed.

Gewehr98
July 2, 2005, 10:58 PM
They stopped importing them quite some time ago. Ammo has all but dried up for the 7.62x45 versions. Those who snagged a 7.62x39 version are in considerably better shape.

A couple places like Buffalo Arms and myself offer reloadable 7.62x45 brass, so all is not futile. It's a soft-shooting gun, heavy for the chambering, and quite a lot of fun. If you field strip one, you can tell right away that the rifle is a combination of many different concepts, from the M1 Garand trigger group to the annular ring gas system, to the side-folding bayonet. A little bit of info here:

http://mauser98.com/vz52.html


If you get a chance to inspect that VZ-52, take a good hard look at the bore. If it's clean and shiny, then it's probably worthwhile to grab, price allowing. If it looks like 20 miles of bad sewer pipe, leave it alone. (All of the military issue ammo was corrosive)

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