Florida Security Allowed to Pack 9mm ???


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David
July 1, 2005, 01:13 AM
According to this article, starting on July 1, 2005, Florida Security Officers will be allowed to carry 9mm handguns instead of .38 wheelguns.

I think this is an excellent idea so a security officer can choose what type of weapon they would like to carry -- either a .38 revolver or a 9mm semiauto.

A statement in this article I believe is very wrong -- calling a .38 revolver a "dinosaur."

In trained hands, the .38 is quite an effective defensive weapon (especially with available speedloaders).

Are there any other states which still restrict security officers to revolvers only?

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/27/State/Florida_security_offi.shtml

Florida security officers can soon upgrade firepower
Thanks to a Pinellas officer, guards will be able to use semiautomatic handguns.

By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2005

Security officer Will Holcomb has heard them all: keychain cop, flashlight cop, rent-a-cop. He's seen the cartoons of the old-timer in the gatehouse either watching TV or snoozing.

But the realities of his job, he says, are vastly different. While patrolling a subsidized housing complex in Clearwater, Holcomb has encountered men beating their wives, teens shooting heroin in stairwells, car thefts.

A few years ago when he was working at a shopping center in St. Petersburg, a teenager pulled a gun on him.

In times fraught with such risks, Holcomb, 45, wonders why he carries a dinosaur on his hip - a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver with a wood grip.

"There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic."

Now, after Holcomb's intensive lobbying effort, thousands of security officers in Florida, from the guards at supermarkets and jewelry stores to those at interstate rest stops, soon can trade in their revolvers for semiautomatic handguns.

Lawmakers overwhelmingly approved a bill this spring supporting the move and Gov. Jeb Bush signed it into law on Thursday. It goes into effect July 1.

"Since armed security officers face the same threats as public law enforcement officers," Holcomb said, "shouldn't they be allowed modern weapons?"

Critics question whether better firepower is necessary. "The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."

Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster. Continuity is another cited justification. Many security officers enter the field from the military, where they are trained to use semiautomatics, such as a 9mm.

Revolvers, Holcomb said, are "a whole different skill set. Especially the reloading where you have to swing the cylinder out the revolver, eject the casings, put the new ones in, and swing the cylinder back into place and them come back up on target."

Florida has about 100,000 security officers - about twice as many as sworn law enforcement officers - and of those 17,139 are licensed to carry a weapon. Some already have semiautomatics, but they had to apply for a waiver with the state. Holcomb's proposal eliminates the need for waivers.

Any security officer with a Class G license, which allows them to carry a weapon, could use a semiautomatic provided their employer agrees and they go through 28 hours of training.

Though promoted as a way to modernize security outfits, backers also acknowledge the Barney Fife factor. "Modern firearms help raise the image of security officers and their pride in their equipment," read a news release put out by Holcomb trumpeting passage of the bill.

Doug Herbert, manager of Peak Security in Tampa, which employs 12 armed guards, said semiautomatics could be useful as a visual deterrent to criminals wanting to hold up, say, a liquor store or rob a jewelry shop. "If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.

But Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds.

Holcomb responds to criticism with a familiar refrain: "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon."

Holcomb, a father of three who lives in Largo, read the state statute 493 that governs security officers, and discovered simply changing a few words was all it took to provide for semiautomatics without a waiver.

So he decided to give it a go. "Half the people I talked to said you're never going to get it done." Holcomb estimates he spent $2,000 to mail and fax information to lawmakers and to host a Web site - www.change493.org He traveled twice to Tallahassee and testified before House committees. In all, he spent about 400 hours on the project.

State Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach, and state Sen. Carey Baker, R-Eustis, eventually sponsored the bill.

"There were a lot of hoops to jump through," Holcomb said. "If you're not part of a large consumer group or lobbying organization, it's hard to get the ear of a senator or representative. I was at the right place at the right time."

******
:D :scrutiny: :D

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Alex45ACP
July 1, 2005, 01:17 AM
:scrutiny:

joab
July 1, 2005, 01:26 AM
It's the wood grips that make the revolver a dinosaur the revolver itself is a joke
"If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.

I like this little bit of Custeresque thinkingBut Herbert foresees dangers with upgraded firepower. "If you get a guy who panics real easily, he's liable to empty a clip of 15 rounds rather than (the) six" a revolver holds. "Guns are not evil. People are evil." He added: "I don't look at this as a gun issue. This is an officer safety issue. We already have guns; we're just going to a more modern weapon." Actually I thought the article was pretty well written and nonsided

gunsmith
July 1, 2005, 02:25 AM
when it comes to security guards (I am one) flipping CALI has better laws the FLorida!!!
in CA I was able to carry any pistol above .22 that I could qualify with
.357 sig and magnum,.40,.45,9mm,.38 are all on my card.
now I live in NV and can only carry .40 and .38
but it's a work restriction not a state law.
I feel pretty good with my Glock model 22 and "standard" capacity 15 round clip plus a few spares.
Florida lets you carry allmost anything concealed but screws over armed security with their ancient stupid laws,why on earth could a guard carry a .40 OFF duty but not ON?
the FL leglislature is bizzare! :barf:
also in CALI you can carry open in a national forest ---in FL you can only pack concealed during hunting season if your hunting.
so if you just want to camp among the gators,feral pigs,bear,mountain lions
& armed drug runners meth lab techs and pot growers then you must go unarmed.
FL has it bass ackward!

38SnubFan
July 1, 2005, 04:20 AM
Here in PA the .38 Special and 9mm are MINIMUM CALIBER REQUIREMENTS to take the firearm's portion of Act 235 (PA Lethal Weapons Certification Act).

Once certified, that officer may carry any firearm above those minimum caliber requirements. Many companies that ISSUE their sidearms to officers typically use 9mm or 40 S&W, and some are even issuing .45 (Non-1911s).

I work with three guys (part-timers) who work full-time in armed security for a local college. The one typically carries a Springfield XD-357 or Browning Hi-Power .40 S&W. The other was carrying a P-Series Ruger in 9mm, but just upgraded to a P-90 (.45 ACP). The third carries his H&K USP .45 as his duty and CCW weapon.

As far as the worry of somebody "panicking" and emptying a 15-round magazine into a BG. From what I've been told by the above three officers, before you can even take the class, you must go through an extensive criminal background check, full physical, plus a psychiatric/psychological evalutation. These are done through the PA State Police and must meet their requirements, which are pretty much the same as that for a State Trooper or local-level LEO.

That, and the only people I know of that consider a security officer's job to incur less threats than that of an LEO are anti's anyway.

YMMV.

-38SnubFan

joab
July 1, 2005, 08:01 AM
Lately Fla has been reviewing and modifying many of their old laws.
The .38/110gr rule has been in effect for many many years.

I suspect that with a progun gov we will see more stupidity repealed

Since 2001 we have seen the switchblade laws eliminated and duty to retreat reexamined.

Maybe open carry in remote areas or just plain open carry will be next.

Zach S
July 1, 2005, 08:13 AM
Are there any other states which still restrict security officers to revolvers only?
North Carolina. IIRC it has to be a .32 or .38 caliber revolver.

[edit]
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_74c/gs_74c-13.html

An armed security guard firearm registration permit grants authority to the armed security guard, while in the performance of his duties or traveling directly to and from work, to carry a standard .38 caliber or .32 caliber revolver or any other firearm approved by the Board and not otherwise prohibited by law. The use of any firearm not approved by the Board is prohibited. emphasis mine - z

Hmmm, I wonder what other handguns could be approved... As a 1911 guy, I think I'd pretty much be SOL...

TarpleyG
July 1, 2005, 08:26 AM
Advocates say semiautomatics are more accurate because there is less recoil when a shot is fired and the grip is more ergonomic. The guns can also be reloaded much faster.
Obviously these 'advocates' have never fired a revolver other than a POS Charter or something and there are guys in my IDPA club that can reload an L frame about as fast as I can reload my 1911. I agree that this law is outdated and needs to be curbed but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a revolver in trained hands.

Greg

armoredman
July 1, 2005, 11:23 AM
Weird. I had to carry a Smith 64 with 158gr LRN with Well Fargo Armored, but that was a company rule - AZ couldn't care less what you carry as long as you're legal to do so.

Old Dog
July 1, 2005, 04:50 PM
"The guns are just too fast-acting and in the hands of people who have minimal training," said state Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Miami Beach, who was one of only two lawmakers to oppose the bill. "It just didn't seem right to me."

Maybe she should have just counter-proposed a law restricting criminals to using only revolvers ...

Hkmp5sd
July 1, 2005, 05:12 PM
Back when that law was created, the LEOs in Florida were all carrying .38/.357 wheelguns too and that is probably the source of the restriction. I remember talking to a local police chief back in the early 80s and him claiming his department would never go to semis while he was in charge, they were just too unreliable. For years the FBI were restricted to .38s too. I wouldn't rag on Florida's current legislature too much. They are doing more to fix stupid gun laws than almost all other states combined.

dasmi
July 1, 2005, 05:28 PM
"If they see a revolver on a guy's hip, they think it's a joke," he said.
Wow. I wonder how many people think my Service Six is a joke when it's on my hip?
See if anyone's laughing at the joke when you're staring down six rounds of .357 magnum hollow point :)

Hypnogator
July 2, 2005, 12:19 PM
Georgia used to be the same way. Don't know whether they still are, now. It was written right into the language of the private security/private detective law: Revolver of no greater caliber than .38 Special.

TMM
July 2, 2005, 12:38 PM
i heard a saying: "Don't mess with a guy who knows how to use a wheelgun"
and that is very true.

however, *I* would prefer a autochucker, but only if it's reliable. Springfield, H&K, Sig Sauer, Glock, etc. although i'd ask if i could use a .45ACP instead of 9mil. overpenetration issues and all. and maybe i'd carry a .38 snubbie as backup if i was allowed.

~TMM

David
July 2, 2005, 09:17 PM
I think that if I was one of the Florida security officers, especially those working an armored car detail, jewelry store security or highway rest-area duty, I would select a high quality 9mm.

:uhoh: :what: :uhoh:

thorn726
July 2, 2005, 09:57 PM
holy silly people wanting to maker them keep the revolver-
BUT hEY! i take offense to this-
""There's nothing wrong with the revolver," he says. "Just like there's nothing wrong with a manual transmission. But I drive an automatic.""

as if a manual is a drawback over auto= when it comes to performance, come on! manual is so much better for control..

also, this isnt all that new, i mena police only upgraded to 9mm (in most cities)
in the last 10-15 years, and before that ,they had to carry im guessing .38?

at any rate,. some cops were regulated what gun they could carry so it isnt suprising ........

ps i imagine it varies, and i could be totally wrong about the cops thing- i do know for sure it made news when the NY police got 9mm issued

joab
July 2, 2005, 10:14 PM
as if a manual is a drawback over auto= when it comes to performance, come on! manual is so much better for control.. Actually he stated that there was nothing wrong with a manual trans, but he preferred an automatic. I saw no insult to manual trans or wheel guns in his statement of personal preference

also, this isnt all that new, i mena police only upgraded to 9mm (in most cities)
in the last 10-15 years, and before that ,they had to carry im guessing .38? I don't know exactly when it was or if it was a direct result, but the cops here started switching over after the Palm Bay incident in the mid to late 80's.
At least one cop was killed because he couldn'e get his revolver loaded fast enough through the pain of being shot in the shin, gunman walked up and shot him in the head.

Many cops before that carried .357s

Hawkmoon
July 3, 2005, 12:14 AM
Georgia used to be the same way. Don't know whether they still are, now. It was written right into the language of the private security/private detective law: Revolver of no greater caliber than .38 Special.
I wonder if the law defined "greater than"?

.357 magnum isn't a larger caliber than .38 special -- it just has a bit more ooomph behind it. Same size hole in the barrel, same size hole in the paper.

joab
July 3, 2005, 01:03 AM
.357 magnum isn't a larger caliber than .38 special -- it just has a bit more ooomph behind it. Same size hole in the barrel, same size hole in the paper. This has been discussed before, in hunting with different calibers I believe.
I think the outcome was an energy equation

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