I guess caliber matters more than placement after all


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Greg L
March 20, 2003, 11:51 AM
This happened in Cincinnati yesterday but this is all that I could find on it. On the news last night they put the # at 7 shots.

Shooting in OTR

Cincinnati Police are investigating a shooting in Over the Rhine. A man was shot several times in the face at 15th and Vine. At last report, he was in critical condition.

Link (http://www.700wlw.com/jacor-common/local_news_common.html?ID=20030319180216&feed=local)

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Blackhawk
March 20, 2003, 12:02 PM
Not enough information for any such guess, Greg.... :D

Tamara
March 20, 2003, 02:04 PM
Definitely!

(Did you know that there's at least one incident of a Vietnam-era chopper pilot who has a souvenir helmet with a 14.5mm hole in each side? I'd recommend at least a 25mm Bushmaster for CCW if you want positive results...)

BamBam
March 20, 2003, 02:05 PM
I'm all for good placement but am willing to wager that a 12 ga. slug to the shoulder has more stopping power that a .22 short to the forehead.

Apple a Day
March 20, 2003, 05:15 PM
May have also been pellets of birdshot.

Chris Rhines
March 20, 2003, 05:18 PM
Luck matters more than anything.

Hitting them repeatadly in a vital area with a large-caliber bullet doesn't hurt, though.

- Chris

Quartus
March 20, 2003, 05:27 PM
Okay, puttin' on my flame attractin' myth bustin' hat again!


The face is actually a poor choice of target. Sinuses and what not can trap a bullet. Painful, but not an instant killer.


COM is the target of choice, unless body armor is suspected. Neck works better than face.

DeltaElite
March 20, 2003, 05:35 PM
I knew it all along. ;)
I have a feeling that a 10mm will clean out some sinuses, as opposed to getting caught in them.
Just what kind of mucous do you have that stops bullets Quartus? :D

Marko Kloos
March 20, 2003, 05:40 PM
Never been to Cincy, but that "Over the Rhine" neighborhood does not sound like a good place for a midnight stroll. Most anything bad I've been hearing out of that place has happened there.

cratz2
March 20, 2003, 05:48 PM
I think I'd tend to agree with BamBam... :p

It's just so unpredictable... It seems that if you don't know anything about guns or shot placement and if you never ever practice, then one round of 25ACP somewhere in the gut will kill the guy in the night club before he gets to the hospital. But if you practice 2 hours every week for 10 years and hit the the guy solidly center of mass with 8 rounds of 200 Gr +P Gold Dot 45ACP ammo, he'll stick around long enough to tell his side of the story.

The healthy human body is much more tenacious than most folks think.

Quartus
March 20, 2003, 05:58 PM
Hey, Delta, when my hay fever is acting up....


:D


Well, well! Caliber does matter after all! I would bet on a 10mm to do the job, or any of the magnums. But not all calibers are created equal, and the face is not as fragile as most people think.

And odd things happen. Like a .22 finding the optic nerve opening and going into the brain.

DeltaElite
March 20, 2003, 06:06 PM
True Quartus, the head can be a hard target. :D
I have seen several people who have had various calibers glance off of their head.
A nearby shop has a guy who took a 45acp in the forehead. I don't know if it was a hollow point or ball, but it ricocheted off of his head and into the ceiling of the building.
He suffered quite a bit of brain damage, bone shards were sent shooting into his brain, but he survived and has no deficits according to him.

Lesser calibers, such as 380acp and less have an even greater problem with deflecting.
The bullet construction also adds to this, ball ammo is more likely to deflect off of a hard target than a hollow point.
I saw many more shots deflected off of the head during my time in the ER and on ambulance.

So us hard headed people have a survival trait that others do not :D

Quartus
March 20, 2003, 06:24 PM
" and has no deficits according to him... urk to him... urk to him... urk to him... urk"

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=181929


:D


Yeah, I've read of other cases. Angle of impact counts, too.

Blackhawk
March 20, 2003, 06:49 PM
He suffered quite a bit of brain damage, bone shards were sent shooting into his brain, but he survived and has no deficits according to him.Interesting.

Any idea what his sentient condition was immediately after being shot? IOW, was he able to continue what he was doing at that moment?

chieftain
March 20, 2003, 06:53 PM
Cirillo, stated in his book, the problems with shooting at the head.
He had problems with his 38's and his partner had the same poblem with his 45.

Cirillo spent a lot of time trying to develope a bullet I think he called the "Pin Grabber" to not richochet off the skull.

On the other hand, personally I pulled a 25acp bullet out of the skull of a Burgular.

He had been beating on the old home owner when the wife fired the 25acp at him and hit him. Right at the top (Apex) of the skull.

By any standard it was a caliber failure but a successful stop. The scumbag quit beating on the old man and had just sat down and felt sorry for him self.

Of course the Scum Bag was complaining of a Migraine Headache.

But the fact is the 25acp saved that couple.

go figure.

Fred

Quartus
March 20, 2003, 07:09 PM
uh-oh. :uhoh:

blackhawk found this thread. NOW there's gonna be trouble!

shhhh. He's a big fan of shooting for the head.

With a heart of steel, a grip of iron, and eyes like laser sights, he disdains the conventional wisdom of shooting COM.


This should be interesting.

DeltaElite
March 20, 2003, 07:19 PM
Blackhawk,
He was down and out of the game. It was a negligent discharge by a pal of his also.
Just pointing out that the bullet deflected, but it did do severe damage and his survival surprised the doctors.

Don't tell anyone, but I like head shots also. Of course I have to justify not shooting center mass in my vocation. :(

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